Surfer, SEAL, Soldier of Faith: Drew Forsberg on Courage and Conviction

Drew Forsberg is a retired Navy SEAL who served 22 years, including
multiple deployments, and was stationed in San Diego and Hawaii. Now
a resident of Oahu’s North Shore, Drew leads a fulfilling life as a
husband, father to four homeschooled children, and an advocate for
regenerative agriculture and entrepreneurship. In this episode of the
Courageous Crossroads podcast, Drew shares his deeply personal
journey of faith, recounting his courageous stand against the military’s
vaccine mandate, which nearly cost him his career just months before
retirement. He reflects on his calling to defend the Constitution, his path
to faith, and how courage, both in combat and in life, has shaped his
outlook. Drew is now actively helping fellow veterans transition to
civilian life and continues to promote digital discipleship through his
work with Pray.com. His story is one of unwavering conviction,
integrity, and living out his faith with boldness

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

• Follow us on Instagram @crossroadsapologetics
• Email us at info@crossroadsapologetics.org
• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now, your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. Let me ask you a quick question. If you were going to interview a type of a person on the topic of courage, just top of the mind, what kind of person would you want to interview? Like elite athlete, spiritual sage? Maybe somebody that survived a plane crash or climbed a mountain or something like that? Well, here’s who’d be at the top of your list. Here’s who, top of my list? A Navy seal. And we’ve got one today for you. A new friend of mine, Drew Forsberg, shares with us his insights on the topic of courage. And wow, what a fantastic interview. And you are really going to be blessed with what Drew has to say. He’s got a heart of a lion and a humble person as well. 

Jeff Johnson:
And a lot of insight coming from this gentleman. So without further ado, let’s get to Drew. Yeah, it’s wonderful to meet you, Drew. Now tell me, where are you calling from? Where am I talking to you? 

Drew Forsberg:
I am calling you from the island of Oahu in the state of Hawaii. I’m up on the North Shore in a little town called Wailua. 

Jeff Johnson:
What in the world are you doing out there? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I did 19 years of my career in San Diego in the SEAL teams. And then at the 19 year mark, God decided to move our family to Hawaii. And I thought it was just going to be a short three year stint down here and then obviously go back to San Diego. It’s very easy for us in the teams, or maybe we’d get, get a little bit limber and go check out Virginia, because that’s kind of like the three main stations where we go. San Diego, Virginia beach, or Hawaii. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so I thought this would be a cool little adventure for our kids at the time of life that they were at. And about six months later, after we got here, is when the vaccine mandate came out. So that was my sign to exit. I’m sure we’ll probably talk about this more, but this is where I got to sue the Navy, get in on that lawsuit. We won. We didn’t win any money, but we just won the ability to stay in. And I was able to use two More years of some active duty time and plan my exit. And during that time, God was like, yeah, I want you to stay stationed and stay in San Diego. Sorry, stay in Hawaii. 

Drew Forsberg:
So me and my kids and my lovely wife, four homeschool kids, I say were living the homeschool Christian extremist dream up here on Oahu and very putting down some roots here. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s not, this is not a Christian thing for me to say at all, Drew, but I’m like jealous, like on a whole bunch of different fronts now. I don’t even like to fish that much and I’m talking to a Navy SEAL and you get to live in Hawaii and Iowa is really nice, but Hawaii is kind of nice too, so. Oh my goodness. 

Drew Forsberg:
Wow. 

Jeff Johnson:
So we need to back up. I. Are you still on active duty? 

Drew Forsberg:
No, I retired in March. Yep. I was just at the 22 years and 18 days or something. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, I want to talk to you about that. But what are you doing with yourself now then? 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m doing quite a few things. A lot of different irons in the fire. You know, I really wanted to learn about entrepreneurship and one of the things that I kind of needed a backup plan in case the Navy had their way and kicked me out at the 19 and a half year mark. What would be my backup plan? And I started doing this hobby along my, in my yard of trying to grow more edible things and using regenerative agriculture type methods for it. And my wife was like, please do not farm our entire yard. And I’m like, that’s understood. Okay. And so I kind of would bite off a couple feet of the perimeter of the property and we’ve captured some of the feral chickens. And so now I’ve got some chickens integrated with my little quasi farm. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I thought, you know what, maybe I could do this as like a cash based business if the entire economy falls out and I get kicked out and who knows, with social credit scores, maybe I can do this as a business. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right? 

Drew Forsberg:
And God being who he is, another Big Wave server buddy of mine, he actually does that for a business already. And as we’ve met through the years and gotten to know each other better, he’s really good at growing trees and growing things and all the things plant related. I’m more of a hobbyist. But when we talk about business, it seems like that’s one place where he could use a little more help is down on the operations side. So right now I’m helping him with that for a whopping $1 a month because I want to make sure that he’s profitable before he can pay me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Drew Forsberg:
And also working for beyond the Brotherhood, which is a nonprofit entity that helps Navy SEALs transition from civilian, from military service to civilian service. So we want to make sure that all of our guys get vetted. So I’m in charge of vetting everybody. I got to make five phone calls, three subordinates, one peer, one superior, and make sure that they’re the good dudes that we have in the teams before we put our logo behind them. And what we really want to do is place them well inside of America so that, you know, if we have a really good, solid network of well placed seals, then we can, you know, make phone calls and make sure to basically make America great again. So that’s kind of another iron in the fire that I have. And I’m also working for Pray.com. 

Drew Forsberg:
Pray.com is an app for your phone, and they really specialize in digital discipleship or your daily devotions. That’s how I use the app. And I’m a big proponent of digital discipleship, and we can get into that later. But what I do for them is I’ll go and help out with some of their events. That’s where I met brandon. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yep. 

Drew Forsberg:
So pray.com does is they’ll bring on some of their ministry leaders. They bring them out to San Diego. They do Navy SEAL things, shoot guns, jump out airplanes, blow stuff up, some underwater stuff. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so I’ll go there and I’ll not only participate in that, but I also kind of help run the whole two day excursion to make sure everyone’s like, got the right time, right place, right uniform, kind of thing going on. 

Jeff Johnson:
Drew, you’re a busy man. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, I am. I am. 

Jeff Johnson:
You’ve got a lot of stuff going on. I’m already thinking that your tempo is a lot faster than mine. And I feel like I’m running like a chicken with my head cut off, you know, hither and yawn, doing all kinds of things. Wow, this is impressive. Okay, so for our listeners benefit, Brandon McNace has been, you guys will remember, Brandon McNace has been interviewed on the courageous Crossroads a couple of times. And he’s my dear friend that is free and slaves over in Pakistan and doing that in a very bold way. And the Lord has really grabbed a hold of that ministry and just blown it up. And it’s absolutely fantastic. So I think we’re over 6,000 slaves freed now and through another Mutual contact. 

Jeff Johnson:
He ended up coming out to San Diego and visiting with you and some other Navy SEALs, as I understand. And he said to me, jeff, you’ve got to try. You’ve got to talk to Drew. And so this is why you and I are talking today, Drew. And I’m so grateful that you’ve taken time to share with me and our listeners on the podcast today. Can you, can you take us back to getting into the Navy seals? What drew you to that field? 

Drew Forsberg:
Sure, sure. I, I grew up in a very small town in New York. Now it’s on Long Island, New York. And so most people, when they think of Long Island, New York, they’re thinking about New York City. And that’s true on the west end of the island, but it’s a long island. And so if you continue to head out almost like three hours east, you’ll come to a little town with no stoplights. The train doesn’t go any further. There’s no highways. It’s very quiet little fishing town, beach town where the rich people go and spend their summers. And then, you know, the locals have to make as much money as they can off the rich people in the summer and then squirrel it away in order to make it through winter. And if they’re not involved with the tourist business, they’re involved with fishing. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so my family kind of did both. We took tourists out fishing in the summertime. And then my dad also had a commercial boat, so he’s going out in the cold, cold winters out there for weeks at a time to catch commercial fish. And so that’s kind of how I grew up, was around boats. And I spent a lot of time on boats before I was, you know, 10 years old. Days and days out there not being able to see land. So I kind of always had an affinity for the ocean. And then in my teenage years, I became a surfer and was a die hard surfer. And that was kind of like my new purpose in life. When I finished high school, I wanted to go surf some more. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I went out to California, did a year in Santa Barbara, found out the waves were better in Santa Cruz, so I went there the next year. But I’d always come back for to Montauk, New York for the summertime because that was easy make money to get ready for college for the next year. And my brother and I decided to take a little sabbatical that fall of 2001. And that’s when 9, 11 happened. We were out in New York going to a great surf spot and that we saw the towers collapse on this little ferry ride where we’re going out to a secret spot. And then we saw the planes making big U turns overhead. And I knew that day like my world was going to change. I was 20 years old, I was a very able bodied American male. 

Drew Forsberg:
I was not an athlete but I was able bodied. I didn’t do sports growing up, you know, I was just a die hard surfer. And I knew I wanted to sign up and serve my country somehow. So went to the recruiter about a week later and told him I wanted to get as close to the fight as I possibly could. I told him I watched this Charlie Sheen movie back when I was about 9 years old called the Navy Seals and I was wondering if I could get into that. And he said yes, absolutely, go ahead and start getting ready and sign here and we’ll hook you up. And my recruiter did not lie to me. He gave me the straight skinny. He was like, take the next six months and keep training, get ready. And God did a whole bunch of other things. 

Drew Forsberg:
I was not a believer at the time, but I did know that there was a God up above and I knew he wanted me to do this. And so he kept giving me these very clear signs that indeed this was the path that I was going to go in. So about six months later, after 9 11, I went into boot camp, went to SEAL training. After that went to Seal Team 5 and yeah, been with the teams ever since. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you go straight into the Navy seals? I thought you served in a different branch of the military and then that was an extra credit kind of a thing or something that you advanced to later on. But you went straight in, correct? 

Drew Forsberg:
That’s, that’s kind of one thing that sets us apart from the other special operations forces. We want guys to come in straight off the street without any bad habits from the conventional military. We want them coming in very open minded and just young, dumb and just full of testosterone and ready to get after it. Whereas like the Army Green Berets, they want guys who have been in the army for a little while and seasoned by the army before they come over. And the same thing with the Marine MARSOC Raiders. They want those guys. It’s a, it’s an absolute commitment. You will do some, so many years in the Marine Corps before you can even try out for the Raiders. 

Drew Forsberg:
But we don’t, I almost say like we don’t want guys coming in from the fleet because then they kind of like have This, I don’t know. We almost have to scrub that off of them and get them into, like. No, everything is different here in the SEAL teams. 

Jeff Johnson:
So when you went right into boot camp, you were aiming for becoming a Navy seal? Was there any. How do I even want to ask this? Were you intimidated at all? Were you terrified? Were you thinking, I’ve overreached here. This is a big mistake? 

Drew Forsberg:
Absolutely. I mean, for me, again, not a Christian yet, but I was like, all right, God, if you want me to do this, so far I’m on track, so I’m going to keep running and swimming and doing all the things that I know that I should be doing, and I guess we’ll see what happens when I get there. And then, you know, when I get there and there’s some major studs around me. Even in the beginning when I thought I wanted to do this, my dad was the one that actually planted the seed. He was like, oh, you’re going to the recruiter. You should ask about the SEAL teams. And I was like, dad, I think they, like, grow those guys in a lab somewhere, you know, not really sure I’m that kind of guy. 

Drew Forsberg:
And he’s like, well, you surf, you run on the beach, and you already know how to scuba dive. You know, you might just be the right guy. Why not ask? And so when the recruiter said, yeah, you can do it, I was like, okay, I’ll take the challenge. And then when I’m out there starting up what we call first phase and everything, and there’s tons of studs, and all I know is, like, all I gotta do is keep up and not quit. You know, there’s. There’s a great saying that one of the instructors gave me early, which was, you can’t always be. You can’t always be first, but you better not be last. And so I was like, okay, I can do that. I’m not. I’m not an athlete. I’m not. I’m not a Division 1 kind of, like, kind of guy. 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m just going to keep doing as hard as I can, and as long as I know I’m not last, well, that’s pretty good. And. And, you know, it was kind of nice for me. Like, okay, I’m at the bat, the middle of the pack. I knew I wasn’t going to be a stud. And it’s nice to know that I’m not on the trail either. So that was. I guess that confidence just continued to build as God kept me around in the program. 

Jeff Johnson:
Isn’t the Failure rate for Navy SEAL training astronomical or something? 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Okay. What was it, Drew? Like, how many? Like, we started, 80 fail. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. And most of those guys are leaving on their own accord. 

Jeff Johnson:
They’re had enough of those. I don’t want to be cold anymore. I want to get a sandwich. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yes, exactly. So I remember in Hell Week, we first started on the first night, and, man, the bell’s ringing a lot. The instructors must be messing with us. And I remember, like, being laying in the surf zone. We’re all locked arms and it’s cold, and we’re just laying there, and it’s cold, and we’re hearing the bell ring, and I’m like, I don’t. I think the instructors are messing with our heads to make us think that more guys are quitting, because none of the guys that I’m attached to are quitting. And finally, I kind of, like, looked up and I did see a line of guys at the belt, and it was just kind of like, to me, I shrugged, like, oh, well, I guess I’m tougher than that guy. So that was just kind of a nice confidence builder of. 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m just going to keep going. And if they need to kick me out because I’m not performing, completely understandable, but I’m not going to quit. And it was kind of. I guess one of the benefits of not being a stud and not always winning was I was used to just not winning. And so when things hurt and I’m still just giving it my best and I’m still able to cross the finish line. All right, well, that’s. That’s normal for me. And I think it’s really hard for those Division one, you know, homecoming queen, homecoming king, quarterback, who are always first to. All of a sudden, like, everything hurts and they’re not first. And this is where I think they get into their own headspace, and that’s where they. They ring out. 

Jeff Johnson:
What an interesting treatise on leadership and courage right there. Wow, Drew. Well, I’ve got a lot to talk to you about. So you’re professing your faith right when we start off this interview. So obviously you’re a Christian, but you’re saying you’re not a Christian at this point. So when you go through Hell Week and all that sort of thing, you have not accepted Christ as your savior now, or you’re not immersed in your faith right now. Is that correct? 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, that’s accurate. So. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, then it begs the question, Drew, who were you praying to? Because I guarantee you were praying when you were locked arms in the surf. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, I, I, I grew up in a quasi Catholic background. So our very small town, it was like there was one Protestant church and there was a Catholic church and most of us would go to the Catholic Church. And I would usually go maybe Christmas, New Year’s, that’s about all our family would commit to. My dad was not Catholic, so he never went. He was a fisherman, so he had other things to do on Sunday. And he kind of like outsourced that to my mom and she wasn’t really into it, so she’d bring us every once in a while. And part of even the public school curriculum was they would send you to religion class afterwards on Wednesdays when you were a kid before, like the age of 12. And so I would go to that. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I remember in Catholic school or Catholic religion school, after school, they taught you about your first Holy Communion. And in order for you to do your first Holy Communion, you have to learn and do your first Holy Confession. And in order before you do your first Holy Confession, you need to memorize the Our Father and the Hail Mary. And so I go in for my first Holy Confession and I cried my eyes out. I knew I was a dirty rotten sinner, so I knew the first part of the gospel message. And I’m like, I beat up my brother. I tell lies, you know, say cuss words when no one’s listening. And, and the priest, at least this was my experience. That priest in Montauk way back then said, well, those aren’t really that big of a sin. It’s not that big a deal. 

Drew Forsberg:
Your parents sin more than you and go up to the few and say six Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers and everything’s forgiven. And I was like, okay. And I’m nine and I went up to the pew and I said, My six Hail Marys and 10 are fathers. And I’m thinking, there is no way this makes me right with God. So whatever this is, I’m not really into it either. And then, you know, I’m in public school, so I’m fully indoctrinated every day with billions and billions of years ago in a land far away, something smaller than the period of the page exploded and created everything. So I’m forced also with this alternate worldview of evolution. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I know the Catholics don’t really got it if they’re telling me that’s what makes me right with God. And I’m being force fed this evolution thing. So I’M like, all right, well, I know there’s got to be a God up there, but I really don’t know much about him. So maybe. Maybe the truth is in a mix of everything. I mean, there’s all these different cultures that are trying to find God between the Muslims and the Buddhists. And so maybe I’ll just, like, kind of dabble and see what. See what’s out there. Because I know there is a great God who had to create. Create everything. He has to know everything, and he has to, you know, be all powerful. So I knew that about God. I knew that was the truth. But by deduction, I knew that. 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, Jesus couldn’t be that guy, because if he taught Genesis and he didn’t teach evolution, then that means he didn’t know about evolution, which means he’s not omniscient. It means he doesn’t know everything. And if he did know about evolution and he taught creation anyway, then he’s a liar. So I can’t. I can’t follow this Jesus guy. So obviously, the Christians, wrong. Buddhists, maybe they’ve got a little bit more right. We’ll kind of, like, explore and see what’s going on. So that was where I kind of, like, I understood that there was a big God, but I figured no one else really knew who he was. 

Jeff Johnson:
And then it wasn’t complete. It wasn’t. It wasn’t complete apathy with you, and you just didn’t care. It was. You were deciding, there’s something wrong here, and I’m not settled on it. And so, yeah, I’m gonna remain neutral. Yeah. Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And after my first appointment to Iraq, I could see, well, okay, there’s. There’s something different about Islam, and it’s not right. It’s not like, oh, all religions are good, and there’s just a couple of, like, weird extremists that, you know, bombed a couple towers. I’m thinking there’s more to this Islam thing, and it’s not. It’s not jiving with me. And so if. If it’s not, all religions are right and some people got it wrong. Maybe now, actually, maybe some of these religions are wrong. And then when I came back, a really good friend of mine, he went to boot camp with me. Met him in boot camp, but he didn’t make it through SEAL training. And so he was out in the Navy, and we’re still really good friends. And he was telling me that he was learning about creation science. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I was like, bro, I aced college anthropology class. So you know, I don’t. I don’t really want to hear about this ridiculous creation stuff. And, hey, you know those people that say they’re open minded but never hear your side of the story? I’m like, yeah, I can’t stand those people. He’s like, well, you’re kind of being one right now. And I was like, that’s fair. That’s a really good point. He’s like, how about this? How about I come over and I watch these creation DVDs with you by a guy named Ken Hoban? So he would come to my apartment, we’d watch about one a week. There was about seven. Seven of these videos. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I have been lied to. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so all those questions that I had in second grade when they’re like, you know, talking about dinosaurs in millions of years, and I’d be like, hey, teacher, how do they know that? Well, Drew, it’s because they’re scientists. Yeah, yeah, okay, but how do they know that? That’s enough questions from you, Drew. Stop asking questions. Just make sure you get, you know, this right for the test. So it was bullying, and I had all these questions and no one would answer it. And this guy, Ken Hovind, was explaining, okay, what is science? The definition of science is something that you can observe, test and repeat, and you cannot observe, test and repeat millions of years. You cannot observe, test and repeat a, you know, lizard giving birth to an egg which hatches a chicken. We will never see that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I was like, oh, my goodness, he’s right. I do remember the definition of science, of that which you can test, observe, and repeat. And he’s right. And he’s like, okay, and now let’s contrast that with what does the Bible say every animal will bring forth after their own kind. Can we observe, test, and repeat that every single time? Cats are going to bring forth cats. Yep. Lions and tigers. But guess what? You put a lion, a tiger, and a house cat and a. And a chicken in a. In a little category and say, kids, which one is not like the others? They all know which one is not like the others. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
So they all bring forth after their own kind. And he did a very great job of explaining what does the Bible say? And what do we add up? What do we see? And it completely adds up with science. All right, what is that? What did evolution teach you? And I got really good grades in science class. And I was like, you’re right. That is not science at all. That is complete fairy tale. So now I Can understand, okay, if Genesis 1 through 11 could be true, then the rest of the Bible might be true. And now this is 2005 ish. So the DA Vinci Code back then was big. Do you remember that book? 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I of course had read it, so. And this confirmed my cognitive bias that I had against Christians anyway, right? And I mentioned to my friend, okay, well maybe the Old Testament’s true and maybe creation’s true, but I don’t know about this Jesus guy, you know, because the Da Vinci Code. And he was like, okay, same problem. Why don’t you pick up a rebuttal? It’s causing a lot of controversy. Go to a Barnes and Noble, pick up something that tries to answer all the things about the Da Vinci Code. And I was like, oh, that’s fair. So I picked up like a 60 page little mini booklet about it. And at the end of reading it, I was like, oh my goodness, I am an idiot. I believe a fiction novel as it was truth. 

Drew Forsberg:
So by now I’m like, okay, I guess I’m a Christian. I’m going to the Christians are right. And yeah, go Christians. But I, I wasn’t quite there yet. I was more like somebody on the stands, you know, cheering on the team. But I wasn’t on the team yet. Same friend finally invited me to a Christmas play and I was like, all right, I’m not really into church, but it’s a Christmas play and my friend has an extra ticket because his girlfriend can’t go. And I’m assuming it’s going to be about Jesus, Mary and Joseph in the manger and what’s the harm? And it wasn’t. It was about a modern woman who is super stressed out over Christmas and her friend comes over and asked her about her salvation. 

Drew Forsberg:
You know, like, that’s a great way to just de stress and just think about how thankful you are to be saved. And so what was that day? Like, why don’t you tell me about it and we can just start there. And this lady who’s, you know, was a church follower and her family was out at church, but she’s super stressed out. She realized she was. Didn’t have a day of salvation. She didn’t have a day where she was born again. And I didn’t know. I thought that term, born again, excuse my language, but I thought it meant you like grew up in church, went and hoard around for a while and then you come back to the faith and you’re born again. And I was I did not know that was a Jesus term that ye must be born again. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then he told a religious leader that ye must be born again. And ye means y’all, means all y’all, everybody be born again. Oh, oh, okay. I definitely have not done that. I definitely don’t have a day of salvation. I have definitely not been born again where I can pinpoint that day. And so at the end of the Christmas play, I understood what that was. Guy gave the altar call and he was like reading my mind. Because every rebuttal that I kind of had was like, oh, well, not tonight. Oh, well, not. I don’t really understand at all. Well, maybe I got some things to clean up first. Well, you know, I’m not ready to change that much. Soon all these people are here around me. 

Drew Forsberg:
The preacher, like every single time was like, and if you’re out there and you’re thinking such and such, I mean, he nailed me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then I was like, all right, Lord, I guess today’s the day. And so December 18, 2005, I went forward, A guy opened up the Romans Road. I already heard it on the creation DVDs. It just kind of like fast forward it. But I did hear it a couple times and I was like, yeah, I got it. I’m a sinner. There’s a price for sin. Jesus paid that price. And all I got to do is call upon the name of the Lord. Yes, let’s do this. Like, skip it through. Let’s go through it. I’ve already heard. I understand the scriptures. Let’s pray this out. And so that’s when I got saved. And about. It took me about two and a half years to really get both feet in because, you know, I just finished my first deployment. 

Drew Forsberg:
You owe at least two at the SEAL team. So I had a lot of training to do. I was out of town a lot. And there’s only so much you can do when you’re trying to disciple yourself with a Bible when you’re on travel. So I’d get to church when I could and then out on my next deployment went to the southern Philippines and somebody took my ipod and loaded it up with a bunch of faith based content. And so on the end of my six month deployment, I felt like I got more discipled through digital discipleship, through an ipod, than I probably would have if I had been, you know, staying back in San Diego and been to church every day. Wow. So that helped me quite a lot. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then finally in 2008, there was kind of A crosswords where I wasn’t drinking really much at all, only socially, and then figured I finally had Proverbs 20, verse one, open up to me. Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is thereby is not wise. And I had been praying for wisdom for a long time, and I was like, what am I even doing? Even with one beer? You know what? I’m done. And so I finally quit that. That, I think was, for me was like a big precipice moment where now I’m on both feet in here, Lord. And a couple weeks later, I met my wife at a Bible conference. And it was perfect timing because she wouldn’t even consider dating me if I was still socially drinking. So God just kept growing me through those years. 

Drew Forsberg:
But that was a good two and a half formative years that I really needed for him to get a hold of me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Did you have other seals that were believers that you were talking to, or was it sparse? 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, yeah, I did. You know, it was just really cool how God did that, because one of the things, I was like, well, Lord, I don’t want to change too much too soon. And that preacher was like, well, if you think you’re out there and you think you got to be a straight edge guy tomorrow, that might not be the way it works for you. And so I got saved and I continued, like, partying with my old friends in the platoons. And I was like, it just doesn’t feel right anymore. It feels icky. I don’t like doing this anymore. And then God put in a. A guy in our platoon who had already done two deployments. He had a wife, he had two kids, and he was a surfer, and he lived around the block from me. And. And he was a Christian. 

Drew Forsberg:
He’d been a Christian for a long time. And so he was another, like, you know, when God sends. Sends him out two by two, it was like he gave me a swim buddy, a Christian swim buddy, to really help disciple me. And we. We’d go surfing, we’d go to church after. After a surf on Sunday. And he was the one that was like, dude, you don’t need to be hanging out with those guys anymore. You know, as a Christian, these are some things that you need to be thinking about. And so that kind of helped that paradigm shift of, you know, I feel like this is what I used to do, and why wouldn’t I do that anymore? But that’s not going to help my. My Christian growth either. So God really sent me a great mentor in that regard. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s interesting, you know, you’re reminding me, John 15:7 says, if you remain in me and my word remains in you, then ask whatever you want, and it’ll be granted. And of course, I love that as a. As a new Christian, I was grabbing hold of the ask whatever you want and it’ll be granted part, because I wouldn’t mind a Lamborghini, you know, I mean, let me. Give me some stuff. But then when you really think about that, you know, if you remain in me, Jesus says, and my words remain in you. So there’s the bond, there’s the relationship, there’s the new man, and the old man is gone. Then you ask whatever you want, and it’ll be granted. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, what it presupposes is what you’re going to ask is things that God wants as well, because you’ve become one with God’s will, and then you’re starting to use it rightly. So that seems to be what you’re characterizing to me. You’re in the middle of your second deployment here, and you’re getting evangelized through your ipod. And I can. And I’m picturing somebody who’s just wanting something that’s just different. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s about right. And, you know, when I was down there in the. In the Philippines, I was a. One of the radio guys. That was kind of like one of my collateral duties. And so I got this notice. Hey, we need Drew to go out on this Filipino Navy ship. He’s going to be the only American he needs to be the. Their advisor, their tactical adviser, as they’re doing these counter operations, counterterrorist operations. And he’s going to relay back to us at headquarters what’s going on. So I got to go out to this Filipino ship for about two weeks, and that’s when I got that ipod loaded up. And it was exactly what I needed at the time, because otherwise, I was just kind of distracted with working out or doing the other things with the other guys. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so there it was, like, two weeks. I got nothing to do except lay on a ship, make a couple of radio calls, and do some advising with the Filipinos. And then I just sit there and listen. Listen to some really great preaching. One was a guy named Chip Ingram, which gives, like, some really good, practical Christian living tips, which is what I wanted. Like, okay, what is this Christian walk supposed to look like? And then the other was a guy named David Jeremiah, who was a very solid Bible teacher. And he did this big series on Revelation. And so I got some very solid Bible study out of it, as well as some practical Christian living tips. And for the rest of the deployment, I was like, I need to hear more. I need to hear more. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I go do some long runs and just listen to preaching. 

Jeff Johnson:
Man, that’s fantastic. Well, we haven’t even talked about courage yet. And the thing is, I mean, you’re exhibiting it, but we haven’t talked about specifically the subject. But we’re going to come down to, in this podcast, the one question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And I’ll ask you that in just a minute. But beforehand, was. Was your experience with the Navy seals what you thought it was going to be? I mean, after you went through training and became a SEAL and then you deployed, is this what you were anticipating, or was it all a surprise to you? Because I just. I picture that as being such a courageous adventure, like, even going out into the field, and I don’t even know what I’m talking about. All I. 

Jeff Johnson:
All I do is watch movies, Drew, so I have no idea what your operations would be like, but I just. That to. To my mind’s eye, that seems like that would be such a intimidating thing. Could be. 

Drew Forsberg:
You know, I guess I was kind of disappointed sometimes. I thought it was going to be like the movies and understanding that not everybody gets to go during these commitments. So, for instance, in 2006, you’ve got a lot of infighting with a surge in Iraq, and we all want to go to the big show. Everybody wants to go to Iraq and go to the. The hottest parts of it. Well, that’s nice, and I’m sure the military would love to do that, but we have other commitments. And so my troop, 1/3 of the team had a commitment to go to the South Pacific. There’s no, like, somebody had to perform better. It’s not like any kind of like a ranking system. 

Drew Forsberg:
It was just, troop one’s going here, Troop two is going there, Troop three is going there, and there’s nothing you could do about it. And so no matter how great you guys did as. As a. As a unit through training, you’re still going to the Philippines. Jocko, I think, was Jocko Willink. A lot of guys know him and his wartime deployment. He’s a great guy, and he’s a great leader. His guys got to go and do the be in the show, and they could make movies of their deployment. But two thirds of the team didn’t get to go there. One third of the team went to a different part of Iraq, and they didn’t see nearly as much as Jocko’s guys. And another part of that team all went to the Philippines. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so it’s just kind of, I guess, a bummer sometimes when I look at it. I wanted every deployment to be like that, and so does every single seal. But in the big picture, you know, we’ve the. Ms. The. The U.S. Military has lots of different strategic interests, and seals do tactical missions with strategic impacts. And we sometimes would rather just go and patrol the streets and go get shot at and return fire like Marines and infantry guys, but that’s not our job. And so that part of it, I guess, sometimes is almost, like, disappointing. How come I didn’t get to go? Why did God kind of put me in different troops where it just didn’t pan out that way? So that’s, I guess, maybe a kind of disappointing answer. 

Jeff Johnson:
Not at all. Not at all. I want to know how a Navy SEAL defines courage. Drew, how do you define courage? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I would say it’s voluntarily facing a high degree of risk for altruistic purposes, meaning, like, you’re doing it for something bigger than yourself. When I did some entrepreneurship boot camp, they talked about they want to make sure that you understood your why and that you were doing it for a good reason. And so there was, like, six good reasons. Number one was like, if you’re doing it for a calling or you’re doing it to serve others or to defend others. Number four, do you need to find justice and to right a wrong that’s out there, or you’re growing and improving or you’re expressing love or compassion? Those are, like, the. The reasons to do something. And I would say courage is doing one of those things where it’s a very high degree of risk associated with doing it. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so, like, Medal of Honor winners, you know, it’s not based on how many enemy they kill on the battlefield. It’s whether if they did what they did to save others. And this is why so many Medal of Honor winners get that honor after they die. They might have died in the battle of doing it, but the courage, the bravery was they did what needed to get done so that they could help others. It wasn’t just because they were. They wanted to get their kill on or something. And so entrepreneurship, I think, takes a lot of courage if it’s for the right reasons. And same thing for guys in combat. 

Drew Forsberg:
And when we would train them, even in, like, urban warfare, we didn’t want them, you know, if there was a man down, we didn’t want them running into a hail of gunfire in order to pick a guy up because we’re like, that’s just reckless. Now, in the real world, if somebody throws a grenade on a rooftop and a guy jumps onto it, yes, that is very courageous. And yes, you should get the medal of Honor. And one of our guys did. But in training, if somebody throws a grenade on the rooftop, we’re not giving out Medal of Honor. Everybody get off the stink. 

Jeff Johnson:
Rooftop. Right? 

Drew Forsberg:
So I think courage is when there’s a very high degree of risk associated with doing something that’s not for yourself, it’s for others. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s a great definition. Is courage binary? I mean, either you have it or you don’t, or are there grades of courage? Have you come into contact with people that are 20% courageous and, man, that guy’s 95% courageous? Or is it just either you got courage or you don’t? 

Drew Forsberg:
I would say you either show courage or you don’t. You know, there’s guys that are, that did something the right thing with a little bit of risk involved. And sometimes when the risk was too great, then maybe they wouldn’t, you know, execute such courage. And so I think it’s always a degree. And that’s why there’s Medal of Honors and there’s silver stars and there’s bronze stars because it’s all about how much courage did you exude in this opportunity that you had to exude courage? You know, not everybody gets a chance to jump on a grenade. And good, you know, nobody wants that, that opportunity. So I think that’s where the degree is. If, like, when this opportunity arose, how did you personally handle it? 

Jeff Johnson:
Then the courage shows itself. Yeah, I like that. So I got a couple of friends, you know, I run this steel company, and I got a couple of ladies that are from the Ukraine. There’s a couple of guys out in the shop too, that are from the Ukraine. But anyway, this lady’s a really strong believers. I just love them. And I talk to them a lot about what’s going on over there. And I talk to him most of all about what’s going on in the United States. And I, and inevitably I’ll go in and I’ll say, man, things just seem like they’re falling apart. And these ladies look at me and they say, Jeff, we’ve got to be more heavenly minded. 

Jeff Johnson:
It looks like they’re kind of falling into place, you know, according to the biblical narrative, the way that things go in that context, you know, I mean, this is what’s going to happen to our society. You know, when you look at it from a Christian worldview, this is the kind of turmoil that we can expect. But do you think that courage is in a deficit or at a premium right now? You know, are we loaded with courage in the United States? Are we lacking courage in the United States? What’s your opinion about that? And I only. I give myself license, Drew, to only ask difficult questions because I only invite smart people on this podcast. 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I like. I like the phrase courage is contagious. You know, I mentioned, like, okay, I did a lot of missions in the SEAL teams, but not of them were. Not really any of them were like, serious gunfights or anything. And I think when. When we’re doing our missions in the SEAL teams, whether you’re getting to go into the hottest part of the zones or you’re doing some other kind of missions, you know, it’s. Let me think about this. It’s just kind of part of the job that you’re signing up for is. Is what you’re doing. And so you’re not really thinking about courage. You’re just getting done what needs to be done. And then the part where courage is contagious is. All right, when. When guys did expose themselves out on rooftops and during the hot zone, that took courage. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then for me, one of the more, I guess, courageous elements that I’ve had to go through in my career was confronting my. My buddies inside the SEAL teams of like, hey, this isn’t right, and this has to stop now. I know. I’m not sure if Jeff told. Brandon told you about the time where I was cleaning up the office. The teams. So we had some. Some posters up inside the office, and I had just done my. My two deployments. And so I’m new at the. What’s called the training detachment, and it’s mostly run by mostly senior guys, so now I’m a very junior guy. Again, inside the. Inside the office. And they had these posters up, and I was. 

Drew Forsberg:
And they said, hey, Drew, we have an inspection coming up, so can you know, clean up the office and make sure it’s all good before these inspectors come in? And I was like, okay, so what does that mean? They’re like, well, you know, take out the trash, make sure all this stuff is in the shredder bin, make sure all your class, all our safes are locked up. Make sure. There’s nothing on top of the file cabinets. Okay, what about these posters up here? Are the inspectors going to be okay with that? We’re talking about smut posters, right? Oh, yeah, those are fine. Okay. And then finally, we moved into a new building, and none of the smut posters made it over except for one. And it was on the back of the door. 

Drew Forsberg:
And the master chief, the senior enlisted guy of the whole office was like, hey, Drew, there’s this new policy with this. We need you to keep this one piece of paper on the door up on the front side so that guys can sign in and out every time we open the office door. And when we’re closed, it’s some new bureaucracy thing. So just. This is the only piece of paper that’s allowed to be on the door. All right, you got it, Master Chief. No problem. So that was the only piece of paper on the door, meaning at 11:00, almost midnight, I went into the office and tore down the other smut poster that was backside of the door. And I wanted to set that tone in the office because by then I was a little bit more senior. 

Drew Forsberg:
And when guys would put up some sort of poster in there, I was like, look, no, we’re professional war fighters here. We’re not frat boys. And this is the way we’re going to conduct ourselves inside of, you know, the training detachment for Urban warfare. This is what we’re doing. And they were like, oh, well, what are you going to do when you get back to a platoon? And I was like, well, we’ll see what happens. And so when I went back to a platoon as a. As an enlisted leader, I had another similar experience where the platoon space that I had was covered. Covered in smut posters. And I was like, oh, man, Lord, please give me. Give me a reason to get all this out of here. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I got a call from one of the commanders, like, hey, Drew, we’re getting all the offices painted, so can you get in there while everybody else is on vacation? Because I already taken my vacation time while everyone else is on vacation. Can you make sure it’s clear for the painters? Yes, absolutely I can. And so I came in and tore down all the smut posters. The office got painted. And then as guys came back to work, I sat them all down individually, like one one, and wanted to know, okay, what were their expectations for the next two years as we got ready for a training cycle and deployment? And as I heard their concerns, I wanted to let them know how I was going to Run things. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I made sure to mention, like, oh, and by the way, the smut posters are not going back up. You know, we’re professional war fighters here. We’re not frat boys. And the kind of posters that we’re going to be having up here have to do with getting your head in the game for war fighting. And I was surprised to see how many guys were like, yes, thank you. I am so glad that those are gone. And so that was. That was a tough thing for me. I would say that took courage because I was going against the norm, the cultural norm of the team at the time. You know, nowadays with the whole me too movement, none of that stuff is up. So I was. I was early to the show with all of this kind of. Kind of thing, and. 

Drew Forsberg:
But I knew I was upsetting the. The cultural norm. It’s a perfect example, like, ethical dilemma. Like, all right, do I just go along with the flow or, you know, risk losing a lot of rapport with the guys because I’m going to do what’s right. And it was. It’s always nice when God kind of capitalizes on it and. And makes you look even better in the end because you. You had the courage to do that in the first place. And so those are, you know, those little moments in my career where I had to kind of, like, stand up to my brethren and being like, okay, this is. No, we’re not doing this. Even to some of the commanders on my last deployment to Iraq, they were like, I don’t think you should be doing things this way. 

Drew Forsberg:
We want you to do it this way. And I’m like, I’m not going to do it that way, because if I did that’s going to compromise the entire program that I’m running that I was trusted to run. And so even though you’re senior to me, I’m not going to do that. Well, we’ll write you up. Okay, fine, you can write me up, but I’m not going to compromise the program that I’m in charge of just because you want. You think you know better and you don’t because you haven’t been through the schools that I have. So, you know, and. And there’s, like, there’s a potential fallout. What are they going to be able to do to me? I don’t know. But I. I have to stick up and. And do the right thing. And so it’s. It’s kind of. 

Drew Forsberg:
I don’t know, I guess ironic in that I didn’t get to, you know, Run across a rooftop with a bunch of bullets grazing my feet in order to pick up a guy and get him down the stairs as a down. You know, my courage has been needing to stand up to the things that were wrong inside of our community. And. And I guess that kind of leads up to what I would say was even the most courageous moment with. With the end of my career. 

Jeff Johnson:
Please, Drew, let’s hear it. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And by the way, I think that’s a. That’s a fantastically courageous story. I mean, to be able to deal with your peers in that kind of way and show real integrity is real leadership, and that becomes contagious. Very much so. So that’s. That’s a big deal. But, Drew, please, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Drew Forsberg:
So, for me, I’d say at the 19 and a half year mark, when I’m six months away from 20, and then you get your pension and retirement, all those kinds of things, was saying no to the vaccine mandate. So at September, beginning of September was when this whole thing came out. And, you know, it’s kind of funny how they. They have us all on a list, and they’re like, all right, these 12 guys at this organization still haven’t gotten their Covid shots, so bring them in. The mandate’s coming out, and you have until next week to go get it, or we’re going to put this piece of paper in your. In your record. And that’s just the beginning, because you’re going to be defying a lawful order. And if you do that, then you could get kicked out. All right, I understand. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I knew it was coming. And I was like, for the first time in my life, realizing this is. This is pretty critical, because I have no idea what is going to be the fallout when you’re given an order like this, such a big, large order, okay, the other order on deployment, and it’s me versus two other officers. Not a big deal, but this is me against the entire military and saying, no, this is indeed an unlawful order, and I’m not going to. Not going to go along with it. And, you know, when I talked about all the way back when I first wanted to sign up and I would talk to my recruiter, one of the things that he briefed me on was, when you take your oath of service, this is how it goes. 

Drew Forsberg:
And you’re going to say, I, Drew Forsberg, do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the. Of the United States. Of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed over me. And he’s like, now that part right there, I want you to understand obeying all orders means actually all lawful orders. And he had to break down what would be an unlawful order and what is a lawful order. And so I understood that at when this thing came out, this was not going to be a lawful order. There’s. I’m not sure how much you were tracking with the whole, oh, Pfizer is FDA approved. Well, Pfizer had two products. They had the bio and tech and they had Community. 

Jeff Johnson:
I was tracking with the whole thing, Drew, and there was no way I was going to get that shot. Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I, I already stood the loophole that they were trying to just gloss over and Jedi mind trick us and say, you have to go get the Pfizer because it’s FDA approved. I’m like, no, that’s not true. The other thing that changed for me was I became a warrant officer. And when you go from enlisted to officer, that oath office changes a little bit. So now it’s to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Period. There’s not that addendum. And to obey the orders of the office of the President of the United States and the officers appointed over you. Why? Because as an enlisted guy, you are paid to obey orders. As an officer, I would say that you’re paid to know when to disobey orders. That’s what the difference is. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then I could very clearly and say, this is, I am paid to know that this is not constitutional, it’s not lawful. And I went around to all the other 12 guys in my office and said, look, I will be the senior man here to say we’re not doing this. I’ve got arguably some of the most to lose because I’m at the 19 and a half year mark. We’ll see how long this takes to get across 20. But nevertheless, I will be the senior guy and fights this entire thing for you. And unfortunately, I mean, these are battle hardened Navy SEALs. And eight of them decided, you know what? It’s not worth it, not worth the risk. And it was me and three other guys who said, it is worth the risk. Because there’s a bigger picture here. 

Drew Forsberg:
You know, for me, for my religious exemption as I was submitting it was, I’m seeing fellow Americans, nurses, firefighters, teachers, all kinds of people that are losing Their job over this. They’re losing their job over their First Amendment right. So this is against the Constitution. And I swore to support and defend the Constitution. And if I was to go along with this order, then that would mean I’d betraying my oath to support and defend those Americans who are relying on their First Amendment. So we. We did fight back. We said no. But leading up to that, I mean, I had. I was breaking out in hives because I knew this was probably the nervous I was ever going to be like, man, I really have no idea what the fallout’s going to be like. And as cheesy as this sounds, I had the. 

Drew Forsberg:
The Braveheart clip. I mean, I had. Don’t get me wrong, I had scriptures, I was praying a lot. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
But one little carnal, as carnal as it is carnal trigger that I got from first from encouragement was that clip of Braveheart where, you know, he responds to those guys, yeah, fight and you may die. Run, and you’ll live, at least for a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that one for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they might take our lives, but they’ll never take our freedom? Yes. If I was 65 years old, 70, 80, 100 years old, in my deathbed, I would want to make sure that I could come back and say, you know what? I’m not standing for this. 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m not going to go along with these illegal orders from these elitist officers who are just saying, shut up and follow orders. It’s wrong and they shouldn’t get away with it, and it is wrong. And so I was very grateful. I mean, that was like, I have to do this. I have to go forward with it, regardless of what the cost is, regardless of what the consequences are going to be. This is the right thing for the entire country. 

Jeff Johnson:
And the fallout was. 

Drew Forsberg:
The fallout was, you know, as disappointed as I was that there was only four of us here in Hawaii, there was hundreds up on the east coast and West Coast SEAL teams. And we had started a little, like, insurgency, so to speak. All like lawful, you know, using. Using lawfare, unconventional lawfare, I would say. We had our own little network in cells, and were trying to understand, okay, how can we push back as a community? And it’s not just four guys here and four guys at that command and six guys over there. Like, now we’ve got an alliance of over 100 seals that are saying no to this thing. And so now there’s a little bit more safety in numbers. And I wish we had more. And all of us wish that we had more. 

Drew Forsberg:
Because a lot of those guys that were like, okay, I’ll go get it, they didn’t actually get it. They got fake cards. So when it comes to courage, like, man, you guys didn’t even have the courage to like, go get the real thing. He took the easy way out. I could have taken the easy way out. I was fake cards, but I just didn’t want to. I didn’t want to go down like that. This was. This was a fight for our country. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
So out of the over 100 guys of us, there was a couple of different lawsuits that went forward. The one that I got involved with was First Liberty. And First Liberty did something very smart. They’re like, okay, we understand that there’s two forms of this Pfizer vaccine, but what happens if we fight this way and we make this our case? What happens if they come up with a bottle of commodity? What if they come up with that bottle of the FDA approved stuff? What are you going to do? And so what our lawyer, very savvy, did was he’s like, I have a feeling that the Navy is not going to follow their own protocols. It’s written here in this manual and this manual in black and white. 

Drew Forsberg:
And what they’re going to do is they’re just going to rubber stamp all of your religious exemptions. They’re not going to give it the due care, which they are told to do by their own orders. And this is how they’re going to do it all the way through from your bottom level, OIC04 commander type, all the way to the Admirals in D.C. This is what they’re going to do. And when that happens, we’ll be able to approve it. And once we prove it in a court of law, then all of this goes away. And that’s exactly what happened. We had whistleblowers up in D.C. And they were like, we have the receipts to prove that we are rubber stamping all of these as no. 

Drew Forsberg:
And based on all of our personal testimony, like, yeah, the Commodore never sat down with me like he’s supposed to do on paragraph 2F of the 1730 manual. You know, like one thing after another. They completely broke their own protocol. So that’s why a judge in Texas said, all right, Navy, you’re wrong. I’ll stop every single person in the entire Navy who submitted for a religious accommodation is now untouchable. And they. We stayed untouchable until Congress came in and passed the. The defense budget that took away the mandate. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s amazing courage, Drew. Good for you. I mean, that really is. Wow. 

Drew Forsberg:
It was. It was great. You know, even knowing that we stood up for as many guys as we did through the entire Navy. It was kind of cool in the beginning, like, Navy SEALs fire, the lawsuit, and then it protected every single person in the Navy. I can’t help but be disappointed in a lot of other Christians inside the Navy that were like, oh, well, I was forced to. No, you weren’t. To me, you’re forced to. When somebody holds you down and hogties you and stabs you in the. So you sat down voluntarily, and if you even had the courage to submit for a religious exemption, you would have been protected, because my package was one of the first ones to go in. It was one of the first ones to get rejected. 

Drew Forsberg:
I was one of the first ones to offer an appeal, and I was one of the first ones to get my appeal rejected. And by the time all of those things happened is when the injunction came out and everybody was protected. And I. I didn’t do that on purpose, but I did keep mine very short, and I’m glad God gave me that testimony. Like, there was a lot of guys that put in, like, I was in pieces of paper just to gum up the system. Very smart on them. Tactically smart. I’m totally for it. I was like, no, I want to see. I want to see what happens as. As concisely and succinctly as possible. And so I can say, yeah, I was one of the first guys to get rejected and appealed. Rejected. 

Drew Forsberg:
And by the time all that happened, everybody in the Navy was safe. 

Jeff Johnson:
And how do you feel now with the CDC saying it’s the flu? I mean, that’s hard, Drew. It’s hard because we can’t say, I told you so, but, you know, because nobody likes that guy. But it’s hard. 

Drew Forsberg:
It is really hard not to. You know, I’m very clear. Like, everybody can repent. There are some people that are very close to me who thought I was completely crazy, and we had very rocky years, and they recently apologized to me, and they were like, by the way. And I. I didn’t trigger this. They just called and said, by the way, you were right about everything. I was wrong. I’m sorry. And went on for minutes to just tell me, like, that they were wrong. And I was like, well, praise God. And, you know, What? All of that animosity I had towards them because they ridiculed me and mocked me and all these things and just didn’t want to listen. Hey, all that’s gone, you know, because why? Because they took ownership and they apologized. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so for all those senior officers out there inside the SEAL teams who made some. Made the guys do some humiliating acts because they. They said no to this vaccine, I’m, like, incredibly bitter at those people. I know as a Christian, I shouldn’t be angry and bitter, but I can’t help it be. But, man, I tell you what, if they apologize and they just say, hey, I was really wrong, I’m really sorry, we should not have done that to you guys, then, hey, you know what? I can forgive that. But in the meantime, this. Like, this hubris and this ego of those that are holding on, okay, the. The verdict’s out. CDC is saying that we’re. We’re right and you were wrong. 

Drew Forsberg:
And for all those people that are like, no, I’m just gonna hold on to this, it’s like, all right, well, then I’m gonna let God deal with you, and I hope he deals with you harshly because you deserve it. And by the way, there’s still plenty of time to repent and. And just ask forgiveness. So that’s how I got it now. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, well, we’re kindred spirits in that regard. I don’t begrudge anybody for. For wanting to get the vaccine. I mean, I understand people running scared or putting their trust in something or whatever that is. But, you know, my. One of my mentors, somebody I really look up to, John Lennox, said where he said, don’t trust reason and use God. So you got that backwards. He said, you trust God and then use reason. And you know Isaiah 1:18, where God says, come now, let’s reason declares the Lord. Though your sins are like crimson, they’ll be like wool. You know, he’s always, throughout the Scriptures, calling us to use our mind and to be reasonable about things and think through things with him, but we’ve got to put him first. You know, as a Christian, I believe we’ve got to put him first. 

Jeff Johnson:
And so when it came up to this question of vaccine and all that sort of thing, that’s why you bathe things in prayer. And for my wife and I, it was. It was never more clear, you know, trust God and then use reason. Well, God said, no, I don’t think that’s. This. Something’s not right here. And then use reason. And if we got that backwards, you know, trust reason and then use God. Well, reason said, you can’t. You can’t. Maybe you can’t travel, you know, if you don’t. If you don’t get the shot, maybe you can’t do this and that and the other thing. Well, okay, we reconciled ourselves and said, well, then we won’t do that. But we wanted to trust God first and then use reason. And that’s what came out of that for my wife and I. 

Jeff Johnson:
And so I think we’re kindred spirits in that regard. But, man, that’s a lot of courage, Drew, and that’s a powerful testimony to standing on integrity and standing in faith and in what you believe in. I just want to ask you a few more questions before I let you go. I’m taking you into overtime here a little bit, and I sure appreciate it. But when you look back now with the benefit of the years that you have under your belt, you know, you didn’t come to faith until after that deployment, and that’s when God really got ahold of you. But you were inquisitive, and you were thinking about things and doing all that kind of stuff. When you look back over your life, can you see God holding your hand and leading you and guiding and directing you? I mean, was every step necessary? 

Jeff Johnson:
Or how do you. How do you make sense out of the road that you travel? Because it’s so fantastic. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. I mean, I see God in a whole lot of it, you know, whether it’s how I grew up and the, you know, my parents divorce or. Or, you know, him gravitating me towards surfing and what a great. What a great experience and a great thing that I still have. Yeah. One thing after another. I mean, like, I’m. I’m not proud of my sin. I don’t look back, and I’m not one of those guys that’s like, oh, it all happened for a reason. So now that everything is here, now everything is great. Like, I wish I did not have those scars of. Of my sin and all those partying years and all that stupidity. I wish those weren’t there. 

Drew Forsberg:
But, you know, big picture, God can still work around all of that, work around all, despite the sin, and still kind of channelize my steps into. All right, getting me familiar with California, getting me in the surfing, getting me into the SEAL teams, one thing after another, kind of like leading me up into this point, like, okay, Drew, you’re. You’re an idiot. You’re a sinner. But I’m just going to at least keep Directing you this way and you’ll, you’ll get cleaner as we go here. 

Jeff Johnson:
You gotta have, you gotta have a lot of faith and confidence in what lies ahead for you. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, I mean there’s a lot always like the question, but I’m kind of like feel like I’m just along for the ride and that makes it a whole lot easier and more fun for me. Yeah, it’s cool. I thought I was going to be in the military for be the 33 year mark. Turns out I’m out at 22, but I live in Hawaii. I got four homeschool great kids. Their ages are 8, 9, 10 and 12. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I’m kind of like living the dream right now. And you know, like I keep mentioned I’m a surfer. Well, I put the, put this on the altar several times. All right, Lord, you want me going to the SEAL teams, that’s fine. And then he stations me in San Diego and then, all right, Lord, if you want me to, you know, give this up, we can go to Fallon, Nevada if you want me to move this to, out of San Diego. No, I want to move you to the north shore of Hawaii where I’ve wanted to live since I was like, you know, a 14 year old boy. So for whatever reason, he keeps utilizing this for one reason or another. And meanwhile my kids are growing. I want them to make sure that they have a heart towards missions. 

Drew Forsberg:
And this is a really cool experience here in Hawaii because as people with skin color like us, we’re Howies no matter how long they live here. So there’s always going to be this almost feel of a mission field of you’re always going to be an outsider. All right, how do you get inside? How do you get inside the culture and learn the culture and respect it and get them a little bit more, I guess, culturally sensitive if God calls them out to the jungles of Papua New guinea or China or I don’t care if they’re at an engineering firm, I want them to have that heart and understanding for what missions are. 

Jeff Johnson:
How would you, how would you cultivate courage in somebody else? How are you going to cultivate it in your kids? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I, you know, courage is contagious. And so they knew what dad was going through even in the beginning of the COVID idiocy. The pandemic kicked off in March. By June, they told us. Now I’m still in San Diego at this point. By June of 2020, they told us in the entire Navy, across the entire continental U.S. You are not allowed to go to church. Couldn’t believe it. They released this order out on like a Friday and they want everybody to sign that. They understand, they agree that you are only allowed to go get gas, groceries and home. That’s it. And then they have this whole list of things that you’re not allowed to go to, like movie theaters, gyms, public beaches, and church services. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I was like, all right, kids, well, I never thought we’d see this in America, but the Navy just said we’re not allowed to go to church. Now, if I was a sailor in China for the Chinese Navy, would I ever be allowed to go to church? No. Okay, so if I’m not allowed to go to church as a Chinese sailor, would I still go to church? Yes. All right, so now what changes now that we’re here in America and there’s a Covid, you know, pandemic change? Nothing. So I don’t care what the Navy says. This is unconstitutional. Oh, and by the way of the litany of things that you were not allowed to go to, this is during the riot summer of George Floyd. And everything suspiciously missing on that list was riots and protests. 

Drew Forsberg:
So if I was reading it correctly, I could go to a riot or a protest, but I could not go to a church. Yeah, I’m definitely going to church. And I made sure to sit myself where the cameras would see me for our online church service because I’m like, I’m not gonna hide from this. There were plenty of other Christian Navy sailors from my church that were like, well, the Navy said we’re not supposed to go, so we’re not going to go. I’m like, this is cowardice. I, I’m not gonna like, really hold back. Looking back, I’m like, that was cowardice. Well, just following orders. Well, it’s cowardice is what you’re doing. So. But my kids got to see that. What are we going to do? We’re going to church. Dad’s that we’re putting God before man. Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then they were very understanding of what happened with the vaccine mandate. We were, they were being taught on what is clear about the masks, you know, because they were like, oh, the masks are required. Or they were like, we really want you to wear a mask to come into Home Depot. And so my wife was like, I’m not wearing a mask. And then she gets chased down by some like 62 year old, fat, you know, short haired Karen lady that’s Yelling at her. And my kids are witnessing my wife like stand up to this lady. And like, no, the sign says it’s a, it’s a request and it’s not a requirement. Well, it’s the law. No, it’s not a law. It’s a mandate. And a mandate is not a law. Those are two different things. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so if we’re going to go on to this, you’re wrong. And my kids got also that kind of dose of confidence, even at the point of, at a store, some little 12 year old Karen was telling my daughter, who was 8 at the time, hey, you need to be wearing a mask. She’s like, no, I don’t. The sign says please. She’s like, well, it’s the law. No, it’s not a law, it’s a mandate. And it’s like, well, you still need to. And she’s like, you’re not my mom, so please go away. So my little eight year old girl. Contagious. Yeah. Courage is contagious for sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
So the best way to teach it, the best way to develop it in other people is to step out in it yourself. 

Drew Forsberg:
I think so. 

Jeff Johnson:
Which is the whole Hebrews, chapter 11, you know, through faith. Abraham did this. Through faith, Noah did this. Yeah. Staying true to your faith, Drew, you’re impressive. Can you tell our audience about your ministry, please, before we wrap up here? Love to hear about that. 

Drew Forsberg:
Which part of the ministry? 

Jeff Johnson:
Whatever you want to tell us. The ministry to the veterans. 

Drew Forsberg:
Okay. So one of the things that I have a hard time with is this pacifist Jesus that most of America has been portrayed in church. This limp wristed Jesus who just goes around hugging everybody. I don’t see that in the scriptures at all. And so what I like to do is when I’m brought to other churches to preach is I like to teach on biblical warriorship. And so a lot of it’s focused around David’s mighty men, or many others, to include even Jesus, you know, in the whole Matthew chapter five about, you know, turning the other cheek. Okay, well, he starts it with, if somebody hits you on the right cheek, I can’t walk up to you and hit you on the right cheek unless I’m backhanding you or open palm slapping you. That doesn’t start. 

Drew Forsberg:
That’s not a haymaker, that’s not a boxing match, that’s not a fight. That’s me disrespecting you as a person. And so when Jesus says turn him the other, meaning turn him the left, it’s kind of like saying, why don’t you hit me like a man, hit me like an equal, Hit me with a right cross. Give me the best you got. And now everyone who’s witnessing this is seeing that you’re really just a bully. And so when he’s, because before that he’s saying resist not evil. I think he’s saying you’re not resisting it, you’re exposing it. And so I’m very big into wherever I can go and get this message out. I’ll gladly, you know, take that gig, so to speak. Like I got to at Cedar Falls, Iowa this past August. 

Drew Forsberg:
And just to let people know that there’s a whole lot more warriorship in the Bible than I think we give it credit for. The first time that the word Hebrew is mentioned. It’s right about before Abraham is about to go on a rescue operation for his son, his nephew Lot. He’s going to take 300 men that he trained in his own household and he’s going to defeat five Kings. That’s the first time we see Abraham the Hebrew come up. So I think there’s a lot more to warriorship than what we give the Bible credit for. And this dichotomy that we unfortunately see is if you love the Bible and you love poetry and you love songs and music, then you’re a purple haired, limp wristed soy boy. 

Drew Forsberg:
And meanwhile, if you’re a warrior, well, then you got to be sleeved up, down with tattoos, down to your knuckles and lift a lot of weights and chew tobacco. I don’t think that’s the case either. So there’s got to be a really good balance. And I think as Christians, we’ve kind of dropped the ball on training our next generation. If they don’t, if they want to stick around the church, it’s because they want to identify as warriors, not as, you know, those limp wristed people that just go and hug everybody. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. So this is what your ministry does. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. As I’m being brought out and preaching from here and there, that’s what my ministry does. Otherwise, my main ministry is raising my four kids. We’ve gone to a bunch of different churches on the island and were ready to join one and my wife was like, you know what we should do? We should pray for one to actually be in our own neighborhood. And so we prayed and wouldn’t you know, a guy came down from Alaska, he was like, hey, I just called one of these churches that you were visiting and I feel like I’m called to your town of Waialua and I want to set up a church there. I’ve been a missionary up in Alaska for 20 plus years. Like, that’s great. Where do you want to live? Do you have a place to live yet? 

Drew Forsberg:
I got a realtor and he’s like, well, I just interviewed at a place. Well, where is it? What’s the address? It’s my next door neighbor. So right now we go out my driveway and into his garage with his family and a couple others that we have. And my kids are singing. Every week they’re singing scripture songs as specials. I preach on Wednesday nights and we get good church that way. And my wife is playing the piano. She’s a pastor’s daughter. She learned how to play the piano as a kid, but she never really felt up to the skill level that we had at other churches. People really know how to play the piano. But now there’s no piano player, so she’s got to get back in and dust off her fingers and get in there. So she’s playing the piano. 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m doing some preaching and the kids are singing. And we’re just kind of starting our own little church plant out here in Hawaii. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, my goodness. Drew Forsberg, man of great courage, Navy SEAL and then some. I tell you what, you know, I’m. I’m mad, Drew. Honestly, I’m mad because I’ve been going the last week just nonstop. And today I was down at the plant and came back here to have the opportunity to visit with you. And I thought, you know, I’m going to take it easy this afternoon, but now I’m talking to a Navy seal. So I got to put on my exercisers and I got to go out for my little three mile run. So thank you very much. You motivated me to do that. I was hoping to sit on my butt this afternoon, but is there a place where people can get a hold of you, Drew, for the speaking engagements? 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you have a platform or do you have a contact or something like that you want to share? 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m mostly, I’m available on LinkedIn. If you find me on LinkedIn one like the number one Drew Forsberg. That’s where you’ll find me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Juan Drew Forsberg. We’ll try to put that in the show notes, too. Drew, thanks so much for being a part of this program today. This is a real blessing to me and everybody else who’s listening. So wonderful to meet you. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, likewise. It’s been an honor. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.