The Harder Strength: Jason Wilson’s Story of Courage and Recovery

In this episode, host Jeff sits down with Jason Wilson, a Des Moines-area native and longtime fitness enthusiast, to talk about what courage really looks like in everyday life, tracing Jason’s path from a turbulent school transition and relentless work ethic to the deeper, harder kind of bravery required to confront addiction, trauma, and self-deception. Jason shares how his definition of courage centers on doing what’s uncomfortable and scary, taking leaps that weren’t part of the plan, and following through even when it’s messy, then answers the episode’s core question by naming sobriety as the most courageous thing he’s ever done, describing the slow progression of alcoholism, the turning point that came through therapy, 12-step recovery, and faith, and the ongoing practice of accountability, humility, and asking for help. Jason Wilson is an infrastructure engineer with a background in exercise science and corporate wellness, a former college athlete, and a disciplined lifter who also competed in bodybuilding; he’s a father, a person in recovery, and someone who emphasizes community, honesty, and spiritual grounding as essential tools for staying sober and encouraging others to take the next courageous step.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. I was off last week. Please forgive me. I was on a little trip down to Florida. And I probably should tell you this—it’s going to… I’m going to sound like I’m complaining. Well, I’ve started it now, I got to finish it. It was about the same temperature in Florida as it was here in Iowa when I was down there last week. I mean, I can pick the times of the year to fly, I’m telling you! But anyway, it was a beautiful time. We had an amazing trip down there. But the weather was less than ideal. It was a little bit chilly. Still warmer, arguably warmer than Iowa, so I was grateful for that. And the fellowship was absolutely fantastic. And it was wonderful to get away with my wife. But still looking for some really warm temperatures and some brilliant sunshine. That would be nice.

But here’s a little bit of sunshine for you. My next guest, Jason Wilson, is a friend of mine. I have an absolute blessing of being able to sit close to him and observe him with frequency. And I’ve got such admiration for him. And I was really hoping to get him on the program. And he decided to step up to the microphone and answer that question: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And you’re going to be as enriched as I was hearing his answer. So without further ado, here is my friend, Jason Wilson. Jason, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Grateful that you came in to let me ask you some questions.

Jason Wilson: Thanks, Jeff, for having me.

Jeff Johnson: All right. You and I have known each other for how many years now?

Jason Wilson: Four. So I think I met you in 20—or yeah, 2022 sometime when I came in my first meeting.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. And you and I shared the same love of bodybuilding.

Jason Wilson: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: One of us works harder at it than the other.

Jason Wilson: But I still have faith in you.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. For all you listeners out there, that’s a total lie because I’ve asked Jason to actually put together a workout for me. And he’s done that just so graciously. You know, you put together a beautiful workout, and then I sit it just in my file cabinet. And it doesn’t… I don’t seem to get more physically fit. Do I actually have to go into the gym?

Jason Wilson: Correct. You have to kind of follow it, you know, the diet, the whole nine yards. It doesn’t work very well sitting in your inbox.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. This isn’t what I want to talk to you about today. So I want to talk to you about courage and all that sort of thing. Okay. But I’m curious where your love of fitness came from because you’re into it.

Jason Wilson: I think it was probably like my dad used to be big. I just remember my dad growing up like he always had a barbell with weights on it, like rolled underneath his bed. And I would get up in the mornings and I’d see him doing curls, nothing but curls, nothing else. And my dad had enormous biceps and his forearms are bigger than his biceps.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, wow.

Jason Wilson: And so it’s still that way even though he’s 72 years old. So 73, something like that.

Jeff Johnson: Was he doing that because of his work or something?

Jason Wilson: I just think he did because he liked it. And you know, just, you know, just the cosmetic thing of it. And you know, we always liked Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and stuff like that. So you’d see the big stay-riders on TV and Lou Ferrigno on the Incredible Hulk. And it was just kind of like, yeah, I just… I just like the aesthetic piece of it. You know, the look. And then of course being an athlete all through high school and college, you know, it’s kind of necessary to be strong.

Jeff Johnson: I mean, you’ve had some competition experience and that sort of thing too. So have you done that your whole life?

Jason Wilson: No, last year is the first year I’ve ever done that. So that was the first year that I actually had the courage to go give it a shot. And finally, you know, try that out. So yeah, did that last year.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. But you’ve been into fitness your whole life.

Jason Wilson: Yes. 100%. My first education was in exercise science and corporate wellness. And so ideally I would have worked at a business that had a, you know, wellness center in it. And I would have worked there as, you know, either, you know, a director or something at that level. It was really big back in the 90s. So that was an actual program at UNI.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

Jason Wilson: And so did that. Really couldn’t find a job in the mornings. So I thought I moved to Arizona where there’d be a more market for it, but there wasn’t. So I worked as a personal trainer for a while and then decided that’s just a glorified babysitting job of adults. Kind of like you.

Jeff Johnson: Not to put too fine a point on it.

Jason Wilson: Yeah, kind of like me.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. But I’ve learned to let it go.

Jason Wilson: You know, you can lead the horse to water, but it has to drink.

Jeff Johnson: Right. Sure. I’ve got just a comments trail of disappointed personal trainers. My best. Okay. Do you get a degree in something or is it certification?

Jason Wilson: Yeah. So a combo. The degree was it’s a Bachelor of Arts which… you know, it wasn’t at the time. It was a Bachelor of Science, but they since switched it. So it’s like Health Promotion Corporate Wellness with a minor in Exercise Science.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

Jason Wilson: And then I was a certified strength and conditioning specialist. And so I just did that on my own. But you could… you could walk right back into that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, I would have to…

Jason Wilson: I probably… there’s probably some updating of a… you know, probably some testing since it’s been 30 plus years since I’ve touched any of it. But I don’t know that you really need a certificate. You know, if you’re studying up on that stuff and you just have a general knowledge and passion for it, it’s kind of like… you know, I have a technology degree and that’s what I work in, you know, as an infrastructure engineer. But if someone had just taken the time to give me my first help desk job with no education, I would probably be in the same position I’m sitting in right now with my job and career.

Jeff Johnson: Well, there’s a lot of reason why I’m a fan of Jason Wilson, but I got to tell you when I did see the photographs from your competition, I felt lacking. It’s probably the best way. But it was like, I’m never… my ribcage is never going to look like that.

Jason Wilson: Well, and you know, there was a real neat experience, but the bad… the flip side of that is once you get away from that stage look, then you feel lacking going forward.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, if you don’t maintain that…

Jason Wilson: There’s just no way to maintain it. There’s absolutely no way to maintain that shape. You know, unless maybe you’re doing a performance-enhancing drug or two, but it’s pretty hard. Or sleeping on like some great city street or something like that.

Jeff Johnson: Right. Okay, Jason, give us a little bit more. We’re going to get into the topic of courage and I’m going to come down on that question: What’s the most courageous thing have you ever done? But before we get there, I want to get a little bit more background for the listeners on who you are, where you’re from, that sort of thing. So whatever you want to add about that.

Jason Wilson: All right. So I was born in the Des Moines area. So I grew up over kind of by… our first house I lived in was over in the Des Moines area, kind of off Hickman. And then my family moved to Beaverdale near my grandfather and I went to Catholic school. Did that from kindergarten all the way to fifth grade and then my parents moved to West Des Moines. And so moved out there. Really didn’t belong out there. My parents found a new neighborhood that was pretty affordable for them. But you know, just for, you know, being the oldest of six kids… just really didn’t fit in very well from, you know, just a lot of perspectives. Both my parents, you know, when I was growing up, both my parents were either in school or working at the same time. So it wasn’t uncommon for me to be at home all night with my sisters and brother for a period of time watching them so that my parents could rotate between work and then school. My mother was a lifelong nurse her entire career. My dad was an engineer—electrical engineer. Worked for Eastman Kodak. My mom worked for Mercy Hospital and various other doctors around the Des Moines area. So yeah, it was a pretty dramatic change going from a Catholic school over to a public school. And then just all the things that come with being in West Des Moines at the time.

Jeff Johnson: You enjoyed Beaverdale.

Jason Wilson: I did. I really… you know, I fit in with all the kids there. You know, it’s very… a lot of similar backgrounds. You know, nobody had the biggest house or the best shoes or anything like that. You know, just… it was just a real friendly, safe place to grow up back then.

Jeff Johnson: So you went from a… yeah, you went from a very familiar thing to “keeping up with the Joneses” kind of…

Jason Wilson: 150%. And it was pretty obvious right away. I mean, just, you know, and it was kind of… it was challenging for sure.

Jeff Johnson: How old were you when you moved there?

Jason Wilson: After fifth grade. So probably the worst time possible to ever move in that sixth grade, you know, middle school timeframe. So yeah, I just… yeah, it was hard.

Jeff Johnson: Was it hard for your siblings too?

Jason Wilson: They were young enough. So like my next youngest sister is four years younger than me. So and then it’s all the way down to… trying to think what my youngest sister is. I want to say 38, something like that. Yeah, 38.

Jeff Johnson: I wonder about people that are, you know, in military families, you know, and by necessity they’ve got to move quite a bit or something. I always have a lot of empathy and respect for people that do that because I think that’s got to be so hard to go from one location to the next.

Jason Wilson: Yeah, it was. And then I think about when I was a sophomore, my parents moved to Winterset because they didn’t like living in West Des Moines anymore. And so yeah, they moved to Winterset and I fought that tooth and nail. I didn’t want to go. You know, going from, you know, I think my class was 600 or 800 kids at, you know, West Des Moines Valley, and my class size in Winterset was 99. And so I fought that. I commuted. I was the first open-enrolled athlete in the state of Iowa when that became a thing.

Jeff Johnson: Seriously?

Jason Wilson: Yes, the first in the whole state when they finally opened that up. Because you know, the rules were if I moved to Winterset, you got to go there. And so I open-enrolled to Valley and I commuted back and forth every day.

Jeff Johnson: So how did you do that? That was pretty hard.

Jason Wilson: You know, and I played four sports. So I was up at, you know, five in the morning, heading into… heading into Des Moines to, you know, get weights and stuff like that in. And then after school, there was a practice of some kind. And so thankfully my grandfather, he had moved over into West Des Moines right across the street from Valley. So he had an apartment there. So I stayed with him a couple nights a week. And so, but it was just… it was just hard. You know, my grades were lacking. I wasn’t that great of a student to begin with. So my grades were lacking because I’m not getting home till 6:30, 7:00 o’clock at night.

And so, so yeah, I kind of inadvertently met some people down there. You know, some guys just by going to the gas station. You know, people down in small towns are real friendly like, “Hey, who are you? Are you that guy from West Des Moines?” And I’m like, “Yeah,” and they’re like, “You should come to Winterset,” and I’m like, “Yeah, whatever.” So over time after running into these guys, and they would just show up to my parents’ house, unannounced. Like, “Hey, want to hang out?” and I’d be like, “All right.” So, you know, a couple times of, you know, doing some late nights out on the country gravel roads—and you know what that entails.

Jeff Johnson: You were actively being recruited.

Jason Wilson: Yes. And so, I was interested in that. But then the problem was that I was open-enrolled at Valley. So what I had to do is not only was I the first one, I had to go petition to get out of my open enrollment. So, I think it was as a junior. It was in the middle of track season. I had put in the petition right around Christmas time and it kind of took forever. And, you know, I remember this vividly because we just got done with CIML’s conference track meet. And my mother wasn’t at the meet, neither was my dad. And when I got done and got back to the school and was getting changed and everything, my mom showed up to the school and said, “I got approved. You have to be at Winterset tomorrow.”

Jeff Johnson: So that was the end of your Valley experience.

Jason Wilson: Yes. I walked right into my coach’s office, Jim Dewey, who’s a pretty well-known activities director. You know, in Waukee and then Waukee Northwest before he retired. I walked in his office and said, “Hey, coach, you know, I open-enrolled… you know, obviously to be here, it’s just not working out for me. I’m not fitting in well. And the, you know, the community, everything’s killing me. So I got approved to go to Winterset. I’m going there tomorrow.” And, whoo, that was pretty… that was hard for him.

Jeff Johnson: Hard for him.

Jason Wilson: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: Hard for you to say it.

Jason Wilson: Hard for me to say it. Hard for him. Because it was just like… I mean, it wasn’t hard for me to say because my mom’s like, “This is it. You asked for this. It’s… it’s on.” So, so yeah, I walked out of there. You know, there wasn’t much to be said. I mean, he was not happy. And so then I went to Winterset and I participated in the Little Hawkeye Conference Track Meet the following day.

Jeff Johnson: So he wasn’t… he wasn’t happy because you were…

Jason Wilson: He wasn’t happy because… well, there were a few things at play there. And, you know, I was the third runner on three teams that qualified—three, you know, relay teams that qualified for the state track meet.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. So he’s got a fight.

Jason Wilson: So he’s got, yeah. And then on top of that, he was one of my neighbors in West Des Moines. So he kind of lived over in our neighborhood. And he would, you know, give me rides to school and stuff. And, you know, I’d hang out with him and his wife. They were very young people at the time. And so there was a little more to it than just being my coach. He was a friend and someone that helped me out along the way. And I just really didn’t take the time to think about that, you know.

And years later, I actually got to, you know, talk to him about that. And, you know, because I had seen him afterwards, you know, I saw him at like the state track meet and he hadn’t much to say to me. And then, you know, I saw him later in life at a couple of fundraisers and he really didn’t have a lot to say to me. And even when I was at a Waukee track with my son, he was just kind of very standoffish. And so, you know, years later, I had sent him an email apologizing, you know, trying to make some amends. And I didn’t hear from him for a while. And then he came back with… he said, you know, he’s like… he was appreciative of it. And he said, “I came to learn over time that, you know, people are going to make decisions in what’s best for them. And it took me a long time to understand that in my own right.” Because he’s like, “I did a lot of the same things even as an adult,” you know, tell me how… “I left West Des Moines Valley to go to a small Waukee school to be the athletic director.” He’s like, with the notion that Waukee was going to turn into a West Des Moines. And he’s like, “Everyone was telling me that’s never happening. It’s a small cow town. Nothing’s going on there.” And then years later, he’s the athletic director, obviously, of a huge school and then goes and takes on a role of brand new Waukee Northwest.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wilson: So yeah, I think it took him time to… but I mean, it was a decent little experience. And I saw him after that. We talked for a little bit.

Jeff Johnson: So we’re painting the picture of courage. I’m going to ask you…

Jason Wilson: You were to say something… no, just after that, I mean, you know, I finished high school in Winterset and then went off to Northern Iowa. You know, after a brief stop at a junior college down in Creston, Iowa, to play baseball. And then I transferred up to Northern Iowa, which where I played baseball for a little bit and played football for a little bit and then graduated.

Jeff Johnson: What position did you play on the football team?

Jason Wilson: I was a… I was a tailback in high school, but I kind of was more of a receiver in college because I was taller. But my hands weren’t the greatest, but speed is what I kind of relied on.

Jeff Johnson: College athletics—was that a good experience for you?

Jason Wilson: Yeah, I mean, I built a lot of lasting friendships. I was out there… I mean, I was… they called it the “Bone Squad.” They would let anybody walk on back at that time. And so I made a lot of friends. And you know, I just got there and get my head kicked in every day by the scholarship athletes. And, but each and every one of them had my back after that. I mean, it was just, you know, just building that camaraderie. That’s really what I was looking for.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. More than anything. That’s good. What’d you do after college?

Jason Wilson: I worked for about six months pulling network cable. And then I packed all my things and moved to Scottsdale, Arizona.

Jeff Johnson: Like you do. Okay, Scottsdale, Arizona—what drove you to Scottsdale?

Jason Wilson: So my uncle, who’s since passed away, and my aunts, and then my other aunt and all their kids have lived out there forever. And so I thought, I’m not married, I don’t have a girlfriend, I don’t have any kids. I have nothing holding me here. I loved Arizona. So I just said, I’m going to go try this out. So packed all my stuff, moved out there, and took a job as a technical recruiter.

That’s when I kind of fell in love with the idea, you know, of getting into technology, which my dad had been driving at me a long time before. He’s like, “You should get into technology. It’s going to be a booming business.” He’s like, “You have the knack for it.” You know, of course, as a 15, 16-year-old young man, you’re like, “I… you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ll find out, you know, I’ll make my money doing this other thing,” which, you know…

So, so yeah, I moved out there. And when I decided I wanted to get back into technology and went back to school at night and then worked during the day as a—selling insurance, property and casualty. So got licensed in that. And then was out there for about six years before I moved back to Iowa.

Jeff Johnson: You’re not a lazy man.

Jason Wilson: No, I can’t be.

Jeff Johnson: I mean, I’m not trying to judge. I’m just saying from my perspective, it seems… so you get things done. Yeah, you’re not sitting still.

Jason Wilson: Right. Yeah. When I… when I put my mind to something I want to get something done, then I do it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Okay. Now I want to go back and dip into that. Thank you for all that backstory. I want to dip into this topic of courage because you’re already talking about making some adult decisions in your youth. That necessarily would have taken a lot of courage to make those decisions—open-enrolling and then canceling that open enrollment and going back down to and talking to your coach and friend, the guy that shepherded you and all this kind of stuff and whatever. And I’m sure the move from Creston to UNI was…

Jason Wilson: Yeah, interesting story when it do.

Jeff Johnson: Yes, I went from… yeah, not a townie town to a college town.

Jason Wilson: Yeah. So both experiences had their, you know, good points and bad. But yeah, Creston’s a whole different thing. That’s a… that’s a pretty tough little farm town if you’ve ever been there.

Jeff Johnson: Well, I’m very familiar.

Jason Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, you know, you can get in the wrong… wrong area of town pretty quick down there. They’ll let you know about it, especially the college kids. They hated the college kids there. Even though it was a huge income maker for them, but, you know…

Jeff Johnson: Not well received.

Jason Wilson: No, not at all.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. So define courage for me. When I say courage, what do you think of? How do you define that?

Jason Wilson: I think courage is doing something that, you know, you weren’t expecting maybe is uncomfortable. Takes a lot of ambition and drive to do. That could, you know, frankly, be just scary to do. You know, at the end of it. I think that’s what it means to me.

Jeff Johnson: Is it a good quality? Is it a bad quality? Is it neutral?

Jason Wilson: I think it can have its good and bad points. I mean, you can be courageously stupid, right? Or stupid… have stupid courage. Like, you know, “I’m going to go skydiving.” That takes courage, but there’s also a level of, you know, danger to that courage. Just as with anything, right? But I think there’s good courage too, like taking a leap of faith in something that, you know, might not be comfortable to you. That wasn’t maybe in your plan of all plans in life. And just saying, “You know, I’m going to do this and I’m going to do it to the best of my ability and see how it turns out.”

Jeff Johnson: Okay. So that last bit that you talked about there—taking that leap of faith and doing that thing. Do you identify as a courageous person? Would you describe yourself as somebody that’s courageous?

Jason Wilson: I wouldn’t. I don’t think I’d identify with that. I think I’ve done some courageous things for sure. But I don’t know if I’d define myself, you know, identify as courageous.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

Jason Wilson: I think that’s… I feel that’s for other people to decide. To a degree.

Jeff Johnson: That’s probably smart. No, I respect that. That’s a good answer for that. Who… who do you look at and say, “That’s a courageous person”?

Jason Wilson: Yeah, examples in your life… You know, I’d probably say my two uncles and my cousin. They’re all ER doctors or were when they were alive. You know, I think it takes a lot of courage to go in there every day and see the same things over and over and over with no ability to… you know, you have the ability to help people, but you don’t have the ability to fix them, you know, for long term. I think, you know, that’s… that’s always stuck out to me as something, you know, that takes courage. My brother is in the service. You know, he… that’s obviously courageous to go to Afghanistan and Iraq when you’re 18 years old, you know, twice as a field medic and have to deal with that all the time. So I see something like that as courageous. Like, you know, he’s a special forces trainer, which there’s a lot of danger involved in that.

Jeff Johnson: So, do you… do you feel like we live in a courageous time?

Jason Wilson: No.

Jeff Johnson: That was quick.

Jason Wilson: No.

Jeff Johnson: Nobody… no, you don’t see that.

Jason Wilson: Nope.

Jeff Johnson: Exhibited.

Jason Wilson: I think people want to take the easier route out or hide behind something that will maybe mask that courage.

Jeff Johnson: Talk more about that.

Jason Wilson: You know, I think people can say, “Yeah, you know, I’ll do that or I can do that,” or, you know, but not really follow through. So, I don’t know if that made a lot of sense, but yeah, I just think that people are, you know, want to take the easy route out and try what’s… then do what’s hard.

Jeff Johnson: So, yeah, yeah, no, I get that. Okay, well, I’m sure I’ve got a lot more questions for you.

Jason Wilson: Sure.

Jeff Johnson: Let me jump in right here and ask Jason Wilson: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

Jason Wilson: Well, one time I thought it was when I was not trying—not intending to meet, you know, my now ex-wife and, you know, her two kids and marrying her and raising those two kids as my own. Because that was not on my radar screen at all. So, I had kind of resigned to the fact that I was probably just going to be a bachelor my whole life. So I could do what I want and not have anybody, you know, be tied down to anything, per se. I just didn’t… you know, and I had some relationships earlier on when I was younger that I, at the time, thought, “That’s my benchmark. This isn’t… work out. I just need to stay single and, you know, live that bachelor life.” But at one time I thought that was the most courageous thing I did. And I would have to say that that pales—while it was, you know, an amazing experience, we raised two great kids and then had our own together—you know, I think probably getting sober is probably the most courageous thing I’ve done to date.

Jeff Johnson: How did that come about? How did getting sober come about?

Jason Wilson: Yeah. My life was just slowly going… swirling down a toilet. You know, I’ve been a drinker since I can remember. You know, I had my first drink at the age of 10 and became a daily drinker by the time I was 18. You know, as soon as I get out from under my parents’ thumb. You know, and then I just drank. You know, I had a period of drugs when I lived in Arizona. It’s a lot easier to access there and just, you know, but kind of gave that up and went back to, you know, drinking more full time. And a lot of people, you know, that are alcoholics like I am, you know, say that, you know, it was pretty manageable until it wasn’t.

I had a lot of good years where it was manageable. You know, I didn’t have… you know, my wife at the time was not, you know, looking over my shoulder, but out of it, there weren’t bad things happening. You know, I wasn’t physically addicted to it at this point. You know, it was providing me the satisfaction that I needed, you know, drinking was, you know, after a day of work or whatever, you know, until it didn’t—until it became a necessity to actually live, you know, all day every day.

So, yeah, I, you know, tried to go the route that everyone does. You know, as someone that’s an engineer and in technology, there’s always an answer to fix something, right? There’s usually six different ways to fix something. And no matter what I tried was not working. I mean, I bought books. I did different types of therapy, hypnosis, acupuncture. I’ve even read somewhere that that would fix it. Or help with it.

Jeff Johnson: And it didn’t.

Jason Wilson: No, nothing did.

Jeff Johnson: You needed a beer after the acupuncture.

Jason Wilson: Correct. Yeah. It’s painful. It’s painful, especially the way they put it in your head. You know, it’s… it’s kind of funny.

Jeff Johnson: It’s like, would you consider that desperation though? When you’re going to… when you’re going into acupuncture and trying all those things for the purpose of stopping drinking? Like, “I want to shut this off, so I’m willing to go do this.”

Jason Wilson: I don’t know if I was wanting to shut it off. I think I was probably like a lot of people do: “I just want to learn how to drink like a normal human being.”

Jeff Johnson: Give me a little acupuncture.

Jason Wilson: Right. Yeah. So I can just, you know, have five or six beers a night after work instead of 15, 20 or whatever the number is. So yeah. I always joke that, you know, people ask, “When did you know you had a drinking problem?” and it’s like, you know, you probably have a drinking problem if you’re buying books and herbal supplements trying to help you with your drinking problem and then hiding all these things from your family. Like, alcoholics, we hide our booze, but when you’re hiding your reading material and other things I tried to stop drinking from your family—like in odd places—and they find it? Probably a good sign you got a drinking problem.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, no, that wasn’t enough to stop me. There’s a coloring book over here that says, “How Tommy Got Sober.” Is this yours?

Jason Wilson: “It looks like you’ve colored in some of the… it must have been the last person who lived here even though we built this house.” Right. “Why is it… why is it hidden behind drywall?” Yeah. Guys.

Jeff Johnson: So what… okay, tell me what—and do only as much of this, of course, you feel comfortable doing, but I reserve the right to ask whatever kind of hard questions I guess I want.

Jason Wilson: Sure.

Jeff Johnson: What would… what… give me a snapshot of what alcohol and drug use would look like for you during the course of a day. Take me to Arizona.

Jason Wilson: Arizona was pretty well made—pretty maintained. You know, so I’d come home after work when I… you know, I had a couple roommates. I’d have a six-pack of beer and watch sports or whatever. We’d go to a game. Living in Arizona, you got a lot more access to, you know, basketball, football, baseball. So a lot of golf, you know, so it was pretty common to drink every day, but I was pretty disciplined about holding it off until four or five, six o’clock whenever I got home from work. Then weekends, that would be a lot of drug use from like Friday afternoon until Sunday morning or Monday morning, you know, because you could really cut loose.

And so that’s kind of what that looked like. And then, you know, that went on for a number of years. And then, you know, the drug use was just like Friday afternoon straight through till about two or three in the morning on Monday and then sleep for three or four hours and go to work. And I had a group of friends that I kind of hung around and did this with and that group got smaller until it was just me and one other friend, you know how that goes. And it’s just kind of… and one day him and I were just like, “I can’t do this anymore. I just physically cannot do drugs anymore.” I mean, it was just… it was, you know, being up for two or three days straight, you know, doing that every week for years. And just finally, you know, I just one day was just like, “I’m not doing any more of that stuff.” And so, so yeah.

So then my buddy and I were kind of like, “Well, we just get, you know, alcohol and, you know, that’s more acceptable. It keeps you out of trouble if you’re not behind the wheel.” So yeah, that’s kind of, you know, what that looked like. I… you know, when I did drugs, I would drink all day too. I mean, just to kind of keep the edge off. So yeah. And then once I stopped that, I just… you know, I kept my discipline pretty well with my drinking for quite a long time. You know, if it wasn’t a weekend, then I was pretty disciplined—four, five, six o’clock at night. But the amounts always kept, you know, increasing as time went on.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So just got worse.

Jason Wilson: Yep. Over any period of time. Yeah. It’s worse. Never better.

Jeff Johnson: So, you said that that is manageable. You had a manageable period where you were doing that. So I would imagine the difficult part is not having to explain to people the reason why I’m going to the basketball game is so I can drink, instead other people are going to the basketball game and then just enjoying a drink while they’re there.

Jason Wilson: Right.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So you said it was manageable. So you felt like you were having a problem with it or you didn’t feel like you had a problem? I mean, I knew I drank too much. I mean, I think, you know, it’s… I think it’s abnormal to come home and have a drink every day of the week or several, as I was doing. I think that’s abnormal. But, you know, I wasn’t in any kind of trouble per se with the law or anyone else for that matter. And so, you know, I was going to my job every day. I was going to school. You know, I was doing all those things. So I didn’t see it as a problem at the time.

Jeff Johnson: Until you did see it as a problem. And you said that it was a courageous thing for you—that’s the most courageous thing is to stop drinking. So take us up to that point to where… to where it took real courage for you to not ingest that stuff anymore.

Jason Wilson: Well, you know, it’s kind of a… things progressed into getting… into work—you know, getting to worse. And then, you know, in 2020 when COVID reared its ugly head, we were working from home permanently. And, you know, at the time we bought a place down at the Lake of the Ozarks and our two older kids are home from school. So, the wife and I would be down at the lake with our youngest because he was doing school remotely. And then the older two kids were at the house here in Johnston with their, you know, fiance (now fiance) and husband, you know, doing school remotely. So we just stayed down there and I just saw over time how my discipline time of five or four or five o’clock became two o’clock… became three o’clock. You know, became nine o’clock in the morning. And so, you know, I had to obviously hide that, but we kind of worked in separate rooms with the door shut.

Jason Wilson: So I was able to sneak out and do my thing.

Jeff Johnson: And what’s your wife’s suspicion?

Jason Wilson: No, not at all. You know, she was never… she never really said anything about it.

Jeff Johnson: You hid it well enough.

Jason Wilson: Yeah, I hid it well enough. You know, there’d be times where I’d, you know, on a Monday morning after, you know, a full week of drinking, I’d be, you know, a little shaky and I’d need a beer to, you know, get the edge off. But, you know, in 2020 when I started cranking it up like that, then it became like I needed to drink at like six or seven in the morning just to be able to function. Yeah, function with my younger kid at the time, you know, who was eight, nine, ten years old at the time. So, so yeah, it just… then I became physically addicted to where I actually needed it all the time.

Jeff Johnson: Okay, now stop there because we started this podcast with me admiring your physique. Because your physical fitness is exceptional. And you studied that and you knew that. So, at that point, when you’re having to get up at six o’clock in the morning just to take a—just to get the shakes to go away… are you completely insane and you’re not noticing what’s going on, or are you saying to yourself, “I’m killing myself, I know this is not good for my body”?

Jason Wilson: I don’t think I… you know, I don’t think I did. You know, it’s interesting through all that, I never ever missed any exercise, whether it was my drinking or drug use. I always made it to the gym. Even if I had six or eight beers down the hatch, I would still go to the gym. I always ate well—I’ve always eaten well. Never been much of a fast-food person. I always knew that I would need to drink a lot of water to counterbalance, you know, the amount of poison I was ingesting on a daily basis. So, always ate well, always very hydrated. So, I still looked… I didn’t look the part of a true alcoholic that I was at the time.

Jeff Johnson: So, you’re still just… this is the functional piece that’s moving into the “coming off of the rails” piece. But you’re still doing math calculations and whatever—”I need to drink eight glasses of water and do this.” So, keep going.

Jason Wilson: Yeah, no, so I was just… you know, I never pulled that out of my routine. But, I’m not sure where we’re going with that.

Jeff Johnson: I’m curious where the courage piece came from for you to stop.

Jason Wilson: I think it was… you know, I started seeing a therapist in late 2021. And she had told me… you know, I was in there trying to get her to tell my doctor I need medication. And, you know, like we do. Right? Anything but, you know, going to an AA meeting and putting in the work. And I wanted something in the form of a pill or someone telling me I’m going to be okay on the other end of the table. And she was pretty adamant with me that she wanted me to go to a meeting. And I was like, “Yeah, I’m not doing that.” She goes, “Okay, well, I won’t see you again unless you go to one.”

Jeff Johnson: So she wanted you to invest in a 12-step program.

Jason Wilson: Because she said that’s the only thing she’s ever seen in all of her years of being a therapist. She’s like… you know, she told me, “I regularly attend meetings as a, you know, visitor, just to make sure I’m, you know, up to date on all this stuff so I can talk to my clients about it, patients about it.” So, yeah, I went to an AA meeting, you know, via Zoom and was all excited to tell her about that. She’s like, “Yeah, not good enough. You can leave. I’ll come back with you scheduled appointment after you’ve gone to a real one.”

So, I did that. And that’s kind of when I think I really “caught” alcoholism. Because going to meetings and stuff and, you know, learning the steps and listening to other people really brought out all… you know, like, “Okay, I’m not doing the right things here. I am causing harm to myself, to my family. I’m jeopardizing my career.” I mean, that’s really when I started understanding what a kind of… I don’t want to say lowlife, but that’s what it felt like, you know, the things I was doing.

Jeff Johnson: You were getting a proper diagnosis now. Once you sat down in a 12-step meeting, you’re like, “Correct. Okay, this is what it’s been.”

Jason Wilson: Yep, and yep, I am every one of these people in this room. And, you know, all the things that I said I wasn’t going to be because I’m like, “You know, I’m married. I’ve got a good career. My kids love me. I haven’t been to jail since I was 21. I’m, you know, I’m not abusive. I’m not all these things.” And, you know, as they say, you know, with alcoholism, it’s just a matter of “when.”

Jeff Johnson: That’s right. If you keep at it, those things will all come true. Well, the people that are listening know they’ve heard me talk a lot before—you know, you and I share the same disease.

Jason Wilson: So, yeah.

Jeff Johnson: So we can talk about that for sure. It’s interesting, the paradigm that we all have of what the alcoholic and the drug addict really looks like. And, you know, when you look in the mirror and you realize it’s something different, that can be a shocking thing. So did that do the trick for you?

Jason Wilson: Oh, no, I had plenty of more digging to do. So, you know, I had some bouts of sobriety here and there. I think I met you shortly after I started coming to, you know, a meeting and, you know, I was going to check a box off. You know, she said I need to get a sponsor. I’m like, “All right, I got one. I’m almost cured.” And I remember you talking, you know, in the first meeting you were at and you were saying a lot of the things that I had… you know, you’re trying to discount your way out of meetings and how you didn’t have all these things. And I’m like, “There’s my guy. I’m like, he’s going to get me out of this. We’re going to be done in a couple of months, just like anything else. We’ll have this problem solved.”

And, you know, it kind of got progressively worse from there. You know, I had, you know, a few bouts of sobriety, decided to go to treatment, and that was more than anything just to get everyone off me. So went to treatment in Minnesota. And I know I wasn’t ready to be there. And so came back from that and, yeah, and by this time I had been unfaithful to my wife at the time. And that’s really when I started going off the skis because the weight of that was a lot. It was something I couldn’t handle. And so when I got back from treatment that fall, I had a little bit of sobriety and then started drinking again. And then the wheels fell off the cart.

I mean, I was blackout drunk and I’ve never been a blackout drunk before. I mean, there was probably the last two or three months of 2022 that I don’t remember much of anything. Yeah, it was kind of going to meetings, but I really wasn’t working anything. And so on January 1st, I went back to treatment and got sober. And that lasted about a year, a little over a year. And I was going to meetings. I was kind of working the program—wasn’t, you know, working with a higher power, if you will, at the time. And so yeah, I started drinking again and that went on for several months.

And then it was June 5th of 2024. Yeah. That I think I talked to you. I just said, “Hey, I’ve been drinking again. I don’t know.” And I don’t know that I would have stopped had my girlfriend not caught me. Because I was driving her back from meeting my parents and I had beer cans under the seat of my car and they all rolled out when we came to a stop. And she said to me, “What is that?” and I just kind of flippantly said, “What do you think it is?” And, you know, she got out of the car and said, “I don’t want to talk to you until you’ve talked to your sponsor at the very least.” And so she’s like, “I’m going, you know, inside.”

So I left. And of course, like any good alcoholic, I wasn’t ready. You know, so I carried on for another few days. And then I think I called you. And I remember we talked and you just basically said, “You know, it’s time to come clean.” And I didn’t… I don’t know that I wanted to at the time. I was like, “All right, I’m going to go back to treatment. I’m like, that’ll fix everything.” So I’m sitting there looking online and, you know, I just kind of sitting there… something in my head was like, “What are you going to learn, you know, going back to treatment? Other than the same thing you’ve already, you know, been taught twice.” And, you know, what’s… what’s going to be the outcome this time? You know, your company’s already been very gracious with giving you the time off that you needed prior to get this thing worked out. I had a team leader at the time—she’d seen alcoholism destroy her family—father, mother, brothers and sisters. And she was very, very understanding of it. And, you know, I thought, “What’s that going to be this time?” Because, you know, I did it twice in a six-month period where I’m like, “I have to be out of the office for X amount of weeks.”

And I don’t know what came over me. I was in my bathroom just staring at myself in the mirror and I just said, “You know, I have no other option here. And the only thing I haven’t tried is praying to God about it.” And I just got on my knees and I just said, “I need help and I can’t do this.” It’s kind of an emotional thing, as you can see, for me. And it didn’t fix anything at the time, right? I mean, but it just got me off the thought process of, you know, “I can go back to treatment and solve this problem.” It got me out of that mindset. And it got me the mindset that I need to put my head into, you know, the book, start giving at meetings rather than just taking, work with my sponsor.

And I think, you know, I think I’ve got to go to the hospital and do a little bit harder. Pray a little bit harder. And, you know, it was a struggle for sure. You know, I probably should have gone to the hospital. There were a couple of times where I had, you know, 9-1-1 pulled up on my phone because I thought I was going to go down. My Thursday night meeting, I came clean in front of the whole group, you know, took a white chip. And you and I were supposed to meet in a meeting the next day. And I remember getting up and I’m like, “I can’t drive a car right now.” I physically could not drive a car. And I called you and you’re like, “I’ll bring the meeting to you.”

So, so yeah, after that, just kind of… you know, I… that, that probably to me was, you know, about as courageous as I could get, you know, to this point in my life, to just be like, “All right, I got nothing here. I’m going to turn this over to my higher power that I call God and see where it takes me.”

Jeff Johnson: That’s a lot of courage, Jason. It’s a lot of courage. And I’m proud of you. How long ago was that now?

Jason Wilson: That would have been… I had my last drink on late in June… so, my sobriety date is June 6th of 2024. So, coming up on two years.

Jeff Johnson: Good for you. How do you… how do you stay sober then? How do you stay courageous?

Jason Wilson: Well, just by praying. I mean, I have to… I honestly, that’s been the biggest game changer in the whole program for me. I need the program, obviously, but I don’t think my program is anything without a higher power, without praying, you know, in the morning and at night. I’m trying to learn new ways to pray because I just, you know, sometimes hit a block. So, you know, I’ve recently, over the last several months, tried to get a little more, you know, into the Bible. I’m doing a little bit more than just… because I always thought, you know, I’m like, “Yeah, I get enough out of meetings, you know, enough spirituality and religion to a degree in meetings.” But that’s just not enough. So I’ve tried to increase my depth in that, you know, so to speak.

My parents are super religious. You know, they’re very involved in their church and so my mom does counseling for couples, you know, all faith-based. So she’s given me a lot of help in that regard. You know, my dad… my dad and I are… you know, he shares Bible verses with me that catch him and, you know, sometimes I’ll share something back.

Jeff Johnson: That’s wonderful.

Jason Wilson: I haven’t got myself into a physical church too terribly much yet, but I’ve been watching, you know, Hope West Des Moines every Sunday morning. I don’t know, I keep telling you, I’m going to come to yours. I’m going to at some point.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So, anyway, that’ll be another act of courage.

Jason Wilson: Yeah. Parting the threshold of the door to walk into that church. There you go.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Well, Jason, I am just so proud of you. I want you to draw a line for listeners now. Back to… you said you started using when you were 10. Is that correlate with fifth grade or is that younger than fifth grade? You were using in… Beaverdale?

Jason Wilson: Beaverdale, excuse me. Yep. No. Um, so 12 is sixth grade. So it’d be about fourth grade.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

Jason Wilson: Yep. So, you started before the move.

Jeff Johnson: Yep. And the move was… I’m going to use a bigger word like “traumatic,” but, you know, you described it the way you described it—that that was a big shock to the system for you. So, I think we could all appreciate maybe that enhances, you know, trying to escape a little bit and drugs and alcohol are a great way to do that.

Jason Wilson: Yep.

Jeff Johnson: But this idea of courage—it took a lot of courage for you to finally come to the end of yourself and put the plug in the jug and say, “I’m not going to do this anymore.” Did that courage exist in that 10-year-old way back then? And this was just a maturing and pulling out of that?

Jason Wilson: Absolutely not. Um, I took my first drink in the Catholic church because I was experiencing some sexual abuse. So, which I’ve… no, I’ve shared with you before. Um, so that was my… that was my first, you know, solution to anything traumatic or icky. And so, um, that’s kind of what started it. And so, while it was relieving to leave that school district, to leave, you know, the Catholic school, to get away from that… you know, now I’m going to a new set of traumas, you know, that were, you know, getting built by, you know, other kids, you know, that were, you know, picking on me or bullying me, I guess if you will in this day and age.

But, um, yeah, I think that played a huge part into it. And it also, you know, unbeknownst to me, played a huge part into my, you know, drinking career. You know, I… you know, took counseling and therapy to, you know, realize that, you know, your drinking started because of this. You know, at first sight of any bit of incomfortableness for you, you know, that’s your solution. And so, um, and then, you know, fast forward, you know, I’ve removed booze from my life, you know, and bits and pieces here and there as I’m trying to… well, I didn’t realize it, you know, I’m suppressing a lot of feelings that I didn’t even think about, you know, with the trauma that I had at the church.

So a little bit of courage to have to go and talk about that over and over again with the therapist and get the kind of therapy that’s going to zap that out of your brain for good or at least take your mind to a happy place when it comes up. But so having to address that with a, you know, someone over and over and over again until it becomes a non-issue, you know, it takes a bit of courage to have to keep reliving those things, you know, from the age of 10 that I had really blocked out. For sure. I had no… I didn’t have any real like vivid memory of it until, you know, she started digging at it. And yeah, that was pretty challenging for sure.

Jeff Johnson: So this courage is not a… it’s not a dormant, latent trait that just gets sparked into existence when you get older. This is something new that you came to when you finally got to the end of yourself.

Jason Wilson: Correct.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Um, what is… what does it do to you when you have that very courageous act of putting the plug in the jug? Does it instill confidence? Does it make you more cautious? Does it slow you down? Does it speed you up?

Jason Wilson: I don’t know that I have a real feeling on that, you know. I think, you know, there’s a level of courage just to say, “I’m not doing this anymore,” right? But I don’t know that I give it a lot of thought like, “Boy, I’m…” I don’t know that I get proud of myself for it, you know, tunes me up or something like that. You know, when I think about it, yeah, it’s a courageous thing to just stop doing what we’re doing, you know, that’s ruining everything around you. But sometimes I’m kind of like, “You know, it didn’t have to get to that point.” But, you know, here we are.

And so, um, I do think it takes courage to try and forgive yourself every day for something that you did. And I try to do that. Even though I know God’s forgiven me, I still make it a point to try and say, “Hey, I’m still… I’m still sorry all these, you know, years later for what I did.” You know, but I think that takes courage to, you know, do that on a daily basis to keep reminding yourself, you know, you did these things, you don’t want to do them again.

Jeff Johnson: I ask a lot of people if they feel like courage is something just inherent or it’s something that can be transferred or taught or caught or whatever. Based on your story, you would absolutely say this is… you could find courage anytime anywhere.

Jason Wilson: I think you put your head to it and just said, “You know, this is not going to be part of my life.” Now, am I going to go jumping off a cliff tomorrow? No. That takes courage… you know, diving off a cliff. Right. But, um, you know, it’s… I think, you know, I had to learn that over time to say, “Okay, this is going to be uncomfortable. It’s going to be icky. It’s going to be all the things.” But I’ve got plenty of examples around me, you know, like yourself and all the other guys that we come in contact with on a daily basis that show that it works. Right? Yeah. There’s other people that do courageous things that, yeah, that might work for them, but there’s a chance it might not work for me. Um, but… right. You know, in this thing, there’s a bazillion, a bazillion examples of it working. And so that’s something, you know, when there’s facts and data, I can, I can, you know, tie my wagon to that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Oh, this is so good, Jason. I want to get… I want to get your final thoughts. I’ll let you go with this. Somebody is out there chewing off the ends of their fingers. And they don’t know whether they’re coming or going and they don’t know what to do, whether it’s drugs or alcohol or just emotional distress or whatever the “ism” might be. What do you say to them about finding courage and taking that next healthy step?

Jason Wilson: I think I would say the fact that we’re even just talking about it takes courage, right? So I would probably lead with that, you know—I admire your courage for even talking to me about this. Or, you know, bringing this up, that it’s an area of opportunity in your life. Like we like to say at work instead of saying, “You’re doing something wrong” or “You’re not good at this.”

Jeff Johnson: Right. Like, “Here’s an area of opportunity.”

Jason Wilson: That’s right. So I think anybody that, you know, just… you know, the fact that they say, “That’s an issue for me,” I think takes courage and they can learn it that way. But yeah, I would just, you know, look to other people. Ask for help because you and I both know that this isn’t a solo gig. There’s just no way to… if there was, I wouldn’t be sitting here right now. If I could’ve fixed this on my own, I wouldn’t be sitting here right now. I’d still…

Jeff Johnson: You definitely would have fixed it on your own.

Jason Wilson: Correct. Yes. I mean, it’s, you know, my pride, my ego, all would say… were telling me, that’s what kept me from it for so long. Yeah. But my pride and ego would still say if there’s a way to get around that, you know, to not have to deal with this stuff. And, you know, but yeah, I would just say to anybody that, you know, is out there, just… it takes courage to just admit it at first. But take that next step and find someone to help you. It may not be the first person you come across.

Jeff Johnson: Definitely isn’t.

Jason Wilson: And it’s not going to be the last person you’re going to come across either. You got to find something in there and just to keep driving at what it is you want until you get it. Because whether it’s, you know, substance abuse or like you said, what other “ism” it is, I don’t think your first experience, you know, should tell the whole story. You know, I’ve come across a lot of guys that meet people and they’re like, “Yeah, I can’t stand that person.” It’s like, okay, then don’t be around them. Yeah, don’t interact with them. I have to do that myself, you know, but…

Jeff Johnson: No, it’s a very good answer, Jason. Thank you for that. And the, the luxury that I have of knowing you and being around you in some of these circles—and a lot of these circles—is that I know how hard, how much energy you put into this thing. It’s kind of like your bodybuilding and your physique and all that kind of stuff. You know, you’re just… you’re dedicated to it and you put as much, if not more energy into this. And I see… I see a long list of people that have been blessed and that have been helped because of your efforts. So, keep it up. I got a lot of admiration for you.

Jason Wilson: Thank you. Yeah. Likewise. Thank you.

Jeff Johnson: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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