Eric Voelker on Courage, Reunion, and the Risk Worth Taking

In this follow-up conversation, Eric Voelker returns to the podcast for a candid, faith-forward check-in on what’s changed since his last appearance, reflecting on a season of waiting, family upheaval, and learning to release control so he can more clearly follow God’s lead; together, he and the host talk about hearing God through worship, the real-life courage it takes to pursue unity and reconciliation, and why repairing strained relationships is often the most “otherworldly” work we’ll ever do, with Eric sharing how reuniting a long-running men’s group became a personal turning point and a timely encouragement for the holiday season (listeners can refer back to Eric’s previous episode for the fuller backstory that set up this chapter).

Eric Voelker is an Iowa State wrestling national champion and Hall of Fame alumnus whose career has included leadership in ministry, education, and public service, and who currently serves as Operations Director at Des Moines Christian School, overseeing key areas like facilities, IT, food service, transportation, safety and security, and major campus projects; known for his directness, humility, and devotion to spiritual growth, Eric brings a grounded perspective on leadership, family, and the daily practice of living with courage and conviction.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out and courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Courageous Crossroads podcast. We have a repeat guest. We do that from time to time. Check back in with folks after a little bit of time has passed. It’s beautiful to say Eric Voelker is joining us for another installment of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. He’s not going to answer the question, what’s the most courageous thing he’s ever done? He’s handled that already, but he’s going to talk deeply about courage and where life in the Lord and all that kind of stuff has found him over the past six months. We last interviewed Eric in June of this year and we’re grateful to catch up with him again. So sit back and relax. You’re really going to love this second installment of my friend Eric Voelker. Eric, I got to catch up with you a little bit. Okay. We’ll tell you. Welcome to the podcast glad to have you back. Eric, this is your second time. I cannot wait and I’ve had a lot of people that have been asking to have you back on the program. So we’re grateful to have you here. I won’t keep you for too terribly long. How long do I have you today?

Eric Voelker: No more than three hours.

Jeff Johnson: We’ll try to keep it under that then. Oh my goodness. Okay. What are you doing over at Des Moines Christian?

Eric Voelker: I started working here in February as an operations director. So that entails it’s… It’s everything that’s not finance or academic. So I have a large team of people that run everything from facilities to IT to food services, transportation, safety and security, digital security.

Jeff Johnson: Oh my.

Eric Voelker: Yeah, it’s a lot. I’m going to have a special project. We’re building a new high school right now getting getting going on that building a new early ed building.

Jeff Johnson: So Eric, you’re busy.

Eric Voelker: It’s nonstop. I love it. I kind of looked at it as, you know, years ago, I took that call that job up at Hope Grimes to to build and lead the building of a church up there.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: And I kind of viewed that as like a little mini ark building assignment from God. And this I view as—I’m here to help the people of Des Moines Christian build another ark for children.

Jeff Johnson: So well, they’re lucky to have you. We had you on this program in June.

Eric Voelker: Yeah, I think.

Jeff Johnson: So we had heard about starting with the job, but haven’t seen it, you know, continue to blossom and grow and sounds like it’s gone a lot deeper. I don’t remember you having that many tentacles of what it was that you were doing back in June.

Eric Voelker: I just think I was so new to it. There’s a lot to learn in the new, you know, I’ve done these types of things before, but there’s a lot to learn about the culture of development here or any organization when you’re new. It just takes a while and, you know, probably the latter part of the summer into the fall. I just was getting more up to speed and kind of getting ready to roll.

Jeff Johnson: So the last time we talked, you were talking about being in a season of waiting and listening to God guide and direct you. And like I said, that was—for people that haven’t heard that first episode, they need to go back and listen to it because it was very inspirational and very… Yeah, transparent and cathartic and helpful for a lot of people, but. Do you feel a few months down the road now? Do you feel more guided by the Lord that you said yes to the right thing? And I mean, I don’t mean it like that, but you know what I’m saying.

Eric Voelker: You know exactly what you mean. The answer is yes. You know, the other day when you guys reached out to come on the podcast, I’m like, well, I wonder what we’re going to talk about. I’m like, what should I, you know, as always, what should I prepare and what do I want to present? All those things. Last night I was looking just through some notes. I take notes on the app note on my phone a lot, just thoughts. It’s in a sense, it’s my journal. I’m just looking through things and I thought, well, maybe I’ll share it in this way, because I think this whole kind of gets to that question.

The leaving of a job as a pastor in a way that I didn’t know what I was up to or what God was up to in my life—I think that’s the answer. The answer is yes. The onset of a deeper reality of an adult kid with mental health challenges. Deep change in our family structure with the kids—her grand-kids coming to live now with us. Some really deep turning of my life and I could not figure out how to grab a hold of it and straighten it out. So by will or by submission, I think I was forced into a waiting or a desert. And I did. I mean, I waited somewhat by my own heart’s desire, some I think God telling me you’re going to be on the bench for a minute here.

Deep struggle, long struggle. Probably the deepest one of my life. And I do think I relaxed in that period of time trusting him and letting go and asking him where we’re headed in like a very open way—not so much, “Here’s where I want to go. Can you help me get there?” So I said yes to him and the deeper realities of moving forward with a family with great needs now. I don’t know that I didn’t have an offered option to say yes, but better than that, I got to say yes. Without any reservation, absolutely the right choice.

You know, these are the realities of… you know, it’s one thing to win a national championship—I was state in wrestling almost 40 years ago—and think that you know, with God, all things are possible, right? But I will tell you it’s a different reality saying that about whether it’s me or anybody, these things that really do matter: things with our family or in ourselves, our faith life. And so our family is definitely all saying a continuing better place. I don’t know. I’m trying not to think about there’s a “solution,” you know, you get here and now you’re done with it. I think the solution is just realizing that he’s with us. And when he’s with us, the circumstance of the day, no matter how hard or how great, they’re doable.

As far as job and career, God’s let me do just about anything I ever set my sights on in my life, and starting with I think really becoming a pastor at Hope a few years back. It’s the first time I asked him what he wanted me to do and said it like, “Can I do this?” And he’s like, “Yeah, go ahead. I’ll be right here when you get back.” And the Hope job taught me to set my life down. Even I—we could be successful at a lot of different things. He’s given us gifts that work, and we apply them anywhere and they work great. They create good lives. But I think what he really wanted was what he waited three careers for me to really say: “Okay, thanks for letting me do that. But I think I’m not getting out of it what you’ve got for me. What do you want? What do you want me to do?”

And then all the doors open again. And I think that happened in our family life. I’ve got a little bit of a smile. The burden is a little lighter today. And it might be heavier tomorrow. I think that’s the way this kind of works in these realities of coming close and walking closely with people with deeper or everyday needs.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, go ahead. Let me ask you a question. Do you look at your life like compartmentalized? Because you know, you hear people say sometimes like “this is a second act for me” or “this is a third act for me.” You know, one of my favorite movies is that old Dustin Hoffman film Little Big Man where he goes through like these phases where he’s a drunkard and then he gets abducted by Indians. And so it becomes an Indian guy. And then he becomes a sheriff. And you know, anyway, he goes through all these different phases. It’s really interesting. But I always, you know, hear people talking about going through phases of life. Do you look at it like, man, in my 20s I had some battles, I was very courageous, did well during there; my 30s I could have done a little bit better; my 40s—what a challenge that was, like a low spot; and here I am in my 50s. Do you look at it like that or is it just one continuous narrative where you’re just learning along the way and following?

Eric Voelker: Maybe it’s a little bit of both, but I think for a long time, I—maybe only now in this stage—do I look at it as a compartmentalization like that? And maybe until you have these compartments, you don’t really see it. You don’t see it yet. But I will say more now in this part of my life, the retrospect allows a lot more of that in the appreciation of, you know, just one example: we go places and we’ll see people having a baby or you know, they’re getting married. You have kids in this stage getting married when they’re 23 and we look at them—Michelle and I look at each other—and we’re like, “We are old. These are like children.” Like even young adults, it’s such a young innocent beginning stage of life on their own.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: And you realize like looking back how you want these kids, these young adults to think they know everything. That’s the right thing you want to be thinking that when you’re 23 or 20. It’s where you draw courage and all that. But when we look back at it now, it’s like, no, I didn’t know anything about anything. And we got in there and you know, had a great young life.

But I resist heavily—and it might be just that fear of getting older—I really resist that idea of “I’m in my fourth quarter” because I’m not really ready to be done. And at the same time there is some wisdom around that. Like, you know, as Paul said, you know, when I was a child, I thought as a child, but at this point, I kind of put that type of thinking aside. There’s a responsibility of people who are in the third, fourth, fifth quarter of life to really embrace the wisdom of life and continue to share that with the world around them.

And even in your own life, I think it’s good to recognize… you know, I—this is that’s my front yard, Jeff, in the background there. It was this summer we had the double rainbow and it turned—I’ve never saw anything like that before. It was like this bubble. It was like a dome bubble over over us. And that that’s not… I have one I enhanced and it’s all bright, but I like to have this one because it reminds me I didn’t do one thing to create that.

Jeff Johnson: For listeners, it’s just this beautiful green and it’s got a beautiful driveway that’s just wiggling its way out to the road quite long. And you can see that there’s a lot of moisture on the driveway and there’s a beautiful rainbow where you caught both ends of it just arcing on your front yard. That’s your backdrop. That’s beautiful.

Eric Voelker: It’s a reminder to me of my whole life. Well, it’s God’s reminder that he puts this thing, he puts this beauty in my life, whether I’m prepared for it, not prepared for it, whether I stay inside and don’t come out and look at it or don’t look at it. It was there and I just happened to be walking across the living room area and I’m like, “What? Oh, that’s cool.” And I went out there and it just enveloped my life. And then all the neighbors are outside and it’s like when I think when we see stuff like this that moves us to know that God is with us, it’s like it just puts us in a place that quiets the highs and the lows.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I want to ask you what’s the most courageous thing you’ve done since June 11th since we talked to you last. Maybe I’ll ask you that. But the question I want to ask you first is, where have you heard the Lord the most clearly since June 11th? Eric.

Eric Voelker: I listened to a lot of music. And… it gets back into where have I been in the past couple of years? It’s continued to come to a closure, a new beginning. I told you a couple years ago and maybe a couple of other times that I had this dream, probably 10 years ago now. And I didn’t know who to tell and I told you, Megan, and maybe my wife and a couple of other people because it’s a dream that like you know is going to come about. You’re scared to death of it because you can’t lay one finger on how it’s going to come about or when or what, but that’s a little unnerving to me.

And God told me that he’s going to turn me into love itself. Which is not a surprise. “I want you to love like I love. I want you to be one with each other like I and the father are one.” It’s that type of thought—it’s all over in scripture that that’s when he’s sanctifying us to become like him. And which I’m for that, but I’m also… you know, that’s that CS Lewis thing. I don’t mind going to the dentist as long as he can leave the bad tooth in there because I don’t want to get it pulled out. Right. I want a little bit of “me” left on the other side of the river crossing, you know, and yet we pray for being made new.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: So I guess I’ll get more to it. And it will cross into your next question of courage. I left the church and I was… I will say I was disgruntled at heart, pointing the finger at a few. As I got farther from it, of course, I realized that it’s irrelevant. The move was to go to God and know that he’s with me and that these things do not define me and cannot control my day today and tomorrow or yesterday. Don’t do that. He can cover everything. Let it go.

And so it took me about a year, really, to get to let go of a lot of that frustration and fear of what comes next. And I figured out that through a conversation with friends and trusted counsel that I wasn’t worried about how the job worked out—was it this one in the details of it. What I was struggling with was being able to control it. And it separated me from some friends that I’ve had for decades of time. And I think I’m going to share this because especially in this holiday season, there are families that are separate from each other. And sometimes the reasons are thick and deep and really matter, and sometimes they’re thin and transparent and don’t matter—and then everything in between. And sometimes it’s been a week and sometimes it’s been 40 years. And none of it is worth it.

And we’ll find this out really and its fullness only on the other side of the leap of faith. So take a chance and jump, make the jump. It won’t feel right. It’ll feel like it’s going to cost you everything—and it will. But it’ll cost you all the things you want to give up anyway. It won’t cost you anything that you want because God is what you want and he will be there.

So what we… I was in a men’s group—half these guys from 15, 20, some of them for almost 30 years. I got derailed no doubt by nothing less than Satan himself. Disillusioned, confused from him. I believe that he’s on the prowl to kill me, to devour my life and to chew me up and spit me out, separate me from people that love me and that I love from the love of God. And it did for almost two years.

And then one of my friends that kind of hung loose with me through that time’s like, “Hey, should we get the band back together?” And I’m like, “Yeah, let’s do it.” So we start circulating the text among seven of us. It took a while to stir the water. The whole group disassembled when I kind of took a break.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. Costly.

Jeff Johnson: Well, costly… to my life and theirs, to our families and friends and our workplaces, all the extensions of what we do in and for each other’s lives. So, you know, we’ve made a plan. It got delayed, it got delayed, got delayed. Since we’ve met, our group has been back together weekly on Wednesdays around noon. Almost every week.

Jeff Johnson: And when did you start that back up again?

Eric Voelker: It’s August.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Eric Voelker: And all of us around are under no illusion that it’s going to take a minute to, you know, to re-up, to get going again. But after about three or four times there, I drove away and I was coming back to work and I pulled over and I texted those guys and I said something like, “You know, it’s refreshing. It’s refreshing to know that God kept this soil rich and deep. And I can feel my roots going right back down in.” And of course, everybody’s like, “Amen, brother” and whatever. But, you know, it’s… I and then for about a week, I was just like derailed by that reality that God kept that thing intact with patience, faithfulness and commitment with his life.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: “I’ll be here when you guys get back.”

Jeff Johnson: And the catalyst for the thing to disassemble was your Exodus.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. And then it just stayed dormant and then it cracked together again.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I think there’s—are all the other guys having the same reaction to it that you’re having?

Eric Voelker: Yeah, yeah, yeah… [Audio clarifies] Yeah, it isn’t all that transparent. It’s just being impervious and it doesn’t happen with anything else. It’s just knowing, being a governor, plugging in… maybe that was the material that one is like a vagabond, like it’s a sewage and something else which is monotonous.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Voelker: I really shiv—who we don’t really place a pull Nederlanders, please tell again, the presentation I’ll just mention is a rolled-out ring band with, but something about a hand, all right.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. The last one, home tuning. Yeah. Oh.

Eric Voelker: Alright. Let me show you guys the 3rd right now. Just past the children’s… so we’re about ten years away from a good one. I’m gonna finish up when I’m done with your office in there into this. That cost me two years of my life with friendship with people. And this is after, you know, 10, 15, 20, 25 years with these guys. Arguably the deepest riches, two years of all of them are at that point, you know, later.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: And I went over there and pouted for a few minutes, disillusioned, pointing the fingers. And it got me nothing. No benefit from the pity party. It’s so… it’s such a devil’s trick to think that you’re going to get something and hold something down on somebody, pin somebody else down and somehow you’re going to…

Jeff Johnson: I went through this list of—it’s a heady topic. And I can say this really quick because I don’t mean to interrupt, I wanted to keep going, but you reminded me of it. It’s in this prayer book called Heart Searching for Spiritual Warfare. And it’s this idea you need to ask yourself all these difficult questions so that you can clean up your side of the street. And there’s 101 questions there. There’s a lot of questions like: “Is there anybody I don’t love?” And there’s scripture verses on the top of it to point you to the scripture where it says you need to love everybody and stuff like that. “Do I—am I happy when somebody else fails?” you know, stuff like that, or “Have I stolen time from God?” You know, that kind of thing.

Well, one of the questions that hits me the most over and over—I go back through this for annual house cleaning, you know—and the one that hits me all the time is, “Am I easily offended?” Eric, I can be. I mean, forgive me Lord, but I am—and he does—but I’m easily offended so much of the time. And I go back to the scriptures that point to pride.

Eric Voelker: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And so I got to check my pride because I’m easily offended by everybody given the day. And I totally agree with what you’re saying. It’s such a devil’s trick. “Oh, yeah. Oh, you have been wronged, Jeff. So go and be wronged and be mad about that.” And what a waste. All that’s doing is just the clock’s ticking. It’s just wasting time, you know, puts me on the bench.

Eric Voelker: I—you say that and I’ve got some lyrics up here. I want to just touch base through a couple of them because I think like from my life and the stuff you exactly just said, being offended, devil’s tricks… this Lauren Daigle, I mean, oh my goodness. People think that God doesn’t speak today. They’re not listening to some of these people that he’s fired up with the realities of a heart after God, you know. My screen just ticked off here. Okay. So she has this song. It’s about identity and it’s called “You Say.” And it’s about what God says about us.

And I won’t tell the “dad story” here today—I will someday because I’ve got it ironed out and it’s good and it’s long about my dad’s death. And he gave me a little nugget at the end. His last word to me. I was looking for like some instructions, not an identity statement. I wanted a little more something to achieve, you know, and he wouldn’t give it to me because he knew that it’s not what I needed. And this is, I think this is for everybody.

She says, “I keep fighting voices in my head that say I’m not enough. Every single lie that tells me I’ll never measure up.” I think these are things so embedded in our lives of achievement—even to the best of what we do with achievement. These are God-given gifts to have these drives to achieve and grow and develop and do. But there’s what we’ve been talking about, these little Satan tricks that are like… you get the gold medal—whatever your gold medal is: can of pop, new raise at work, standing on the victory, whatever it is. And while you’re up there with your hand raised or your heart happy or your mind overloading on all the good stuff that a mind does, there’s a little whisper in there. It says like, “You know, there’s more.”

There’s more, and it has this long effect on us of making us think that if we’re not producing, we are not worth anything. “Every single lie that tells me I’ll never measure up. Am I just more than just the sum of every high and every low? Is that what I am?” That’s what I was waiting for my dad’s last words. And we go higher. You know, we want to look at a low and like clean something up, you want to go higher—what do you want me to do? I said I wasn’t going to tell that story, but I’m waiting on that for a month. You remind me, Daigle says, “Remind me once again just who I am because I need to know.” And it goes on… but we won’t go this long.

I wanted him to tell me that stuff. And then she flips it in her lyric to say, “Here’s what I’ll tell you: You’re loved even when you can’t feel it. You say I’m strong, when I think I’m weak, when I don’t belong, you say I’m yours and I believe, I do believe it. What you say of me, I believe.” And it’s—wow. Wow. And she finishes up: “The only thing that matters now is everything that you think of me. In you, I find my worth, I find my identity.” That’s why I went back to the group.

Jeff Johnson: That’s it.

Eric Voelker: Because every reason above that is a reason not to go back.

Jeff Johnson: Man, thank you, Eric. That’s the question. The question I asked you was since June 11th, how have you heard God the most? And what? Wow. That’s exactly it.

Eric Voelker: I want to, Jeff—I think God gives me this to share today because you call it the Christmas season and I’m like, “Ah, maybe Christmas won’t work. We’ll go next week.” But I’m like, there’s a time that’s happening right here where this holiday thing stirs our hearts to deep joy, deep pain and sometimes at the same time. And it’s like, what a great time to receive a piece of encouragement to take the risk to reach out.

Jeff Johnson: Amen. Reach out. It might not work, but there’s no risk in doing it.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. Wow. We don’t have to be too cute about getting back to this topic of courage. I mean, this is the Courageous Crossroads. So this is what we’re talking about.

Jeff Johnson: And hey, Jeff, the courage… I don’t think we have to convince anybody who’s in a broken relationship that longs for reunion. If you’re in that place, the reason you’re in it is likely because you need some courage.

Eric Voelker: It keeps going. This is it. I mean, I think the longest set of prayer that we have in the gospel of John is Jesus thanking his father for the unity between themselves, the Godhead. And then he’s going to launch that on his best friends. He’s going to ask God to do the same thing for them with each other and with he and the father. And then he’s going to take it to the whole world. And if he’s praying… I think we get three, four paragraphs on that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: And I don’t get that length of his unfolding of his inner life at that volume in one setting, I think ever in the gospels. It’s the longest stretch of him like quoted in prayer. And he’s not waggling his finger at disciples that are standing in front of him. He’s petitioning his father in heaven to please open their eyes. Let him see.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Wow.

Eric Voelker: Because the payoff is otherworldly. It’s where we, you know, we cry when we’re hurt, but we cry also when we get in this place of like awe and otherworldly of God’s presence. And all you have to do is have ever had a relationship get hard stressed and come to the reunion to even get a glimpse of, I think, what he’s talking about in there. Because the reunion is, I think at the heart of why we don’t want to reach out with courage and say—whether it’s “I’m sorry” or “I love you” or “I want to, hey, can we get back together? Can we get a coffee? When do you come over? You want to get a dinner?” The extension of friendship, of love is easy to do. The thing I think that keeps us from it is fear that we might be rejected in it.

Jeff Johnson: That’s it. Well, maybe two things. One is we’re going to lose something. We’re not going to get something that we desperately want that we think is so important.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a… “I might be offended.” Who? Who gets a grip? You were already offended. I mean, you’re already alone. What do you want to be? The Israelites wanting to go back to Egypt and to slavery? Really?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: Can you come to the promised land? Take another step. I’m with you. I mean, we already have the fullness of the promise that he’s with us.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. He’s the leader of that reunion anyway. There’s no risk. But the first thing I go to, the first thing I think is—again, not to make this about me, Eric—easily offended. Well, I just think I’m a doormat. Well, people shouldn’t treat me like that. You know, they shouldn’t be sticking their heels into me and whatever and this and that and the other. When the reality is, is I’m the image bearer of the living God. I’m radioactive in every room that I walk into. All I have to do is say yes to him. There’s the opportunity. It’s to completely change any circumstance that I’m involved in. The only cost is that it starts with me, which is not a cost at all. It’s an opportunity.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. Well, it’s not a cost. It’s actually the freedom that God sets us free for. We think it’s a little, you know, yeah. And it’s so not. “I have set you free. You don’t have to think that.” It’s like those heart changes and that, you know, “be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” That’s that—capturing that when those things happen in our lives, which is like the opportunity exists about every four or five minutes. And sometimes they’re really small, tiny, almost nothing things, but they are almost nothing. But usually it’s a million stitches that makes a suit. It’s one stitch at a time.

And little offenses become bigger offenses and it’s a pattern… it’s their patterns, you know. “Be transformed by the renewing of the patterns of your life, of your mind, of the way you’ve done things, of the way you’ve thought. Let me change the whole thing. I want to make you new.” And it got most of the time on those offenses, Jeff. It’s like we think, you know, we go right to: “I got major offenses on this list, middle of the road over here and really big ones over here.” And I think most of the time God’s saying, “Let’s just start with one of these easy ones.” Like should we get Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi? “I only want Diet Coke. I don’t like Diet Pepsi.” And here we go. Or you name it.

Jeff Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Eric Voelker: “I don’t want to go to that church. I want to go to this one.” Oh, really? Right. Okay, maybe that’s on the middle list. But maybe the rest… you know, I don’t know if we’re ever going to maybe make that phone call. But I think it can come off any of the happiness of the lists. The human material, the human material.

Jeff Johnson: Remember that joke about the guy that’s lost on the deserted island and he ship-wrecked? The people come to rescue him and he’s got three buildings on the island. They’re like, “What’s that first building?” He’s like, “That’s my house. That’s where I live.” He’s like, “What’s that second building?” And he’s the only one on the island. He says, “That’s the church I go to.” And he said, “What’s the third building?” He said, “That’s the church I used to go to.” You know what I mean?

Eric Voelker: This is the human material. We’re so… a lot of them out. I love that. But you can substitute “church” on there for “these are the friends I used to hang out with.”

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Eric Voelker: “This is the workplace.” You know, I’ve jumped jobs 15 times in my life. “Why don’t I feel like I have any friends?” And you start pointing the finger at them and it’s like, well, maybe you ought to put some roots down in a place—and not just in a place, but in people’s lives. Otherwise, you know, that joke is funny, Jeff. So true. It is so true. Here I am on two other examples of it instantly. It’s right. I mean, come on.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So you’ve had quite an experience with the Lord, Eric. And that’s one of the reasons why I love you so much and I want to stay close to you is because you know… I’m speaking to the listeners out there now. If anybody doesn’t have people in their life that are actively engaged in pursuing the things of the Lord, you’re just missing an opportunity. I think it was GK Chesterton that said, “Pick the best friends that you possibly can and then follow them only as far as they follow the Lord.”

Eric Voelker: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And I think that that’s a good thing. So, but I see that in you, Eric. And it’s such a real-world ongoing example to encourage me and my faith. So that’s—I get that. That’s what you’re experiencing right now. Is the Lord answering prayers in the midst of the challenges.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. And I’m under no illusion. I think I’ve actually had some enlightenment revelation around, well, what if you don’t agree with those friends? Hence the two churches or every cause of the division.

Jeff Johnson: What about the division?

Eric Voelker: Yeah, what about it? I—what I’ve been watching The Chosen with with my grandsons.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: And just watching Jesus’ interaction with these disciples. Pretty—it’s pretty… I know they tell stories on that show as well, but they extend the stretch and stuff. This is fine. But these disciples, they didn’t agree with them on everything. They didn’t know what he was talking about. It was tough and it was rough. And yet they were together. And it’s like, we could take some lessons on just: How do we stay together when we don’t agree about a couple of things?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I mean, otherwise, what is family then?

Eric Voelker: Yeah. How do we let these things separate us?

Jeff Johnson: You’re absolutely right, Eric. I would love to go have supper with those guys sometime after Jesus had just given a little sermon or they’d seen him do a thing and straighten out a crooked hand or whatever. And then those guys are sitting down going, “Yeah, but how can this be?” or “I don’t think that’s right. That guy’s a jerk. You know, he shouldn’t have healed him” or “these people were running their mouth.” I would have loved to have heard that. And then to see step back and see them still be a cohesive group. Yeah. I, you know, at the end when he’s in the garden and he prays to the Father, if there’s any way that these idiots can save themselves, can we go with that without… I’ve shown them everything. They’ve seen me so I know they’ve seen you. I’ve shown them the whole thing. I am the fullness of you. Okay. I spent three years with them. I showed them how to fight evil, pray, fast, fend off the devil, cast out demons, heal people. I’ve given them everything. I’ve raised people from the dead repeatedly in their… how can after that, after that, why can these people not believe? And just, you know, and Dad says, yeah, they’re, you know, they’re just not going to, it’s just how they do it. It’s the human material. Oh my goodness. Yeah. They’re right. Didn’t it say the last bit of that, the last bit of John or Matthew in the Great Commission that, you know, when he was taken up to heaven, there was still some that didn’t—still some that doubted. Yeah. I mean, what do you—what do you need? Right. At that, on that road to Emmaus at the end, he’s walking with the guys and, and I just imagine he’s saying to the disciples with them, “Can you guys believe that?” And they’re like, “Believe what?” And then I think the scripture says something like, and so he started again from the beginning. Okay. Right. Let’s take it from the top. See if you can put this together. Oh, I love it. This is what we’re… we’re deviate just a little bit, Eric, but this is why the Bible is so fascinating. It is the most amazing story. If you wanted to make up a religion and you wanted to make up a God and you wanted to do other, you would not have done it this way and you would not have had these stories and put these knuckleheads in it. You would not have done any of that. You would have written it in a completely different way. Yeah. Makes me believe that it’s true all the more. Can I, can I… I don’t—I don’t want to keep you too much longer, but I want to talk about the topic of courage and the topic of unity of the body because I think you’ve got a lot to teach. And I want to ask you about a social media post that you made about a football coach.

Eric Voelker: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And I ask you about that. Love it. First thing I want to say is, I’m an Iowa Hawkeye. Go Hawks.

Eric Voelker: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And of course, Eric is a national champ with Iowa State University wrestling champ years ago. And, um, I remember a time when my beloved Hawkeyes were winning the Interstate Sports events. And that’s just gone by the wayside. I watched that wrestling tournament with my head in my hands and I was like, here we go. I mean, we’ve beat Iowa State for so many years. And you guys just did a phenomenal job. And then of course, the football team bested us earlier this year. And I—the next one up was the women’s basketball team. And you guys were ranked 10th and we’re ranked 11th. And I thought, here we go. We’re going to—we’re just going to take care of some business here. And that didn’t happen. Goodness gracious. What a game that was. And then there was of course, zero hope for the men’s basketball team to beat the Iowa State men’s basketball team. So that happened. So I’m walking around going, wait till women’s field hockey season because we’ll show you. And but I don’t know that that’s even going to happen. So anyway, I’m living in a world where Iowa State is completely crushed all of my Hawkeye hopes as it should be. I mean, it ebbs and flows, but we love our state teams.

But your football coach, Matt Campbell took another job, which is wonderful. And congratulations to him. As careers go, you advance and you move on and whatever. I think Penn State’s—Iowa State’s become a feeder for Penn State coaching and stuff. But there was a new coach announced for Iowa State. And he was—I don’t want to go into any of the weeds about this, but it was a little bit infamous because he had a little flim-flammy flimmy showtime cinematics kind of commentary there. When he was talking to the crowd and people, there were some people that were pumping their fists, rah-rah, that kind of language really incites people and fires them up—and other people that said we could do better. And your voice was a strong one. And I’ve noticed that as a courageous thing. And I don’t think you’re lambasting an individual. You’re speaking truth and love, which is very much a godly thing. I mean, I don’t want to give you the answer to your own question. But I think that’s a beautiful picture of courage. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Eric Voelker: Yeah. I think I did not necessarily, like—I didn’t have to like buck up to put that post up there. It’s, you know, foul language is used out on a place that I dedicated a fair amount of my life to over five years of performing on that floor at Hilton Coliseum. And since then, I’ve been a coach at Iowa State. I’ve been a lifetime alumni. I’m in the Iowa State Hall of Fame. Not—I’m not blowing a horn. What I’m—what I’m getting at is this place matters to me. What they do matters to me. Because I think they give a chance for young people to discover their life and explore education and athletics and that sort of thing. And we have a lot of fun at it. And we hope to go get season tickets again and go again and again.

But there is a place both professionally and publicly. And when you combine those two things as a public leader then, there are some expectations and limits in my view around using foul language or inappropriate language. We already know that. We wouldn’t use racially inciting language.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: You know, that would have a different kind of a… it wouldn’t just be me.

Jeff Johnson: That’s right.

Eric Voelker: Right. A lot more people. So evidently that norm of society is still—it still has enough power to keep a lid on that. Evidently, we must be in a place as a culture and a society and as a community of Cyclones and athletics and NCAA and all that, that we’re kind of halfway kind of okay maybe with launching the F-bomb out up front in public—not in silent like mouth on the sideline, locker room, but now out just coming a little more forward. Erosion of a social norm that is meant to be more. We’ve got… it’s not that foul language is not good for children, it’s not good for anybody.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Eric Voelker: Sin entered the world… there’s no foul mouth pre-fall.

Jeff Johnson: Right. None. Zero.

Eric Voelker: And that’s actually what we’re headed back to in redemption. So why not with the revelation of God with us now in Christ? Why not aspire to live in the way that God has prescribed? And offered with freedom. Well anyway, so I posted something just… I thought it was a “yeah, no doubt, Voelker.” But that’s what I thought the responses might be. I said to launching the F-bomb in the middle of a rah-rah thing out in public where there’s ages of all people in that room, public forum, your first time in what you want to present to the new job that you have… and you launch the F-bomb.

I worked on the Des Moines Fire Department for 10 years. I was in athletics and college athletics. I was in teaching in school. I’m in life. People use this word all the time everywhere. So rightfully so I get—I already know this. Down in the post, I’m like, “it’s part of the norm of today.” And from a long-time Cyclone friend of mine, he says something like, “Why does it matter?” on the post. And I’m like… I looked at that and I’m like, I don’t want a confrontation. But at the same time when you’re saying it doesn’t, or like, you know, he said, “Who cares?” That was the—it was a two-word answer. From somebody I have a high respect for. Like the whole time I’ve ever been at Iowa State as a young athlete. And just below I answered with two words and I said, “I do.”

I do. Because I think in the end it’s… you know, what moral standard in this and that? In the end it’s going to come down to like a face-to-face probably you and me, my own sharpening iron, people in relationships that come to these social agreements of like, well, you know, Paul saying, “I can do whatever I want to do. But I’m going to lay down some things. I’m going to become all things to all people. I will give up my life and some of the things I think are normed or shouldn’t be normed.” I want my way as your way or customs… I’ll lay all these things down so that I can reach you with the things that matter. And it’s like, that’s kind of what I thought. No, I wasn’t like, “I’m going to do something here.” I think Paul would say, “No.” But I think I have been shaped like that. “Hey, that’s too much.” That’s all I was saying.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: “Who do you think you are judging people?” There’s no judgment in this. That’s too much.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I think Tozer said, “Art like morality consists of drawing the line somewhere.” So I mean, you have to—there is a line. To your point, you know, you wouldn’t—the racially salacious stuff, you surely would stay away from that. So where is—where is that line? You’re saying as a Christian and as a Cyclone, you know, we’re moving the line. And I think it’s too far. I think we need to tuck it back.

Eric Voelker: If people were on me about not saying these things about the politics of the day, and I’m like, yeah, if I had some level of platform or relationship that mattered in that league, I’d probably say something. But the platform and the history and the engagement of the relationships that God’s given me are like in this little area, Central Iowa, and maybe upwards a little bit to the Cyclone nation. See now, why—why don’t I get to be me there?

Jeff Johnson: Right, right. This is—this is an area of influence that you have.

Eric Voelker: That’s right.

Jeff Johnson: Stephen Covey has these… oh gosh, this is great. Eric, you’re reminding me this. Stephen Covey has this—these two bubbles. This big giant bubble, the bigger one is your area of concern. We’re concerned about the world. We’re concerned about our state. We’re concerned about everything. And the little bubble that’s inside of it is your area of influence. And he says, if you focus on your area of influence and do that with excellence, it will expand into your area of concern. You don’t jump outside of it in your area of concern.

So, you know, some people, God gives them a voice over time where they can speak into much bigger issues. But here’s the—here’s the lesson that I want to learn from you because I—I’ve been guilty of F-bombs and a little salacious language. The Lord’s still working on me with that kind of stuff too. And I’m not making an excuse about it. But it was a… I read your post and I was like, you know, Eric is right. And I had to have a check in my spirit about that kind of stuff. So I’m—I’m grateful for you to put it out there. And I did think it was a courageous thing.

But I want you to marry that up with the unity that Jesus was praying for inside of the body of Christ with that comment that you made. Because I think what we’re dealing with in society now is people thinking that those two things can’t coexist. And they like—like I’ve admitted about myself, I get so easily offended. And then I’m just mad. And no, we can speak truth to each other. And I saw you doing that with still love in the bond. You know what I mean? So speak to that if you would.

Eric Voelker: Reading. I’m for the… I’m for Jimmy Rogers. I’m going to buy tickets. I’m going to go watch that. That I also think sometimes maybe I shouldn’t, you know, maybe I have too many friends on Facebook because I’m saying things in the Bible says like with Christianity… Paul saying, “to all of you who know this stuff, makes total sense. To people who don’t believe this, it’s foolishness.”

I think that I also don’t think it’s always like as high as the F-bomb and whether you use it or not is not like you don’t believe in Christ. That is a ridiculous finger pointing. That is a—that to me is getting to the level of a judgment. Not just, “Hey, you can’t do that.” That’s getting to the heart of like saying that like if you use the F-bomb… you know what, Jeff, you know why I don’t swear?

Jeff Johnson: Why?

Eric Voelker: Because my dad didn’t. That if Barry or Tom or I—and I’m saying if, I’m talking about like three times maximum.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Eric Voelker: If we ever said anything and I’m talking… you know how like this—this is so dumb—like the throwaway swearing then there’s like the middle ground and then there’s like the heavy words.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Eric Voelker: If we said light level swearing, we would get my dad’s hand across our head. Zero. I mean none. I think the only time I ever heard him swear—and he would argue it’s not swearing and he did because we called him on it—if he ever said something and it may have been like three times in my whole life. If he ever said like “if hell froze over” or “come hell or high water.” Not really using the word hell. I don’t even know if that’s a swear word. It’s a location or a reference.

Anyway, that’s the extent of what he did and he didn’t permit it and he did more than he didn’t permit it—he never did it. So we were so encultured in that that even going into, you know, heavy college athletics where that’s in there a lot, we didn’t… I never… no. My brothers still don’t. We don’t really pick that up today. So I also am like: Why do people use this and swear? Because they’ve been around it a lot. And it might be a nothing to them. Right? It really might be. It might be like saying “Sprite can.” Ah, Sprite can. Right. It’s a nothing but you’re using something that God has in a sense… oh, in a very clear way said. What you say, what you think, what your heart meditates on matters.

Jeff Johnson: That’s important. It matters.

Eric Voelker: God says, “I’ve made you for more than that.” “Well, it’s not that big a deal to my life.” Then God’s talking about having a life that we could not yet know, ask for or imagine. He’s talking about being made new. “Well, how would you win on the sideline if you can’t like say the F-bomb?” and like… it’s like, what’s that got to do with winning?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: It’s just that it’s an inculturation is all it is of how we think we use language. And it’s not everything, but it is something. So I think to the courage and the unity, it’s… when there was a couple guys on there and one was a Des Moines Fireman that I worked with way back when and he was giving it to me. And then in the end, I’m like, “Come on. I know you would agree with me.”

But I think we… there’s some people on there that have a little bit of a, I’ll say, they’ve been on me for a while on social media.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Negative.

Eric Voelker: Right. Somehow thinking that that’s going to change my mind. It’s not helping. But I try to keep the conversation going. I’m friends with a buddy of mine, 40 years of my life, and I would call him more on the liberal end of things and I’m more on the conservative end of not just like politics, but like all things.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: He’s my best friend. Why? It’s because somehow God’s given us the ability to walk with each other, leave the things alone or walk softly enough in the things that don’t matter, you know, that nothing is worth… maybe. I don’t know. I think very few things are worth division.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: But we just can’t… “You’re judging people.” I’m not sure we know—we’ll have a common view of what judging is then.

Jeff Johnson: Well, what does the Bible say? It says that if you turn somebody away from their sin… I mean, this is a fantastic thing. Well, I can’t imagine me turning somebody away from their sin that’s so obvious is going to be received with, “Oh gosh, golly, thanks.” You know, Proverbs 27:17 says, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” And if you think about sharpening metal, that’s heat and friction and time. It’s not, you know, just lovely, but it is elevated as a very, very, very good thing. And Eric, I’m just not that much like Christ yet that I’m making all good decisions. And I need people like you to come put their arm around me and say—you know, in private—and say, “You know, Jeff, you need to button it up a little bit.”

Eric Voelker: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And people will be like, “Oh, you think you’re holier than thou.” I’m like, no, I just…

Eric Voelker: I got one for you. I just took two years off of deep friendships and get my butt in the finger for two years. I mean, I know we’re all in the pool of sin.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Eric Voelker: I’m under no illusion. I’ve got a whole bunch of things I’m offended with. My list is the same as anybody else’s.

Jeff Johnson: Well, I recognized a courageous act. And I wanted to call you out on it because it was a blessing to me. And I’m sure it’s a blessing to the new head football coach as well. To have somebody care enough to say, “I don’t think that was—I don’t think that was perfectly placed,” you know.

Eric Voelker: Yeah. Why wouldn’t that be for somebody who was shaped and formed by that community, for somebody who worked in that community, for somebody who has been—how old was I? 19, so 59—40 years heavily involved in athletics. Two of my kids went there. Heavily involved. I love it. We love it. We’re promoters.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: I sure would hope that they would think that I should have something to say. I hope Dan Gable has something to say about wrestling when things are maybe not as good as they could be. Or you name it, right? And in the end, it’s like—it took some heat on that post, but in the scope of life, that you know… it’s like my dad. It’s one, “Hey, come on. Don’t say that.” So that’s the scope of it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, again, I noticed an act of courage and I just wanted to call you out on it and thank you for it, Eric. Um, let’s have two friends and now three with you voicing that… two friends that we’ve talked about it a lot. One of them is like in disagreement with me and I’m… but your one thing that I’ll say Householder—long-time pastor of mine—taught me is like, oh, if scripture didn’t have something to say about that, I wouldn’t either. Because in a lot of ways, I don’t care. I really don’t other than it, you know, I believe it does have an effect on the social athletic fabric and all that kind of stuff, but like, yeah, I couldn’t—I really couldn’t care less. But I don’t want to be somebody that… I’ve never been somebody to walk by stuff and just let it sit if I could contribute. And I view that as a contribution, not a put-down.

Jeff Johnson: And courage and a godly thing because again, truth spoken in love is like a kiss on the lips and it—you’re not… you can’t receive it for the other person, but you can give it in love the way that it’s intended. Yeah. Okay, let—I want to end with this one, Eric. And thank you for letting me keep you for so long. I want to know what you anticipate that God is going to be leading you to in the next 12 months. What kind of courage are you going to be confronted with? Thank you, my friend, for letting me ask you these questions.

Eric Voelker: I know that you ask that knowing that when you ask it, you’re asking that to people who you know are thinking about that stuff all the time. And it’s… I think more relational unifying. I got a few more to go. And there are ones that I’ve… you know, I’ve got a long list of reasons that they’re not done yet. But even in the next week, a couple of them have calendar dates right now. Even for the next week, I’m going to take some first steps and of course those are the… it’s the rubber hitting the road. You have to like loosen the grip and let it go. And I want to do it and I don’t want to do it. You know, I want to do it because I know on the other side it’ll be better because the way it is now apart from each other, it’s nothing. So why stay there? I’m talking to myself right now. Why stay there?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Eric Voelker: It’s… you know, nobody likes Bill Hybels anymore, but man, did God deliver some good teaching through him. “From here to there.” You can know where you need to go, but you have to wholeheartedly believe that you cannot stay here. Because if there’s any—it’s Israelites who want to go back to Egypt. If there’s any way to go back or to hunker down to do the squatter’s rights, you will. And it’s not only the vision that we’re drawn to and called to, it’s the exit of an old way of life. We cannot stay here. Why? Because it’s killing us. It’s not the way it’s supposed to be. Cornelius Plantinga’s book—you probably know this name.

Jeff Johnson: No, no.

Eric Voelker: It’s Plantinga. What’s the name of the book? The book title is Not the Way It’s Supposed to Be: A Breviary of Sin. It’s right up here, Ellie. I’m getting it. I’m getting it. It’s heavy and slow.

Jeff Johnson: Eric Voelker, man of God, dear friend of mine, you have got so much to teach, my friend. And you are a man of great courage. Thanks for letting us check in with you again. And you’ll be back, please.

Eric Voelker: I will. Thanks, Jeff. Merry Christmas.

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