Balancing Life, Family, and Faith: Rachel’s Courageous Path

Rachel Vontobel-Newman is a dynamic individual with a rich multicultural background, hailing from Zurich and having lived in various countries across Asia and Europe. A seasoned finance professional, Rachel transitioned from a high-paced career in investment banking to embrace a life rooted in faith and family. She resides in London with her Canadian husband, Andrew, and their two children. Rachel is passionate about Christian apologetics, which she has studied extensively. Known for her courage and obedience to God’s calling, Rachel is also an aspiring author, working on a young adult novel that integrates apologetic themes. Her journey of faith and resilience inspires many as she continues to navigate life’s challenges with unwavering reliance on God

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Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads. It was the poet EE Cummings who said, it takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. And isn’t that true? Aren’t we always evolving and moving and growing to the next thing? And we don’t want to become stagnant. So we embrace that courage to learn from our past experiences and move on to the next thing that God has in store for us. And I’m really excited for you to hear from our next guest, another dear friend of mine, Rachel von Taubel Newman. She is got a multicultural background and a real transformational journey. You’re going to hear whole lot from Rachel. I actually spoke to her for about an hour on the podcast before we started recording the thing. We’re friends from years back and we had a lot of catching up to do and she’s been on a journey of faith and studying Christian apologetics. And she’s got a very full and fruitful personal life and a couple of young kids. You might hear them in the background too during the podcast. And anyway, she’s got a whole lot to say about the topic of courage. And I’m really excited for you to be introduced to my friend Rachel. And we just jump right in here. She is so happy for our listeners. I just want you to know that my dear friend Rachel and I have been talking for an hour already and haven’t even gotten into the podcast yet because I miss her so much and she’s so wonderful and her and I were able to attend a class on Christian apologetics in Oxford in 2016 and we have not kept in touch like we should, but whatever. God is good. So it’s wonderful to talk to you now, Rachel. So, so glad that you could join us on the program. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I’m so grateful that you thought of me and so honored to be on the program. And it’s catch up. I mean, seriously, if it was just for that, it would be 100 times worth it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Amen. Amen. Okay, so for our listeners, will you put yourself in context? So tell people who you are a little bit about your family and where you are speaking to us from. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So I am, I’m Rachel, obviously, as you said, I Married to the wonderful Andrew, and I live in London with my two children. Now, in terms of my background and my upbringing, I’m half Swiss, half Thai. Grew up a little bit everywhere around the world, mainly Asia and in Europe. And about eight. Well, about 11 years ago, I moved to the UK and I was only going to stay a few years, but that didn’t. It turned out differently. And then about eight years ago, I married my husband and he moved here, and then were only going to stay here a few years, and here we are. So. 

Jeff Johnson:
So is Andrew. Is Andrew British or is he Swiss or Canadian? He’s Canadian. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
He’s Canadian, yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, that’s wonderful. I did not know that. I’m sure I knew that at some point, but I didn’t remember that. Okay, and where did you. Where were you born? So where did you grow up? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So I was born in Zurich, but at the time my family were living in the Philippines. My dad worked in finance all over Asia, and then we kind of moved back to Switzerland, and then I moved to Singapore and then back to Switzerland and then to Vietnam, and then I finished my high school years in Switzerland, and then I studied in Switzerland, and when I graduated, I joined a bank where I did a program where we would move every few years. So I first moved to the UK and then I moved to China, living in Beijing and then in Shanghai, which is where I met Andrew in Shanghai, and then moved back with the bank to London in 2013. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, wonderful. And when I first met you, our cohort with apologetics was small. There were 11 people in our class. And I didn’t like you from the beginning because I thought you were the smartest one in the class. No, I did, though, because you had. You’ve been studying apologetics, though, longer than I have. What’s your background in maybe your. Maybe your faith background or studying apologetics? Give us. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Well, yeah, so my faith background. I didn’t grow up a Christian. My. My. My dad was kind of nominal. My nominal Christian. My mom was Buddhist. And then When I was 16, my mom and I both separately had an encounter with Jesus and she then became a Christian. And I kind of wasn’t really committed and so dabbled in and out and was involved with other stuff. And then when I was 26, I kind of. I had moved to the UK and I was not in a great place, even though I had the career and everything looked great on the surface, but I wasn’t doing well. And I attended an Alpha course as kind of a last resort, kind of like A let’s get my life better. And I think number five on the list was a tenant Alpha course, and number two was go down. And I mean, that’s. That was a priority. I think the thing with Christianity with me is that I had an encounter with Jesus, but I wasn’t able to reconcile what I felt and what I sensed and what I’d experience with my intellect, so to say, it didn’t make sense to me. And when I went on the Alpha course, they actually brought some evidence for Christianity. And that was, I guess, probably my start with apologies, where I was like, okay, this. This is convincing me from an intellectual perspective I can actually make a commitment now. And so I did. And that really awakened my. My love for kind of the more, I’d say brainy, nerdy part of our faith. And I could see how it would reach people like me. And then when I was in China, I had a very good friend who all of a sudden, one day, this was in two, 2013, said, Rachel, there’s this apologetics course, and I really feel you need to go on it. And I was like, okay, well, sure, why not? Okay, I’ve got a week. And I saw. I emailed them and they said, oh, there’s no places, but we’ll put you on the waiting list. And then I got on the waiting list, and I remember the person I was speaking to said, the moment I got on the waiting list, all the five people ahead of me dropped off, and all of a sudden I was in. So I attended this course, this one week course in Oxford, and I loved it, and I fell in love with it, and I just found it so stimulating. And it also gave me a lot of tools to talk to my friends in finance, talk to my. My family, just from a more cerebral perspective about my faith. And then I kept. After that, I just kept going. Anytime they had a course, I had a weekend. I just kept going back, and I keep going back. And then the last One was in 2016, where I met you. Wow. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. So you’ve been studying all along. And now tell me, what have you. What have you done since then in the apologetics realm? I mean, I probably with me, other than this little podcast, I’ve just been buying books and reading them at a ridiculous clip. Is that the same thing for you? And of course, sharing my faith, you know, doing the. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah. I mean, to be honest, after I met you in 2016, the season that followed was quite a disruptive season for us. But this is something that. That will likely talk About, But I, I, that was the time when I left my career in finance and then a lot of things happen after there. So I, I don’t think I would say that I spent a lot of time still studying apologetics per se. I think I’ve spent a lot of time studying. My new area of interest is ancient Hebrew and kind of Mesopotamian culture. So I think I’ve shifted more from like the evangelical or like the evangelizing part of it to just more understanding our faith, understanding how it, context, how can we enrich people’s or believers, understanding that of the Scripture so that it really comes alive to them. And it’s also written appropriately and not misread or misinterpreted. So I think that’s kind of been where I’ve nerded out in the past few years and what I’ve done with it. I mean, I’m not, I’ve not done much. I’ve done a bit of teaching in my church, probably not that good, so I wouldn’t go out there looking for it. 

Jeff Johnson:
I doubt that. I’ll bet it’s pretty fantastic. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
No, I think, I think I have a lot to learn. I think what I’ve been told, some people love it and some people are just like, it’s so much information, Rachel. So I think probably I need to, I still have a way to go. But yeah, so that’s kind of where I’ve been and I’ve been. So I don’t know if I, I told you this, but back in the day, I had already started writing, so writing was, is kind of a passion. And so that’s what I’ve been trying to work on and off alongside everything else in the past few years. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you’ve got a manuscript in the works? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I do. So I’ve got two thirds, probably two thirds, three quarters of a first draft of a novel, which in itself is a work of apologetics. I mean, I don’t, I feel like I’m going to regret having spoken about it now because. 

Jeff Johnson:
No, not at all. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Part of me is just like, maybe if I don’t say anything, I can just tuck it away, find it one day in the attic. And they’ll be like, what was this? But it, so that’s probably the biggest kind of apologetic work that I’ve been focusing on. And it’s kind of geared to young adults and it’s through the story, through kind of fantasy, exploring the different worldviews that young People are sold nowadays and why actually it’s not truth and why actually there’s so much more sense in the Christian message in the gospel. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I’m glad that you mentioned it now, Rachel, so I can at least hold you accountable to that, because I want to read the book now. This is fantastic. Let me. Yes, you made a mistake. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Okay, I did make a mistake. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. I want to ask you this question, though, about the quality of courage. You know, we talk about. This is the courageous crossroads. So courage is our topic here. And I want to know, is faith required to have courage, or does faith enhance the courage that you already have? Because it took a courage for you to reach out and say yes to Jesus and then learn a little bit more about your faith. There’s some courage there, but it feels like faith maybe enhances that later on. Speak about that. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah, I mean. Oh, give me a sec. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, that wasn’t a very good question. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
But, no, excellent question. I, I, I just, I want to give an equally good answer. But I think when I’m thinking of courage, especially with, in relation to my faith, like, it’s helpful for me to look at what, I guess what the opposite of courage is or what the absence of courage looks like. And I think that’s very much decisions in a life led by fear. And I would say prior to giving my life to Jesus, that was very much the life that I was living. It was very much dominated by fear and trying to build constructs that kept me safe. And so I think courage, it’s not that the courage was absent during that time. It’s that it was much easier to be courageous if I had a support system, if I had a safety net. Does that make sense? I think in my walk with faith, like, I feel like my safety nets have been gradually deconstructed. And so my courage in that sense has grown exponentially because I’ve had to step out in things not knowing what would happen, not knowing if I had, you know, a safe job to back me up or whatever. And I’ve just seen how, you know, God has come through every single time. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. And that’s a great way to put it. So your courage could come from financial resources. Well, I’ve got enough money so I can make this bold move, or I’ve got a supporting spouse so I can make this bold move. But then with your faith, it’s less of that and more leaning on Jesus. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Well, your faith then becomes your savior. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Like, way that enables the courage. Right. So I think it’s a different form of courage that I’ve seen in my life in any case. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you feel like your courage has grown over time or just transferred from one thing to another? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I, I think it has. I think it has in many ways. I think I don’t need to have all the answers in the way that I used to. And I think it’s been very helpful marrying someone with that similar vision. I always say this is a bit cheesy. When Andrew and I first got married, we kind of had a marriage motto, which is something we turn. We go back to all the time when we’re making big decisions. And that’s. We always say we don’t make decisions out of fear. We don’t make decisions out of fear. And so we’ve lived that way. And I, I can see, you know, were talking about having these reminders of answer prayers and what we’ve done. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
We’ve written down in our family Bible all the times we’ve asked the Lord to come through, and then we’ve written down every time he has. And I think just having that written record, it does enhance my courage. Even at times when I don’t feel it just going back and remembering that there’s something in the remembering that just builds that faith and it just, you know, it spurns you on. And I think I’m very, I’m a very black and white person. And the way I see it is basically, you know, either he’s real and his promises are true, or he’s not and we’re all stuffed. You know what I mean? 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So if he is and his promises are true, well, we might as well live in accordance to that and, and see if he shows up. Obviously within measure. Like, I don’t step in front of moving trains and. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
But you know what? I’m. 

Jeff Johnson:
Absolutely, absolutely. We’re called specifically not to test it in that way, but to test and see that he’s good for sure. And that talks about reaching out to him. And I was just reading in Jeremiah again the other day where the Lord was telling Jeremiah, you know, you’re going to reach out to me, you’re going to pray to me with all of your heart and I’m going to hear you and I’m going to respond to you. I mean, that’s a powerful promise and that takes courage to walk into that, you know. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Very much so. 

Jeff Johnson:
The society that we live in now is from. See, I feel like maybe I’M not a good interviewer because I’m just going to say this, and maybe a good interviewer wouldn’t say this, but I feel like it’s more caustic all the time. You know what I mean? It’s just. There’s so much negativity, there’s so much animosity, there’s so much gnashing of teeth and there’s so much falsehood that’s floating around all over the place. Do you feel like courage is lacking in our society now, or do you feel like courage is being called to a greater height now, or are we living in a time of great courage or where it’s less and less all the time? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I mean, I would say. I don’t think. I would say we’re living in a time of great courage, I think. And, you know, I think there’s always a danger of kind of falling into these mindsets based on what we’re hearing. And also getting older, you kind of look at back on the old days where everything was better. But, yeah, I don’t feel like right now we’re in. In a society that’s particularly courageous. I think we’ve been very blessed, you know, I guess since the Industrial Revolution where standards of living and centers of comfort and safety and health have gradually improved. But I think what. What that has done is it’s kind of eroded our capacity for adversity. And so I think when people. Or I think it probably eroded our perception of our capacity for adversity. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So I think what I’m saying is, I think nowadays in our society, there’s so much of our time is focused on being safe and being comfortable and have the things that we think we need that I see that a lot, especially in younger generations. There’s not really a strong belief in your own capacity to get through things that are hard. And I think that’s one of the reasons we’re seeing, you know, such high anxiety levels. I know a lot of people say it’s social media, but I think also there’s something to be said for the fact that we haven’t had any major famines or major wars. And I’m not saying I’m wishing these things on people, but there is a certain resilience that past generations have had where, you know, when you’ve gone through something, you know you can get through it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So you have more courage for anything that might come. You know, you have that kind of sense, like, okay, I’ve been through that. I can take on more, but I Think when we as a whole, as a society, when we haven’t really collectively been through a lot, I think that has really reduced the amount of courage. I see. But I might just be really being really negative. But I think one thing that came to mind when you were talking as well is I think what’s also really lacking is in our current society is a sense of perspective and specifically a sense of hope. We were talking about having that eternal perspective and having that eternal hope a minute ago. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And we’re in a society that, you know, I think throughout most of history, people had some sense of an afterlife or some sense of things continuing. Now, most people would, I mean, maybe not most people, but a large majority of people would consider things that life ends at death. That makes everything that happens in this world much more important. Or it magnifies every suffering and it magnifies it. And so I think because we’ve lost that as a society, we’ve lost kind of the big picture view of, you know, let’s put it simply, this too will pass. I think, I think that’s affected our courage levels. I think it’s affected people’s ability to take risks. Maybe not take risks, but I guess take on potentially difficult situations head on. Does that make sense? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I totally agree with what you’re saying and you’re inspiring a thought and maybe I need to like study this and research it a little bit. But I feel like the more we’re fixated in society now on our feelings and being subservient to how we feel, even to the point of identity, who am I? And it’s more associated with your feelings as opposed to the fact of who we’re made to be in Christ. You know, I feel like that being subservient to your feelings erodes courage. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I feel like I. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
When I’ve got, when I’ve got my feet anchor, you know, when I’m on shifting sand, I’m just trying to save my life. And it’s not such a courageous endeavor. But when I’m. My feet are fixed, the world can be spinning all around me and I can say no, this is what truth is. You know what I mean? And I feel like that’s calls out more courage. I don’t know if that makes sense, but. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And I think, you know, we’ve swung from one extreme to the other. Obviously there was a time where feelings were just not acknowledged and everybody just kept on keeping on and which wasn’t ideal either. But I think Nowadays, everything is being pathologized. Everybody’s just completely focusing on, like, how do I feel? How does this make me? Like, it’s almost like it’s been elevated to a point where it’s very unhealthy. And I was talking to a good friend of mine who’s a therapist, and she was saying, oh, bear with me one second. I have a three year old trying to come in. 

Jeff Johnson:
For sure, for sure. You’re fine. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
You okay? Yes. No, I can’t do that. But I was speaking to a friend who’s a therapist, and she was saying how people will come in and say, you know, they’ll talk about breaking up with their boyfriend and they’ll refer, they’ll say, well, you know, this background noise of my daughter now. But they would say, you know, the trauma of breaking up with my boyfriend. And she’d be like, well, that’s not the right term. Trauma isn’t the right term. And so I think when you experience parts of life that are just normal parts of the human experience, you know, separation, breaking down of relationships, grief, and you kind of make it something abnormal by calling it trauma and something that shouldn’t. Then, then that feel fills you with fear, I think of. Or potentially you’d be fearful of even living. Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
There’s nobody to go out in the world and be traumatized. But, but pain is just a fact of life. It’s, it’s part of our journey in this world. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right, Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So I, I agree with you. It’s like when the avoidance of pain becomes everything because our feelings are everything, then that will take any ounce of courage away to face things that might be difficult. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, that’s a great perspective, Rachel. So we’re coming down to the question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yes. 

Jeff Johnson:
And your sweet daughter in the background is going to help you answer the question. Don’t. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
No. 

Jeff Johnson:
This is what I love about. This is what I love about it. This is real life stuff. So this is fantastic. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Very vocal. She loves to talk. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yes. Yay. We hope we hear her some more. I got one other question before I ask you, before I come down to that question. Do you, I don’t even see it. Feel funny even saying the word identify because that’s that. I know word has been hijacked in our society, but let’s claim it back. Yeah, so claim it back. Okay. Do you identify as a courageous person do you feel courageous? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I don’t know if I would. I don’t know if I would identify as that, as so much. I think when you ask me what. What would I identify as, I think I would identify as a reliant person. And. And not in that people can rely on me, but that. And I am. I feel every day completely and utterly reliant on God. Like, yeah, every. I wake up, it’s just like, you know, you. You gotta. You gotta get me through and. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So I don’t necessarily. I don’t know if I would call myself courageous because I don’t feel very courageous most of the time. Most of the time I’m looking up going, help me, or, you know, I need your help, or. Do you know what I mean? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yes. Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Especially if I compare myself to before I was a Christian, which is really ironic because before, as a Christian, I felt very confident. I was in control of my life. I had it all figured out. And so I think I. I would have felt more confident, courageous back then, but chronically I was more fear led, if that makes sense. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Whereas now fear is not such a constant. But I feel much more reliant on another person, which is Jesus. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. I’ve shared this before on this podcast. That’s a. That’s a great answer. I’ve shared this before on this podcast, Rachel. But I remember when I was talking to a dear Christian friend of mine and I was at the end of my ropes. I don’t even know if it was a marriage issue or if it was a work issue or if it was just a personal thing. I’m not sure what the issue was, but it was the end of the world for me, and it was baffling. And I remember sitting down over coffee with him and telling him, I. I got nothing left. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what move to make. I mean, I was just absolutely empty. And he sat back with a smile on his face and he says, good, now God can use that. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, now that you’re out of your options, now that makes room for God to come in and really do it, which he most certainly will do, and he promises to do. And that was an important lesson for me. So when you say reliant, identifying as reliant instead of correct. Courageous, necessarily, I think that’s a beautiful way to put that. Isn’t that where we all want to be is where we’re just like, please, Lord, help me and really mean it, you know? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah. Ideally, I Think so. I think especially in living the Christian life, what. His way is so much better. So much better. 

Jeff Johnson:
It is. Okay, Ms. Rachel, an hour and 30 minutes into this, which the audience is only going to get a hear 20 or 30 minutes of what is the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Okay, so I have thought about it. I remember when you first asked me, I was like, jeff, do you have any ideas? I would say one of the most courageous things I’ve ever done was stepping away from my career in finance. And I think I had worked so hard to get to that place and I had invested so much in myself in it, and it very much was, it was very much something that I only realized later. My identity was tied up in. Even though the Lord had kind of worked on me over the years and I felt, okay, I don’t. This is not my identity. He’s not relying on it. It still was. It was very much a sense of security and safety and identity that I was walking away from. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And I think to give some context, like, it didn’t happen out of the blue. I didn’t just up and quit my job one day. I wouldn’t recommend anybody do that. But it was a process of several years. And one of the key things that happened in those years is I got really sick. And so for about a year, I was kind of bedbound for several months. And then I had health issue after health issue. And okay. And. And, you know, that kind of. I think there’s something about long term illness that kind of puts your life in perspective. And I just started realizing, okay, I love what I do, but there was a time where I really loved the job. And then I kind of started loving it less and less. And. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And then with the health issues, I really realized, okay, I can’t keep running like I’m, you know, 22 forever. I, I have a body that’s a limited resource in that sense, like it’s still mortal and I have to take care of it and I have to take care of myself. And so I was. There was several things going on simultaneously. I was feeling the Lord call me out. At the same time, I was realizing I was reaching the end of myself physically. And also I was just very much losing the love and the passion for that industry. And so leaving. It was huge. And it took me years to get to a position. And you met me right after I left. And I don’t know if you’d noticed, but I was spiraling at the time. Because I was like, well, what am I now? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And what do I do? And, you know, who’s going to. Who’s going to take care of me if it’s not, you know, me? And so. So that was huge. And. And I know. And I’m not. And the time after that required a lot of courage as well, too, because, you know, I had just gotten married. Andrew had come to the UK to work, but he was just starting out here in his industry and a kind of a. You know, I won’t say that. That it was, you know, God kind of sorted everything out immediately. It was kind of a continuous walk in courage where we then felt that to have a child when were supposed to have a child. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And I remember there was one point, I was two months pregnant with my first, and were getting evicted from our place because the owner wanted to sell. We were running out of savings, and we got a letter in the post that Andrew was getting deported because his visa. And so were, you know, kind of a month away from having no funds, no place to live, and him. And having no husband, effectively. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And I just remember Andrew and I. Andrew doesn’t remember this. It’s so funny. He only remembers the good stuff, which is a blessing. But Andrew and I were just one. One day, I think one morning were just sitting there together and both in tears, and were just like God, like, you. You got to sort this out. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And he did. 

Jeff Johnson:
Gonna do Rachel. That’s amazing now. So back to leaving your career, though, that was an equal measure, you say, of the Lord calling you out and the timing of the whole thing and all of that and the health issue and all those sorts of things. So it culminated. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yes, it did. And. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you had to choose against the safety of just sticking it out and just being in there to look, I know this is something that I’m supposed to stop. Did you. Were you clear about that? I mean, this is. I need to quit doing this. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah. I mean, so get to get it quite. Yeah, it was a few. A few years prior, I had actually in a dream about the Lord. She wanted me to leave prayer. And I remember waking up the next day and saying, okay, Jesus. You know, I was a young, fairly young Krishna. Okay, Jesus, I quit today. Do you want me to quit today? And. And I felt. I just felt the Lord. I don’t know if I was right or if I felt the Lord say, you know. No, don’t be silly. You love what you’re doing right now. You’re in the right place. Just wait. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
So that kind of planted the seeds. Okay. That this might become. And over several years I then just, things started changing and I had a lot of favor and a lot of success up until that point. And then, but then I moved to a different part of the bank which was in the investment banking unit. And then I ended up working 80 hour weeks. So I was working to 1am right before I got sick. And, and that’s where I started feeling, okay, this isn’t for me. This, this just doesn’t, it doesn’t align with my values. Like, and God was gracious in that time. Like he. I encountered him in a wholly different way when I didn’t have time and capacity to invest in him. But so that was kind of the start of things. And then with the health issues and everything else coming together and also the favor started when I went to start in that industry. When you have long term health issues, even though I came back to work after having them, you notice how the favor kind of dissipates. And maybe this was just my perception, but I remember doing interviews for a next role after I was sick and anytime I met, when I had a gap of like a year in my CV and whenever they asked, you know, what happened and I told them I was long term, like there was a long term sickness, you’d notice a change in their demeanor and I wanted to be truthful, obviously, and you notice a change in their demeanor and I wouldn’t get the job. Whereas previously, whenever I interviewed for roles internally it was, it would, you know, most of the time I would get somewhere. And so I started realizing, okay, this industry might not give me the space I need to not just follow God in the way I want to, but also to take care of myself in the way I want to. And I’m not saying like, I’m not, it’s not a condemnation of the industry as a whole like a lot of people. But this was just the situation I was in and just the Lord just speaking and being very clear in very different ways that it was time to let go. And looking back, I’m so grateful I did because I didn’t realize how much of my sense of safety and faith was reliant on a steady income and then reliant on, you know, a certain amount of savings. Yeah, I didn’t realize how much of my identity of who I was tied into, you know, being this person who is successful in finance. Yeah, I think so. That a lot of that was Stripped away. And then obviously motherhood stripped away. More, more of that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Still, what you’re describing is, sounds a lot like obedience to me. So my question is, you know, listening to the pangs in your heart and most importantly, listening to God calling you out of something and into you don’t know what, just to make that move. I mean, that really sounds like obedience. So then the next natural question I would have is, is courage necessary for obedience? Are those two things absolutely related? 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah, I think so. And I’m always a bit, or worried about making absolute statements that way, but I, I, I think so. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Obedience is not an easy thing. And I think for me, maybe it comes a little bit, it’s a little bit easier because my life before Christ was so defined by rebellion and control and. Rebellion. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Oh, it’s just been, I never want to go back to that place. I’ve kind of, I’ve been there and done that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And so for me, it’s never been a question of the Lord says, and I’ll do. And even if I’m not hearing right or I get messed up sometimes, I have to have faith that he can catch me in that. You know, it’s, what is it? Is it Proverbs 3, Trust in the Lord, commit your ways to him, and he will make you pass straight. I’m probably quoting it wrong, but it’s if the intention is obedience, and I’m doing my very best to follow his word, his written word, and also finally the Holy Spirit, then I have to have faith that he’s got me covered. And so, yeah, urgent obedience are very much tied to each other. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And it’s interesting because if you talk to Andrew, my husband, he’s had a very different life to mine, and he kind of grew up in a Christian home and has always been a good Christian his whole life. But he’s, he has his heart set on obedience as well, too, and he incredible amount of courage. And so I think it is helpful to be walking with someone who kind of, we spur each other on in a way to kind of do what we think is right and most of the time. And it’s also helpful to have that kind of accountability. And I think accountability is also very important when it comes both obedience and courage, because you have people who are just kind of reckless and they’ll follow every whim and kind of call out the Holy Spirit. And so I think with the years, like it’s what I said, I can be courageous in a framework. And so you know, my courage, my obedience comes in a framework that I have a God who loves me and a God who’s all knowing and a God who’s eternal. But I also have a church and a community that provides me with accountability and guidance, and I have the scriptures that, you know, are the best reference points. So. So, yeah, I don’t know if I. Did I answer your question? 

Jeff Johnson:
Absolutely. No, you absolutely did. Yeah, obedience. But it’s not. It’s not based in just whimsical kind of foolishness or anything. It’s true obedience, and it’s trusting in the Lord. Last question. Let you get back to your kids. I’ve taken so much of your time, Rachel. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
I’m loving this. I mean, I love my kids, too, but this is more. Okay, well, my work now is great, but I kind of work on my own and I’m not in an office, and I don’t talk to people a lot of the time. So this is wonderful. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, we’ll have to do a part two then, for sure. On down the road. So the last question, I would give you something in the lines of, what do you want your kids to know about courage? Or how would you encourage courageousness in your children? Yeah, like that. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Well, that’s a really good question. And I. I don’t know if I have a complete answer on that, because we all know having kids, it’s like you just don’t know what you’re doing most of the time and all. That’s. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
That’s why I told you earlier, I’m looking forward to grandkids, because then, you know, what’s, you know, right or wrong, and it’s not too late. But I think with my. With my kids, it’s interesting because my eldest, he’s very much like me, and he’s very sensitive, and he can be prone to fearing. And so we’re trying to encourage courage with him. And I think one way we do that is we kind of try to push our children out of their comfort zone, but at the same time, we provide a safe place that they can come back to. And so, you know, it’s a struggle for me because I just want to keep them protected and guarded and just nothing ever bad happened to them ever. But I think allowing them to make mistakes and allowing them to be a little hurt sometimes, but providing a place for them that they can come home to where there is warmth, where there’s comfort and there’s grounding, I think they can do because, you know, we really model God to our children. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
In your walk with Christ. That’s what happens. Sometimes you get a little bruise, sometimes you get a little hurt. But some, you always have a place to come back to where you can get healed, where you can be ministered to, and that’s safe. And I. So creating that kind of innate sense, that kind of learned feeling or muscle memory, I guess, for lack of a better expression in them, is probably the best thing we can do. So it’s kind of guiding them, but letting them make their own mistakes, which is terrifying for me. Terrifying because they’re small. But I don’t know what I’m going to do when they’re teenagers because I was not. I mean, thank God I didn’t. Really bad things didn’t happen to me as a teenager because I was taking a lot of risks. And so thinking of my kids doing that just terrifies me. And actually I should be asking you that question. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Grown up or, you know, fairly grown up kids. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
But. And in theory, that’s what I’m thinking. That’s probably the best thing we can do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Because you want to equip your children with experience. And I want them to be, you know, getting everything out of life that God has for them. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I need to give them that introduction to the Lord. But then I, they’re adopted in on their own, so they’ve got to do their own thing. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And then, and that’s the thing. I mean, we obviously, we teach them about Jesus. We. I try to teach them the. Of scripture. And, and I, I think what’s important and not, you know, worth mentioning is I don’t believe in outsourcing that to Sunday school either. 

Jeff Johnson:
True. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Children learn in the household and they also learn by observing us. So when we make scary decisions, we don’t let them see the fear and the trepidation. But we kind of, you know, age appropriately, inform them of, okay, the step of faith we’re making. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
And for them to see, okay, God comes through. You know, this is a consistent. In our life, he comes through. But it’s a balance because, you know, I have friends of missionaries or who grew up as missionaries and there would always be such a sense of lack with their parents living by faith that they kind of go the other way and they never want to experience that again. So it’s kind of letting them in, but finding the right balance so they’re not like, oh, this is a horrible life. I don’t want to lead it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. I really just think that. That. I mean, my personal belief is, I like that phrase, more is caught than taught. I mean, not that the teaching isn’t important, but really, the way that I live my life, I think is the most profound example for my children or for anybody that I come into contact with. And I had a friend of mine tell me one time that our kids receive, like, Navy SEAL training because we have them from the day that they’re born until they take off for college or get married or whatever. You know, there’s a period, a decent chunk of time that we’re 24, 7, pretty much with our children, and that’s akin to Navy SEAL training. So they, there’s no lying to them. I mean, they can see the way that their parents live their life. And if I’m living a life that’s close to Christ, that does the work, if I’m living a life that’s marked with courage and faith and that sort of thing, that’s what they’re going to pick up on. And conversely, if I’m not, they’re going to see that, too. And when they get in a pickle later on in life, when they get into a situation where they don’t know whether to go left or right, they’re going to recoil naturally to that Navy SEAL training, probably make a few mistakes. Hopefully none of them are fatal or, you know, any of that sort of thing. But they’re going to make some mistakes, but they’re going to learn on their own, but always come back to that Navy SEAL training. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I feel a responsibility as a parent to live my life according to the way God wants me to live it, because that’s the most powerful example for my kids, totally. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Because they. You know, I remember growing up, I’d often hear, do what I do as I say, not as I do. I don’t know. And I, I being like, that’s just so hypocritical. And, you know, it is like, you have to, you’re right. You have to model the behavior and own your mistakes. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Hard. Because I struggle with, okay, well, I wasn’t perfect today or I didn’t do the right thing or. But I think there’s something for children to learn and making mistakes and modeling. How do we, how do we own mistakes? How do we deal with it, to recover from it? You know, But I’m saying all this, and I don’t know how they’re going to turn out in 20 years. So hopefully. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Some truth in it, God knows. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, Ms. Rachel, we’re gonna save the rest of it for part two. And I’m reminded of the. I’m reminded of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, you know, that dancing duo. And they asked Ginger Rogers, how did you do it? Because Fred Astaire was such a great dancer. And she said, I just did whatever he did, except I did it backwards and in high heels. And I’m sitting here in this air conditioned little office with my microphone and you’re in London and you’ve got your two beautiful children that you’re managing at the same time. Sure, they’re hungry for lunch and you got your mother there that you’re taking care of and everything else. So courageous. Yes, you’re very courageous. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Rachel Vontobel-Newman:
Bless you. It was such an honor. Thank you, Jeff. Let’s do it again sometime, please. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web@crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at infocrossroadsapologetics.com or infoossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.