Madeline Dean: One Courageous Choice at a Time

In this powerful episode of Courageous Crossroads, Jeff Johnson sits down with Madeline Dean for a deeply honest conversation about trauma, addiction, incarceration, recovery, faith, and the ongoing courage it takes to choose change. Madeline shares how early childhood wounds, mental health struggles, and addiction led her through painful seasons, including time in Mitchellville, but also how honesty, mentorship, therapy, spiritual growth, and programs like Change Course helped her begin building a new life one courageous decision at a time. When asked the most courageous thing she has ever done, Madeline answers simply and profoundly: deciding to change. Her story reminds listeners that courage is not always one dramatic moment —it is strength, action, persistence, hope, and faith practiced over and over again in the small, difficult choices of daily life. Madeline Dean is a Change Course graduate, a woman in recovery, a student of personal and spiritual growth, and a passionate advocate for honesty, healing, mental health awareness, addiction recovery, and support for those impacted by incarceration. Through her vulnerability and hard-won wisdom, Madeline offers a compelling testimony of resilience, redemption, and the belief that no one is beyond hope.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out and courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

JEFF JOHNSON: Hey friends, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast, Madeline Dean. Madeline Dean is my next guest on the podcast and I cannot wait for you to hear her story. She is a recent graduate of the Change Course program, which is a program local here in Des Moines that helps people with soft skills and hard skills come up from difficult situations and get fully employed and fully engaged back in the workforce and back in society. And it’s a wonderful, wonderful charity change course. And Madeline is a shining star that’s just recently graduated from the program and I’m happy to call her a new friend of mine. I was at the graduation ceremony for Change Course where Madeline had the opportunity to get up and speak and she was so eloquent and so vibrant with her gratitude and her thanksgiving and the optimism about what laid ahead that it just really captivated me. And you’ll hear me talk a little bit about that in the interview. But anyway, here is Madeline Dean with her answer to the question, what’s the most courageous thing?

MADELINE DEAN: Thank you, First of all, for coming to my graduation and just being there and being a part of Change Course and everything you do, poor Change Course because it makes a huge difference.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, thank you for saying that and you’re very, very, very welcome. It’s easy when I hear the stories of people like you. I mean, I was just totally blown away. So, yeah, thanks for being on the podcast today. I’m using my phone here, get myself settled. You got your water, I got my coffee. Go hot. We’re ready to have a conversation. So, hey everybody, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. I’ve got, I’m so excited for this guest today. Madeline Dean, I got to hear her the tiniest bit of her. So, I don’t know her story. So, this is why we’re having you on today to hear more of your story and mainly how you answer that question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But I got to hear Madeline get up and speak at a graduation ceremony for accomplishing a huge goal. And I was, and I was just blown away with the presence of you Madeline and the way you carried yourself and the courage that it took to go from where you’ve been to where you are now. So, whatever you want to share with us today is fair game. We’re just going to have a nice little conversation. And so nice to meet you. Thank you for joining us.

MADELINE DEAN: Nice to meet you as well. And thank you for having me. And welcome to everybody that’s going to be listening to this. And I really hope that I can share something that touches everyone. And from my experience, I know when I look for the similarities, I can find them. So, hopefully this, my story can touch somebody or somebody can get something out of it today. And I’m happy to be talking with you.

JEFF JOHNSON: Wonderful. Well said. Well said. So, let’s learn a little bit about you Madeline, wherever you want to jump in. Your t-shirt says, I love your t-shirt. It says, there is hope.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah, that’s right. This is Bradford Johnson’s artwork. Yeah, so I’m sporting a change course mission. And I guess that’s kind of where I’m at right now in life. I could, I could start there and backtrack just a little bit. But I did just graduate from change course and nonprofit program for professional and personal development. And it’s been a huge foundation in the story of courage that I want to share with you guys today. So, yeah, I mean, I was born in Minnesota. My parents got divorced when I was young. We moved down to Iowa. My mom, my sister and I. And we lived with her parents, my nan and papa as me and all my friends will always call them. And yeah, and.

JEFF JOHNSON: And whereabouts in Minnesota and whereabouts in Iowa?

MADELINE DEAN: So Rochester, Minnesota,

JEFF JOHNSON: okay.

MADELINE DEAN: And then we moved down to Westamore and is where we initially landed and where we’ve been most of the time. Yeah. And so I grew up going to school and I went to Montessori School as a child. I think that kind of factors into my story a little bit because I was always from the beginning I was given an alternate way to learn. And in our country, there’s, you know, pretty much a one size fits all education system. And unless you seek out other other things, and fortunately for me, my parents thought it would be important and good for me. And I had a lot of energy. I was very intelligent from a very young age. Not sound, you know, you could just learn anything like that. But these are the things that I was told, you know. And it’s just interesting to where my story leads. You know, almost a little bit too smart for my own good at times where it caused boredom. And I think that’s kind of times when I would start messing around with acting out. And I think that my story really centers around dealing with mental illness and mine and the people around me, you know, because we are shaped so much by the people around us.

JEFF JOHNSON: And you said your parents had separated?

MADELINE DEAN: Yes, yes, yes. And then I had a relationship with my dad. He had visited on the weekends, things like that until I was about 12 years old. And then we didn’t have a relationship again until I reached out at 16 and I really tried to make that relationship work. It hasn’t been until I’m 31 now, about to be 32 in September. And we have a very good relationship now. But that’s something we’ve had to build over the years.

JEFF JOHNSON: But you had large gaps where you weren’t around your dad?

MADELINE DEAN: Exactly, exactly. Yes.

JEFF JOHNSON: That was that was that was tough for you.

MADELINE DEAN: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think it’s tough for any kid and for girls, you know, it’s it’s great to have a good male figure in your life, of course. And then also the confusion that comes with was it something I did? Is this, you know, does this have something to do with me? And you know, and that’s translated in my life to many different in many different ways, things like struggling with time management, you know, and I’ve through therapy and things like that, been able to trace that back to, you know, I don’t ever want to let anybody down. I have, you know, small fears of abandonment that I work on, you know, and they didn’t use to be so small, you know, and they they can kind of run the show if you’re not aware of them. So luckily for me, you know, my symptom was first alcohol and then drugs, you know, at 16, I was a full bone alcoholic and I had, well, let me just let me not skip one part right there. I was in everything as a child, I danced for eight years, I did Taekwondo, I was, I played tackle football, I played soccer, basketball, you know, I was always kept busy and diagnosed with ADHD at 11, put on medication. And my parents and my family were doing exactly the best they could and what they knew how to do at that time, you know, in retrospect, I wish, you know, there would have been some other things before the medications, but, you know, that’s my story and I’ve lived through it and I’m great today, you know, so.

JEFF JOHNSON: What’s fantastic today I’m telling you, but you were you, were you. Unhappy as a child, were you depressed, were you happy and just dealing with it? I mean, what was that kind of

MADELINE DEAN: yeah, yeah, and you know what I’m going to share this because that’s part of my story of courage is just being honest and just saying the hard things sometimes and I know for me sometimes they come out messy the first time. But whenever I speak the truth, my truth is as long as I’m not harming anybody, you know, I always feel better so that’s something I’ve tried to practice, you know, and the truth of the matter was that there was another family member living in the house and I was molested by a family member for many years unbeknownst to anybody else in the house. So, you know, they’re obviously that would be pretty hard as a parent or a sibling or anybody to later find out or know and especially when it’s a family member it’s something that I didn’t even ever know why knew right away as a small child that this was my secret to keep and I had to protect the family and I took that role on which was detrimental. I was a child in the long run because I wasn’t taking care of myself and it started to show at school in elementary school. I mean, I got called into office several times for picking on kids and I have the kindest heart, you know, like before this, my teachers told my mom the only problem that conferences was the only problem is Mattie is a little too empathetic. She really cares, you know, when it’s involving other people when she doesn’t need to, you know, and I’m like, you know, this is something that I have always kind of dealt with but, you know, yeah, I just I knew that I needed to and I knew too from a young age that there was something that happened to this person that made this happen, you know, I knew that I had a pretty good.

JEFF JOHNSON: I had empathy for the person that was abusing you because you’re like, there’s a reason why they’re doing this.

MADELINE DEAN: Right, right. No, thank you for saying that because that I mean that does yeah that encapsulates exactly what I what I felt and, you know, and then I I changed to public school. I went to public school for a while. I did great. I’m down a little bit of trouble here and there, but, you know, in retrospect, it was for attention. And I did have a amazing male role model in my life who was my grandfather, my mom’s dad and he worked a lot. So that was kind of the only downside to not seeing him as much in the house and things like that. So, but as far as a good male role model, I couldn’t have asked for anyone better. I mean, he taught me how to talk to people, look people in the eyes, shake people’s hands, you know, and he came from very little and worked his way to be successful. So he showed me that it was possible and something he always said to me was, stay the course. No matter what it is, stay the course. And he passed away about a year before I went into change course. And so that whole time I was really, you know, I knew he was there and was going to be so proud of me if I finished this. So I was a huge motivator for me.

JEFF JOHNSON: And nobody knew that the abuse was going on.

MADELINE DEAN: No, no, no. And so then it translated to, you know, and I think I dealt with mental health. I think I dealt with anxiety and depression and ADHD. And I think I might have had some dyslexia as well. But also like fought through it and that just shows how resilient, you know, we can be when we need to be. So, yeah, I really.

JEFF JOHNSON: Can I can I interrupt you, Maddie and ask you maybe a tough question?

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Did you feel like you had good advocates with your parents? I mean, was that a safe space, even though if they didn’t know what was going on, did you feel like I’m okay in my home? You know, I can come home. I can be comforted. And even if they’re not dealing with ADHD, you know, like as you say now in retrospective, which it would have done something different. Did you feel like they were a safe place for you?

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah, absolutely. Like my my grandma and my grandpa were always there. My mom was always there. My mom paddled with depression through my childhood. And it was visible to me. And you know, she had just gotten out of it. She had just gone through a divorce and you know, so it made sense to me. But it lasted longer than it should have. And so I kind of watched that too. And my mom, she was there for everything. She showed up for every sporting event, all of those kind of things. But it’s the same thing with drugs, alcohol. It doesn’t matter what it manifests as when you have something like that, it puts a veil on between you and the other person, you know, from true connection. So I think that, and I didn’t ever want to tell anybody because I didn’t ever want to have my family look upon differently. I never wanted anybody to take the blame for it. I didn’t even want him to feel bad. You know, so that’s that’s honestly how I felt for a very, very long time. And I don’t think that that was like my reason for the path I took. I think that there’s a lot of reasons. But yeah, I mean, I think that my family, they were great. I mean, we went to Disney World. We went out of the country. We went. And, you know, we always had everything we needed. We were well taken care of. And always told that we could do anything we wanted. You know, things like that, like they, they definitely were trying the hardest. But what I have learned is generational trauma and generational patterns are real. And it takes real work to stop them. You can’t just say, Oh, yeah, I see that pattern and hope it ends. Takes real work.

JEFF JOHNSON: So, yeah, takes a lot of courage.

MADELINE DEAN: Exactly. Unfortunately, you know, my family through my journey has taken that path with me, you know, and grown also and been very courageous through my whole journey. You know, instead by me because it was a scary, scary ride at times, you know, I’m sure for my, I do. I grew up with the sister, who’s five years older than me and her name is Hillary. And I mean, she taught me everything I know I look up to her. She’s the greatest person in the world. So, yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: She’s still, she’s still in your life, close?

MADELINE DEAN: Yes. Yes. And then I have some step siblings and some half siblings. Some that I know, some that I don’t know. Yeah. So, and that’s kind of been a pattern in my family too. And I think it’s always been out of protection and out of a good place. You know, knowing things as a kid, obviously kids don’t need to know everything. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned more about the family and about things. And for me, that translated into just furthering my trust, my trust issues with the world and, you know, things like that. And, you know, they say those things.

JEFF JOHNSON: I’m glad you put it that way. There is that. I mean, I can, I can totally relate, Maddie, there is that time when, you know, you look up to your parents as if, well, we say they hung the moon. You know what I mean? There is everything, you know, and everything comes from them. And there are the protectors and the best teachers and all of that sort of thing. And they are wonderful. And I firmly believe, you know, everybody out there is doing the best they can with the tools that they have. Some of them don’t have the best tools in the world, but they’re doing the best they can with whatever those tools are. But when you come into that realization that your parents are human, you know, you get a little bit older and you start to see a little bit of a chink in the armor and you’re like, hmm, they’re not handling that the way my younger ones. Parents are handling that and you always said and you get to this realization that, well, maybe they’re not 100% perfect with every decision that they’ve ever made. And that does, that changes the relationship a little bit too. And I think it’s a little bit more difficult to take a love away, but it changes the perspective. You know what I mean? I’m not that very well, but I think you get what I’m.

MADELINE DEAN: Well, I think it has to change the relationship because if you’re going to grow, you know, and it sounds harsh to say the word stick, you know, and that’s, it’s just. Just an example, but like if you were sick, you wouldn’t go if you weren’t sick, you wouldn’t go around sick people. Or if you’re trying to get well, you wouldn’t stay around sick people, you know, and so I think the relationship has to change on a certain level and not where something that saved my life that I wasn’t able to do before or I lost the ability to do. I had felt like, but it was just setting boundaries and being able to ask for help and, yeah, just boundaries is a huge one that has changed my life. And I think that so many people struggle with boundaries and, and then you coupled out with family relationships that are very hard. You know, that’s, yeah, that’s been a huge struggle, but I definitely, I hold, I held my mom specifically on a pedestal. And I remember the moment when I was 21 and I was in a dialectical behavioral therapy session and something was said and it clicked for just a moment. And that’s all it took was, you know, to change my perception, just one degree and see that my mother was human being before me. And she’d been there a lot of hard stuff and she always has done the best she could. And I guarantee that she would protect me from anything if given the chance, you know, so I have nothing but love for my family. I mean, and there’s been, there’s been so much trauma, you know, even as an adult that’s been caused by my mental illness and addiction. And I take responsibility for my mental illness and my addiction, you know, because if I focus on other people’s, I will be crazy all the time. You know, because if I’m waiting for everybody else to get well, I’ll never get well. So I focus on mine and I like to talk about my, my own and that’s something that’s been like always been a huge sign for me that I want better for myself is well one, I’m constantly surrounded by self help books. Whether it’s physical books or listening to YouTube or podcasts or anything else, you know, I’m constantly trying to better myself and, and yeah, so I’ll go back just a little bit. I graduated high school just barely with the help of the judicial system because around, yes, around, yes, and West, around age, 15, 16 is where I kind of just decided that. I no longer was going to participate in my sports, I wasn’t going to listen to my parents, I was going to hang out with my friends, and that was what was most important to me. You know, in retrospect, I was definitely hunting running and hiding from a lot of feelings and a lot of fear and, yeah, so I decided that the streets were where I wanted to be. And my dad always tells me he’s the friend, the word friend very loosely, you know, and I did for a long time, I thought these people were my friends. Absolutely, we’re not my friends because friends of mine, I was shown and taught growing up. I mean, I was lucky to have a few of them. My sister had a core group of five really good friends. My grandma was our Girl Scout leader, and I thought I was a part of their troop. So, you know, these are, I had great examples of, you know, good relationships and good friendships and what they should look like. And then a good relationship, especially good friendship. If you’re doing something that’s harmful to yourself and that friend doesn’t mention it to you, I would look at that friendship, you know, and learn because I want to be surrounded by people that are either working to go where I’m going or they’re ahead of me, you know, and that’s not always

JEFF JOHNSON: told my kids and my niece’s nephews and all of that. You’re the average of the five closest friends that you have, and so you need to be really, really careful who you surround yourself with.

MADELINE DEAN: Yes, yes, I was so happy with you.

JEFF JOHNSON: You thought you were making a good choice, but you really weren’t.

MADELINE DEAN: No, no, not making a good choice. But these people gave me attention, and I found escape through alcohol, through smoking weed. And I had thought about it as a kid, you know, like my six grade dare speech was chosen, you know, to because it was heartfelt, you know, I really sincerely thought I was such a good athlete. I was asked to be on the Olympic development program for the state of Iowa. You know, people try out for that. I was asked to come try out.

JEFF JOHNSON: For soccer

MADELINE DEAN: for soccer. Soccer was my main thing that I really got into as a freshman at Valley, Southwoods, I played varsity soccer at Valley and they had been undefeated for like five years or something crazy. So, you know, there were a lot of pressure there, but it was fun. I got scholarship into playing traveling soccer because of my skill. And if I put my mind towards anything, I could get great at it. And then I had that natural athletic ability. And I was a great team player and I love sports. I still to this day, I still love sports. And it’s been kind of a saving grace to not necessarily sports, but just the fact that remembering that in my heart, I’m an athlete. As a child, I was an athlete and it doesn’t matter if I play professional sports or you know, whatever it is.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, I’m going to jump in here again, Maddie. I’m sorry. I’m like, I like to leave you. I can get better interview people because all I do is interrupt all the time, but I’m fast. I’m with your story. So I’m interrupt and you know, you say that’s important to you, that athlete bit and you talk about that from the time that you were a kid and the abuse is going on and you’re a good athlete. You’re a dancer and you’re playing tackle football and you’re playing soccer and you’re playing on it. And what you just chronicle there. You know, one of the one of my favorite scripture verses from the Bible is Romans 11, 29 and it says, God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. So what that means is to me is that everybody was sent here with the purpose. Everybody was sent here with remarkable gifts from God. And your gifts and your call are irrevocable. Now that athletic ability, I would say, is not to some total of everything that Maddie is. But the fact that he made you into an athlete and gave you excellence in that realm, so many of us just don’t enjoy is that stands out. And I think that that’s wonderful that you still recognize that. So anyway, you went through. So you go through all of this and you end up on the streets. Was that during high school or was that after?

MADELINE DEAN: During high school and during high school, my mom would call the cops. They come looking for me. They’d reel me in. Sometimes I’d be down the street. One time I was almost to Missouri. You know, I just thought I could do whatever I wanted. I thought it didn’t matter. That’s when, you know, my dad tried to step in at one point and they were going to send me to Catholic school up in Rochester, Minnesota and send me to high school there. And he was going to try and straighten me out. And now I’m knowing him. He might have. He might have straight me out. But you know, I resisted that. I fought it and I was manipulative. My mom told me for a young age, you know, you could be a great lawyer and they do something great. You could do this. You could do that. And then later in my if it was, you know, you could have been a good lawyer and now you still could be. I guess she still holds that truth. But she says you could have been a good lawyer and I just need one.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay. That’s fun.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah. Yeah. Is it why don’t feel it? But yeah, that’s the thing about mom is she is one of the funniest people I know and just dry, dark. It’s just funny. And you got to catch it. She’s quick. But, you know, she can bring life to a situation. And that’s where it’s like, you know, I was given all these tools through and I’ll get to that. Like, my it’s our demand for this alcoholism during that time. They were doing everything they could, you know, I was in youthful fenders. I was I had a tracker. I was being sent to therapy. Everybody was trying to talk to me. I just I at that point I had my mind made up, you know, and I was very close off. And I think that’s what my big thing that my big moment of courage is deciding to change. And that is

JEFF JOHNSON: it might sound like this is and you’re answering the question now. What’s the most courageous thing I’ve ever done?

MADELINE DEAN: Yes, I’ll just all I’ll nail that and then we can yeah, I can know you know

JEFF JOHNSON: you won’t you won’t you, Madeline, you’re going to stop here for one second before you get that question. I want you to define courage first because I want to be able to put that in context and then forgive me. We’ll get right back where you were. So how do you define courage? What does that mean to you?

MADELINE DEAN: So for me and I want this to reach all listeners. I myself grew up in a Lutheran church. I go to Lutheran Church of Hope in West and Wain every Sunday. I can involve there when I can and you know in my house we still very Christmas. There was also a menorah put up because my great grandfather was Jewish and you live in the house. You know we were very always open to religion. I was I chose the path of being as open as I possibly could you know so there were things that I didn’t agree with when it came to the regular church or the Lutheran church or just Christianity in general. And maybe things I didn’t understand but I wasn’t going to let that hold me back from what pass what could be so you know and that’s that that comes down to it. So so courage. Courage for me is and I just want to preface that because my faith does have something to do with my definition of courage. Courage you know is being strong doing the things that are going to make the change you know over and over and it’s the little things I believe courage is courage is an act. First of all you know to be courageous is an act for a reason because you’re doing something and you’re doing something and usually for me it looks like doing something over and over and over waiting for change waiting for something to happen. But God has come into that for me and I can use the word God and associate that in my mind which whoever is running things out there that isn’t me you know. I love the church and I know that it’s not me so that’s exactly that’s that’s kind of where but I love the Bible and I love going to church and. You know there’s so many lessons held in all of it but I also love studying Eastern scriptures and things like that because I believe that there’s a little truth and everything and if I can bring it together and if it works for me you know works for me but I do pray to God and I do you know that was something that was hard for me is almost like embarrassing to admit that. You know and that’s just crazy

JEFF JOHNSON: so I heard you say I heard you say Madeline this is wonderful I heard you say courage has strength in it courage has action in it courage has persistence in it because you said it was the small things over and over again courage has hope in it. Because you’re wanting something to change you wanting to affect some kind of change and courage has faith in it I heard you talk about those five things it might read in that correctly

MADELINE DEAN: yes

JEFF JOHNSON: that’s a beautiful definition of courage okay now we can get back into the story after I’ve so so horribly interrupted you I’m so sorry. Okay so I want to ask the question then Madeline Dean and we’ve got so much more to talk about on the other side of the Madeline Dean what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.

MADELINE DEAN: So the most courageous thing that I’ve ever done is decide to change and through you know that could be very broad so I’m going to say just through honesty through being honest with myself through being honest with the people around me. And completely honest you know obviously we all know there’s times when certain things don’t need to be shared and things like that but really focusing on becoming impeccable with my word. You know I think that choosing to do that is so courageous and it’s the first step that holds back so many people from change

JEFF JOHNSON: so impeccable with your word talk more about that because I think you said a very powerful thing Leonard wow.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah well I was given a copy of the four agreements when I was young and ancient told tech wisdom says you know that you should be impeccable with your word always do your best that you should of course they would slip my mind right now you should always do your best you should be impeccable with your word you should not make assumptions and you should not take things personally. So those are four things that I thought wow I’ve read all these help books and you know they’re like and that’s another part of courage is systems you know you have to put systems in place to affect change and this was something that caught my attention because it said right in the first pages you don’t have to wait for change if you apply these things immediately you can have change. And I thought I need that you know I’d always been one for Instagram application so you know and I and I thoroughly understood what they meant you know it’s like the second I started speaking the truth into wherever I was I mean people got uncomfortable some people you know but eventually it came to people being able to huge aspect of trust. And huge aspect of my relationships and my authenticity and you know I always thought that my authenticity was a guiding value but without that complete truth to others and to myself authenticity is not real so no longer authentic. So I that was kind of a wake up call for me and have I been perfect at it since yeah right. I’m human

JEFF JOHNSON: and not perfection

MADELINE DEAN: exactly that’s something that I was taught and and I hold on to dearly and and even when you ask me to be on your podcast I thought well you know what I wish I was in a better place in life right now I wish I could say well I’m doing this and I’ve done this. And you know just all the things and then I and then I thought that that’s been part of my issue is what am I measuring myself by you know and that’s where God and religion has come into because I want to measure myself you know by something that’s not worldly because I can I can reach those worldly goals. And and then there’s a there’s a thing about when you reach a goal to how you slow down you know it’s like when you’re losing weight and everyone tells you oh you look so good and then you see a cooking you’re like oh I’ve lost all this weight and everyone’s told me how good I look I can just have this cookie you know it’s it’s so easy to slip back in that place when you have made change so lasting change is is I guess where I want to be courageous and make lasting change in my life and the life of others but yeah I didn’t realize I wasn’t I always had strong values I knew they were instilled in me at a young age but it wasn’t until I spent two years in Mitchellville due to my addiction you know it all culminated in me spending two years in Mitchellville a lot of time in county jails here in California or zone.

JEFF JOHNSON: For those just using

MADELINE DEAN: yeah yeah yeah paraphernalia or possessions I was a scared criminal I never wanted to commit crimes because my theory was they want to commit crimes so they can lock us up and then I will no longer be have access to the only thing that I thought was keeping me alive or was helping you know which eventually I had 16 turn to heroin you know and you wouldn’t think a 16 year old in West and wine would run into a lot of heroin but unfortunately I did and I can mince them that they didn’t give it to me I’d go somewhere else and reluctantly they did they’re much older than me and definitely new better and I say that a lot you know 15 year olds don’t make good decisions and that was a life decision that I made and it and it was due to not being honest if I if I’m you know if I trace it back I didn’t want to tell people how I was feeling I didn’t want to talk about what I was going through so I was drinking and then everyone was mad at me for drinking I was getting in trouble it was becoming a problem and I knew that I could get away with doing drugs it was a little bit more concealable and that was my honest to God thought process and also following that was so I can be the best daughter so that I can show up as the best sister you know it was never I mean of course it was selfish first but then it was always I was always thinking of others to a fault and especially my family but me my sister have a very unique bond we’re just very connected and so yeah it was hard putting her through the trauma of my my addiction everything like that.

JEFF JOHNSON: Madeline let me pull you back to what first of all let me interject with a question for you are you familiar with compound interest?

MADELINE DEAN: yes

JEFF JOHNSON: you know okay so you invest a little bit and the interest adds to it and then you keep investing and then over time the interest not only compounds with the principle but it compounds with the interest as well and things really escalate so it just goes to the moon quickly so things happen slowly and then at the end they happen really fast and that happens with I’ve heard it said that that happens with good decisions and with bad decisions so that’s why we got to be careful the decisions we make because I may I join you with the recovery thing I was unable to spend two years in Mitchellville but I’m like a recovering person with drugs and alcohol but and all of that happened very slowly in the beginning and then all of a sudden it happened really fast and did you feel the same thing when you were out on the out on the streets that this was kind of going and then one bad decision and one misdemeanor and then more lies and more things I don’t want to talk about I’m dealing with this now with drugs to deal with not only the baggage that I’m carrying but the convictions that I’ve just had and the time away from my folks and I’m disappointing everybody and then it just goes to the moon it does that relate?

MADELINE DEAN: precisely precisely and that was my cycle for a long time what was taking it into the bill before incarceration it was treatment centers the same thing in the guilt in the shame and the missing out and all that but yeah yeah so Mitchellville I ended up in Mitchellville because of a burglary charge and my mom had and except that had become almost you know acquaintances with the county attorney at this point and they decided that nothing was going to stop me except for 90-day shock in prison and that’s what she told my mom but that’s not exactly what happened they no longer do those so I spent one year my first time and since I had a victim on my crime since there was a burglary I went in front of the parole board I spoke with them and I was released in about like a year and a few months it took to get released then I was only out for a few months and I returned back and I looked at that and you know I used to feel a lot of shame about that so I pretty much spent and then I spent one other entire year there after I went back and about seven months in county prior so there’s some years I’ve spent behind bars you know if we just want to round down I’d say I’ve spent five years incarcerated all around I’ve spent at least a year of that in solitary confinement which has been a huge part of my journey with God too

JEFF JOHNSON: why solitary

MADELINE DEAN: so even in there I was

JEFF JOHNSON: I’m probing Madeline and you’re under no obligation to answer any of these questions

MADELINE DEAN: yeah yeah yeah I think I was coping in there the best way I knew how I was scared I wanted to seem tough I wanted to seem like I knew what I was doing and I was in charge and you know as with everywhere in life people gravitated towards me and instead of using that for good at all times I sometimes used it for bad you know and there was a lot of drug use that went on especially in the jail not as much in the prison but even there I found it and found myself in the hole due to using drugs because it’s there and there’s not signs you know saying here there’s help this way and if you want to better yourself while you’re here do this or anything like that you know you’re pretty much shuffled through and so luckily I sought out some stuff while I was there because there is I don’t want to say that the whole criminal system is wrong because there’s so many people that work day in and day out to make it work and put their lives on the line and also just like make such a difference by showing compassion and things like that because the amount of people that we have incarcerated is astronomical in this country.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yes yes

MADELINE DEAN: and and it’s right up there with the mental health and and what I learned from being in Mitchellville for two years is that we are housing our mental health patients there and there’s not any extra care for them either there so and it’s yeah so that’s something I saw I had insight now into some of the cracks in the system that I grew up believing in and justice has always been a strong value of mine. I think it’s just hardwired because I’ve tried to break it and it just doesn’t always like I have a natural inborn you know desire to see things right and wrong you know I know right and I know wrong and I don’t like to sit back and watch things happen when they’re wrong but there I was in a position where my voice had been taken away my credibility had been taken away you know so I did what I could while I was there but I do know my mission in life of mine is to bring awareness to the judicial system and and find some you know because I think that many people aren’t aware of what exactly is going on and how many people are actually being incarcerated and for how long and for and a lot of people are confused on the things that they offer there too you know I took college courses while I was there through Dean right and through Grinnell but both of those were through scholarships through donations and you know I was told they only put an application they only pick lifers they don’t if you’re a short term person they’re not going to choose you for a scholarship but put the application anyways and I got accepted so I started taking D map classes then there was an opportunity to take classes through Grinnell and I thought wow like Grinnell Grinnell college and I don’t know what to do. I did the essay, I did the second essay, I passed out of 800 girls, I was like 1-14 that got chosen and we got very lucky. Both classes that I took, we had professors that were traveling doing their summer at Vernel. So I got a professor from Canada and took a jazz appreciation class and then the second class that I got to start but Peroll during the middle of was a bioprocessor who had been featured on 60 minutes, like three or four times for his own nonprofit work and he was teaching criminal justice and he’s like first days like the reading list, I’m going to let you know right now is just a book of my, or is just a list of my favorite books. And I said cool, you know, and I had read some of them and had read a few of them. Luckily thank God I got my Peroll during that time but they were gracious enough to transfer my classes out into the real world with me that I could remotely finish them with them. So you know it was amazing. Ask the people that are working day in and day out to make a change that, yeah, that definitely needs to be recognized because.

JEFF JOHNSON: Sir, people you look up to. Let me ask you a question here, Madeline. So your definition of, or your answer to the question once the most courageous thing you’ve ever done was to decide to make a change in your life which, excuse me, given your story makes perfect sense. In anybody’s story it would make perfect sense. Can you put that to a date and a time or did that start when you got out of Mitchellville and you had some starts and stops and you’ve been continually doing that or do you know what I mean?

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah, yeah, totally. So when I got out of Mitchellville I decided that I would never go back to prison again. And that’s how strong our minds are. And like, so yeah, so I decided then and there that I wasn’t going to go back to Mitchellville and I decided that whatever it took, you know, so I, that was being honest with my parole officer from the beginning. I used to go in there thinking that it was an interview and that I had to be on my best behavior and be my perfect self and everything else. And I was scared of them. I went in there with a different attitude. I told her a little bit about my story. I told her a little bit about my truth. I gave her some of my tells, you know, and these things are coming out of my mouth and I’m thinking why are you telling on yourself? You know, but I did the best thing that I could have done because she walked with me for the next eight years to make sure that I, you know, made it to the end successfully. There was times when, you know, I could have been switched parole officers and she, you know, made sure that she stepped with me because I was honest. And I realized just in not one relationship, how big of a difference it made, even just in our interactions, they became, they became easier. I felt at ease.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah, it was an immediate change with other people being impeccable with your word can, and if you haven’t been for a long time or if you’ve done stuff that people can hold against you.

MADELINE DEAN: You know, being impeccable with my word wasn’t always easy at first and it wasn’t always taking correctly. Even though I always worked on the delivery and I was never, you know, I tried not to be brash or anything like that, but, you know, people don’t always like to hear the truth. And sometimes it takes, you know, a moment to digest it and be able to come back to it. And so, you know, even sharing my own truths, I had to realize that was hard for other people. Even if they were my truths and I thought, oh, I’m doing the hard work here, I had to be considerate also of, you know, the people around me and just, and just know my audience, you know, know that I needed to talk to a therapist. And I got involved in, you know, 12 steps and got a sponsor. And I asked people to hold for me, you know, because I really realized the strength and mentorship and I would attribute that to my grandfather just always telling me that if you need something, ask the worst answer you’re going to get is no. And I knew that I needed something and I knew that I didn’t want to be like the people I had been around. I didn’t want to be like the people I was in treatment, no fence, you know. And I just, I wanted to, I was like those people, you know, and I am, I still am. We’re like, we are the same. But I wanted to, I wanted to change my surroundings, I should say better. I really wanted to change my surroundings. And I felt that when I was at church. Yeah, so I found different ways to try to implement being honest and changing in small ways. Have I been perfect at it? Absolutely not. Have I run into a lot of things that, you know, I could point fingers and blame and do things like that? Sure. But, you know, the reality of it is when I look at my part in the situation, I was out of alignment with God. And I was still trying to run the show. I would surrender and I would, you know, be doing what I need to do, but still trying to control things. And I think that’s been where, I mean, like I said earlier, alcoholism was a symptom. You know, and these are symptoms because now I get to look inside and realize that there’s something wrong. And I want to look inside and figure out what exactly it is, you know, and I think that my main thing that I wanted was I want to be spiritually okay. I want to be mentally okay and I want to be physically okay. I had gotten sober and for the last five years, I’ve, I’ve, last six years, I stayed sober all but three times and three times that I relapsed. I relapsed and used once and didn’t use again. And you know, that was a clear indicator to me that that was no longer going to work for me. That was no longer going to cut it. So you know, my mom always said relapses are part of recovery and I just thought it was another dumb slogan to make me feel better or something. But it hit me, you know, and I realized without those moments, I could have been sitting here for the next 10, 20 years, fantasizing about maybe one day or, you know, this or that. So, you know, I think that, yeah, God interjects in moments and that’s undeniable, you know, people don’t even got something interjects, you know, there is something.

JEFF JOHNSON: This is, I, I, I get it, Madeline and I like the, and I like the way you define that in the beginning. I wasn’t quite sure how that applied but what you’re talking about is you’re making a decision to change your life while you’re still incarcerated. You get out of Mitchellville and you’re not 100% fixed but you’re definitely like this is a mindset. So, you define courage as it takes strength, you talked about courage as an action, it’s something that you do. So, it’s not just you thinking about living a better life and saying no to drugs and alcohol and getting help with mental illness or anything like that, it’s actively pursuing those things, you know, you’re talking about your grandpa and finding a mentor and people that, you know, your parole officer. I mean, all of that fits and it makes sense. You talked about courage having persistence in it where you don’t quit even though you might have a setback and that sort of thing, having hope in it that you’re being drawn towards something and that last, that fifth element of faith. I mean, yeah, and you just said it just how you said

MADELINE DEAN: I think the thing that was missing was I wasn’t leaning on God, I wasn’t trusting in God the way that I should.

JEFF JOHNSON: And so, I get it. This is, this is really curious to me because a lot of time what’s the most courageous thing I’ve done, it’s this and it happened on this day and this was the thing I did. Now, some people have answered it in a contextual way that it happened over a period of time, but yours is even more that it’s like it’s a mindset like courage for you as a mindset and I’m no longer staying where I’m at, you know, and I’m growing and I’m in its progress, not perfection, not to give, not to give yourself license to go back out with bad behavior because we know where that compound interest gets you, you know, it’s bad again in a hurry but I do.

MADELINE DEAN: You have a therapy practice on the side, Jeff.

JEFF JOHNSON: Do I?

MADELINE DEAN: You said you have a therapy practice on the side.

JEFF JOHNSON: No, you’re gimme, you’re gimme. That looked very well, thank you. You’re giving me a lot of insight here, Madeline.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: I’m curious though. I’m just so thank you. I’m curious. How do you, how, how does that get you to the program change course? Because that’s how I know you, that’s where I was inspired by you when you got up and gave a graduation address. So how old were you when you got out of Mitchelville?

MADELINE DEAN: So I was, it was during COVID that I was in Mitchelville and I want to say I got out around 23. So that would have been 13, 23. Yeah, I got out around 23. So about three years ago, or no, no, no, it was long, it was before that. I got out 21, sorry, 21. So it’s been about, yeah, five years.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay, so and you and you joined change course a year ago?

MADELINE DEAN: I joined in change course. I started the process in December and I was in the theta class that started January 5th and it was six months till June 5th. Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay, so talk to our listeners about how you got into change course because I think that’s very, that’ll be insightful as well.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah, yeah. So like, like I mentioned, you know, and I could go all over the place. So I appreciate you really needed. But you know, I’ve mentioned, you know, mental health was a big part. And and then my addiction was a huge symptom for me to like a big flashing light. Hey, look over here. You have some emotional issues going on. They’re not being addressed. Let’s handle them. And through therapy and through other recovering, alcoholics, you know, I’ve made so much progress. I was clean for two and a half years and I was around somebody that I knew from a 12 step group. And I was struggling and I decided that I was going to relapse. I relapsed and immediately went to jail and my mom always says somebody’s looking out for you and I’m like, I can’t get away with anything. But you know, it’s in retrospect, I’m like, thank God because I’ve been in there with women who are facing, you know, spreading the rest of their life because they were passengers in a car driving home from a bar, you know, and kill people. Like there, it could have been anything. So, you know, I think I’d fern my time. And then I really took advantage of it too. But you know, while I was there, I did a license apprenticeship. I went to college. I trained dogs for the ARL. I voluntarily did therapy because we had a psychologist on staff that nobody was utilizing, you know. So I did all those things I was there. So I made some progress. When I got out, I leaned on medically assisted treatment. That’s something that I speak out about because it’s very taboo. But if you are in need of medically assisted treatment or you are taking medically assisted treatment, it’s not just medicine. It involves all kinds of therapies and other things too. So, yeah, I mean, that’s something that I, because I was involved in that, I felt I got in my own head about being not being a part of recovery because of things like that. So that’s something huge that I talk out about, you know. If you need medication, just like a diabetic, you know, we take our medication. And so, yeah. But getting back to the question, you know, yeah, you said it, but I had made my mind up in Mitchellville and you could see through my actions. I started being courageous there, honestly, because I was disliked for a while and it’s a small little community. It’s five to eight hundred women. I was disliked because I was getting up at five in the morning to work out. I was going to college. I was training dogs and I was doing well. People didn’t like that at first, but slowly people did start to gravitate towards me and know that they could come to me if they wanted to change. And I became a mentor of sorts in there. And so I did realize the power of mentorship and that it doesn’t matter where you are. Exactly. Like I mentioned earlier, like I want to be in the perfect place to get on this podcast. And I’ve done that for years with old friends, you know, oh, once I get my life perfect, I’ll reach back out to them, but all they want is their friend, you know. And so that’s where you have to be courageous and show up authentically everywhere you are, you know, at all times. Yeah, I’ve definitely slipped and I’ve definitely not been perfect. But what it comes down to to me is it’s a mindset, like you said, it’s my thoughts. My feelings are valid. My emotions are not always, you know, and if I can wait a moment and not react strictly on emotion and bring some logic in, suddenly I become much more wise, you know. And so it’s been slowing down for me, which I did with ADHD, you know, that was me. It was the hyperactive bouncing off the walls, you know, but it’s definitely been astralial changing my own mindset. But our brains are amazing and neuroplasticity is real. And that’s how, you know, we all the bad habits I trained, if I could train myself to be sick, I can train myself to be well, you know. And so I did realize at that point it was a choice. And I meant letting go of any excuses, any blame, any and all excuses actually. Because if I decided one excuse would be good enough, then all excuses were good enough. You know, so there was times that, you know, that meant doing stuff when I didn’t want to, that meant doing stuff when I thought, are people going to wonder why should be doing that when something much more important is going on? You know, like I mentioned, like exercise and being an athlete has been my outlet. I’ve learned so much about trauma and the body and energy and how much we store in our body. So if I need to exercise, you know, prior to something important or if I need to, you know, take those steps, like I’ve learned myself. And I think it’s so silly, they’ve talked about meditation for so long. I don’t remember time in my life, I didn’t hear about meditation. And then the second thing that I heard the most about meditation is, I can’t meditate. I suck at meditation. You know, that’s people’s common response. And my big theory on that is that it is a life hack for so many reasons, but especially for, you know, as Christians, and as, you know, you can pray and pray and pray, but how often do you stop and listen in silence? For God’s answer, you know, or for God’s guidance. And I was, you know, that’s part of me. Thank you. That was part of me being honest, which was what was my voice and which was the sound voice and the voice of somebody who loves me and it would protect me. And so that,

JEFF JOHNSON: I’m just thinking the person that I interviewed, the person that I interviewed before you, the podcast that was up the week before this one, Ayers, is Dr. Donald Eswitney who wrote a book on spiritual disciplines and all kinds, you know, Bible reading and prayer and meditation and journaling and fasting and all of that kind of stuff. And I asked him what he was working on and his next book is about meditation and how important and how critical that is, just exactly what you, people can listen to that podcast, but it’s exactly what you’re talking about, Madeline. You and Dr. Whitney are speaking the same language. It’s so important to listen to God.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah. And I think it’s something that’s very hard for a lot of us. Like I had mentioned, I spent over a year in solitary confinement by myself and, you know, thankfully to my family, phone calls to them once in a while and books is what got me through that and then God in my relationship with God. And when I went into that, I was, you know, using drugs, I was acting out, I was acting out character, I was not following my values and then I was put in his room by myself. And it’s amazing how quickly you can, your mind becomes sober, you know, and you realize that I had never woke up and prayed in the morning. I was taught, you know, now lay me down to sleep real or my soul to keep. That’s what I was taught as a kid. I wasn’t taught to pray in the morning. Here in life, I was told to pray whenever you need to, you know, but the first thing I did when I woke up in that room to not panic out of pure anxiety and claustrophobia was started praying, getting on my knees and praying. And like this prayer just came to me and it was, God, please help me to be curious today. And that’s all. That’s all I asked for. I just want to be curious and open to whatever information I come across. And then I just kept praying that every day and like, I don’t know where that prayer came from. And later I realized how profound it was, you know, because still today I pray for that. Because if I don’t go into a day, curious, minded, if I go into it, having it all figured out and closed off, my day, it’s two different tracks, you know. And yes, being confident and being sure of yourself and knowing what you’re doing are important things, but also a balance of being open to the world around you and that you might not know everything and everything that you learned might not be correct. You know, that’s where change was really, really hard for me. You know, they talk about it, you know, give me a boy for seven years and I’ll give you the man. I think some of it really is super ingrained, but with work, I’ve worked through it. I’ve worked through some, I’ve worked through that trauma. I can openly talk about it and I can tell other people like it is okay, you know. And it felt icky. Of course, it felt icky. And it even felt icky to share it on here. But I knew immediately after that I was safe, you know, that I was forgiven and then anybody who was offended, you know, they’ll also be forgiven, you know, and eventually it might touch them. But, you know, I talk about it because that’s what I think the generational trauma that was passed down was nothing out of harm, but it was just protection. Protect the kids, protect the family, protect everybody, nothing bad’s happening. It’s all okay. And living in a world like that, when somebody’s taking care of it, it’s great. But then once you hit adulthood or, you know, anything like that, or you just have the ability to make your own decisions or think you do, then it can get squirrely pretty fast.

JEFF JOHNSON: And I went where you bet very transparent with this whole cock and I could just go on forever. And I do hope to have you back, but I probably need to bring this to a close at some point. I got a couple more questions, two more questions that I’m going to let you go. Is that okay?

MADELINE DEAN: Yes, of course. Yes.

JEFF JOHNSON: So we’ve talked about this continuum, given your definition of courage, you know, that it’s a mindset and deciding to change. That’s the most courageous thing. And in a lot of ways, I feel like you’re just, I don’t even know if you’re at the middle of that or if you’re at the beginning of that, but it’s a continuum for you. And it started, you know, with the incarceration thing and getting out and making a decision. And like you said, you know, you’ve had some bumps and some starts and some whatever, but you’re not stopping, you know, and you’re continuing to embrace that and you’re continuing to do that. So I want to ask you a really bold question. Why did God put you here? What’s in store for you for the next 10 years? What’s God put on your heart that you need to be doing? Is it, it’s going somewhere for sure?

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah. Every day as I build my self-esteem and myself worth back up by every little compound interest, you know, every little action, I feel more self-motivated to accomplish what God has put on my heart and I’ve always been motivated by others, but God has always put on my heart that you need to tell your story. You need to especially talk to young people because I knew exactly what it was like to be young and I mean, everyone does, but you know, they say that your emotional, you know, your emotional well-being can be stunted by addiction and things like that and I’ve had to work at that, but I can still relate, I believe, you know, I still know what it felt like in those moments, those decisions that I was making. They didn’t feel like life’s long ones, but they were. And then, you know, I would have, my God wants me, I believe, to just be honest and to ask questions like for one, at a change course, they offered a free spiritual development and I was a lot of a sit in there and say, hey, you guys, I love the Bible, I love coming to church, I love everything that they talk about, but I get a little bit confused when they start talking about resurrection and dying on the cross and things like that, you know, and I got to be honest about those things and that was scary, but you know, it was a growth moment and I got to realize, you know, that it’s okay to believe what I believe and take parts of and pieces from all kinds of things. And you know, mostly I lean on God and on the Bible and Zen Buddhism, those are my, those are my two main, my mainstays. And I know that God has put on my heart to speak truth, to speak truth into the world about what is going on with mental health and how we’re handling it, what is going on with children and medication, what is going on with addiction and then in that leading incarceration. And then specifically what’s going on after incarceration, which is where we met, which is something that you are personally working on, which, you know, you had my heart from the beginning because that has been a, that’s what God put on my heart, you know, is to, is to not leave these people behind, it’s almost like survivor’s guilt. You know, I had a roommate in there for a year who will die in there, you know, and I had one person left her grandmother, but I personally chased down the ward and asked if I could have correspondence because films can’t talk to felons, you know, and so we’ve maintained correspondence because, you know, once her grandmother dies, who does she have, you know, things like that. So I had some survivor’s guilt, but I thought like let’s channel that, because guilt and shame has been my demise for so long, let’s channel that. And I don’t know exactly how it looks, but I do know that I have a lot of great people, you know, that have access to a lot of great things. I had a great counselor who now works at the, you know, Iowa Department of Mental Health Awareness Mental Health. I’m going to say it wrong, so I’m not going to say it, but you know, she’s working personally on that mission, you know, and of course I love to talk about addiction and things like that, but it is so taboo and it is something that I do want to leave in my past. So I like to look at it more deeply, like yes, there was an addiction, but let’s look at what the actual problem was. And you know, like I had mentioned earlier, my biggest thing is I think God wants me to be spiritually well, emotionally well and physically well. So that way I can carry a message and usually God puts a message on my heart. But I also am open. I can read one scripture and then go follow it up and see what, you know, they say in Hinduism, see what they say, you know, because perspective has been what has also been the outcome of this courage. I’ve gained perspective and it hasn’t been, you know, a giant leap to the other side to see things greatly. It’s been 1%, 1 little inch at a time. And I went through change course. I got my diploma through Penn Foster Academy for medical billing and coding. Right now I’m studying to take the national exam, which I will be taking here in the next month and then I’m applying for jobs. And so yeah, like I said at the beginning, I wanted to be in a perfect place to say yes, I’m successful. I’m a success star. This is going great. You know what I am a success story, no matter where I am. You know, and I had to tell somebody that yesterday, you know, like it doesn’t matter if you have 20 years of sobriety or you know, 20 days of sobriety. Sometimes the person with 20 days can say the right thing, you know, so I just think time does matter and it counts for something, especially with sobriety. But I just, it’s like, it’s that even translates into what I’m talking about, you know, just.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yeah, and I’m going to interrupt you again, Madeline, because that’s, you’ve said another profound thing. I was, I was in a recovery meeting a while ago and there was somebody in there that had 20 days. Let’s say I could forget what the actual number was. And he said that he was thinking that he had nothing to offer because somebody else was just brand new. And they were asking him for help and he said, I thought, what do I have to offer? And that guy’s sponsor said to him, you know how to stay clean and sober for 20 days. You are perfectly equipped with that. So you can tell this guy all day long, how do you stay sober for 20 days because you’ve just done it. And, and Madeline, if you’ll allow me the thing that I think is really impressive about your story is because you’ve defined it the way that you have the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. We are taking a snapshot of you while you are in the middle of it or any of it or somewhere along the continuum. And so I think everybody that’s listening here says that lady has a lot to tell me about what it is to be courageous in real time. And so I can’t thank you enough for how transparent you are. The last question I’m going to ask you.

MADELINE DEAN: Yes.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay. This is going to sound funny. It’s going to sound funny. Is I see you got some tattoos. And I’m always impressed with people that have tattoos because I’m, I’m so tender, this Swedish skin. I don’t have one single tattoo. I’m going to get a tattoo. Here’s the tattoo I’m going to get. I’m going to get one in the center of my chest at some point and it’s going to be a QR code so that the EMTs can scan it. And the QR code is going to say keep comfortable. Do not recess at the day. I was, I think that would be a funny. Do you know what I mean? That would be a nice little green art. Anyway. Thank you for, thank you for taking care of me. Well, something like that. But anyway, the, the, the, I always think they’re so hard, but I’m curious. What’s your, what’s your favorite tattoo? What’s, tell me all I’m just tell me what the most fate of your favorite one is.

MADELINE DEAN: I get the most compliments on this one, which was just a drawing my friend Sam did and he did it in his kitchen and it’s, it’s the sun in the moon.

JEFF JOHNSON: Okay.

MADELINE DEAN: I get the most compliments on that one, but I just got a new one on my leg two days ago. So now this one’s my favorite.

JEFF JOHNSON: You guys can, you guys listening, can’t see this, but I’m getting a view of these beautiful tattoos. Okay.

MADELINE DEAN: I’m getting a pot, a terracotta pot, but it has a design painted on it and then it’s full of foliage and foliage and, and being grounded and being, that’s something that’s huge for me. You know, talk about meditation prayer, grounding to the earth. You know, if you don’t guard in or anything like that, getting outside and getting barefoot and getting connected to the earth is worth so much. I can, I just have to throw that in there because you might think I’m nuts, but if you try it, it’s life changing and I know, I know for me, that’s grass as they say.

JEFF JOHNSON: It’s grass.

MADELINE DEAN: Yes, yes. God’s important, but I’ve learned a lot from a lot of different spiritual practices, metaphysical practices, things like that. And, you know, I take what works for me. So I don’t want anybody hearing this to think that I don’t believe in God or that I, you know, that I only believe in God. I believe in a God that is, that we’re all talking about the same thing. That’s what I really believe. I really hope that we’re all talking about the same thing and we’re all just trying to explain it the best we can. Yeah, that’s something I had to let go of is I might not be able to explain it, but I’m going to have to form a relationship with it. So forming that relationship has been why I am, I would like to say a little bit past the beginning more towards, I would say getting towards the middle, just because them, like the changes, might not be on the outside, but a lot of them have been in here. So only I can honestly say that. And I hope through my honesty and authenticity that’s something that you’re like, oh, I think she would take an accurate account and share that with me. But I definitely am guided by my values and my values are in alignment with what Jesus. So I can’t deny that. Yeah.

JEFF JOHNSON: Well, when I asked you to be on this podcast, I’ve been chasing you down since I saw you at the graduation and I got a chance to talk to you. I told you one of my favorite quotes and people that are listening have heard me share this before. One of my favorite quotes is by Leonard Ravenhill and he said, people that have an experience with God are never at the mercy of somebody with an argument. And I told you the thing about it is when you see Jesus on somebody, when you see somebody that’s been pulled out of the fire, when you see somebody that said yes to him and is being obedient and is living a new life and breathing new oxygen, you can’t hide it. The whole world can see it. It doesn’t even matter what you say. You could read the phone book and people are going to be able to pick up on that. And I don’t want to slobber on you too much, Madeline, but I’m going to, I guess, because you got it on you and it’s wonderful to see. And what it is is it’s a huge encouragement, not only that, but what you’ve shared about the topic of courage is bold and very powerful. You’ve got a testimony and you’re shepherding it very well. And I’m just going to be out here praying for you. So Madeline Dean, woman of tremendous courage, thank you so much for sharing with us today.

MADELINE DEAN: Yeah, of course, thank you so much for having me. I hope every day that I get one percent better. And I remember the trusting God. And when I forget, I remind myself, you know, because it’s okay to jump back in at any moment. So I hope everyone has a wonderful day that I’ll listen to this. And yeah, and thank you so much for even inviting me and letting me push past that fear of there’s going to be no perfect time. The perfect time is now. And we had a wonderful conversation and I appreciate you very much.

JEFF JOHNSON: Yes, we did. Thank you.

JEFF JOHNSON: Hey, everybody. This is Jeff Poppin back in again. That was Madeline Dean with the primary interview and her answer to the courageous questions. You know, sometimes after people do the podcast, they think maybe I could have said something else or there’s something else that I wanted to add. I got a message from Madeline the day after I interviewed her and she said, Jeff, I think I might have left something out or I wanted to clarify some things. And she asked if she could send in an additional recording. And if I could add it to the end of the interview and I was happy to oblige. And the in a lot of regards, the next eight minutes that you’re going to hear could probably eclipse everything that we talked about in the interview. It’s so poignant and so beautiful that you’re really going to enjoy the end of this interview and what Madeline had to say. But I guess I don’t know if I even want to comment. But I will. I, we’re taking a look at people, everybody that’s interviewed here on the podcast in real time. So when we ask the question about courage, we understand that the story is not over yet. And there’s a lot more going on than we can ever hope to capture in just one quick little podcast. And so I definitely mean to honor everybody that we interview here. And especially in this case, Miss Madeline with something that she might want to add because she thinks that it is going to help clarify and add more value and recognizing that, you know, she’s processing her walk in real time as well. So I’m so happy that she sent this in and I’m so glad that we’re able to include it in the podcast. So let me hush up here. And this is what Madeline had to send to me to wrap up the podcast. And she did just a brilliant job. Thanks everybody for listening.

MADELINE DEAN: I just want to be very clear that I had a great childhood and I was so fortunate. And then through my drug use, I pushed my family away and they were at a point where they didn’t know what else to do. They tried everything. They’ve been there for everything. But it wasn’t until I was ready to get clean that I got clean. And that was after four years living on the streets bouncing around the west coast, not speaking to my family for months at a time. And I can’t imagine what that put my mother through. But she stuck by me through all of it. And then after that, I did a lot of incarceration in prison. And that’s been a process through different halfway houses, different treatment centers. And my family has showed up for me every time when I had nothing no clothes to wear. They bought me clothes. They showed up for my graduation ceremonies. Anything that they could do to be supportive they’ve done. So I just wanted that to be super clear. The main reason that I have a change in my life today and I have the courage to change is because I have a God that I believe in. And that God is not a God that I feel like I need to explain. And I always used to feel like I needed to explain my God or at least be able to identify it to myself. But I realized how detrimental that thought pattern was. And that’s been something courageous I’ve changed is just realizing that there is a God out there. And because I can’t identify it or explain it to you with assurance, it doesn’t mean that I’m running the show. And as soon as I sit down the reins, my life always becomes better. Like we’ve talked about 12 step programs and trying to run the show and always creating more chaos than good. And that was me through my addiction. I mentioned before that I used so that I could be the best sister so that I could be the best daughter. That’s how skewed my thinking was at that time. But also I do want to recognize psychiatrists who are willing to treat formerly drug addicted patients and not treat them with a bias because that has been a huge game changer in my life is getting a psychiatrist who actually knows me understands me and I’m free to talk with about my day to day and also my feelings, my emotions, the way my medications affect me. Whereas before I was treated badly from the beginning, the second I walked into a doctor anywhere in the Des Moines metro area, they had records of overdoses and immediately start asking me questions about my addiction, which after five years of mostly being in remission from opioid addiction, I believe that it was unfair to be treated like that. So finding the right psychiatrist has made a world of difference, getting on the right medications has made a world of difference. And believing in God has made all the difference. First in my relationship with myself, because by following God’s path instead of Madeline’s idea of what today needs to look like, I start to like who I am through small actions. And that’s courage is in those moments when I can’t see God, I have to feel God and know that I’m being guided and protected. What I like to remind myself of is that I’m 31 years old and I’ve been through stuff most people wouldn’t make it through more times than I can count. And that’s only to say that I’m clearly being protected. There’s clearly somebody or something looking out for me. There’s clearly a larger picture here for me. And my family walking through me, through my family walking through my addiction with me. The best way I can imagine paying them back for that would be to show them a good life, to show them that I can be successful, self-sufficient and happy and they no longer have to worry. So I’m going to use my new degree to get a position in my field of medical billing and coding. I plan to eventually work remote as I would love to start my own business as well. And these are realistic goals for me today. And there’s a few reasons for that. I’ve mentioned but another huge one is because of the people that I’m around. Thanks to the program that I went through introducing me to you, all the kind words of encouragement that you’ve given me and the introduction alone is enough to change the course of my life. So you really are truly a part of an amazing nonprofit and it shows a lot about your character, Jeff. I truly appreciate the time being interviewed today and I hope that I’ve said something that can sit well with people of all backgrounds and all walks of life. You don’t need to be drug addicted or have been incarcerated. You don’t need to relate in those specific ways but zoom out a little bit and imagine the feeling of wanting to do the best that you can do every day and not measuring up or feeling like you weren’t making the wrong decisions, knowing you’re making the wrong decisions. It’s no different than if I decide that I’m not going to eat junk food tomorrow and I do it anyways. I go to bed feeling bad about myself and that’s what this is all about. It is having the courage to make those tough decisions that in the moment are very hard. When you make them, you show courage. You model it to yourself and to others and that teaches you who you are. And I am Madeline and I am courageous.

ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on Courageus. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageus? Send us an email at infoatcrossroadsapologetics.com or infoatcrossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.