Java Journeys: Brewing Courage and Community with Michael Meggison

In this heartwarming episode of our podcast, we sit down with Michael Meggison at our favorite bustling coffee shop, where the aroma of freshly brewed coffee blends with tales of tenacity and faith. As a devoted family man, seasoned real estate agent, and fervent follower of Christ, Michael shares his insights on living courageously amidst life’s challenges. Over cups of our favorite coffee, we delve into a wide array of topics, revealing the depth of daily courage and the quiet strength that underpins Michael’s journey. Join us for an inspiring session that feels just like a cozy chat among long-time friends, infused with reflections on courage, community, and the things of the Lord.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the courageous Crossroads. So glad you could join us again today. This is a recording coming up of a conversation that I had with a good friend of mine, Michael Maguson. I refer to him as Meg’s. And I don’t know if you’ve got a friend like this, somebody that you can lean on, maybe somebody that you went to early on for advice about something, and then it turned into one of these relationships where it just really went back and forth and represented real camaraderie and a comfortable place for you. And that’s what I’ve got with my friend Meg’s. And we get together in a coffee shop. We’ll talk about that a little bit at the beginning of the podcast. And we just share life with each other and talk about things that are going on. 

Jeff Johnson:
So this is a little bit more of a just listening in, and we get to the topic of courage in a real organic way partway into the podcast. But I think you’re gonna get a lot out of this. And the thing I want to leave you with, a bit of encouragement I want to leave you with is God called us to be in community with each other. The first time he said something wasn’t good in the Bible was when he said that man was alone. That wasn’t good. So God wants us to be around people, around other strong Christian friends and just people that pour into us. And I’m blessed to count Megs as one of those folks in my life. And my prayer is that you find one, too, and also that you’re enriched and encouraged by this podcast. 

Jeff Johnson:
Thanks for joining us again today. And let’s jump in. And we’re in the middle of a coffee shop, so if you hear a little clanging and banging, that’s why. How’s Migs? 

Michael Meggison:
Migs is good, man. I just turned 55. I mean, it’s. It’s a good place. Walk into the slot, the next thing you know, you’re a little older and a little wiser. 

Jeff Johnson:
When was your birthday? You just turned 55. 

Michael Meggison:
March 22nd on Friday. 

Jeff Johnson:
Why did I not send you a happy birthday? 

Michael Meggison:
I don’t know. I’m on a social media fast, so that’s why I didn’t send me one. People didn’t know. Yeah. I mean, you started walking into 40 days of no social media, and you realize that your entire life is inundated with social media just non stop, constantly. But I learned so quickly that there’s no doubt. It’s impacted my soul. 

Jeff Johnson:
The social media. 

Michael Meggison:
Oh, my gosh, to just not do it is a thousand times better. I. I don’t think I’ll ever go back. I mean, it just. 30 some days is like. Yeah, that was actually darkening my understanding about how to walk around on the planet and not having done it for 35 or six days, you know, feel a little. I feel a little more chipper. 

Jeff Johnson:
Feel better. 

Michael Meggison:
I feel a little chipper. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s a comparison primer. That’s what it feels like to me. All that it does is it compares me with somebody else. And then I feel bad because I’m either not on vacation every day of the week, or I don’t have something to celebrate every five seconds or whatever. 

Michael Meggison:
Well, I read it because I like the Crypto boys, but the next thing you know, you’re down a conspiracy rabbit hole for three weeks, and it’s just, it’s. It’s just not edifying, it’s not helpful. And I think it surprised me. You know, I did that speaking fast. We started before we recorded on Maya angelou. Her strange seven years of silence makes my 40 days of not speaking seem kind of paltry. But it’s one of those places where you realize I talk a lot. 

Jeff Johnson:
Me too. 

Michael Meggison:
When you shut that valve off completely and it was like that, where you just all of a sudden become sensitized to something you become completely desensitized to and go, oh, my goodness. Goodness, I have no idea. Like, you look at your. You look at your family a little different when they’re on their phones because of course, now you’re officially superior. But it’s like, wow, this thing snuck in unaware, right? It’s like, what’s that passage when God’s looking at Cain and he goes, hey, little guy, sin crouches at your door and its desires for you, and you must master it. And I look at myself and I go, yeah, except for Twitter, right? No, Twitter also. And it’s, you know, who are we allowing to inform us? The Holy Spirit asked me a question those years ago. 

Michael Meggison:
Who have you given permission to tell you who you are? But I haven’t given permission. And when you stop feeding, or they call it a feed. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, that’s right. 

Michael Meggison:
They call it a feed. 

Jeff Johnson:
Social media feed. 

Michael Meggison:
This funny little feed trough. It’s like, wow, I don’t. I don’t want to eat a lot of that. And then in the same breath, you know, you do find these incredible thinkers in there. And so figuring out how to maybe cull it and not again. It doesn’t have to be an ascetic lifestyle. You don’t become the desert fathers and vanish for six months at a time. But it’s been quite an eye opener to recognize. Oh, this. This is actually impacting me in ways that I had no idea it was impacting me. Probably. Probably similar to, you know, however many potato chips eat a month or whatever. It’s like, my gosh, this is. This is extraordinary. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. I had a friend of mine who was on vacation and he was on the beach with his son, and I had sent him this funny text about how all the Internet was crashing and everything was going down because all the tech and whatever. And his son had made a comment to him about, wouldn’t that be fantastic if that happened? And he was struck because it was his son that was saying, please get rid of all this stuff. Wouldn’t it be great? 

Michael Meggison:
Right? Like, when was the last time I rode a horse? Like, this year, this. Actually, for this 40 days, one of the things I’ve been trying to do is go out and watch the eagles, like, south of the wash there, south of Segreville. Not to give away my secret stash, but, yeah, there they are. And I was out there one morning, Jeff, there were 50 bold eagles hanging out in the river. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, my gosh. 

Michael Meggison:
And doing their thing. And I just watch out, like, huh, what have I been doing with my life that is better than this? The list was short, I’ll be honest. I mean, it. It began to envelop just a little bit more my. My daylight over the course of the last month or so. And you learn so much watching them. Their patience to sit in a tree and wait is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. I watched one for an hour and 20. And he’d watch him and he’d kind of lean up against the branch. He couldn’t tell. I was like, oh, he’s actually taking a poop. All right. That’s not it. And then. And then he’s getting ready. He’s watching. You watch his eyes. You watch his head move just a little bit. It’s like, nope, he’s not quite ready. 

Michael Meggison:
And this would go on and on and on. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And, yeah, I think we just walk past a lot of that stuff if we’re not. If we’re not aware. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you and I, I’m sure the microphones are picking up a little bit of the background sound, so people are going to be able to take hotel that. We’re sitting in a coffee shop. So this is what we do. And we’ve done this for years and years, and it’s been an absolute blessing to me. So you send me a little text. Every once in a while, I’ll send you a little text. We’re getting together for coffee and then we come and we sit down when we’re on a good roll. We’re doing it every week. 

Michael Meggison:
That’s right. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s kind of rare, unfortunately. But we’re consistent over time. We’re consistent with this. And it’s because. Because we. Well, I’m not going to say what your thing is. I come to you because I love to hear what you have to say about the Lord. And I just love you and I love knowing about your family and everything that’s going on with your work and all that kind of stuff. And I just feel better when I walk out and I think there’s a whole big bucket of courage wrapped up in the middle of that thing. Yeah, that’s attractive because I get encouraged when I’m around you. So it must be there because there’s the root word. 

Michael Meggison:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
So what do you know about courage? How do you define courage? 

Michael Meggison:
We talked about this, I think, a few weeks ago when you first mentioned what you were up to here. I pulled this up this morning after you texted. Brene Brown’s spoken about the connection between. Between courage and its Latin roots. She explains that the word courage comes from the Latin word cor, which means heart. And in one of its earliest forms, courage meant to speak one’s mind by telling all of one’s heart. That is my definition of courage. And it has been. I just didn’t know it until I read it. 

Jeff Johnson:
So say it again in your words. Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
I think the righteous are as bold as a lion. And to speak. Speak one’s mind by telling all of one’s heart is rare. And so when Jesus invites us in his conversation with what’s the most important thing? He’s like, well, love. He’s a rabbi. He’s pointing at something. And the thing that he’s pointing at when he says Love is Deuteronomy 6, verses 4 to 12, the Shema, which we talked about it a bunch over the years. But this picture of love has a context were just alluding to it with the eagles. Right. Like I’m listening right now. And what time is it? It’s 8:28. And my son was born at 8:28. And 8:28 is the verse. Romans 8:28 is actually what we named our prayer house after. 

Michael Meggison:
And my wife and I were joking on our way to the hospital, wouldn’t it be cool if our child was born at 8:28? Well, there’s no chance to see section scheduled for 8. It certainly won’t be till 9. Sure enough, at exactly 8:28 that goes off. But sometimes God will whisper if I’m listening with my senses. And so to circle back to Deuteronomy 6, he says, Hear, O Israel. And that word, Shema is hear, or listen carefully, or listen spiritually. And that’s context of friendship. If it’s real friendship, if it’s actual friendship. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And so how many of us? I sat across the table from a friend of mine, November of last year, community leader, church leader, great guy, successful on all counts. I have nothing but nice things to say about it. I don’t even have an acceptance that. But I looked at him and I go, hey, tell me something, will ya? When was the last time somebody sat across the table from you for three hours with no agenda but to hear all of it, whatever it was that you needed to share? And he looked at me a bit like people look at me when I asked that question. And he said, well, that’s. That’s never actually happened. I mean, it almost break your damned heart when you stop and think about that. Because we’re gonna die one of these days, right? Right. 

Michael Meggison:
And I looked at him, I go, let’s do it. And it was November, and it’s now near April, nearing Easter. We’re in Holy Week here, and we haven’t done it. But an interesting thing happened on the way to the car. He said that was the best breakfast meeting of my year. And it was November. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. A little late in the year. 

Michael Meggison:
Why? Yeah, why? Because I think when we encounter God’s invitation to listen deeply to our hearts, something inside of us comes alive. And you and I have discovered that here. Like, hey, you know what happened When Jeff and I get together, we discover love. We love God, we love each other. We like. We’re more excited to get up and get about it, whatever it might be. And that’s. That is the root of courage. It’s a listening heart. There’s a word in. Yeah, there’s a word in Greek, cardio, gynostus. It means heart knower. How in the name of righteousness do you do that if you never get off social media, Shut your gapper and listen. Yeah, that’s why I think we love to get together. We actually have accidentally stumbled into an idea called supernatural friendship. First conversation we ever had. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, yeah. Hey, I’ll never forget it. First time I’d ever met you and I wanted to reach out and ask you some deep seated questions, and I did. We had a wonderful time. Time together. And then afterwards I said, can I call you again and ask you some more stuff? And you said, how about we just be friends for the rest of our lives? I’ll never forget that. And then we did. And we are. 

Michael Meggison:
And then we did. Jeff. I was on. I was speaking with a dear friend of mine on friendship at Lutheran Church of Hope in West Des Moines many years ago. There are probably 100 guys down there. And Pastor Hurst and I were up there. I said, gentlemen, take out your phones. I said, here’s my phone number. 515-988-4987, like I’m doing right now. And that’s actually my phone number. And I said, now if you will do what I ask you to do, then you will involve yourself in a supernatural miracle right here and right now. Because Pastor Mike said a few weeks ago that the average man over 40 has less than 0.8 friend. And that guy lives out of state. And he describes me as everybody’s best friend. So if you reach out, I promise you I’ll find time to hook up, catch up. 

Michael Meggison:
I love people. I’ll hear your heart. We’ll grab coffee, whatever. I’ll make, I’ll make time for it. Guess how many of the hundred reached out. Come on, go ahead and guess. No, one once and one ran into me at a wedding and said, I think about that every week. Why is that? 

Jeff Johnson:
They don’t do it. 

Michael Meggison:
Volkey told me that. Our friend Pastor Eric told me. He goes, do you know why they didn’t. I go, no. I think it’d be good to know. They have no idea what you mean when you say friend. It’s true. I think we stay very surface level. Which on the topic of courage or courageousness is not. I don’t want you to know that I struggle with colon. Right. We’re not going to talk about that. We’re going to talk about March Madness, something else. Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
So that’s wonderful. When you say courage, that’s you being able to fully express yourself because then you’re Not. You’re not masking anything. You’re not hiding anything. You’re just. This is authentically me. This is exactly how I feel. 

Michael Meggison:
When. When my father died, that was rough, man. Because he wasn’t just my father, he was my best friend. He wasn’t just my best friend. He was my God. And I don’t exaggerate. Like, he made an impact on me. And it was rough and. And it’s very hard. And I hope in no way this is received as unflattering people. Who knew my dad. My dad was larger than life. He was an amazing person. He didn’t have a lot of spiritual guidance in his life because as a bit of a steamroller in his daily manner of living, he wasn’t somebody that, you know, was giving spiritual guidance to. He was giving it. And unfortunately, as I think Einstein said, premature responsibility breeds superficiality. He didn’t have the chops to guide spiritually. 

Michael Meggison:
Yeah, but he would be looked to in some of those rooms sometimes, or at least in leadership. And why am I talking about my dad? Well, it would be courageous of me to tell you what my sister told me a couple weeks ago. We were talking about encouragement. She said, you know what encouragement is not? And I said, yes, but tell me anyway, because I bet you know better. She said, what encouragement is not is telling someone what you think that they should do and finding more persuasive ways to tell them how to go about doing it. That’s actually an agenda driven manipulation. And you grew up with that because that’s how her dad rolled. It’s like, ouch. And she said, you actually needed him to believe in you, and he didn’t. And I said, double ouch. 

Michael Meggison:
And I felt it like when she said that, she goes, you needed your father to believe in you, and he did not. And of course that’s not true, but it was absolutely true. Okay? And what I mean by that is my father believed in the me that he designed in his mind and the person that he wanted me to become. Yeah, right. But she said, you know what encouragement is? And I said, no, please tell me. And she said, what encouragement is sitting across the table from. From somebody for a long time, listening to them and helping them to hear themselves, helping them to hear their own story and helping them to discover. Bill Johnson said this morning, when I was. When I was listening, he said, we are never more fully alive than we are walking in our. 

Michael Meggison:
Than when we are walking in our divine assignments, producing things for his glory. 

Jeff Johnson:
I agree with that. That’s a great quote. 

Michael Meggison:
Nothing. Nothing more profound than helping somebody to discover who they really are and giving them the confidence to approve of that person that they often despise or aren’t so sure about. Right. You said where encouragement is and does is it sits across the table from somebody long enough to help them discover who it is that God’s designed them to be, recognize it, approve of it, seal it with a kiss from God’s heart, and help them to go about doing, seeing, and walking in that. And you see that the word encourage actually has the word courage in it. The two are profoundly related. One is you actually put the courage inside of somebody by doing what we just talked about. Maya Angelou. She walks up to the little guy, and he’s mad and about to get into a fight in the set of Poetic justice. 

Michael Meggison:
And she puts her hand on his shoulder, and she says, young man, don’t you know how Important you are? 200 years have gone by waiting for you to become who it is that you are. Young man, please come. Let’s go aside and let me talk to you. And she spoke kindly to him, and it was Tupac Shakur. And the next day, when he’s freaking out all over his friends, but she’s walking by the set, he looks at her, and he says, good morning, Ms. Angela. You can feel the esteem for someone who has laid down their life for their friend. Like, that’s what we want to do. We want. And we want to be. The love listens long. 

Jeff Johnson:
Does courage cost you something? Does being courageous, acting courageously, stepping out in courage come with Price Butler, our. 

Michael Meggison:
Friend, the artist, who I’m sure will be on here at some point if he hasn’t been called me last year with a dream. And he said, I had a dream about you. I said, I like it. Tell me more. He says, like the Golden Globes. And you were sitting there, and you’re sort of holding court. All these really important people were surrounding. I said, I like this dream. And he said. And he said, and I was there, and I was talking about you. My best friend. With my best friend. I said, this is a weird dream. He goes, I know. He said, guess who my best friend was. I said, I don’t know. He said, it was Lionel Messi. He’s like, unbelievable. He goes, and I was telling Lionel. I go, I’ve got to introduce you to my best friend. 

Michael Meggison:
Lionel’s like, but I’m your best friend. He goes, I know, but I got introduced to my best friend, Megs. So he walked me over he walked Lionel over to meet me, and it was clear that Lionel and I were going to best friends from now on. We hugged his old best friends, and Bill woke up, and he goes, what. What does all that mean? I go, well, I think it means that Lionel, which means lion like, which is a representation of courage, is messy. That’s what I think. 

Jeff Johnson:
Say that again. 

Michael Meggison:
Lionel Messi is a representative of the lion like and the lion like, or the righteous are as bold as a lion. The courageous. That’s messy. I’ll tell you. I was down in town in Southern Iowa, to answer your question, a few years ago, and I was with a group of guys, and we’re going out to pray for somebody who’s dying of cancer. And that’s a bit of a courageous thing. Not everybody wants to go into that room, right, guys? Dying of cancer. We’re praying for miracles, right? That’s weird and awesome, but weird, right? Not everybody. Not everybody necessarily is comfortable doing. I’m comfortable doing that. I like those rooms. But the closer we got to where were going, you know, the Holy Spirit sometimes grabs you by the shoulder and gently starts pushing you over into a different room. 

Michael Meggison:
And everybody else is going someplace. We. We arrive on the doorstep, and everybody goes out on the back porch with this gentleman to pray for him. There are five. I don’t know, five, six, seven of us. And I veered off into the kitchen. I’m like, what is going on here? Oh, oh, I’m here for her. I just had this knowing like you do, and try to listen to the Holy Spirit. And I looked at her and I asked her this question, which was bold as a lion and courageous. Right? Just don’t say things like this. I said, can I ask you a question? She’s making coffee for everybody, busying herself. And I’ve been in a lot of rooms and a lot of dying people. I go to hospice, and my mom had cancer a bunch. My dad did when I was a kid. 

Michael Meggison:
I’ve been around sick people a bunch and that sort of. That sort of settings. I have a little sensitivity setting to it. I said, can I ask you a question? She goes, yeah. I said, at the sound of my voice, do you believe that God can heal your husband, raise him up, heal him up, make him safe? She goes, yes. I said, fantastic. I have a harder question. Do you believe that God’s big enough and kind enough to heal your broken heart if he doesn’t decide to? And she burst into tears and near collapsed. It costs you something when you’re Wrong. Right. And it costs you something powerfully if you’re right. It is price. It’s costly. It’s like the costly nard that Mary Bethany poured out. Mary poured out on Jesus feet. Right. It is costly, Right. 

Michael Meggison:
To risk hearing his heart in that situation when maybe not everybody’s going to have that conversation. 

Jeff Johnson:
So, yes, that fits. Courage is going all in. Courage is fully expressing everything that’s in your heart. That’s a perfect example of that maze of how that comes with a price. What if he’s not healed? What if he is? 

Michael Meggison:
The fear of man is absolutely staggering to us. Right. Like, I don’t. I just want to be light. Right. I just want everybody to think I’m the best, please, if at all possible. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And, you know, God’s invitation isn’t always for that to be the case. I’ll give you an example. A young friend of mine, amazing young leader who’s going through some challenges, very frustrated with me. And I get that sometimes because I tried to speak the truth and have boundaries with people that they sometimes don’t appreciate. And he really wanted to get with me and have a conversation. He’s like, sure. So we got together like this for coffee, right? We sat down and I got my little coffee. Oh, it’s good to see you. Like, I hadn’t been together for a while. Little anxiety in that relationship. And he said with this tone, and he didn’t need to open his mouth. I could see it in his face. He was not in a good, healthy place. His expression had contempt in it, as sometimes happens. 

Michael Meggison:
And he said, well, I’ll just tell you before we get started. You’re going to tell me everything with specificity to the questions that I put before you, and you’re not going to add any fluff. And I said to him, well, I don’t know if you know this, but I don’t work for you and I. I don’t owe you anything. And you are my friend and I will gladly try to answer your questions when you back up and change your tone, because I don’t need to be spoken like that. I’m old enough to be a grandfather. Wow. Right. And he didn’t like that. And he stood up and he grabbed his little water bottle and he said, we’re done here. And he left. And he does not know that this today, that was actually for him. Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, keep going. 

Michael Meggison:
I’m not being unkind by not submitting to a religious spirit. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
Or someone else’s agenda. Yeah. It’s for him to do what? To model a good heartfelt boundary. I love you. I’m your friend. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yep. 

Michael Meggison:
And this is actually not how we treat our friends. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Michael Meggison:
So I forgive you. I like, I’m not mad. I can sit across the table from right this second with pure eyes and a clear heart. But it’s not good to walk around with contempt in your heart, is it? Like, we know because we’ve done it. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s right. 

Michael Meggison:
It’s very good not to have contempt in our heart. And so how do we get rid of it? That’s bravery. Oh, my goodness. Some of the bravest spaces I ever find myself are when I am filled with rage, contempt, hostility, unforgiveness, self pity. You know this story, but it’s a. It’s a great tell it indicator of my friendship with God and my trust for my wife. My wife and I are in Las Vegas. This is the week after Family Bible Camp, which I always love to add as part of the story. It’s such a great contextualizer. Went to Bible camp, but now we’re in Vegas, right? And she’s laughing. We’re sitting in this Mexican restaurant at the Aria, which has, as part of the story, it has this elaborate like 20 foot long wall, 10ft tall, with just faces of skulls. 

Michael Meggison:
It’s a depiction of the day of the dead. And ordinarily, my little spirit checks out. When I see something like that. I gotta get out of here, man. This is not for me. It doesn’t have the right vibe. And the Holy Spirit in that moment said, no, you’ll need that wall in a minute. I was like, oh, this doesn’t sound good. And Christine says, almost on cue, my wife, hey, is there anything you want to leave in Vegas? And I’m like, yes. She goes, I was kidding. I go, no, seriously. And I had this massive real estate transaction we’d been working on. Good friend of mine, and he promised me, hey, go Bible camp. We’ll get it done when you get back, no problem. And of course, while I was at Bible camp, they sold it to somebody else. 

Michael Meggison:
And I could not, you know, it’s a massive fee. It’s this big deal. I couldn’t get over it. Like, I read scripture at this guy’s wedding. Are you kidding me? This is unbelievable, right? And Christine looked at me and she goes, and I’ll never forget this, she said, you sometimes don’t take very well what I’m about to tell you. Truer words were never spoken. And I said, well, I will tonight. As I Reflected on that moment. Months later in journaling as I’ve been on this journey, the Holy Spirit showed me this tiny golden key that I picked up when I said that in the my imagination. He said, that key is humility. I received what I said. I will deny it because God’s given you eyes to see my blind spots. 

Michael Meggison:
And she goes, you used to blame God when things didn’t go the way you wanted them too, and now you just blame your clients and other people. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Michael Meggison:
Ouch. Yeah, ouch. I said, I have no idea what that even means yet. But mark my words, I’m going to go on a journey. And I did. And the journey that I went on, and I think it’s some of the most valuable advice that we can give young people and old people and people. Self pity is the biggest time vampire and the biggest waste of energy and space and money that ever was. Feeling sorry for yourself instead of owning your part, forgiving quickly, having a sense of humor about life and understanding. God calls everything to work together for good to those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. That journey led me to giving up complaining, political fasting. Right. All the way up to, I’m sure elements of this social media fast all related to the same idea. 

Michael Meggison:
Can you receive a hard thing from anyone? They tell you something hard. It’s like self deception’s like my favorite thing. Are you kidding me? Let me walk in it. No, that’s not a good gift. But it’s very, to my conviction, courageous. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
To face the thing that you hide from yourself all day long. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And you and I meet with enough folks who struggle in this particular arena of aggrandizing self. You know, I’m absolutely not going to tell you the truth because I don’t know it. And when you bring it to their attention, oh, the shame is debilitating. Instead of, hey, it doesn’t need to tell you who you are. This is just an invitation to move in a different direction. Right. And we don’t know that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Always expressing yourself fully is a form of courage. Putting yourself in the situation to really listen to somebody and be that listener for somebody is a courageous thing. And being able to hear the truth in the midst of that takes great courage. I mean, I like the way that you’re putting all this together. So let me ask you a couple questions. The second one is going to be what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But the first question is going to be, what’s the most courageous thing you did yesterday. 

Michael Meggison:
A young friend of mine called and he was facing something that he thought was his imagination, but he wasn’t sure, and he was completely overwhelmed by it. And I said, oh, I just read about this. Okay. I said, trying to keep his story private enough while I tell him he was wondering if there was something wrong with him physically because he encountered somebody who had a symptom similar to something that he had one time kind of feeling anyway. And I said, oh, that’s an imagination. Tear that thing down. He goes, what? I said, like, the devil’s real, right? Like he hates you. And if God didn’t say it and you didn’t say it, that leaves one choice. Usually, like somebody else might have said it, but under the influence of what? Like, if it wasn’t you or God, it wasn’t. Yes. Wow. 

Michael Meggison:
And the bravest then yesterday I did was I owned that for myself in a different context. I was like, oh, my gosh. That was for me, like in the Screwtape letters, when, you know, the uncle’s reaching out to Wormwood, he goes, hey, if they start to think that maybe demons are real, make sure that they quickly imagine, you know, red tights and a white, long pointy tail so that they will absolutely discount that. And. And then they’ll receive what you’re saying, right? I’ve been walking with the Lord for an awful lot of years, and there have been. And again, it was a revelation. It’s like, oh, I needed that badly from me. Thanks, Lord. Well, it wasn’t from me in that moment. It was God’s heart revealing something to me through me. Which is a really neat metric when you think about it. 

Michael Meggison:
But receiving it and spending the next few hours on and off with him going over it to make sure that I got it. Because sometimes you can hug and roll, right? God gives you something, you go, right, and move back to. It’s like, no, I was struck. I was struggling with that. I didn’t realize it. The devil poking me with a very sharp stick. Thank you, Lord. So I think that was probably it. 

Jeff Johnson:
So. See, that’s fantastic, because that’s my belief. You could ask anybody during the course of any day, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve done today? 

Michael Meggison:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you’ll have something. So. 

Michael Meggison:
Yeah, hopefully. 

Jeff Johnson:
But now let’s ask the big question, the point of the whole podcast. Michael Megason, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Michael Meggison:
Golly. Huh. Huh. So last year, my. How was this? Year before last, my eldest senior in high school coming into the slide, man. And he’s asking me questions for this business class of his and he’d forgotten to do it all day. So it’s 10 o’clock and I’m too tired to do anything at 10. I get up between four and five every day. He goes, hey, I got an interview for this class. Get down here. I’m like, oh, man. All right. So I come downstairs, I sit down in the kitchen table. I might have my teeth in at this point. It’s tough to say. And he looks at me and he goes, when was it that you knew that commercial real estate was your dream job? And I went, I don’t actually. I mean, commercial real estate is not my dream job. 

Michael Meggison:
And he kind of knew that. But I’ve never said it out loud before. And I went on a journey, and I’m 55, just turned and just beginning at 55 to say, I think the bravest thing that I’ve done that at least is standing out to me when you ask the question, is to say that out loud. I loved my dad so much that for 33 years I’ve been in an industry that was his best and brightest idea. For me, that isn’t actually who I am and what I’m designed to do. And I’ve been pretty good at it. I’ve had some success in it, and I’ve made a lot of friends. And it’s been this beautiful tug of war in my heart where God causes every single thing to work together for good. 

Michael Meggison:
And it’s been my living, it’s been my life, it’s been my livelihood. These have been my people, this has been my community, these have been my friends. But there’s also been this deeper creative longing. But I’ve had to learn how to face since that conversation. And I’ve been facing it. And it’s very brave to go against the most important voice in your life by allowing the most important voice in your life actually to have some breathing room. And isn’t courage at the end of the day really summarized in Proverbs 3, when he says, trust in the Lord with all of your heart and don’t lean on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways and he’ll direct your path. We go, no, I’m not gonna do it. I’m gonna. 

Michael Meggison:
I’m gonna trust my dad, who looked at me and I graduated From USC in 1989, bright eyed, bushy tailed. My dad had lung cancer, my mom had breast cancer, we would discover six weeks later. And he said of Course, you can do that creative thing as soon as you can afford to. And I’ve been bowing to that little G God all my life. I didn’t know it. Like when it says, what does it profit a man if he loses his own soul, gains the whole world, you go, I didn’t know that. Right. But vulnerability is what leads to connection. So I’ll guarantee you somebody out there, because I know how this works, will hear this and god was in this place and I didn’t know it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
Because there’s something that God is inviting us to that is, well, what did Bill say? We’re never more fully alive. Alive. And when we are walking in our divine assignment, producing things for his glory. Now, don’t hear what I’m not saying. I’ve done that in the last 33 years. A bunch. I just done it in many ways at tables like this with friends like you. And so, yeah, it isn’t to the exclusion, like, oh, no, my dad. That isn’t it. But the being painfully honest out loud about something, that’s embarrassing. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
Is courageous as hell. To gosh, what will people think when they hear that? I said, I remember seeing standing in front of a room, and this is the first time I’d ever given a talk on shame. And this is the conversation I had. This is another one of the bravest things that I’ve done, because bravery oftentimes in my world has to do with the fear of man. And there was a millionaire sitting in the front row. And this was my opening gambit. I said, would it surprise you to know that I have $37 left in my name and Lee Iacocca himself is calling for the Jeep payment. That was my opening. And it’s 2008, 2009 era, when commercial real estate fell off a cliff in the banking crisis. You know, commercial real estate always gets first in these things. 

Michael Meggison:
And I knew he was in the front row, but the next thing that I said was, would it surprise you to know that I am not ashamed because I am doing the very best that I can to hear what God’s actually up to in the middle of all of this? Well, part of what God was doing was getting me to recognize that I’m not my provider. And less than 30 days later, we had literally a thousand fold exactly to that quote in the bank account. I don’t know how that works. I do know that it works. But it does work. But it does work. As he’s trying to cultivate trust, we talked about codependency yeah. Right? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
Codependency means two things. I work harder on your life than you do. And more often, I’m only okay if I think that you think that I’m okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Michael Meggison:
And the Holy Spirit asked me one time, he said, who’s your most co. Dependent relationship with? I go, that’s easy, Christine. He goes, no, try again. I go. And it literally stumped me. And then it occurred to me, it’s Jesus. Because I’m only okay in my mind if I think that Jesus thinks that I’m okay, which is not the same thing as having a relationship with a person. Right. It’s like, I’m only okay with Jeff thinks I’m okay. It’s like, why don’t you sit across the table and ask Jeff if he thinks you’re okay? Right. Right. And we get out of the habit of doing that at great peril. God’s invitation is always to be more fully alive when we are walking in our divine assignment, producing things for his glory. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And that takes a lot of different forms. It’s not just, you know, it’s not just a vocation. Right. Like, vocation is a big deal. It’s related to the word calling. But it’s how we live and move and have our being. I think I’ve actually gotten that quite right in places at times. But the bravery to own who you’ve not been and to try your level best to get the crosshairs on regret. You know my buddy Jordy? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
Jordan Flat, one of my best friends on the planet and died a few years ago. God had to be gone. Like no other explanation for it. The last time I had breakfast with Jordy that I didn’t know would be the last time, on his way to his car, I go, jordy, wait, wait. I ran back to my car and I handed him a card. And in the card, I got to tell him how much he meant to me. Now, listen, we’re gonna die. We’ve already established that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Michael Meggison:
As Maya Angelou just. Just sagely said, we can do lesser things. We’re gonna die. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
It’s a big bar. We can do. We can do lesser things. And telling somebody how much they mean to us. Like, I look back, how many years have we been doing this? What a rem. Remarkable kindness of God. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
To give to me a friend like you. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Michael Meggison:
And the stories, my goodness. The way that you speak to your wife and the way that you prepare things for your children, You’ve had impact in my life in ways you would have no way of knowing. But, like, I’ll, I’ll pick that up. Like, I’ve taken it and running with it and so grateful for it. And when we do that, I don’t think there’s a braver way to walk on the planet. And I think people are genuinely missing out one of the greatest callings that there is, which is to deepen their friendship with God through deepening their friendship with people of God, each other. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s right. Oh, Mags. 

Michael Meggison:
So thank you for being my friend. 

Outro:

Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web@crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at infocrossroadsapologetics.com or infocrossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.