Strong Hands, Stronger Heart: Dr. Honkamp on Empathy and Endurance

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp is an orthopedic surgeon based in Des Moines, Iowa, and the president of DMOS Orthopaedic Centers. Born and raised in Dubuque, Iowa, Dr. Honkamp studied at the University of Notre Dame and later earned his medical degree from the University of Iowa. His journey into orthopedics began through hands-on experience in athletic training, and he has since built a career grounded in empathy, resilience, and leadership. In this episode, Dr. Honkamp shares deeply personal stories of loss, including the passing of his sister and father, and reflects on how those experiences shaped his understanding of courage. He discusses the quiet strength of his mother, the importance of pressing forward in the face of grief, and how being a parent and surgeon continually calls him to practice compassion and conviction.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey, friends. This is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. Our guest today is another friend of mine, doctor Nicholas Honkamp, who is an orthopedic surgeon based here in Des Moines. He’s also the president of Demos Orthopedic Centers.  

And, what a wonderful episode. You’re gonna gain a lot from this episode where doctor Hunkamp talks about the quiet strength of his mom in particular and the importance of pressing forward in the face of grief and how being a parent and a surgeon continually calls him to practice compassion and conviction. So without further ado, here is doctor Honkamp. Nick, I’m grateful that you’re joining us on the podcast today. Thanks for doing this.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: You’re welcome. I’m not I’ll do my best. I’m not sure, how qualified I am for it, but I’m happy to give you my spiel.

Jeff Johnson: I promise you, you’re very well qualified. But before we do that, I’m gonna delve into your world a little bit. Do you see how our listeners know that this is audio only so they don’t have the benefit of seeing my face? But you can see how ragged I am right now. I have just come back from five days. My dad, fell on Thursday, broke a hip. Eighty seven years old did that. So we’ve been down through Methodist. Doctor Ganel did the surgery. Fantastic job, all of that sort of thing. I had a PA, Amanda Divig, and she was absolutely fantastic. But, boy, dealing with somebody who’s who’s got some cognitive decline and is 87 years old and has a broken hip was a interesting endeavor. So we finally got him settled back in in his assisted living facility, and he’s getting PT and all that sort of thing. But I have a newfound appreciation for you surgeons because how many surgeries might doctor Ganell or you or your colleagues have in a day?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: It depends. But I would say I’m gonna average somewhere between four to six or four to eight.

Jeff Johnson: And how do you manage the patient care outside of the Operating Theater? I mean, I I don’t know how you do it.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: I mean, a lot of help. Right? There’s folks like Amanda that help out. Most of us have, you know, PAs or nurse practitioners, so they’re super, helpful. But, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s it’s a great job. It’s super rewarding. But, yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s a little right? I mean, people are sometimes in crisis. Families are in crisis. So you you you learn to, like, be empathetic, but at the same token, you you can’t get totally sucked in. You know what I mean?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Because I mean, you gotta keep moving on. So Well, maybe to put this in context, maybe you can give us a little bit of background, our listeners a little bit of background. I’m gonna get to the main question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But to put that in context, maybe, you and I are friends. We’ve known each other for just a little while now, but, I’m always impressed when I meet a surgeon, but I’ve been very impressed with you with the kind of work that you do over at Demos. But can you tell our folks, who you are, a little bit of your background? How did you get into the medical profession?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Sure. I was born and raised in Dubuque, so Northeast Iowa. Didn’t appreciate Iowa. Didn’t appreciate Dubuque, how pretty it was because it’s just where you’re from. Was super eager to get out of of Iowa and Dubuque. So went to college, at Notre Dame. Dubuque’s super Catholic, so Notre Dame is, like, the, like, best school you could go to. So everybody was super happy, and I was super happy to go. Had a great experience, met my wife there. Future wife, got into medicine. I thought about engineering. I thought about medicine. It was a stroke of luck when I was there. I, got into athletic training. The the staff there at Notre Dame was great. We worked with a lot of the athletes, worked with a lot of the orthopedic surgeons. And so I was like, wow. This this is something. Like, this is interesting to me. So then went to med school, at Iowa, and, we got married and just was going through each of the rotations. And I said, you know, is this do I like this as much as I like being around the orthopedic surgeons? And it was like, no. No. No. No. Until you get to the end of your rotations, and you’re like, well, whole bunch of noes, so I’m gonna go into orthopedics. And so that’s why I did haven’t regretted it. Did training at at Wisconsin and Pittsburgh, and then when it’s time to find a job, it was as simple as, my wife is from New Jersey, and I had nicely said to her even before we got married that I I might wanna move back to Iowa, and so that she should make her decision accordingly. And and so I said, okay. We’re gonna move back to Iowa. And she’s like, fine. What’s the biggest city again? And I said, Des Moines. And she’s like, look there. So I looked for a job there, and that is literally how I got here.

Jeff Johnson: That’s fantastic. Do and family, kids?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Four kids. So I have a a freshman in college. I have boy, girl, twins that are finishing up their junior year in high school, and then I have an eighth grade daughter.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Wow. You’re blessed, Nick.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yep. I’m sure you’re blessed.

Jeff Johnson: So so I’m curious. You you said, you know, you like the orthopedics more so than the other rotations that you went through. But was there a time when you were, doing that kind of work, getting your hands dirty, so to speak, that you thought, you know, I have the courage to go down this field? Because, I mean, messing with people’s bones. I mean, I barely know what I’m talking about, Nick, but that’s important stuff.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: You know, I I gotta be honest. I never maybe it’s just the being youthful. I I never thought about it that much. I just liked it. It didn’t freak me out or gross me out. It was fun. It was fun things to learn, and I I honestly, I never thought more about it than that. As you get older, right, you tend to contemplate and and think things over a little bit more. So I totally get where your question is coming from, but I don’t think young when I was young, I ever really got too deep into that.

Jeff Johnson: You stop the mechanics of all of the human body and the way that this works. I’m hanging out with these people, and this is great.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. And I didn’t go any further.

Jeff Johnson: That’s fantastic. Well, I think that’s the best way to do it. You know? Discover God’s calling. You know? You just you got a passion somewhere and

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Notre Dame a good school?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Notre Dame is, to me, a great school. I totally understand that it’s very polarizing. So when I bring that up, I am I’ve become fully aware that either somebody’s gonna think, like, oh my god. This is so cool. I wanna talk to you forever. Or, god, I hate that place, and how could you ever go there? So I totally get both sides of it. I obviously are on the side of of, it’s a it was a wonderful place, but, it’s it’s tends to be a little polarizing.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Well, I’m, I guess, I’m, agnostic on the topic in Notre Dame then other than they weren’t in a conference, and they’ve I’ve always thought they’ve had a much better football team than my well, our, I guess, beloved Hawkeyes.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: But I always thought the football was so cool. But

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s fun. It’s a sort of pageantry in and of itself.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, I’m curious. This is a podcast about the topic of courage, so we do wanna get down to that question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? How do you define courage, Nick? When you hear that word, what does that mean to you?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: I would define courage as, sort of the the will to do what you think is the best thing to do, whether that’s for you or your family or your community, but sort of the courage of your convictions. Right? Well, that that can sometimes be hard, and so that’s how I define it as is being true to what you think is the right thing to do, whether it’s easy or hard.

Jeff Johnson: Being true to yourself, so to speak. Yeah. I like that. Do you have people in your life that inspire you with courage? I mean, people that you could point to and say that’s an example of courage right there?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. For sure. I mean, when we’re gonna talk about courage, the probably the two biggest things would be, and it sounds kinda corny, but, for sure, my mom and dad. I mean, the we can get into the stories a little bit more, but, just some of the things that they’ve done that I’ve watched, and maybe some of the things I either took for granted or didn’t fully appreciate. And and then life has that way of sort of kicking you in the ass and and making you realize, certain qualities, at certain times. And so I I would definitely say my my mom and dad.

Jeff Johnson: I was I would put you in that way. Well, that’s cool that you put it that way, and it’s not really the naivete of going into the orthopedics profession becoming a surgeon. You know, this is just something that I like, but maybe it is, you know, being just drawn to something, and then you can look back from, you know, a distance and go, wow. That was a courageous decision to come down this career path. And, likewise, you know, you might take your mom and dad for granted a little bit and then look back on it and go, wow. These are courageous people.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. For sure.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Okay. Well, I feel like there’s something at the root of that. So I’m gonna jump right in, Nick, and ask you what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done, then we’ll catch some other questions on the other side of that.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: So I would say, and it it, again, maybe sound kind of quaint or, like, a little elementary, but, I’ve had a ton of blessings, great parents, but probably the little bit of the curse in our family was we’ve had, two of our, people in our immediate family sort of pass away at young ages and and do so relatively quickly. And so I I think watching, my I had a older sister that passed away at a young age. So watching my parents go through that, and then I had my dad pass away at a relatively young age, super quickly, essentially, right in front of my eyes. And watching how my mom, dealt with that, I think we’re both they were super courageous, and then they sort of it sort of rubbed off on me a little bit in terms of, instead of sort of licking your wounds a little bit and and just being, you know, poor me, both of them were sorta like, you know what? Sometimes, like, those you curveball, and you you just gotta you just gotta keep going.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. That’s gotta be difficult stuff, Nick. How old were you? I’m sorry if it’s okay to ask. How old were you when your sister passed away?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. For sure. I was 22. Okay. So she was, I was the youngest. You could in my Catholic mother wouldn’t say it, but I was probably a mistake. I had three older siblings that were a lot older. So she was my closest sibling, about six and a half years older than I was. And I was 19 when she, what actually killed her. She got breast cancer when she was 26 or seven. Got treatment, surgery, chemo, went into remission, then it came back, like, two and a half, three years later. So I was 22, when she passed away. She was 29.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. And you saw your mom and dad deal with that loss Yep. And the courage that they walked through. Did that did that inform you in real time, the courage that your mom and dad had? Because I would imagine you’re dealing with your own grief, so it would have fogged over everything, I would think.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yes. I I don’t think I I fully got it. I don’t think you fully get it until you have kids of your own. I think that’s when it sort of hit me. Like, till if I had lost one of my own kids, like, okay. Now I get what that how bad that would suck. Yeah. And so no. Not at the time. One of the funny stories that sort of gets to your question was, I was so my sister passed away in the summer, and it was, two weeks before I started medical school. So, I, she passed. We had all the services and everything, and you you just feel just terrible. And so I had inquired to Iowa where I was going to med school if I could defer for a year without having to reapply and go through all that, rigmarole. And they said, yeah. You can you can you can defer for a year. So So I called my mom up. I’ll never forget it. And I was, like, heavily leaning towards doing that because I just didn’t feel like I had, like, the mental energy to crank up for med school. And I I wanted to do well, and I knew if I did ortho, I had to do well to get in. And and I was like, you know, do I have it in me? So I called my mom, and I’m like, mom, you know, I’m just not feeling up to it. You know, I’m really sad about Heidi, my sister. You know, I’m thinking about deferring for a year, and there’s this long pause on the other end of the line. And I was like, you know, is she sad? Did I make her like, what’s she what’s she gonna say? And then she finally goes, you know, Nick, I think that’s a terrible idea. And I was like, what? And she’s like, you know, if you just defer for a year, what what are you gonna do for a year? Nothing that exciting. And you’re probably just gonna wallow around, maybe become home, feel sorry for yourself. What good is that gonna do? You need to go to school and just keep going. And that’s all she said. And then I was like, I was just dumbfounded. It was the last thing I thought she was gonna say to me. I thought, you know, my mom is a wonderful woman. I thought she’d be like, oh, you know, honey, I I get it. You know, it’s hard. No. Not at all. And, and at this point, in our family, you after college, my parents sort of turned you loose. So you were off the payroll as they say. So Yeah. I was paying for med school. I was on my own. In hindsight, I could’ve just totally said, well, you know, screw mom. I’m just gonna do what I want. But I remember at the time thinking, well, I have to go. Like, mom just said I have to go, because you’re still 22 and you’re just Right. You know, still a kid. And so I did. And I and she was right. In hindsight, she was a % right. And it was it was a hard year. I mean, it’s hard school and, you know, you were new place. You know, you left all your college friends behind. My my girlfriend who came turned out to be my wife was in a different city. You know, it was it was a challenge, but I don’t think I would have been any better off taking a year off. And so I asked her that a couple years ago. I said, do you remember that conversation? And she goes, no. And I go, well, well, this is what you told me. And she’s like, well, I a % agree that I that’s probably what I said, but I don’t remember that at all. And, so that also was like I mean, she just shot from the hip, and she was a % right. And it I thought, like, if I said that to my kid now, like, I would be worried. Like, you know, what did I do to him? Did I did I rock their world too much? Nothing. She obviously wasn’t a big enough deal that it stuck in her mind. And, obviously, it was a trying time, so maybe she just forgot. But so that when you say courageous, I think, I think of my parents and sort of making me I would like to think that I was courageous, but I think it was really you know, you I was sort of stood up by my mom in that instance of, like, look. You you gotta just keep going. Like, this sucks.

Jeff Johnson: From your I think from your mom’s perspective, I mean, this is from an outside viewer of of the story that you just the painted for us. The courage that your mother had and the courage that you had, you know, for her to give you that kind of coaching and for you to follow through with it. Because, you know, there is that opportunity to fold in on yourself. You know, that sorrow is a real thing. Did you take it at the time as encouragement from your mom? I mean, did that feel like a breath of fresh air? Did that feel like a mandate? Like, I still don’t feel like going, but mom said, so now I gotta go.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: No. I was I was pissed because I was Okay. I sort of wanted to give in. And, and then there was, like, no way of giving in really without, you know, losing face really and and hearing it from my mom. And so I I I mean, I hung up the phone. I was like, damn. Right. I was like, you know, you think about it. It’s like, well, could I still do it? Well, no. Like, I she just totally boxed me in. Damn it. Now I gotta go.

Jeff Johnson: So So now when you look back on it, does that feel like a courageous event for you to press through and to go ahead and go into medical school?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. Yes. Because, I mean, it was it it was a it was hard. I I really, really miss my sister and and that the way that she passed, the story was, she was getting sick and and my, mom called me and said, do you know you should really come up to to Minneapolis where she was? And so I, it was late at night. She’s like, you should, just get up early in the morning so you’re rested and come up right away. And so I did what what mom said. So I got up at, like, six and got in the car, and I was, on 35, and I was past Albert Lee, if you know your way up through Minneapolis. And I called my mom. This is in the nineties, so from a payphone. And I, and she she choked up on the phone, and I was like, oh. And she’s like, oh, Nick. She just passed away. And, and so then I drove, like, the last hour and a half, and, I was just kind of a blur. So and I always felt bad that I, you know, I stayed overnight, and I I didn’t get up there. And I didn’t get a chance to see her. So I I sorta had that sort of guilt, going on. And so, yeah, it was, it was you know, there’s there’s, like, physical the physical toughness of of school and just, you know, having to grind it out, but it was the sort of the emotional energy that it took, you know, to school sometimes sucks and med school sucks, so you gotta kinda keep grinding. And I always felt like I was a little on the low side, but but I had enough to get through.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I did not know that story about you, Nick, and I’m and you’re blessing me by telling me about it. And I’m so sorry to hear about that passing your sister. I know that was a while ago, but, wow, that’s heavy stuff. What was it similar with your father? Was that long afterwards?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. So, so that was 22. And then, my dad, passed away at 74, which, you know, I mean, is relatively young, but still obviously a lot older than 29. But Yeah. He was super healthy guy. I mean, exercised, watched 28. And, it the story goes, I had been at Demos five or six years, and, I I think it was more less my ability and more, just nobody else wanted the job. But, at the end of the year, December, we had a board meeting, and I was elected. That was when I was first elected president of Demos. And, and I was excited about it. And I think other people were like, you can have it. But I I was excited, and I was young and dumb and didn’t have a lot of experience. And but I was I was excited because I knew I’d learned a ton. And so I I remember calling my dad, like, December 30 and saying, hey, dad. Like, this is what happened. And he, owned an accounting firm and, was very savvy in business. You know, as an accountant, you sort of learn the insides. You get to see under the hood of a lot of different companies. And so, he he was wise that way, very wise. And I I remember saying to him, like, I admittedly don’t know what I’m doing trying to help run this group, so I’m gonna need help. And he laughed, and he’s like, you’ll do fine. You’ll learn on the job. I’ll I’ll help you. So that was great. So then fast forward, like, three days, I was on call over the weekend, and my mom called me and, and sort of was describing these weird symptoms my dad was having. And I I said, mom, he he’s having a stroke. I said, you need to go to the the hospital. And so she did, and then I called somebody and got off call and started driving towards Dubuque. And he had a, a stroke where a clot went and lodged in one of the arteries in his brain. And so one of the treatments for that is they can give you a medicine to help dissolve the clot. Mhmm. And he got to the hospital quick, so he was a candidate for that. One of the issues with that is, they give you this medicine that can dissolve a clot. The problem is sometimes it can go the other way. So it dissolves a clot, but then you can actually bleed, into the brain too because the normal clotting mechanisms aren’t working because of this medication that’s working to break up the clot. So in a sense, the medicine that’s trying to save you by breaking up the clot, in some cases, can kill you because it causes more bleeding into the brain. And I knew this, and they they prep you beforehand, and they’re like, you look, here’s the, you know, the percentages. And so they gave them the medicine, and then they do a CT scan about an hour after they give it to you because they wanna check to see if there’s any bleeding or, you know, what things look like. And about thirty minutes, after he started getting the medication, he’s like, oh, I just have this crushing headache. And I was there, and my oldest sister who’s an OBGYN was there, and and we both looked at each other and were like, oh, shit. Like, he’s he’s bleeding into his brain. Like, this is happening. And they took him down to the CT scanner in between when they took him down and then they brought him back, like, he was, like, like, almost childlike. I mean, like, he the bleeding into his brain had just started this downward mental decline, and there’s nothing to do. If you have a neurosurgeon right there, you have a chance. We were in Dubuque. There wasn’t a neurosurgeon. So the best they could do is life flight them to Iowa City in a helicopter, and they did. But I knew it. My sister Jill knew it. Like, this is over, because by the time we get him in the helicopter and get him to Iowa City and, you know, the golden hours are over. And so that that was arguably even a little bit harder than my, sister because you’re just watching it unfold and you you know what’s happening. You’re equipped with the knowledge to know exactly what’s going on and that you can’t stop it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: So that was, and that I have a little guilt there. I couldn’t, I I I found it hard to be in the room, with him because you could just see it spiraling down, and I I I didn’t want that to be sort of my memory. And so Mhmm. I was sort of losing it, and I I I sort of pride myself on keeping it together in stressful situations. And that one, I totally bombed. And so I I was outside the room and, but to your point about courage, I remember, they they put a catheter in his bladder and and put IVs in. It was getting them ready to go in the helicopter. And, I remember him saying, like, childlike to my mom, you know, I have to go to the bathroom. And my mom was like, Arnie, you know, you have a Catherine. You can just go. And he, you know, it was childlike. I mean, he’d said it, like, 10 times. And my mom, bless her heart, never left the room. And, just answer his question every time.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Wow. To be around that kind of courage too. Nick, what does that do what does that do to you? I mean, maybe let’s focus on your mom. I mean, it’s your mom and your dad dealing with your sister for sure and you as well, but but, you know, your mom is a common denominator in all of these. So she is demonstrating great courage in the face of loss like that. That’s got to have that’s got to have a cumulative effect on you. Do you feel like you’re equipped with something, or do you feel like there’s a call to be courageous like your mother, or do you just admire her? I mean, what’s that do to you as a person?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. I mean, I my dad to go back to my sister, he I think my mom, in hindsight, was probably even more courageous than my dad. But, with my sister, I remember calling my dad and I were super close, and, I remember calling him at one point, Heidi, who bought my sister and just saying, you know, dad, I was just complaining. I was like, dad, this sucks. Right? I mean, I’m like, I just this sucks. And, and he I’ll never forget his words were, you know, you just have to find your new normal. That’s That’s what he kept saying. You have to find your new normal. And and he was right. I mean, it’s not gonna be the same. It’s gonna be new, but you gotta find, like, your new baseline, and you gotta you gotta get to that spot. And it’s gonna suck, but that’s what you have to do. And so I always remember that. I even remembered it then when he died. I remember, you know, his words echoing. So he he was that way too. But to get to your question about my mom, more so just admired her for because I always thought of my dad who was he was hard on us. He was old school. You know, if if you got an a minus, it was why wasn’t it an a? What happened? When he was when I was younger, I resented it a little bit because he was so hard on us. And I so I always thought him is tough. Yeah. And and, you know, just, you know, didn’t didn’t care if, you know, he he made us mad. Didn’t matter to him. And my mom was always very much more loving and and nurturing and and kind. And so I always thought of my mom. I I confused that with weakness almost. And then when I saw her with my sister and then I saw her with my dad, I sort of dawned on me. I’m like, that that wasn’t weakness. That was that was just a a nice person who underneath was really strong. So I think it was more of firing her. And then I think as you’re a parent, you realize that effect. So you you’re trying to emulate that for your kids, I think, is probably the the way I take it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. It’s I don’t, I don’t espouse to be a scholar or somebody that asks the best questions, Nick. So some of these might be inappropriate, but I’m gonna go ahead and ask them anyway. When you walk into the Operating Theater now, are you equipped with that kind of courage that comes from your mom? I mean, do you have does that turn into confidence in you? Because I think the accumulative effect of that has to do something. Like, you have to be, I don’t know, either a more positive attitude or a more confident person or, you know, that does that courage turn into something? Has it turned into something in you? Isn’t that a terrible question?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Maybe that’s a good point. I don’t know. Yeah. No. I I think, and this isn’t patting myself in the back, because I think you go into it because you have some of this in you. But I’d like to think I’m fairly empathetic that I can I’m not I don’t think I’m a pushover, but I I can put myself in other people’s shoes and and see I mean, I tell our our surgeons this all the time and our staff, people come in, they’re scared. Right? Even if you tore your rotator cuff, that’s scary. Right? You might be a electrician. You can’t work for three or six months. Like, you all sorts of things are running through their brain. And so I think if anything, it’s just made me sort of empathetic that, like, this this is hard. Like, this is our own sort of suck that they gotta get to their new normal. And so I think if anything, that that’s what it’s rubbed off on me, maybe.

Jeff Johnson: Because you’ve been in the valley before too. And, oh, that’s a great that’s your answer was much better than the way I phrased my question, Nick. That’s that’s wonderful. You’ve dealt with a lot of patients. Have you run into any patients that have taught you something about courage?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Oh, yeah. I, I I remember, a, a patient of mine, I did surgery on her, and she had a a a another like, a cardiovascular complication that was, postoperatively that that ultimately led to her death, and I felt terrible. And the nurses called me and said what was going on. So I came in, and her husband was there, and, and she ended up passing away in the night, and I I I stayed, with her husband because I I just I felt bad. And so earlier that day, I was rounding, and, they asked me what I was doing. And I said to them, an activity that one of my daughters was doing that we were gonna go watch. And, and so the husband remembered that. And so we’re sitting there, and it’s, you know, it’s a it’s a somber mood. Right? His wife is passing away, and he out of nowhere, just quietness. His pastor was there. It was he, me, and his pastor. And and the husband goes, hey, Nick. Your daughter, how how was that activity? And I was, like, stunned Wow. That he had the wherewithal with all of that going on to think outside of himself and ask me a question about my kid. And he he remembered. I mean, the whole thing was

Jeff Johnson: Isn’t that something?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. I mean, I I was, like, almost brought to tears. Like, like, I I don’t think I’m that good of a person. Like, I’m not sure I could have done that, but, boy, I I recognize it in somebody else.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Wow. Thank you for sharing that story. That’s a powerful that’s a powerful testimony. I imagine you’ve got a few of those where you People surprise you. Recovering mouth.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: People surprise you.

Jeff Johnson: So orthopedic medicine, I would imagine, like anything else, there’s new technologies and it evolves and stuff like that. Is there been a situation where you’ve had to adopt a new technology that’s created this that’s called out courage in you to go, okay. I haven’t done this before, but this is the thing, and I have confidence, and let’s go forward?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: I I just think the techniques always, expand. Right? So when I was in training, lots of things were still done, open through open incisions. And then just like like in the abdomen, you know, they used to make open incisions to take out your appendix, your gallbladder, and then they transition to what’s called laparoscopic through little poke holes. Same transition happened in orthopedics. Everything went from vast majority were done open to all the techniques were arthroscopic. And so that was sort of the training of when I was in residency and then when I was getting out. And so is sort of we’re learning that sort of on the fly a little bit, because it was sort of evolving. It was becoming the standard of care. So things like that. Then now, robotics is big. So, we’re still figuring out where that fits, but when you’re doing, you know, knee and hip replacements, you can do them robotically, and so that’s the next wave. So there’s I guess my point is there’s all the the techniques are always evolving, so you kinda that’s what makes it kinda fun. You gotta stay on it. And you gotta, like, my chairman in residence, he said, you you can’t get off the train. Right? You can’t just like, well, this is how I do it, and this is how I’m gonna do it the rest of my life. You gotta stay on the train and and keep learning. And and I think if the day where you’re like, well, I’m just gonna do this the rest of my time, that’s probably the time to start thinking about hanging it out.  

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I would like to say, you know, I shared with you that my dad just got out of the hospital. I’d like to say I exhibited great courage. I found the the family little commissary there where you make your own coffee, and I drank some of that. That took a lot of courage, Nick. That was some pretty rough stuff.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Often, coffee sometimes take courage. Depends. I mean, you know, if it’s like Starbucks or something, then you’re a little safer. But

Jeff Johnson: As a as a father of four, Nick, how has parenthood shaped your understanding of courage?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: It’s a good question. I think a couple ways. One from the parent side, as you know, it’s it’s hard being a parent. Yeah. And so I still find it even though I know it’s the right thing to do, I I I find it hard to both say no, to kids, for lots of different things, and, I find it hard to let them make mistakes. I think it’s courageous to be able to sit back and sort of watch maybe not a car wreck, but a fender bender happen, and you’re so to speak, and and you’re gonna let that happen as a learning experience. Mhmm. So I would think those are the two things is is saying no. Like, no. We’re we’re not gonna do that. And, yes, you’re gonna be mad at me for two weeks, and you might not speak to me, and that’s okay. Even when you know that’s the right thing to do, it it’s it’s hard. Right? You like your kids to like you, but we all like to be liked. Yeah. And then I think, letting them make mistakes. I think maybe I think previous generations maybe were better about that. Maybe they were just more hands off, and now we’re more hands on.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. When I see not to turn this around and make this about my kids, but I’ve got four kids as well. And when I see them, stacking up too many successes, I’m kinda thinking to myself not as a as a mean ogre of a parent, but, you know, a little bump on the head wouldn’t hurt too bad.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yeah. You know, let’s get a little third place here every once in a while and see how that Agility. You know, fuels you. Yeah. That’s humility. Exactly. Yeah. Well put.

Jeff Johnson: Do you think, do you think courage is an inherent quality, or do you think it’s something that’s taught or caught?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Can I I hate waffling, but can I waffle and say I I do think it’s some of both? Right? I think Right. I mean, you’ll hear we’re talking about books before and history and and, you know, you’ll read about World War two and d day and, like, none of those kids, right, were in that position before. But when there’s a plethora of stories of when the bullets started flying, some people froze and some people just rose to the occasion and were courageous and did very heroic things. And those things, they certainly could have learned some of that, but some of those experiences were so new that I have to think some of it was just in them to begin with. Mhmm. But then I think of things like my mom, and I think of, like, well, if if I’m courageous in any way, and I’m not saying I am, but if I were, it would be in part because I both saw in her, and I feel an obligation to sort of pass it along. So can I say a little of both?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I think so. I I personally, I believe, you know, you can have courage also, you know, along the same thread that can exist alongside of, you know, maybe more negative qualities too, like narcissism and stuff like that. I think you can have somebody who’s a little headstrong or prideful, but they could still be a courageous person because they’re, you know, charging in and, you know, doing that sort of thing. But I think I think courage is a really is a really, really, really good quality, and there’s a lot of things that flow from, you know, that kind of primary mindset, if you will.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: I agree with you. Almost every quality is a double edged sword. Right? I mean Yep. Too much of it could can go the wrong way.

Jeff Johnson: It totally is. And one of the reasons why I wanted to start this podcast, I’m so fascinated by the topic of courage. I think I might have shared this in a in a presentation that you saw, but, Jeff, you just lost your train of thought. Oh, well, it’s the idea that from my worldview, as a Christian worldview, is that, we’re all unique, and I’m the only Jeff Johnson that God ever made. You’re the only Nicholas Honkamp that God ever made, you know, in all of human existence. And so your flavor of courage necessarily is gonna be unique to you, and mine is gonna be unique to me. And so I like learning about courage from each individual because it is, you know, kinda specialized. Maybe get back to the medical profession, so to speak. But, maybe just a couple more questions, Nick, and then I’ll let you go because I know you got plenty of stuff to do this afternoon, but, gosh, it’s been a blessing talking to you. Do you think our society has an abundance of courage, or do you think we’re in a deficit?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Boy, I don’t wanna be the guy that is yelling get off my lawn, but I in some ways, I think there’s a little bit of a deficit because I think in some ways, maybe maybe maybe people said this about my generation, you know, forty years ago. But in some ways, I think there’s just so much ease of information and and access to things with phones and technology that I I think we miss some things with that. I think you miss everything from being bored to being frustrated to having to work a little harder to find information to just all of those things. I think, like anything, an advance has some downsides and the advancement of technology, I think the downside is it does make things easier in lots of ways. But then when things invariably will get tough, and I think everybody’s gonna have trials in their life, man, it pays to have had some hardships before you really have a really big hardship because, I think it teaches you some things. So I think a roundabout way of saying, I don’t I think there’s a little bit of a lack. What do you think?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. No. I I agree with you. I think laziness and passivity can run counter to courage. I think those can be things that kind of slow down. I always wonder with this artificial intelligence stuff because, you know, I I hold that very lightly, but I enjoy using a better typewriter. You know what I mean? And I don’t have a horse and buggy anymore. So I like I identify the technology, and I wanna be able to employ it properly. But I do think if I’m sitting down and I wanna, you know, fully express myself and then I take a paragraph that I’ve written and I put it through chat GPT to correct it for grammar and sentence structure and punctuation, It’s so easy and so efficient. Is that a good thing, or am I losing something in doing that? And if you can extrapolate that out to a lot of the other facets of life, I I I I agree with your point. I gotta be careful not to get too lazy, too passive.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: And I I think, again, just because we can, going back to the parent thing, I think we’re all guilty of this, myself included. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. So when you’re because you can do something for your kids or you can make it easier for them doesn’t mean you should. And I think if anything, parents have gotten more hands on, more hovering, you know, the days where you you you know, your kid went outside and and you didn’t see him for six or eight hours and you didn’t worry about him, and they they had six or eight hours of life experiences without anybody around, to intervene good or bad, probably was a good thing. And now with you know, you can be watched and your parents know where you are at all times on on your phone and and everything that you lose some things. And I think maybe a little bit of that is the courage to do to do things, the courage to fail, the courage to to experience things, and only maybe you know what happened, but you you know if if things went well or didn’t go well and Yeah. I think we lose that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. No. I totally agree with you, Nick. Okay. Last last question. I’ll back up to the to the business side because I’m I’m very curious about this. So you’re both president of Demos, so you’re in charge of organization. Is that fair?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: And you’re and you’re also a surgeon, a practicing surgeon. Which facet of that business takes more courage?

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: That’s a tough one. They each have their own. In a lot of ways, I would say being the president maybe takes a little more courage because sometimes you have to take unpopular stances, and, that can be lonely. And and there’s not as many people to commiserate and break up that loneliness versus if I’m a physician and something bad happens or, yeah, you have a tough day. Well, there are 25 other physicians here who have had tough days and and can commiserate with you on that. But if you’re the president and you sort of sometimes what you say carries a lot of weight and and people don’t like it, they sometimes will follow along, but then you get the blowback from that. I would say being present sometimes is is a lonelier job, and I think the loneliness probably translates into having to have a little more courage. Yeah. How’s that?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. That’s a great answer. Well, based on the fact that, my father was well taken care of by one of your colleagues and fellow surgeons over at Dimas, this organization that you run, and he was taken care of with excellence. It seems to me that you’re doing a fantastic job, Nick. So I’m grateful to you.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: That that’s, that’s all those people. I mean, choose carefully and surround yourself with really good people, and then they they make everybody look better. So that that’s a credit to Leah and and all the people that you came in to contact.

Jeff Johnson: Wonderful. Doctor Nick Hahnkamp, friend of mine, man of great courage, surgeon, father, husband, etcetera, etcetera. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Nicholas Honkamp: Thanks for thanks for having me. It’s it was fun. It was fun. I’ve things talked about things that I haven’t probably touched on in a long time. So thank you.

Outro: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.