Hassan John: Standing Strong in the Shadow of Terror

Pastor Hassan John is a Nigerian Christian leader, humanitarian, apologist, and longtime advocate for persecuted communities across Sub-Saharan Africa. Originally from Jos, Nigeria, Hassan studied Christian apologetics at Oxford and has spent years working among communities affected by terrorism, religious persecution, displacement, and poverty. Today he is based in the United Kingdom and works with the Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust (HART), founded by Baroness Caroline Cox, where his work focuses particularly on Nigeria, Sudan, South Sudan, and other vulnerable regions of Africa. In this deeply personal episode of Courageous Crossroads, Hassan joins Jeff to discuss the escalating violence facing Christian communities in Nigeria, the work of rebuilding hope and resilience among people whose villages and livelihoods have been devastated, and the remarkable faith of believers who refuse to surrender even in the face of persecution. Hassan shares stories of Christians standing firm under extraordinary pressure, Muslims encountering the Gospel and embracing Christ, and local churches responding to suffering with prayer, practical assistance, discipleship, and courageous presence. The conversation also explores Christian-Muslim dialogue, the importance of understanding one another’s worldview, and Hassan’s conviction that some of the most meaningful conversations about faith can begin simply by asking a Muslim friend what they believe about Jesus. Through it all, Hassan offers a powerful reminder that when suffering people ask, “Where is God?” Christians must also be willing to ask, “Where is the Church?”—and then have the courage to show up with truth, compassion, prayer, generosity, and the love of Christ.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

JEFF JOHNSON: Hey everybody, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. I have got a guest who’s back for his third appearance, my dear friend Hassan John. And you really need to go back and look through the archives and find the first two times he showed up on our program to share with us. Hassan is one of the bravest men I know. I mean, as are all of the men and women that I’ve had the blessing to interview here. But um what a story he has. He’s originally from Nigeria, living in London now. He’ll tell you all about that. And forgive me, but um I did want to catch you up a little bit with Hassan and how I got to know him. So I start off this interview with a little bit of that history, which is quite interesting in and of itself. He’s in town because my oldest son Noah got married, and Hassan is considered a member of the family around here, so he comes and stays with us whenever we do big-time family events like that, and it’s been a blessing to have him around. But even more of a blessing that you guys get to hear from him, and uh you’re gonna be blown away with what he has to share. So without further ado, and for the third time, here’s my dear friend Hassan John. Let me give a little introduction for our listeners. So the best way that I can put it is Hassan and I met each other in Oxford when I was studying, doing a very short course in Christian apologetics, and Hassan was there for a year, long study, with my other dear friend Justice. Hassan and Justice were there for a year, having been dispatched out of Joss, Nigeria to learn apologetics, to go back down to Nigeria and continue to disciple and evangelize and do all of those wonderful things, correct?

HASSAN JOHN: Correct. Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: And and Baroness Cox, who is a member of the House of Lords, she was appointed by Margaret Thatcher, was giving my cohort, my small cohort, there were eleven of us in my class, a tour of Westminster. So we were getting a tour of Parliament at the time, and she mentioned to our class that there are two gentlemen from Nigeria that have bounties on their heads by Boko Rome and some of these other people, and they are learning and equipping themselves with apologetics work. Oops. They’re equipping themselves with apologetics training so that they can go back down to Nigeria and continue the good fight and do the work. And she said, You need to meet these two gentlemen, you need to pray for ’em. So that’s my introduction to Hassan and to justice. And I went back to Oxford and met with both of them, said hello to them, prayed for them, as Baroness Cox had had recommended, um, as did the rest of my cohort. And we ended up becoming friends. And the first time I’m sorry, this is going long, but we got some time, so I’m gonna tell you.

HASSAN JOHN: That’s fine, that’s fine.

JEFF JOHNSON: So I knew Justice much better than I knew you, Hassan. But the interesting thing was uh you and Justice were supposed to come and stay at my house together in October of 2018. Yes. To make a long story short, my mother had been suffering from dementia and she was 75 years old and she took ill unexpectedly as a result of the dementia, and it ended up being an end of life scenario for her. She passed away the 12th of October on 2018. Justice, a couple of weeks prior, had let me know that his visa was not had not been accepted, so he was not able to come. He was the one that I knew the best. Yes. I’d barely met Hassan. Yes, but Hassan his visa came through, it was just fine. So he said, What should I do? And we all agreed, no, Hassan, you come. Yes. Again, this is before my mother got sick. Then my mother got sick, she passed away. That was an unbelievable experience because my heart was broken. Yeah, everything that goes along with a loved one passing, especially your mother. I’d been my mother’s primary caregiver, all of that sort of thing. So I ended up uh at the end of my mother’s funeral, the day my mother’s funeral was, it had been a whirlwind. And I got done with that, and I thought, okay, I’ve got one day before justice, before Hassan is gonna show up. This gentleman that I don’t know very well. And so I ended up sitting, I remember I was sitting in my car, and I thought, I can take a day to kind of get myself together and whatever, and here comes the phone ringing, and it’s Hassan, dear Jeff, where am I supposed to meet you again? He had showed up a day earlier than what he was planning on showing up. We just got our wires crossed, and I put my head in my hands and I thought, oh my goodness, I floored it, it took me 30 minutes to get to the Des Moines airport. I parked outside of the baggage claim at the Des Moines Airport. I’m sorry this is going so long, but I love this story. I parked outside of the baggage claim. I threw my car door open, I didn’t even shut it, and all they do is hassle you if you park outside there, let alone you know, keys in it, car running, door open. I walked into the baggage claim, and there’s one guy sitting at the end of the baggage claim with this little suitcase, and I walked over and just fell into your arms. And here’s what happened: Hassan ended up coming and staying with me and my family for a week. How much does God love me that He sends me a Nigerian pastor that I barely know to spend a week with me immediately after my mother passes away and ministered to me in the most loving sort of way? So ever since then, Hassan is family, and he’s been here to my house, stayed at my house several times. But anyway, I could sell a lot more, but there’s Hassan. Thanks for being here as well.

HASSAN JOHN: So look, Jeff, you’ve been a great blessing. And I mean, you never never know how much of a blessing and inspiration you’ve been to me. Thank you so much. And to be a part of your family, that’s been incredibly, incredibly honoring. Thank you. You are such a wonderful thank you, Jeff.

JEFF JOHNSON: So, yeah, so my son Noah and his wife now, Zoe. We love Zoe. So these couple are so fantastic. They got married. Uh what day is this? They got married two days ago. Yes. And we had a big welcome reception on Friday. And so Hassan has been, because he’s family, he came and graced us, and he’s been at our house for the week doing wedding stuff and loving on the family, and the family’s been loving on you, and meeting new friends, and meeting old friends, and all of that sort of thing. So we’re it’s so grateful to have you here. And you leave today, which is a little bit of a heartbreak, but

HASSAN JOHN: yeah, I live today, and uh, like I said, it’s been a fantastic week. Thank you so much. And it’s been a blessing to see Noah get get get wedded to Zoe. You know, it’s been wasn’t that beautiful. I mean, it’s just as awesome. You know, the Lord does things in just amazing and incredible ways. Incredible ways. It was I I think I I can’t remember who I whispered to. I said, it’s just like I could tell Jeff and Danielle to go and and take another vow and get wedded all over again. Oh my goodness. I mean, you you you’ve you’ve just been a great inspiration. Well, thank you.

JEFF JOHNSON: Um you’ve been such a blessing. So we got to we had a welcome reception at our house, and it the rains just came and came and came. Again, it’s you know, the Lord has such a beautiful sense of humor, and he’s so loving. Our son’s name is Noah. And so no wonder we had nothing but a flood right up until the wedding, and the flood turned out to be just a huge blessing. But the yard was a little bit wet, but all the rains stopped, and the evening was absolutely beautiful Friday evening. But we were able to get Noah and Zoe together, and then siblings around them in a close little huddle, and then parents and relatives and friends and everybody just encirculating, encirculate whatever that word is. Noah, that beautiful couple, and then Hassan prayed a beautiful blessing over them. So they are married for sure.

HASSAN JOHN: What an honor. It’s such a big blessing.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay, so now can you tell us? I gave people just a tiny little tip of the spear introduction of who you are, but can you tell us now what you’re doing? Because you’ve relocated to London.

HASSAN JOHN: Yes. So I’ve relocated to London. Now I work with a charity. It’s called Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust, that is uh in short H-A-R-T, Heart. Uh, like you like you said from the beginning, it’s established by the Baroness Caroline Cox. She’s been all over the world, really. Wherever Christians are vulnerable, persecuted, actually, just anybody that’s persecuted, she’s been there. So currently I work with the charity in London, and my area is covering sub-Saharan Africa, especially uh in Sudan and South Sudan, then Nigeria, uh, especially again where we, those communities where Christians are suffering the intense violence that we see all the time. Uh, I was just speaking with somebody in Burkina Faso just a moment ago as well. We’re exploring what we could do, trying to find out what the Christians are going through. Because in all this, uh, what we realize is the Christians have been, I mean, the persecution has created a situation where the Christians are unable to do anything, even if they wanted to. Because the policies are against them, laws are against them, and living in condition and environment is also very, very challenging. But added to that is the violence, the killings and the attacks and the kidnapping by radical Islamic terrorist groups. Uh Boko Haram, for one, then you have Islamic State in West Africa, Iswap, then you have Jin J9, that’s another radical Islamic group. J9. Yeah, it’s called J N I M I M. It’s also a massive, big radical terrorist group in the sub-Saharan region. In Nigeria, another one just popped us recently called the Lakurawa. So again, so it’s like the sub-Saharan region is now a massive breeding ground for all the terrorists that left Syria into Libya to this West African continent uh sub-Saharan continent, and they’ve now drifted now into West Africa. But Nigeria is the biggest target, and uh the Christians unfortunately are the most vulnerable.

JEFF JOHNSON: So what are the main what are the main groups that we hear about? Boko Haram.

HASSAN JOHN: Yes. You hear Boko Haram, you hear ISIL. Most of the ISIL, ISIS.

JEFF JOHNSON: ISIS, yes.

HASSAN JOHN: Yeah, but but they’ve also now what has happened is they’ve now broken down into autonomous cells. Because getting one leader, just like you had Osama bin Laden, uh they those leaders can easily be taken out. Actually, uh to the credit of the United States, I think uh Donald Trump sent in a special team, about 200 soldiers in Nigeria, uh, late last year to sometime this year, and they took out six of those terrorist groups, their leaders. Oh wow. But what has happened is I think they have morphed now into rather than having one leader, they’ve broken that into autonomous cells, yes, with a central command that is very loose, so that they can not be taken out. Uh so and each of these cells now give themselves names, they are autonomous, so they’ve devastated villages from Middle Belt, so Plateau, Nasarawa, Pl um Taraba State, Benwe State. They’ve now moved into Kogi and Kwara State. These are all in central Nigeria, and particularly Plateau, Adamao, and Taraba, and and Northeast, that’s Maiduguri, where you’ve you’ve heard about the abduction of the Chibo school girls. Yes, so there are a lot of most of those communities there are predominantly Christian. And this is where they have found, you know, the just the anarchy, the death and the destruction there is just massive. This year alone, between January and now, more than 3,500 have already been killed. Christians, predominantly Christians.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yes. Well, this is so this is amazing. And I don’t even know how to talk about this because your friend and mine, Brandon McNase, runs a ministry called Exodus 51. We’ve had Brandon on this podcast a couple of times to give updates. But his ministry, the the thing that the Lord’s laid on his heart is freeing these Christian indentured servants in Pakistan specifically, yes, and bringing people that are working and they owe money and they’re never able to get to pay their debt, to find their freedom. And Brandon is able to raise funds to go over there, pay the debt that they’re owed begrudgingly to their uh brick kiln owners, the people that don’t want to let them go, and they have to let them go because of Sharia law, because of the because of the rules of the of the faith. And then they these people are freed, and then they’re taken care of for six months afterwards to make sure that they’ve got soft skills and hard skills and housing and education, that sort of thing. It’s a beautiful ministry. But this is a picture of Christians that are being persecuted for their faith. And here in the United States, I think historically we maybe I shouldn’t be so d general or putting it, but maybe I should just talk for myself. I had a hard time thinking Christians were being persecuted again all across the globe. But they are, and you’re in that area.

HASSAN JOHN: Actually, it’s even it’s so sad that for instance, um, in Sudan, South Sudan, for instance, let’s say in the Blue Night region, all the way down to uh Nuba Mountains, human beings are sold like cattle in exchange for money. And does the world know about it? I believe it’s been tabled in the floor of the UN at one time or the other, but it’s all been dismissed. And even in Nigeria now, the killing of Christians is also now been dismissed as just caused by climate change and just fight for economic resources between Muslim uh herders and Christian farmers. So it’s just been dismissed.

JEFF JOHNSON: Other things are taken ahead of the year.

HASSAN JOHN: Every yeah, yeah, unfortunately. But rather than just simply focus and understand how intense the violence is and the forces behind it, because it is not just, you know, iron herders attacking Christian farmers. These are well-organized, sophisticated, well-trained terrorist groups that go from community to community, not just destroying and devastating and killing people, but recently, so when I say recently, I was saying the last three years, they’ve now gone into massive kidnapping and abduction and taking over a large territory. So I can give you a quick example, like in Southern Kaduna, for instance, in a place called Rijana, that’s where there’s a massive land where all the people that live in that area have already been taken over. There’s more like a pseudo-government going on there. The sad thing is these terrorists will come to any home. They could come to my home, for instance. Uh, they can gang rape my wife while I sit down and watch, go into the kitchen, pilfer and take anything they want, find anything valuable and go away. Now, if I protest, I get shot immediately. Actually, they’ve killed so many people to set the to to let everybody know that if you resist them, you get killed. And they’ve destroyed so many villages. So people have just simply surrendered to this kind of I don’t know what to call it. It’s just it’s just evil. Yeah. Now, is the Nigerian government doing something about it? To be fair, we’ll say they are trying, but the complicity of the Nigerian government in this is also, I mean, it’s just another matter for discussion. It’s it’s sad. Yeah, I know it’s been discussed a lot, um, thankfully, uh, in the in the uh in this in the House of in the Senate here and the House of Assembly in the US, and we really thank you know the the members of Congress that have raised their voices against Christian persecution and indeed a lot on the social media here. It’s been incredible support that we’ve gotten from from uh Christians in the United States.

JEFF JOHNSON: Is the catalyst for this, and again I’m making a general statement, I’m sure there’s nuances around the globe, but is the catalyst for this uh economic gain? People want land, people want resources, people want uh territory, they want that sort of or is it is it uh just a religious crusade?

HASSAN JOHN: So those looking at it from outside would easily just say, oh no, it’s just it’s just poverty, corruption, and you know, and just people looking for land. But those of us that have lived there, uh it within the context of the culture of what we understand is just strictly ideological, ridden by radical Islamic theology or mindset or ideology. Because now, so this is it, right? Um if the the let’s for the sake of argument, let’s say those that say oh it’s just economic, the issue is Nigeria as it is, is not the only place impacted by uh climate change. So why don’t you have actually all over the world? So what is the what is it in climate change that makes people take AK-47s and they attack you know other communities? But let’s also say, for the sake of argument, that even if the c the the the claim is economic economic uh reasons, the people that come to attack, or let me say the terrorist groups, they are well-funded. Where’s the money coming from? They have sophisticated weapons and machinery. I have seen rocket propelled grenade launchers, I’ve seen night vision goggles used by these terrorists. I’ve seen I mean I’ve seen these MGN, you know, 19 millimeter uh weapons that are used in these areas. And they are not, these are just random shooting, like these well-targeted, actually, sniper rifles with the with the with the laser pointers have been used in those areas. They are not cheap.

JEFF JOHNSON: So they’re coming from somewhere.

HASSAN JOHN: They are coming from somewhere. Somebody is funding them, somebody is sustaining that terrorism, but particularly focused on this particular region and this part of the country. So there is an agenda behind this that is very clear. There is also funding, there is also training, and there is serious mapping with the with the with an intent to cause damage or to wipe out a community. And as I speak to you, now more than 300 communities and villages have already been wiped out. Is the world have uh uh uh uh is has this been brought to the world to see what is going on? Yes, it’s been mentioned, it’s been dismissed. I know the UK Parliament in January 2020 did raise the question on whether there was a genocide happening in Nigeria. But of course, there was a massive pushback from the Islamic community and unfortunately from some Western governments as well. And the pushback is oh well, you can’t say it is genocide, you have to define genocide. So we’ve spent Jaff will spent six years defining whether the killings are genocide or not, rather than stopping the killings. That’s just sad. In the meantime, people are still being killed. Oh, yeah. I mean, so they they want to know whether it meets the parameters of genocide while the killings are still going on.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: Every year, an average of six thousand are killed. But yes, and if you want, depending on which figures you’re looking at, at how many Christians are killed in Nigeria today, I think it goes between 70, 150 to 350,000 Christians. But again, it depends on which is a tremendous number.

JEFF JOHNSON: And this is what your ministry is as a part of heart to go into these devastated areas and see what you can do.

HASSAN JOHN: Yes, so what we’re trying to do as much as possible is uh in addition to just bring emergency relief and uh helping provide uh skills and training. But I think ultimately as Christians, what we want to do and what we’re doing now is to is to help uh encourage resilience and faith. Because the idea is to destroy the people’s hope, destroy everything and just and just just break them down. So they either convert to Islam or they do any other thing. But they can’t be Christians. That’s just the point because Christianity seems to be the end the major enemy. But what we are doing is to uh to let them see God in all this tragedy. Now it’s a different difficult thing to do for ones who is not a Christian to understand how do you how do you even talk about God in in all this crisis and tragedy? But indeed, those of us that have been in the fields, that have been there, that have been impacted one way or the other, we’ve seen God work in amazing ways, miraculous ways, incredible ways, that every day, rather than being broken down, our faith grows minute by minute because we’ve seen God at work, even in the midst of this. Is there evil? Yes. Are people going to be destroying and killing? Yes, they will, because they are drawing on an ideology. Because if not ideological, how do you explain somebody just getting men and women gang raping but then killing and killing in the most despicable way that I can’t even mention here? Very graphic. And and they just walk away. You know, they they they actually they celebrate it. Now, if you go and On Facebook or YouTube, and you you just type anything to do with attacks in Nigeria or bandits or anything, you you’ll be amazed to see this terrorist groups posting their atrocities on TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook. And they are not they’re the thing is they are not even hiding it. Yeah. And you could see young radical Islamic boys that have been radicalized between the ages of 13 to maybe 25, 26, with AK 47s and flounting the the the ransom they collect from from poor Christian communities when they kidnap their family members.

JEFF JOHNSON: So what kind of what kind of effect does heart have? What kind of effect do you have? Because it feels like because it feels like the problem is so massive. Yes. It’s on a biblical scale. And you could say at one point, look, this is not going to stop because it’s in the scriptures, you know, these people are at each other. Yeah. Yet we’re called as Christians to pray. And we know that that’s such a powerful thing.

HASSAN JOHN: Indeed.

JEFF JOHNSON: But I have so many people that are working in difficult areas like you are, where they say, Thank you very much for your prayers. Now could you come bring a helicopter and get this family out of here because they’re being massacred? Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: So what kind of effect Yeah, see, so those things are there. But so what we’ve decided to do, especially from my end and with a group of pastors and Christians leaders, what we thought to do is to say, Hey, look, as much as the killings are going on, but we could’ve we just can’t sit down there and just continue to try to appeal to the government to do something because we know, I mean, Nigerian security agencies have their own issues and challenges that don’t even want to go there because of all the the mess that’s there, those that are either complicit or those that are sympathizers, or actually those that are funding the crisis to go ahead. So that is there. But the counter-cultural approach we’ve decided to do was can we organize Christians to now go with love, with the with with the gospel and try to give these young men and young women an alternative narrative to what they know? Yes, they may have been radicalized, yes, they must have been thinking about what let’s say the Islam they think is the way forward because they have been killing also moderate Muslims. Anybody that doesn’t fit into what they want, the person is fair again and they kill the person. So what we’ve decided to do was is it possible to reach and at least attempt to give them an alternative narrative? And Jeff has been amazing. In the last, I will argue, in the last five or six years, there have been close to about six thousand different prayer groups, communities, churches that have emerged. My group alone, we have recorded between 500 and 750 Muslims that have converted to Christ. Those that are fed up with the violence, those that have seen that the violence, as much as it’s been played on the ideology of radical Islam, they’re not seeing that it’s it that it’s just a hopeless thing. So in northern Nigeria, amazing things are happening. Actually, not just in northern Nigeria, we’ve we’ve moved into the neighboring country like Chad and Niger and Northern Cameroon. And in northern Cameroon, actually, even now, there are three churches that they are they are begging to say, can you find anybody to come and disciple us or send us a pastor? On their own, they’ve built a mud hall where they meet us as Christians and they’re looking for roofing sheets just to start a worship. Within within we’re talking about predominantly Muslim communities. Wow. Yes. So it’s been it’s been awesome what the Lord is doing. Within the persecuted church, I mean Christians, for instance. I will argue that I’ve not heard anyone, anyone that has said, oh, this is too hard. Where is God in this? And uh no, I don’t want to be a Christian anymore. Or I have I have to convert to Islam. I’m sure you would have heard, and if maybe if you check online, there’s this story of Leah Sharibu, the little girl who was abducted at about 14 or 15, and she was the only Christian among a hundred Muslim girls that will not give her faith convert.

JEFF JOHNSON: Say her name again.

HASSAN JOHN: Leah. Lia Sharibu.

JEFF JOHNSON: Leah Sharibu. Can you spell that?

HASSAN JOHN: Yes, Leah is L-E-A-H. Sharibu is S-H-E-R-I-B-U.

JEFF JOHNSON: S-H-E-R-I-B-U.

HASSAN JOHN: Yes, she’s all over. The laws have been written about on the internet.

JEFF JOHNSON: Google that and find out the courage of somebody. Okay, please continue.

HASSAN JOHN: And even to on the back of that, uh, if you remember the 276 Chibuk school girls that were abducted by Boko Haram in April 2014, many of them that came back or escaped, let me say their captors, when even though in captivity they were forced to do the Islamic rites and prayers, when they came back, the first thing I’m I’m in touch with about four of them. Now, the first thing they did was they asked to be baptized. They wanted to go to just get back to church.

JEFF JOHNSON: Right.

HASSAN JOHN: They didn’t come back with that bitterness, oh, we’ve been in this. And they’ve seen the other fellow girls killed by Boko Haram. But when they came back, it wasn’t Lord God, where were you in this? Oh, you know, we’ve been abandoned by God. No. They weren’t angry. They just came back in needle and they just wanted to connect with the Lord because they knew that in their captivity, the Lord had preserved their lives. They have now come back to see their parents. Yes, some of them came with because, of course, with the rape and everything, they came back with kids, but they love these children. They will not they will not abandon these kids because their fathers were terrorists or whatever it was.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: So we have this community that will provide support, assistance. But this is the this is the point I’m making, Jeff, that when people are in hardship or they are facing persecution and they ask, Where is God in this, or where is God in my sovereign? Perhaps the question they are asking is, Where is the church? Because the Lord has given us, you remember in Isaiah 6 when Isaiah was in that temple and there was a conversation going on with the Lord and the host of heavens, and said, Who shall we send? Who will go for us? And he said, Here am I, send me. Send me. I want to be your representative in this to carry your message. I mean, I’m no, I’ve maybe seeing this out of context in Isaiah, but the point is, the point I’m trying to make is that Isaiah said, I want to be the person there. Let me carry that. No matter how difficult it is, let me carry the message.

JEFF JOHNSON: That’s what the Lord’s looking for.

HASSAN JOHN: Then you go to Matthew, where Jesus Christ said, When I was in prison, you visited me. When I was, you know, hungry, you fed me. But he says, You fed me, not that you fed those that were persecuted or vulnerable or attacked. He said, You did that to me. In other words, what the Lord is saying is if you are there on my behalf, they will feel my love, they will feel my compassion, they will know that I’m there with them as well. So we’ve tried, you know, to always be there. Always be there. That’s beautiful. As much as we are there, the people do not ask we are his God because we’re, I mean, we are humans, we are their brothers and sisters, but they feel his impact, they feel his love, and so they know that the Lord is with them.

JEFF JOHNSON: It’s a it’s a global problem, it’s a violent problem. Whenever people talk about it, of course, in the media, it’s made hyperbolic, yeah, even more intense. Yeah. So that that makes it even more extreme. But it really does come down to the point, and I’m glad that you made it, that it starts with you. It does. It does. What is the Lord telling you to do? What can you provide? How can you provide it?

HASSAN JOHN: Exactly, exactly. Because so that’s why, you know, that’s why I said we’re building resilience. Honestly, having been in the in the villages in Nigeria for all these years, even when I was going into, I mean, undergoing that intense pressure myself, all I needed, all I needed was somebody to say to me, Hassan, it will be well. The Lord is there with you, and we’ve been praying for you. That’s all many people love to hear. And it goes that hope. It does go home. Yes, it gives you hope to keep going because what these persecutors want to do is to break your resilience, destroy your faith, either violently or subtly. So in in Africa, it will be violently, but hey, in the West it’s very subtle in every way. The work culture. You can’t do this, or you can’t say that, or you don’t carry your cross, or we don’t want to have your Bible here, or you could do it elsewhere, do it in your bedroom, but don’t bring it here. Keep it. So the idea is to distance you from what you love and the God that created you. They don’t want it in the public space. So subtly in the West, uh I’m from London. Uh, that I live in in Swindon, in London, and it’s the same thing all over UK. Uh the the that God thing is offensive to so many people. So they try to they they there’s this thing about trying to to beat you to beat you down so that you don’t bring it into space. Every other thing can come in. That’s the irony. Every other thing. You could be satanic, you could be demonic, you can carry anything. I mean, you could carry any badge and any flag. Nobody complains, but bring out the cross, then automatically it becomes an offense.

JEFF JOHNSON: Isn’t that interesting? And shouldn’t that tell us something? Because that’s the thing that really has the power. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You wouldn’t be afraid of any of those other things.

HASSAN JOHN: No, that’s it. But yeah, so that’s that’s what we do in Africa. So hard, what we try to do is just to say, hey guys, and and indeed, you know, to be fair, or rather, let me say, actually, let me use this opportunity, Jeff, to say a big gratitude to all the Christians that have been praying for Nigeria. And honestly, if I have to say anything, is to say thank you for being on your knees, praying, because when you are on your knees, we are standing strong up there. Yeah, the moment you stop being on your knees, then we will fall. Because we realize the power of those prayers. Yes, a lot of charities are working in Nigeria, they are doing everything, providing support, materials, funds, and everything. That’s true. But ultimately, this is it, right? When somebody sends a little fund from here, even if it is just one dollar, it is not the fact that you’ve bought a mosquito net or it’s just or you’ve bought a cup of rice or whatever it is. What that has done is it has helped to restore the dignity of that person in Nigeria, that that same dignity that has been destroyed by the persecution.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: Because I’ve been to refugee camps where a woman had to leave that camp at night and be out there as a prostitute, you know, sleep with any other person just to get money to buy that cup of rice that she needs to feed her kids in that camp.

JEFF JOHNSON: Wow.

HASSAN JOHN: So with that cup of rice, she doesn’t have to go and sleep with anybody. How does she even explain that to her kids? Right. So it’s just restoring that dignity, building that resilience, giving them hope. And that’s what we do all the time. So, like I said, it’s it’s it’s a big gratitude for all the prayers we’ve received, and then indeed for all the the help that is coming into the Christian communities.

JEFF JOHNSON: Look up, look up on this podcast the two other times that we’ve heard from Pastor Hassan John and hear some more of those in-depth stories about what’s gone on in Nigeria and the things that he’s been involved with, because um you’ll really understand a heart of courage, and that’s why we’re not gonna specifically address that issue on this podcast because we’ve already covered it. Uh one of the most courageous men I know. I want to know this though. What and I’m not trying to make a political statement about Donald Trump or Democrats and Republicans and Netanyahu and any of the other things, but I am curious what your mind is on the United States military involvement with Iran and also our involvement with Israel. I my my personal opinion is, and I’m and I’m a little I don’t want to say I’m agnostic on the whole issue. I’m agnostic on a lot of elements of the issue because I don’t understand them fully enough yet, and I know enough to keep my mouth shut. But my feeling is there’s enough bad stuff to go around, and a lot of people are culpable with a lot of things. But from a from a pastor from Nigeria, somebody’s involved with that kind of ministry work, yeah, dispatched out of London. What what am I supposed to know from you about what’s going on in Iran and Israel and the United States?

HASSAN JOHN: No, I think so. Um there are two perspectives to this. One is if you look at the step back and look at the big picture. Uh the big picture here, I mean when you look at the world globally and you say the next 10, 15, 20, 30 years, actually for our children, our grandchildren, what is the world going to look like? Now, a lot of people do not know. Um, at the risk of sounding like a, you know, like one of these theorists that we’re throwing up and down, the fact of the matter is you just need to step back to see that the blocks are shifting, generally globally speaking. And what I mean by that is there is the push by certain blocks for dominance to take over, to dominate, either for political reasons or for economic reasons. Now, in Africa, we’ve seen that predominantly with the Islamic world and the Islamic community. Now, that whether that is good or bad is not for me to say. I’m not I’m not saying whether whatever Saudi Arabia, Iran, Qatar, you know, United Arab Emirates and whatever they’re doing. I mean, it’s business, it’s global, so that’s fine. What I’m saying, therefore, is this this push for dominance in Africa that is ideological, of not not compromise and working together, but of by political takeover. And take over therefore means there’s this push, either subtly or violently, to introduce the dominance of Islam. And this comes into this call for Sharia law in communities, Sharia law in that, sharia law in that. Yes, people have the right to want certain types of governance or legal system or whatever within their communities, which is fine. But if it remains just within your community, that is fine. But when you want to push it to make it a national thing, and because you are pushing your own agenda, then it becomes a problem. Now, that is the one part that I mean if you step back. Now, to zero in on the second level, the second level, therefore, is is where in Nigeria, for instance, we’ve seen the evil that we’ve seen from Iran. Because the the Shiite ideology has driven and risen and it brought up radical Islamic groups that are very, very radical. Their mindset on the Quran and other things is way, way up there. They actually gave birth to um Muhammad Yusuf, who eventually started Boko Haram because he was uh one of the I’ll say the students of the Shi’ite cleric in Zaria and uh in northern Nigeria before he moved to Meduguri, and he was part of those that formed the Sharia law in Borno State. Against the whatever it was the secular system that we have, but eventually, now with his problem with the Nigerian army and the police, he got killed, and then I mean it’s a different story today. Now, the point I’m making is that that global influence that is coming from nations like Iran, you know, getting proxies all over the place is what we’ve seen. And if you look at what has happened in the Middle East, the proxies are there in Yemen, they are there in uh in the Middle East, whether you look at what they’re doing in Lebanon or what they’re doing in Palestine, in Gaza, and the rest of them, they are just all over the place. Why would Iran want to have those ones all over the place? Why not concentrate in your country, build, give your country an amazing, incredible future, get your men to be intellectually sound to build their nation. Why would you want to send all these terrorist groups all over the world? The issues, what do you want to achieve? You know, and you could say that for for I don’t know which other countries would send uh terrorist groups like that. Look at what is happening to Afghanistan. So when you step back and you look at the agenda, therefore, in my opinion, you find that that there is something at play here. And it is both violent in terms of the radical terrorist groups that have emerged, but also subtle in the communities and what they fund in our cities and our and our and our states, and which is what I think we need to be wary of and be aware of and begin to ask questions. Yes, it’s good to go for a pro whatever movement and you you protest evil, and we should protest evil, but at the same time we must step back and say, who are the organizers? Where are they coming from? What are they doing? What do they want to achieve? Because we know, I don’t think in our in our civilized community today, anybody wants anybody to be destroyed just you know for no reason. The law and the governments have you know their their places. The law must take its course, and we allow the law to take its course. We get people to do what they need to do, but when there are movements, then we begin to you know pay a little more attention to find out where are they coming from, who is sponsoring what, because the world today is infiltrated, you know, by by other nations coming into our own nations, and that becomes a problem. Now, I don’t know if I’ve answered your questions, but let me come back to what you said. The issue now is with what Donald Trump has done with Iran, I I will argue that, of course, in Nigeria we are very pleased, and I would argue that I think a lot of the Muslims that have this that I’ve interacted with are excited with the destruction of the uh nuclear uh you know arsenal that that Iran is trying to build.

JEFF JOHNSON: Especially the Muslims are.

HASSAN JOHN: Oh, the Muslims are, yeah, very, very much. Look, I don’t know about international politics, but I I would say if I was in Saudi Arabia or anybody, I’ll be happy. I don’t want my neighbor, you know, especially with people like the late Ayatollah and everybody flaunting their muscles and look out the destructions they’ve done to their own people. Yeah. It’s it’s how do you even do that? Kill a hundred thousand of your own people.

JEFF JOHNSON: Right.

HASSAN JOHN: So that I think that tells us a lot of things without even going into any more details in this. But I think I think if we look at the global politics and the power play, uh, there are certain times that we need to we need to pay attention to what is going on, uh, whether we like Netanyahu or not, his is his is an existential problem. And Israel has always had its existential problem. Does he need to fight back with everything he has? Yeah. Does he need to go after his enemies? I would go after them. I mean, I mean, history has shown again and again that we have done that. So it’s nothing new.

JEFF JOHNSON: So it makes sense. I mean, the the Americans, just like in World War II, you know, what does it take for the United States to get involved with World War II? It’s not our issue that Germany is doing this, that, and the other until it became their example. Exactly.

HASSAN JOHN: Exactly. So this is this is rightly our argument. Yes. Now let me, again, speaking like a Nigerian and from looking from outside, you see, nations like Nigeria have their have their uh I would say we were built on the goodwill and the support of the United States of America, either as a church in Christian. I went to a secondary school that that was that was uh supported by the uh by the Baptist Convention here. I think the Southern Baptist Convention, if I’m not mistaken, uh in Baptist High School in Joss, Nigeria, right? Yes, I didn’t pay fees. Most of the in fact, almost all the first generation of the Nigerian leadership from 1960 to the 80s were trained by missionary schools to give us the educational structure that we have.

JEFF JOHNSON: You’re a Nigerian native that went to a Nigerian school that was funded by an American church.

HASSAN JOHN: Exactly. That’s the point I’m making. Yeah, the influence has been there, it’s been historic. Yeah, the Christian community in the US has had a tremendous impact, not just in religion and Christianity in churches and worship, but in the life of the development of a nation called Nigeria. Yes, it can be argued, of course, there are others like those that came from Europe, which is which is true. Uh, but when when we come to trying to build a civilized society away from our traditional African cultural practices, I will argue that yes, um, I mean, you you can’t. So we’ve had this, our umbilical code is already tied to what the Christians have done here. And they’ve they’ve brought this freedom, this liberty, which is what now is being threatened, has been destroyed. Now the question is with the modern phase of the destructions that we are facing, and to be honest, 9-11 changed the entire world. And it changed us also in Nigeria because while 9-11 happened on the 9th, we started our the massive crisis that started in JOS started on the 7th of that same month, 7-11. Oh, wow. Where over 2,000 people were killed in Plateau State in Joss. Then 9-11 happened two days later, but the journey has been a wild wind till today. We’ve been facing the same radical Islamic terrorist groups. We’ve been, you know, communities have been destroyed. So many things have happened in the in those in those years till today. Now, the question is if we have to turn to anybody for help, who do we turn to? It’s the US. You know, as much as yes, we’re not asking, or rather, is nobody in Nigeria saying the US should come into another proxy. War in Nigeria and you know try to, you know. But what we’re saying is you must ask our government hard questions. US has been supporting the Nigerian army and training and counter-terrorism and every other thing, and with funding, with weaponry equipment and everything. The issue is why is there no impact? Our leaders must be called to account. There must be sanctions, yes, there must be sanctions. There must be look, there there are there there must be sanctions for all these things that are going on. You can’t kill 3,000 people in 2026 and it’s as if nothing has happened.

JEFF JOHNSON: Right. Right. Wow. So the perspective is really it’s not, I wouldn’t say it’s as much dependence, you know, from like a helpless perspective, but you look to where the real help can come from and the real power and the real support. Yeah. Because that’s been historic.

HASSAN JOHN: Yeah. Yes. So so like what we’re saying now for Christians in Nigeria, for instance, no, it’s not the dependence thing, or it’s not we’re saying, hey, you know, come help us. We’re not playing the pity card so that we get funding, we get money. No. We’re saying we want to breathe, we want some breathing space, we want to, we want a fair game, we want the structures where people should just simply be allowed to live their lives. That’s all. That’s what the Christians are asking for. That’s why I said with heart, we are building that resilience and that capacity. Because the people, the Christians have the capacity to grow. They will grow their own food, they’ll provide for themselves, they’ll educate their children. But when you have government policies that are discriminatory, when you insist that it has to be sharia law, when you say the politics must be a Muslim must be the one in charge of a particular agency, government agency, whether he’s qualified or not, or he must be this, it must be, it must be Islam, Islam, rather than think of productivity, skills, capacity, you are thinking you’re thinking religion.

JEFF JOHNSON: Right.

HASSAN JOHN: And it does not matter, and like I said, it’s it’s already on Facebook. If you go to Facebook and you listen to what Islamic clerics in Nigeria are saying, a lot of them are saying, oh, things like, I’d rather have a dog, you know, uh, a Muslim dog to have the best Christian in any in any uh government agency. They’re not hiding it.

JEFF JOHNSON: The hate speeches are there on YouTube So when you see so when you see what’s going on in some American communities where Islam is kind of starting to rise up and radicalize and that sort of thing, you must be either extremely worried or scratching your head or very, very worried because we’ve been there many years ago.

HASSAN JOHN: The issue is the issue is nobody is forcing any Muslim not to practice their religion. They are free to do so. Right. But you can’t insist that it must be the part of everybody’s life. You can’t have it your own way. You see, the problem we have experienced with Islam in Nigeria is the Islam does not integrate. It is it it clusters within itself, it perpetuates.

JEFF JOHNSON: We’re not coming to be a part of many. No, no, no, no. We’re coming. It is us.

HASSAN JOHN: It is us, and you must do what we want. There is what is haram, there is what is halal, we will not eat your food, your slaughters, if the if the goat is not slaughtered in the way we want it, so it cannot be eaten. And it shouldn’t also be in the market, or it shouldn’t be this. If if it is not the way we want it, then it is no other way. Rather than the the integration of saying, look, I know you are different from me, but I respect you. You know, I dignify you, I honor you for who you are. And I want you to do the same to me. You honor me. Yes, we will have our conflicts, but even in those conflicts, we find ways to resolve. I mean, human beings will always have conflicts. Well, I have conflicts with my wife and you know, with my kids, but that’s not a different thing. But the thing is, I think generally what we are asking is to say, how do we honor one another and appreciate one another? Not the hate, not the push. But unfortunately, from the very little I know about the Quran, very little I must say, it would seem that Christianity, Jesus, and Christ are perhaps the enemy. I don’t know. Because it’s like I don’t know any other religion that has taken the person of Jesus Christ and has made it as part of their religion to accept or to deny, to eject or to refuse or to, you know, that kind of a thing. Right. So that’s that’s where I think part of the problem is. And I will argue that Islam needs reform, but it’s not for me to say, it’s for the Muslims to look at themselves and look inwards. Because, okay, the com the problem is this, right? The way the card is being played is if you say anything as a Christian about Islam or about the Quran, you’re quickly run into trouble. So whatever is happening to you, you are expected to just simply tolerate it. Right? Now, if you as a Christian say something, anything, you are Islamophobic, you’re anti-Islam, you are throwing hate speech, and you are against Islam. Now, whatever they do that is bad, they wouldn’t correct it. Why? Because it’s done against an infidel, so that’s fine. Now, when things are done horribly against you, what happens therefore should be if Muslims are saying Islam is being given a bad name, then they should sit down among themselves and call themselves to order and discuss these things about themselves and say, How do we solve this? They do not expect anybody else to do it. But look, this is the trick, right? If anything goes wrong, they wouldn’t want to fix it, they would want the US or anybody to come in and try to fix the problem so that when things go wrong, they say, Oh no, it’s not us, it’s the US, you know, or it’s them. You know, but why don’t you solve your own problems? If Islam is getting a bad name, well, you solve it. It’s your you you it’s your people.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: Because look at the globe today. Let me also come back to Africa, Nigeria, particularly where I come from. A lot of the crisis is still within that same belt, that same Islamic community. The poverty is still within the Muslim community. The hatred, the the the lack of progression and development is still within that. But the problem is rather than saying how do we build our capacity in our society, somebody else is pointed as the as the cause of all the damage inwards. Oh, it is the Christians there. Oh, they’ve taken over everything. Oh, they’ve done this, that’s why we are where we are today. So that card has been played again and again, both locally and internationally, unfortunately. So, of course, the idea, therefore, is the US will become fatigued in trying to in trying to solve every problem, and it shouldn’t.

JEFF JOHNSON: Right.

HASSAN JOHN: The thing is to just simply focus where the problem is, and I will argue that the attack on Iran is where the problem was, and I think Donald Trump got that right. Now, what happens after that? I do not know the politics, I do not want to get involved with it. Uh because I don’t understand it, but that but that um the myth has been broken to seem that uh it is that country is invincible and is untouchable. I think that myth has been broken.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: And so I think we want a better world.

JEFF JOHNSON: You feel like that’s been a little destabilized?

HASSAN JOHN: I think it’s been massively destabilized. Massively. Will there be a regime change that people are suspecting? Nobody knows. I think what will happen is at least even within Iran, from the few friends that I have, at least there is a little hope that somehow, somewhere, maybe not immediately, but going down the line, things will change. Yeah. We had expected it to happen almost immediately, but of course it wouldn’t, because if you were living in Iran, where 100,000 people have been butchered, you wouldn’t want to stick your neck out for another revolution. And you are not sure, you know, because the the mafia group, you know, the the the army is still in charge. Now, with time, we’ll see what happens.

JEFF JOHNSON: Do you think there are Christian groups operating in Iran?

HASSAN JOHN: Um massively, amazingly. The church is growing in Iran like wildfire. And I suspect, I suspect that was why there was that massacre. Because the idea was where was this coming? Because it took even the Iranian government uh completely by storm, despite the shutdown on the internet and everything that was going on, but there was communication, there was a massive movement. So perhaps, rightly or wrongly, they must have thought that oh it’s the Christians that are I don’t know, it’s just my guess. I’m just speculating here. In an attempt to get stifled, you’d be willing to just wipe everybody out. I’m just speculating here. But you see, the mindset of that kind of a regime as well is if they declare that it is a jihad, anybody that is killed in that place is not a loss to do. So that’s the mindset. Like if a Muslim is killed in anything they feel is an enemy to the religion, they think it’s a jihad. So that person’s death is not a loss, the person goes to paradise, unfortunately. But that’s the mindset. So but we out here are worried about it. We see the figures, we see the statistics, we see the women and children killed, and we feel so terrible about it. But does the Muslim in there who’s involved in this feel that way? I don’t think so. So each time you want to talk to any Muslim about anything, always ask that you whatever word you pick, you discuss it in context. You ask what they mean. Because when you talk about love as a Christian, and the Muslim also mentions the word love, you both don’t are not talking about the same thing. You have to put it in context. What does he mean and what do you mean? If you’re talking about tolerance, or you’ve taken up actually the important thing is if you’re talking about peace, the issue is what do you mean? Yeah, don’t assume that you’re saying, Oh, we’re not.

JEFF JOHNSON: That’s such a good point because you know a Christian worldview and a Muslim world worldview are different. Completely. And so how do you, if the worldview is the lens in which I view the world, how are you ever going to be able to have that conversation? And you would have to go back and just define every okay. I say I say peace. What do you mean by peace?

HASSAN JOHN: Yeah, you have to, you always, it’s always important to ask the question. When the Muslim says he wants peace, you say, What do you mean? Because if I say I want peace as a Christian and a Muslim says, Oh yes, I want peace too, we are definitely not talking about the same thing.

JEFF JOHNSON: Definitely. Because his peace could be simply assimilated.

HASSAN JOHN: Yeah, submission, tolerance, and uh, yeah, just let me do whatever I want to do as long as you don’t cross this red line.

JEFF JOHNSON: I have I have oh, I could think of half a do a dozen or more Muslim friends, lovely people, wonderful. How do I how do I talk to them about faith? How do I breach that subject? You know, my the the Bible says iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. So it calls me into community, conversation, dialogue, that sort of thing. But sometimes I think we’re trained to be I’m speaking for myself again, trained to be fearful of even saying anything.

HASSAN JOHN: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: And I and I’m and I’m stuck in that way. And I and I don’t want to do that. I want to be able to share my opinions and hear theirs.

HASSAN JOHN: No, honestly, Muslims are amazing, incredible good people. Amazingly, and they they they want to hear, they want to listen. What I’ve realized is, I mean, despite all the challenges and the tragedies and the problems that are going on, like I said, we now have uh more than 500 converts to 750 converts that are Muslims. It’s that Muslims they they want to know, they want to hear. Unfortunately, I will argue that 70 to 70, maybe 80% of them do not even understand their Quran. Yes, they they memorize it. Uh, we use the word we use in Nigeria is they cram it, which means you just cram it. Yes, you just you just memorize it. Yeah, and then uh you understand a few things here and there. Yes, you are told you read the hadith, but you also need the prophets or rather the Imams to interpret what certain elements of the Quran are saying or what the hadith is saying. Again, depending on which, whether you are Shi’ad or you’re Muslim, sorry, you are Shiad or you are you are uh Sunni, or again, whether it depends on which which train of of the sect you you you come from. But I think ultimately um most Muslims, apart from the ones that just most Muslims would want to be argumentative rather than listen to you because there is already a defense mechanism that has been built by the by the orientation and I would say by the indoctrination in Islam. Right from kids, I I grew up in northern Nigeria, even though I was from a Christian background, but we were forced to go to Arabic schools, and I know what we were taught in those Arabic schools. Um, of course, the the the stereotype is Christianity is uh is how do you say adulterated, the Bible is corrupted. So we’ve introduced a three-god, Father, son, and holy spirit, even though we claim that there is only one God, which is false. Jesus didn’t resurrect from the this day. So how could we say, and Jesus somehow, after the crisis in Palestine, ran away and got married, and so so those are all the yeah, yeah, these are all the stereotype answers you get from any Muslim. And he begins to you know cherry peak on the on the gospel to tell you how bad the corrupt the Bible is. But I think bottom line, um, meeting with Chris Muslims is to just simply discuss issues of what they believe in their own Quran. What do they know?

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.

HASSAN JOHN: For you as a Christian, you want to know what the Quran says about Jesus Christ. And I think it’s a beginner for any conversation. Most Muslims will be very happy to tell you what they say.

JEFF JOHNSON: And you interact with them all the time.

HASSAN JOHN: I do, all the time. To just simply say, hey, look, I know you have uh an Nabi Issa or you have Jesus Christ in your in your in your Quran. What do you think of him? What does he say? Because in my Bible, this is what he says when he talks about love. What does he say when he says that in your Quran? It’s just a conversation, yeah. Yeah, it’s just to say, okay, um of all as much as there is this again uh image of women that you have in the Quran, but there’s the Quran itself talks about Mary, um, who’s the mother of Jesus, uh, even though it’s distorted in the Quran, but at least it’s it’s a conversational, uh, it’s a starter. What do you think about it what do you think about Maryam? What has he said about Maryam? Yeah, you know, where does it go from that? How what is her status, you know, in the Quran as it is in the Bible? Yeah, but ultimately, so this is the interesting part. Ultimately, the Quran says Jesus Christ will come back again, and he will come to judge, even though the Quran says he will come to tell us all Christians that we’ve we’ve missed the point, uh, we should have gone all back to Islam. But the point is Jesus Christ will come back again for whatever reason. So the Quran admits that. So that’s also another point of discussion.

JEFF JOHNSON: It’s interesting that that’s there. Yes, that he’s gonna come back and tell you all that.

HASSAN JOHN: Yes, he’ll just come tell you that you’re all wrong. You know, and of course, there’s this interpretation of the of the of the Quran, or rather the hadith or whatever the Islamic scholars put it to say that, oh, right from Adam, uh the creation, uh, Adam was a Muslim and he’s been that, and you know, it does not matter whether what interpretation interpretation is right or wrong, because Adam couldn’t have been a Muslim if Muhammad introduced it just a couple of hundred of years back now.

JEFF JOHNSON: So I think it’s I think it’s uh now this is just me making a just making a broad statement, but I think it’s dangerous for people when they get when they get pigeonholed and they’re stuck with other people that simply agree and believe the same things that they believe. Well, i y you could say that’s not bad if everybody believes what’s true. Yeah. But when I’ve traveled the world and I’ve been blessed to be able to go to a lot of places and get close to a lot of people that are different skin tones than me, they have different ethnic backgrounds than I do, they’re different socioeconomic demographics, they’re different faiths. I it helps me sharpen what I really believe in when I hear what other people believe in too. And I’m and I so long for those conversations. So I’m glad that you’re encouraging me and everybody else that’s listening here too to have those conversations with people that have a different faith. Why not? What do you think about this? What do you believe about this? Yeah, yeah. Um okay, where’s your next adventure, Hassan?

HASSAN JOHN: So I travel to Nigeria in October.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay.

HASSAN JOHN: Uh, there are some communities that we need to visit. I did mention earlier on that some of these villages have been, I don’t know what what to use. I would say they’ve been enslaved uh with those Christians that are in those areas that is controlled by these radical terrorist groups. We want to reach them as much as possible, advocate for them with the Nigerian government and the army, and see how do they break that that uh chalk hold in those communities and get those people out and liberated. Uh, it’s going to be a difficult thing to do, but yeah, we’ll be there. So, yeah, ultimately is again to just reach as much as possible to try to find solutions, local solutions on the ground where people are able to do what their capacities are, how they can be empowered to solve their own problems. So that’s what we’ve been working on uh continuously. We have very good ideas of what we want to do. Actually, most Nigerians that are suffering persecution they have a good idea of how they want to get it done. It’s just that they lack the capacity. So when I say capacity, I mean, for instance, villages in the last two weeks, uhdi and Bokos and Mongu, particularly Mbarikin Ladi and Mongu, have been attacked by uh just terrorist groups. Actually, one of my friends uh showed the attack, he posted it on his Facebook with a drone as the village was being attacked and you could hear the gunshots. Oh my god so the idea is uh as much as the army uh has been so stretched thin in trying to help this situation, the issue is how do you mobilize the local community to uh come in as a vigilante group? I know the word vigilante sounds like they are uncontrolled and whatever, but the need you need a local security operators on the ground to provide early warnings, to be able to move women and children out of harm’s way, to be able to communicate immediately and to just do something. So that’s what uh we are hoping that we’ll be able to mobilize those local communities and the youth in those villages to do because look, we’ve been in this war zone for almost 20 years now, and we can’t keep doing the same thing and getting the you know just bad results. So we need to change tact and be able to see how we can do and help those communities.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, you’re a mighty man of God, Hassan John. And so all the people that are listening to this podcast, you need to Google Baroness Cox, Google Heart, H A R T, Google that organization in London, Google Hassan John, find your way to what Hassan is doing to see if the Lord wants you to help out in any way, shape, or form. And for me, uh we’re gonna end it here, Hassan, because my heart is broken. We gotta go pack a bag and I gotta take you to the airport, and I don’t want to do it because I’d rather have you stay a lot longer. But you’ll be back for sure, so we’ll be talking to you again soon. But um, God bless you. Thank you so much for being here.

HASSAN JOHN: Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. You’ve been a big blessing. Thank you.

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