From Peanut Butter Days to Purpose: Jenni Catron’s Courageous Journey

In this episode of the Courageous Crossroads podcast, culture strategist, leadership coach, author, and speaker Jenni Catron joins Jeff to explore courage as “the brave next step.” Jenni recounts the faith-filled decisions that led her from rural Wisconsin to Nashville to pursue a career in Christian music, including moving a thousand miles away without knowing anyone, and later courageous choices to relocate across the country, navigate uncertainty and sacrifice with her husband, and launch her own business. She offers practical encouragement to reconnect with God-given dreams, persevere through loneliness, financial pressure, setbacks, and self-doubt, and take one faithful step at a time. Jenni Catron is the Founder and CEO of The 4Sight Group, a leadership and culture consultancy that helps leaders build healthy, thriving teams, clarify their culture, and accelerate organizational growth through its Lead Culture Framework. With more than two decades of corporate and nonprofit leadership experience, including work in Christian music and multi-site church leadership, Jenni consults, coaches, writes, and speaks nationally to help leaders put their vision into action. She is the author of Culture Matters: A Framework for Helping Your Team Grow, Thrive, and Be Unstoppable, a USA Today national bestseller, as well as The 4 Dimensions of Extraordinary Leadership and Clout.

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Full Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

JEFF JOHNSON: Hey friends, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. It’s me, Jeff, back with another amazing guest, Jenny Catron, who is the author of the book Culture Matters: a Framework for Helping Your Team Grow, Thrive, and Be Unstoppable. I had the opportunity to hear her at a Christian business leaders event. She was the keynote speaker, and I was really impressed with what she had to share. She runs an organization called Foresight Group, the number four S-I-G-H-T group. And we’ll put all of her credentials and everything in the show notes. And uh you need to learn a lot about Jenny, but right now you’re gonna learn a lot about how she answers that question. We ask all of our guests what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And uh what a fantastic interview. I had such a great time sitting down with uh Jenny, and um you’re really gonna love it. So without further ado, here she is. Jenny Catron, thank you very much for joining us today on the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. It’s wonderful to have you.

JENNI CATRON: Thank you so much, Jeff.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay, so we met at a Christian business leaders event in Des Moines, and I’m always paying attention when other people come buzzing around. I you were the keynote speaker, you did a fantastic job. I was really taken with your address.

JENNI CATRON: Thank you.

JEFF JOHNSON: And uh I’m always taken when all of a sudden other people start flitting around you and speaking with familiarity. So you operate in some different circles. You knew a lot of people in the room, I think.

JENNI CATRON: I did surprisingly, I got there and I was like, oh wait, I know I you know, I saw a few familiar faces, which was really fun. Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, that’s good. Okay, so you’re an author and you’ve written four books, five books, four four.

JENNI CATRON: Four, yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, I just want to turn this podcast around and make it all about me now, Jenny, because I want to know how to write books because I’ve got so many that are in and I’m so impressed with people that have actually spit them out. So congratulations, that’s wonderful.

JENNI CATRON: Thank you. I um yeah, you know, it’s funny. I as a little girl dreamed of writing a book, and I, you know, I can remember writing my first novel as a third grader, right? And I had these sheets of paper stuffed in a drawer in my bedroom, and I have no idea what happened to it, but I shelved that dream like we often do, you know, those little little girl, little boy dreams, you’re like, you know, sound amazing and then the real world hits. But when that dream came back around, I had the invitation from uh uh organization for my first book. And um, I was excited and then a little overwhelmed because what to your point, when you start thinking about what it actually takes to write a book, uh it can kind of like you just can get a little paralyzed, a little frozen. But then I just realized you just it’s one paragraph at a time. It’s you know, build the outline, you know, for the whole book, write the outline for each chapter, and just little bit by little bit. So I when I’m in book writing mode, I just I have a discipline of a couple hours of writing every day. And sometimes that means I’m getting up at four or five a.m. and writing before I do anything else.

JEFF JOHNSON: So make it fit in with everything else that you’re doing, yeah.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah. So it is, it’s I would encourage if it’s in you, do it because it’s so rewarding and it’s so it’s such a privilege to see it’s something very tangible you can see that you’ve done and you’ve put the work in, and you know you’ve put the work in because all the hours nobody else sees except your family who’s making the sacrifices along with you. If anytime I go into book writing mode, my poor husband is like, okay, here we go.

JEFF JOHNSON: Because you get what, your psyche gets different, or you just get so laser focused, or what is it?

JENNI CATRON: You get so laser focused and you and the margins, you know, because it, you know, to be honest, book writing doesn’t make you money. I mean, it like unless you’re a John Maxwell or an author at that level, right? Like, um it, it’s it helps you serve leaders. And so in the work that I get to do, being able to write and create content that helps leaders grow, think different, et cetera, like that’s such a gift. Um, but I still have to have a day job in addition to writing the books, right? So um, so it’s like you put in all these extra hours, um, but it it’s always worth it. It just takes a little bit of sacrifice to make the book time more.

JEFF JOHNSON: I was a fan anyway, but now I’m even a bigger fan that you say that it’s an altruistic endeavor. I mean, I get that, and it helps you, it helps create a structure and a framework and a platform for you to pour out the things that God’s giving you to pour out.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: But I think that that’s wonderful, that it’s an altruistic thing that you put all your energy to.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah. Yeah, it is, and it, you know, it’s it does give you the opportunities, right? It it it when you create a tool like that, again, it’s you know you’re serving leaders who might you might not ever meet them in person, but they can buy a book off of Amazon. Or um, but it does, you know, it does create the opportunities to speak at an event like I met you at, and uh then you get to connect with more leaders. And so what you know, it it doesn’t directly, you know, like pay the bills, but it creates opportunities for you to do the thing that you love to do, in my case, which is serve leaders.

JEFF JOHNSON: I love that. I love that, Jenny. And one thing I’m gonna say about the book, it and um I don’t mean to be so self-effacing, but this is my podcast, so I’ll take it wherever I want. So we’re gonna go.

JENNI CATRON: That’s perfect.

JEFF JOHNSON: But one of the things that I want to say about your book, Culture Matters, which is the one that I was able to get my hands on, you know, when you gave your talk, I ran up to the table right afterwards and purchased one.

JENNI CATRON: Thank you.

JEFF JOHNSON: Um I think it was Charles Spurgeon who talked about, you know, erudite kind of preachers, and he said he wants to take his sermons and fly them very low to the ground so that they’re understandable and everything.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: And I did I did some studying at Oxford University in um in organizational leadership and studied that for a year over there. And you want to talk about some heady kind of topics, and there’s all sorts of things that you can push and pull on, but culture really stands out when you talk about organizational leadership, and your book gets it right down to the ground in such an understandable and enriching sort of a way. So, I mean, I really appreciate that about you.

JENNI CATRON: Thank you. Thank you. That was the goal, and and you know, part of my heart on the culture work is everybody understands culture in concept and theory, right? It’s like, I know what a great culture feels like and I know what a bad culture feels like. But what I felt like was most leaders didn’t know what to actually do. Like it sounds great in concept, you hear the stories from companies that are doing it well, but the what does that mean day to day, right? What does it mean when I’m leading the meeting? What does it mean for all the organizational rhythms? And that was my heart in the book was to give you the how-to manual. Like now it’s, you know, and you and you you you read it, you realize it’s like it’s dense in that I’m I’m walking you through. Here’s the things you can do to really impact and influence your culture in an extraordinary way. Um, and so that that’s super meaningful to hear that you experienced it that way.

JEFF JOHNSON: No, it’s my congratulations. So you gotta you gotta write a fifth one now, whatever it is. So, do you okay, our the the focus of our topic here today is is primarily on courage and it settles on the one question what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And I love pulling people from all sorts of different fiefdoms and different backgrounds and expressing their God gifts and gifts in a different way because it’s it’s just beautiful to hear the individual answers to that question. Before I get there though, I want to ask a couple of clarifying questions. The first one would be um do you identify yourself more as a writer, uh a coach, a business leader, an expositor? I mean, how what do you identify as?

JENNI CATRON: That’s a great question. I would say that I I’m really torn between content creator and speaker. Okay, it’s it’s those two things that um and I and probably so here’s probably the way to synthesize that, Jeff, is that I’m a teacher.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay.

JENNI CATRON: So I might teach through public speaking or I might teach through writing. Yeah, that’s really what it is.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay. Well, that’s a great answer. And give me a little bit about your background. Where where are you sitting right now? What city?

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, so I’m at home in Nina, Wisconsin, which is the out just outside of Appleton, Wisconsin.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay.

JENNI CATRON: This is home now. I uh was born in Rhinelander, Wisconsin, which is the very northern part of the state, so very small town, rural northern Wisconsin. Went to Tennessee for college and then stayed there for almost 20 years. Uh, went to California for a few years, and then we came back here to what’s called the Fox Valley, Wisconsin. Um, my family was here, so we decided being close to extended family was the place to be for this season.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay. And when did you get your drive? When did you get let me let me ask it this way. My listeners have heard me quote um one of my favorite verses in the Bible, Romans chapter 11, verse 29. God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable, which really points to he sent us here to do something. And if we don’t do it, that thing won’t get done. And we can try to run away from it as long as we want to, but but it’s still gonna be there because that’s the way God made us. But how did you realize you were supposed to do what you were supposed to do?

JENNI CATRON: Such a great question. And I honestly I feel like the that drive and and from it within me was very God-given. Um, I was very much an outlier in my family. Wonderful, wonderful family, but small town, blue collar. Pretty much everybody stayed. I was the first one in my immediate family to go to college. But I remember as like a 13-year-old looking at the back of a CD. Now, I’m dating myself because nobody listens to music on CDs anymore, right? Right. But back in the day, we had these things called compact discs that you listened to for your music. And I was looking at the back of it was a group called DC Talk. They were a Christian group in the 90s. And there was a company called Forefront Records that was listed on the back of the CD case. And I loved music. Like I was, I was a hobbyist. Like I could play piano, I could sing, I was in choirs and all those things as a kid growing up. I loved music, but I wasn’t, I wasn’t destined to be a performer. Like, like that wasn’t, I knew that. Like I knew that. I wasn’t trying to, you know, I wasn’t gonna go on American Idol and, you know, be shamed from my poor audition, right? Um, but I but I loved music and I wanted to be a part of it. And I saw this company on the back of the CD case and said, I want to work for that company. Now, my family thought I was crazy. Like Jeff, they really like not in a like just in a like she’s a dreamer, you know, like not that they weren’t supportive, they just it felt so it felt so extreme. It felt so different from our small town family life. But I was, I was bent hell bent on it. I was like, I’m doing that. And so I did. Like I, and this is pre-internet, so I would send postcards to every college in the state of Tennessee that had a music communications dip program. And I basically just got all the information from all the schools that I thought I could go to that would help me get a job in that um business. And that’s what I did. I got a I got scholarships and I um went to school in Tennessee. And I mean, I just

JEFF JOHNSON: let me interrupt. You didn’t have a c you didn’t have a cousin, you didn’t have a friend, you didn’t have anybody else that was helping for their thing and doing that. It this is just you.

JENNI CATRON: This is this was just me. I had one cousin, a second cousin who went to college two years ahead of me. Um he went to one of the local Wisconsin, you know, Wisconsin University Wisconsin campuses. So that was a big deal. Um, but it wasn’t like we were powwowing over that. Like we were, you know, he was a couple years older. I was kind of the cool, uncool cousin, you know. So it really was me going, I need to figure this out. Like, and I and I don’t say that in a like disparaging because my family became quite supportive because they were like, well, she’s figuring this out. How do we get her there? You know? Right. Um, but yeah, it was it, and I think that was very God given. I think that that was because I look back at it and I’m like, I can’t take credit for that fully. And again, my family wasn’t unsupportive, but they also didn’t know exactly how to help. And I think God just gave me that drive and ambition. And I was like, I’m gonna find a way. And I did. I I found a way. And, you know, again, scholarships and things that made that more possible because we were, you know, we weren’t an affluent family. Um, but um, that was probably one of my most courageous moments was like saying, I’m gonna, I’m gonna move a thousand miles away. I don’t know a soul.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah.

JENNI CATRON: And you know, keep going.

JEFF JOHNSON: Here I go. What you’re saying, even what you’re saying right now, though, Jenny, I’m taken because that’s gonna encourage somebody with the permission to follow that thing that’s pounding in their chest when it looks like nobody else around them is doing anything.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Just get up and go. And I just I think that’s fantastic.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah. I’ll remember um my dad will tell this story frequently because I so I went to college for a couple of years, and I went to college in the Chattanooga area, which was a which was a couple hours away from Nashville, where the company that I really wanted to work for was located. And I’m I get into my second year, my sophomore year of college, and I start applying for internships at Forefront Records, the company I wanted to work for. And I got an internship for the following fall. So I come home for the summer and I work all summer and I load up my 92 uh Saturn, I think SL1 or whatever, you know, like my little bitty car. Yeah, I load it with everything I can possibly fit into it, and I’m gonna drive back to Nashville. And I’m doing all of this, and I don’t have housing yet in Nashville. Like now I have calls out, and again, this is pre-internet, this is pre-you know, post online, and you can find a roommate kind of thing. It’s like I’m through a friend through a friend through a friend trying to find a place to live in Nashville. And I’m pulling out of my driveway, you know, that fall morning to head to Nashville to start my internship. And my dad is like, Jen, you don’t have a place to live. And I’m like, Dad, it’ll be fine. It’ll be fine. Um, and every like, and he again, kudos to him because he was so supportive. And, you know, but I’m I can’t imagine as a parent like going, Oh, yeah. What in the world?

JEFF JOHNSON: There she goes.

JENNI CATRON: There she goes. And I did have a place to stay the first week. So, with clarification, I did have a place to stay for the first week. Mind you, I didn’t know the person I was staying with. I was like a friend of a friend, had a friend in Nashville who was like, Yeah, you can stay here for a week until you find a place. So I do, I move and I let myself into this apartment of somebody who I don’t know. Like now it sounds ridiculous, right? But um, and and it all worked out, right? It was, it was all that like I had that conviction that this was what God was calling me to do. And sometimes I have to really try to tap into that brave girl because I’m like, that girl at 20 had was more courageous some days than this girl whom age we will not share.

JEFF JOHNSON: But it’s like that when you look back and you’re like, I can’t believe I did that.

JENNI CATRON: Right, right. That’s great. But those, but those are those moments that you’re like, but look how faithful God was. Like, look how like that willingness to sense a calling and follow that. Now I’m not saying be stupid or you know, like hasty, because I’m not really that way. I’m very measured and very, you know, I call my company foresight because I really I say you need foresight for success. Like you need to be anticipating and planning and preparing. And yet there are moments where you just know that you’re supposed to take the leap and you can’t completely explain everything, but you need to do it.

JEFF JOHNSON: You need to do it, and you just got that’s that drive that’s inside of you. Well, I think that puts you in pretty good context for our listeners, then the kind of person that you are that driven person. I celebrate that, I think that’s wonderful. Um how do you define courage?

JENNI CATRON: That’s a great question. You know, the first thing that came to mind when you said that was like the brave next step. The um not like the yeah, I I think that’s how I would summarize it, the brave next step. Like it’s like you don’t know what’s beyond, but you know that it’s the right and maybe the right next step um is being faithful to I know this is the right next step, but I might not I might not know exactly how everything’s gonna play out.

JEFF JOHNSON: You would have been the kind of person that would have been great with like Lewis and Clark. I mean, seriously, like you didn’t know, but you knew you were you you had an objective and you knew to find a way to know. And so, okay, so you’re a you’re a real frontiersman.

JENNI CATRON: You know, it’s interesting you say that. I am I am very drawn to those stories, like the the leaders who go first, the the courage that it takes to um go first, be the one to p to chart the way. Uh so it’s interesting you say that. That resonates with me.

JEFF JOHNSON: Um who represents courage in your life? And this is a more interesting question for you, uh Jenny, because uh you are that frontiersman, that that person that’s taking your chin out and doing it first. So I’m really curious who because you wouldn’t say you wouldn’t say people in your family didn’t exhibit courage.

JENNI CATRON: Right.

JEFF JOHNSON: They weren’t doing that thing. That’s not what we’re saying. It’s just that I’m curious how you answer this.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, that’s so good. I think um a very fun example right now is so my husband and I don’t have our own children, but we love being aunt and uncle. So I spoil nieces and nephews, and that’s the delight of my life. But I think um watching them do things for the first time um and stretching themselves. And um so my nephew, who is 11, uh, he both he and his younger sister went with me on a speaking event a couple months ago. And I was so I was speaking at a water park for a conference that was happening at the water park, and it was like this was a total like ant win because they could come with me and go to the water park and like we could hang out, but I was working, they were water parking, and it was all, you know, it was great. But they were very curious about my speaking event, so they wanted to come to it. And as we were talking about it, I don’t even know how it developed into this, but basically they both decided that they wanted to do something inside of my talks. So my nephew wrote like a four-minute talk on culture and the culture he sees within his baseball team. And my niece did an interview on what people value and how that look, what that looks like. And so it was so like I got such joy watching both of them um do public speaking for the first time. So my nephew writes his four minute talk. He gets up there, he shares it. You know, the the room goes wild because they’re just, you know, so excited and cheering for him. And then my niece, you know, she’s a couple years younger than him. So she we did an interview, and basically I interviewed her about some of the values she sees inside of our family. But I think I found it was so much fun. For me to watch them be courageous and try something new for the first time. My niece was super nervous and she wanted to rehearse it multiple times so she would be prepared. So that’s that it was it was a blast. It was so much fun. So that I think of that a lot because I watched them do things that maybe feel second nature to me. But watching and seeing them experience things for the first time and stretch themselves and challenge themselves to new things is super fun for me. But then the other, you know who else came to mind? And this might sound crazy because it’s, you know, I really I love studying people from history, but Queen Elizabeth I in England, um, I think she’s a fascinating case study because she was the first queen who was queen in her own right. Um, and then she wasn’t married, so she didn’t, you know, so she it was very unusual for a female to be able to be the ruler in the 1600s. And so when you read some of her stories and there’s actually a leadership book written about her, you just think about some of those individuals so early on who had that kind of um, you know, those opportunities that were kind of unheard of. So a lot of people who are the first really fascinate me when you’re the they’re the first to do something.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, back to the frontiersman. This is you’re very interesting, Jenny. This is great. Um, okay.

JENNI CATRON: I’ve never been called the Frontiersman before. I like that.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, I love it. Because that’s where you are, you’re right out on the cutting edge. Um okay, so before I ask you the big question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Which I don’t know if you’ve touched on bits of that already, but the the th other little flavor of courage I want to talk to you about is this public speaking. You identify as a speaker, you know that’s the number one fear. I mean, people are terrified. Stick a microphone in their face and they’re horrified. So talk about courage in relationship to standing up in front of 500 people and giving them an address. What is what kind of courage does that take?

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, such a great question. And it does, I mean, it does take a significant amount of courage and still, you know, so again, I’ve been public speaking. I mean, even in high school, I was doing, you know, different dramas and programs and things that had me on stages. And so I I credit some of my very early experiences to helping me get comfortable being on stage, even though it might have been music or drama when I was a kid. But um, but even still, and I think in some ways, public speaking now carries, I feel like it carries more of a weight of responsibility in that when I take the stage, I’m, you know, people are giving their time and energy, which is very valuable, right? Like, you know, to sit and and hear. And so I feel a deep sense of responsibility to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to serve them in some way. So one of the things I say when I take the stage is see them, love them, serve them. That’s like, that’s like the mantra in me of like see people. Like, and so that might mean trying to talk to as many people before an event as possible to get a feel for who’s in the room and what’s their story and what’s going on in their lives. So see them, love them because you know, I’m a person of faith. So, you know, the two great commandments, love God, love others, right? So can I, can I can I, because I’ve seen them, can I love them by way of and then serving them, of figuring out how can I do say or do something that um supports, equips, serves people in some way. And of course I don’t get that right a lot of times. But I the reason I say that and the reason I do that is when I do that, it takes, it helps me take the the my energy or my focus off of myself and puts it on the room that I’m in and who I’m serving. Because whenever I get too self-focused, that’s when I get fearful, that’s when I get anxious, that’s when I get nervous. And so the courage in public speaking is almost the courage to uh forget yourself and remember that you’re there to serve others and to really see and serve others. Um, but I still get nervous and I still have to do those little mantras and I still have to like, you know, try to pivot from, and we all think about ourselves, right? We’re all worried about do I look weird? Is something, you know, is my hair sticking up? Is did I say something stupid? What if I said um too many times? And like all this stuff that you’re gonna get wrong and you’re gonna mess up, or you know, the slides aren’t working correctly, and now I’m, you know, I’m worried about that, or because there’s a myriad of things that always, you know, don’t go exactly to plan whenever you’re public speaking. And literally, Jeff, I have fallen off of a stage speaking. You want to talk about I fell off a stage. That’s right. I I’ll give the short version of this, but I’m doing a um a full-day workshop with a team of over a hundred employees. They had me at their company to do this workshop for the day. I’m it’s I’m an hour into the day, maybe not even an hour into the day. My heel of my shoe catches the ridge of the stage, and I can’t stop myself. I tumble all the way down. Fortunately, it was stair steps all the way down. I tumble all the way down, land on the floor right in front of somebody. That poor guy was like, I don’t think he knew what to do. Like he’s like, and so the whole room is quiet, right? Because I’m the one with the microphone. Oh my god and I’m laying on the floor. And so I pop up and I’m like, I’m, you know, I kind of like joke about it a little bit. I’m like, you know, kind of relieve the pressure in the room because nobody knows what to do or what to say. Um, but I’m telling you, that was the most nerve-wracking moment ever. And um we recovered, it was fine. They probably still tell stories this day. I mean, it might be memorable because they’re probably still telling stories of the girl who fell off the stage, and maybe they remember something that I talked about that day. Um, but all that to say that things go wrong, you’re going to be make a fool of yourself, and yet you’ve got to have the courage to get back up and do it again.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah. Oh, that’s I’m sorry that happened to you, but wow, what yeah.

JENNI CATRON: You do it long enough, you get those stories. Whatever you’re doing, right? It’s like I might be public speaking, but other people are doing things, and you’re gonna have the day when it does not go right and you want to quit. And the sometimes the courage to just get up and do it again takes everything in you. But you gotta do it.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah, that has the has the opportunity to hear Jenny Catron be the keynote speaker, there some people are coming for a free lunch, but nobody’s coming just for that. Everybody’s got something going on and they’re wanting to walk out of there with a nugget or some encouragement or a can I really or something like that. And for you to know that there’s a speaker up in front that’s uh addressing that first and foremost internally. Like, how can I serve these people? How can I love these people? That’s I think that’s wonderful. They’re in good hands when they go over the keynote.

JENNI CATRON: Okay As long as I don’t fall off the stage, then we’re good.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay, Jenny Catron, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

JENNI CATRON: I think I already shared it in the moving to Nashville not knowing a soul, you know, and and like just very blatantly going after a job that feels ridiculous, but I did get it. I got the internship and I got the job. Um I think the other one. I you know, there’s been there have been so many moments of, you know, we we we made a move from Nashville to California and my job took us there. And I would say that was probably the second biggest courageous move because it we moved for my job, but it meant my husband having to relocate his job and in his profession, he had to basically start over. So he was pretty tenured in his career, and that move required him to start over. And that one felt like a big courageous move because I wasn’t just, you know, when I moved to Nashville, it was for me. I was still single at that point. I’m just chasing my dream. I’m the only one directly impacted by it. But when we made that next big move, it really impacted my husband in his career direct trajectory. And, you know, it was a decision that we made together. He was supportive of it. You know, in fact, he was the one that said, I think you’re called to this, so I think we need to go, even though he had to sacrifice a lot. But it was the courage to still move forward with the unknown and the uncertainty of making such a big move, leaving we had a community of 20 years in Nashville that felt really safe and comfortable. And um, and when you relocate when you’re midlife, it like that’s hard to do. I underestimated that one. Um, but that’s probably and then I started my business 10 years ago, and that was another big courageous move was to start my own business and just to kind of believe that you can do something on your own and build a business that you know is a reason reasonable and respectful job. Um, so those are those are some of the biggies for me. I can probably keep coming up with some, but those are huge.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, of course you could keep coming up with them because you’re a frontiersman. You need to write your next book, Jenny, which you can dedicate to me. Go ahead and do it, is about New Frontiers and about how you’re like constantly on the cutting edge because I feel like you’re just looking for the next one, Jenny. I think this is wonderful. Um what kind of speaking of the most courageous thing, let’s do the chasing down the internship and the job in Nashville. What kind of what kind of roadblocks did you run into? What kind of discouragement did you get? Which of course is the devil’s biggest trick when you’re chasing after the dispatching the duties of the ministry that God’s given you. Even if it can look like a secular job, but you know, it’s still a God-given work. What kind of roadblocks did you run into and how did you deal with those?

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, I think the one of the things that stands out from that season, I call it my peanut butter days, because I got the job, but the job was paying me six dollars an hour. And I’m, you know, I did find a roommate roommate situation, and it was with two other roommates, you know, in this small small apartment. But I mean, I literally had enough, I think I had a $20 bill that I would go to the grocery store and I’d buy a loaf of bread, a jar of peanut butter, a few frozen vegetables, and a bag of rice. And like that was what I would eat, live off of for a week because I just didn’t have any resources. Because again, again, I didn’t grow up with resources. Um, I had now I had student loans to pay off. And um, even though I had scholarships and things, I still had um all of that. And so to make ends meet, you know, it was, and I had a second job and all of that. So I call it my peanut butter days because I literally lived off of peanut butter sandwiches. But I in that season, I was living the dream from uh what I was getting to do, and the opportunities and the learning and growing and all of the things that I hoped for and anticipated. And so there’s often seasons, I think this is true when you’re courageously chasing something, that there’ll be a part that’s flourishing, right? That like, you know, everything is great, but there will also be something that is extraordinarily hard, right? And so I my my work and opportunities were flourishing, but my resources were really slim. And that was, you know, it was like I was I was literally living off of peanut butter in my peanut butter days. So I would say that was that was a big challenge in that. Um and then I got overlooked for a promotion that I really wanted, and that was discouraging. Um, it took me a time to find my friend group, so I felt really lonely for a while. That’s another thing that kind of stands out is that that season, again, for as much as it was exciting and it was exhilarating, it took me a while to find my people because I just left all of my college friends and moved a couple hours to Nashville and I didn’t really know anybody. And um, so yeah, so there were just a you know, a few different things on that front that were just stretching.

JEFF JOHNSON: Those are a lot of courageous endeavors. I can’t imagine too changing your changing your friend group. That’s a huge thing. Yeah, I think people don’t realize that as much when they come out of college, that when you go into the working world, you’re done with college.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, and all of that doesn’t matter.

JEFF JOHNSON: It’s a whole different experience. Yeah, something different, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took a while. I can remember those days feeling pretty lonely, and but then still having to be committed to going, okay, I gotta figure out where are my people. And the beauty of that is that to this day, now a couple of the friends that I built in that season are still three of my best friends to this day, which is really special.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah. Oh um are you introvert, extrovert?

JENNI CATRON: Introvert, technically, yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Probably ambivert because you get up and you need to be that in rooms, but you your tank gets filled up with solitude with solitude.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, yep, completely. And I have to really be intentional about that. I think that took me a little bit to learn because I’ve always had a very extroverted job. And I like that. Like I like, I like I love what I get to do. But if I don’t get alone time, if I don’t protect my introvert time, just ask my husband. It gets a little it gets a little fiery around here.

JEFF JOHNSON: Is he a is he an introvert or is he an extrovert?

JENNI CATRON: He is he is technically an extrovert, but he needs he doesn’t need a big circle. So he he would not love stages and things like I do, but he doesn’t rejuvenate alone. He rejuvenates with a small group of his people. And so so we, you know, it’s we’ve got the similar thing.

JEFF JOHNSON: My wife, my sweet Danielle, we’ve been married for 29 years, and she’s the same way. She’ll get energy from a small group of people, whatever. My battery gets filled up when I am by myself. That’s right. I mean, it’s just an important thing.

JENNI CATRON: Um, yeah, and just to know that is really important because then it makes so much more sense when you know, when you when you’re desperately needing some of that alone time.

JEFF JOHNSON: Are you uh is it a is it a um is it fill your batteries to write? Is writing an introverted deal or an extroverted deal? Is it you by yourself?

JENNI CATRON: Yep, it’s me by myself. Um, and that’s why I when I am writing mode, I usually write first thing in the morning because that’s before everything else has kind of gotten my attention and distracted me. So I I yeah, it’s definitely an introverted thing. And the more margin and space that I have and unhurried space that I have for it, the more I love it.

JEFF JOHNSON: What’s the first book you wrote?

JENNI CATRON: The first book I wrote is called Just the Lead. Um, it was written for women leaders in church ministry. So it’s a very like niche book. That was the one that I was invited to write from a company that was or it was a ministry that was supporting other church leaders. And um, I co-wrote it with a woman named Sherry Surratt. So we co-wrote that one.

JEFF JOHNSON: But you were asked to write that.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, I was asked to write that one.

JEFF JOHNSON: What was the catalyst for that?

JENNI CATRON: Uh, in that season, so this would have been like the mid-2000s. Um, there were more women in church leadership, but it was still a little unusual for women to be, and it didn’t matter theology, you know, because there’s different varying theologies on roles for women in leadership, but um, but just there were more women serving in leadership roles, but very few mentors are or or models of it. And so they were seeing that they were, it was an organization that served, they don’t exist any longer, but they were an organization that supported churches. And um, they just saw it as a need of a resource for women leaders in the church, and so that was the the impetus for it.

JEFF JOHNSON: But they knew to reach out to you to get done based on your bona fides and your background and that sort of thing.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: That’s very interesting. Um what’s your next frontier?

JENNI CATRON: Ooh.

JEFF JOHNSON: Where do we find Jenny Catron 10 years down the road?

JENNI CATRON: Yeah. I hope that I am still my intention is to still be serving leaders. And um I want leaders and teams to be healthy and thriving. So I’ll I’ll I’ll say it this way. There was Barna did some research a while back, and I think it was 82% of young leaders said that we’re in a leadership crisis because there are no good leaders. So the the painful part of the story for me is that people don’t perceive the perception of leadership is not great in the broader culture. And I think there’s plenty of reasons for why that is true. But I know that when I look at my life and my story and I look at the leaders who had influence. So I’ll give you a little like my leadership philosophy really fast.

JEFF JOHNSON: Please.

JENNI CATRON: Leadership, John Maxwell says leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. The word influence means the power to change or affect someone. And if you think about that definition for a minute, you know, influence, leadership is influence. Influence is the power to change or affect someone. Every one of us can think of somebody who changed and affected our lives. And we’ll think of the positive examples. I think of the my first boss who owned an ice cream shop in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin, and she believed in me and she gave me opportunities and she gave me some of the courage to do the things that I went on to do because of her level of belief. Like she changed and affected me because of her influence. We can also all think of stories and examples of people who changed and affected us, but maybe not for the positive. Maybe it was the really negative manager who talked down to us and berated us, looked us up, looked us over, et cetera. Um, so we have those negative experiences. And my conviction is I want leaders to understand the sacredness of leadership, that we are changing and affecting the lives of people, that when you choose to see the potential, when you choose to see the possibility in people, the extraordinary gift that is to them. And it doesn’t mean you don’t hold them accountable, it doesn’t mean that you don’t have the hard conversations when you need to have them. But when you see people and you serve people and you really believe that people are the point, that you can create both your leadership influence and then the environments that you create can be extraordinary. And I think in a world where we’re wrestling with all of technology and AI and, you know, are the robots coming to take us away? You know, like I think leaders who understand that people are the point that understand and see people and see the humanness and like want to draw out the best of people and their giftedness and their God-given strengths, like when when leaders can see that as their um best opportunity, I think we have not only a much better world of work, which is where I spend my days as helping leaders and teams be thriving and healthy, but just a much better world in general. So I hope my goal is to keep banging that drum to help leaders see the sacred work of leadership and um recognize that people are the point and and take action to serve people well.

JEFF JOHNSON: I’m I’m grateful as a business owner and leader myself. I’m grateful that there are coaches and people, authors and people like you out there, Jenny, that are banging that drum because that needs to be you know, when other when everybody else gets where they’re supposed to be, the whole world gets better. Whether they work for my company or the other guy’s company down the side, the whole world gets better. Um so where does this probably my last question and then I’ll let you go. Where does courage fit in developing culture? Regardless of where you’re at in a business, where does courage fit with that? And I’m reminding our listeners, Jenny’s book is culture matters, and everybody needs to go get a copy of this thing and read it. It’s really fantastic. Um and I’ve read a bunch of stuff, so yeah, anyway, it’s wonderful. But where does courage fit in developing culture? Because it’s Deming’s, I wasn’t Deming that said culture eat strategy for breakfast.

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, yeah, there’s debate on who who was the original on it, but yes, culture eat strategy strategy for breakfast. Yep.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yep.

JENNI CATRON: And you know, culture is the water we swim in, right? It’s it’s it is the environment that we’re creating intentionally or accidentally within our organization. Um, I think I think the question about where does courage fit in culture is actually the question every Leader needs to ask. Do I want a culture of create courageous leaders? Do I want and what does that mean to us? Right. And of course, Jeff, you’re equipping us to understand what that looks like and so forth. But what one of the things I talk about when I work on culture with organizations is first of all, you have one whether you have acknowledged it or not. And then secondly, you need to get really purposeful about what you want it to look like. So in in the framework that I have for leaders, we talk about defining the culture you aspire to. Like what do you want it to be? What, what do you look like at your best right now? And how can you create more of that? And so then I think you have to say, do we want a courageous culture? Do we want an environment where people feel safe enough to try new things, where people feel um safe enough to take risks, um, where you attract frontiersmen, right? You attract those people who want to keep learning, growing, and making things better. So how, you know, I think every leader has to say, what does courage mean to me and what do I want that to look like in our culture? And then um, then you’re gonna figure out, okay, now how do we build the rhythm systems, behaviors, values that help make that possible? But I’d be curious, Jeff, what would you say? Because you’re the you’re the courage expert.

JEFF JOHNSON: What do you mean? Uh, do as as far as where courage plays in changing culture?

JENNI CATRON: Or yeah, where it yeah, where where you see it impact cultures.

JEFF JOHNSON: Faith and trust in God, and I feel like people have that they have that tuning fork going off in their heart that says this isn’t right and we need to do something different. And it doesn’t matter where you’re at in an organization, there’s a lot of books out there about leading from whatever level in an order that everybody’s a leader. That’s my that’s my um belief. And so when you have that tuning fork going off in you, you just need to take action on it. You need to step out, and that’s real courage. That makes the thing go. That’s how you get to the frontier, Jenny. How you’ve done it. You know, you’ve taken those steps and you’ve gotten out there. Okay, this will be my last question to you. Um somebody is not at the frontier, somebody wants to be at the frontier, somebody sees Jenny and some other people out there, but somebody is in the mundane day-to-day and they just don’t know how to get out of that. What would you say to them from a courage standpoint about how to take that step, how to move on, how to become the person that God meant for them to be?

JENNI CATRON: Yeah, that’s so good. That’s so good. I um reconnect with your dreams. Because if you take an inventory, I bet you can look back at some places in your life in your story where there were God-given dreams that were there that for one reason or another you shelved. Maybe somebody shut it down, maybe you were afraid of it. Um, there uh could be a million reasons, but reconnect with those God-given dreams. And usually we see glimpses of them in our early story, right? When we’re in our younger, you know, those childhood moments that it were like that glimpses of me, glimpses of me at my best, glimpses of the things that I hope for. I mentioned, you know, as a third grader writing my first novel, and that dream was rekindled years later when somebody invited me to it. Um, Galatians 6 verses verse 4 in the message translate translation says, make a careful exploration of who you are in the work you’ve been given. And then sink yourself into that. So it’s it’s saying, make a careful exploration. Who has God gifted you to be? How has he wired you? How has he gifted you? What talents, what strengths has he given you? And I think sometimes we shelve all of that because of the responsibilities of adulting. But I think that’s a sometimes a cop-out for really chasing those God-given dreams uh within us. And again, there’s, you know, we’ve got to figure out then how to do that. But I would say reconnect with those dreams, reconnect with those gifts, those talents, the experiences and the opportunities that have shaped your life. And then just take one small step back towards them, right? Like, you know, I’m I’m a big believer in, you know, you you you write a book one sentence, one paragraph at a time. And the same thing is true with chasing some of those big ideas or those big dreams or getting back to that frontier is reconnect with those dreams, get a vision again for what you hope for. And then it’s just that brave next step. Like, what’s that one next step I can do to keep working towards that?

JEFF JOHNSON: Jenny Catron, writer, speaker, frontiersman. You discovered. I love it. Woman of tremendous courage. Um I am, on behalf of the human race, I’m grateful that God unleashed you on this work. Thank you so much for being a part of the podcast.

JENNI CATRON: Thanks, Jeff.

ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info at crossroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.