The Courage to Serve: Laziz Khujakulov on Self-Change, National Impact, and the Wisdom of Rumi

Laziz Khujakulov serves as the Head of the Strategic Development and International Rankings Department at the Ministry of Preschool and School Education. In this capacity, he collaborates closely with leaders and teams throughout the Ministry and engages with external stakeholders. He plays a pivotal role in steering the organization’s strategic planning, always with an emphasis on producing the most significant benefits for schoolchildren and elevating the quality of education.

Mr. Khujakulov earned his degree from The University of Manchester, majoring in Organizational Management. Before joining the Ministry, he accrued valuable experience both in the corporate and academic sectors. He worked with multinational corporations like Hyundai and KT Corporation and further enhanced his academic proficiency through engagements with the Rovaniemi University of  Applied Sciences in Finland and the Alexander Technological Educational Institute of Thessaloniki in Greece. These affiliations were under the umbrella of the Erasmus Mundus EU project. A significant highlight of his career is his instrumental role in formulating the Uzbekistan National Compact for Education Reform for the period of 2023-2026.

He holds a seat on the Global Partnership of Education Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and Middle East Constituency Board. His insights were also shared in the GPE (Global Partnership for Education) KIX EAP Podcast – Episode 16, titled “Experiences of a policymaker, PISA, and the ‘Ivory Tower’,” in a collaboration with NORRAG. Presently, Mr. Khujakulov is advancing his education with postgraduate studies in
Organizational Leadership at the University of Oxford.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

• Follow us on Instagram @crossroadsapologetics
• Email us at info@crossroadsapologetics.org
• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining us. For another edition of Courageous, I’m joined by my dear friend Lazeez, who’s calling all the way from Uzbekistan. Several hours different from my time here in the U.S. But Lazeez and I had an opportunity to be students in the same class at Oxford University this past year, and it was wonderful to be able to meet him, and I’m happy to have him on the podcast and excited for you all to hear his story of courage. So, Lazee, thank you very much for being with us today. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Thank you, Jeff. It’s really a great pleasure for me indeed to join this podcast. And then I’m really excited about having conversation on courage. And then what I’ve done is something courageous. Thank you. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful, wonderful. Now, would you mind putting yourself into context for our listeners here, and let’s tell them a little bit about yourself, who you are, about your family, what you do for a career, a little bit about where you’re at. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Well, yeah. Thank you. Well. Well, my name is Lizis. Well, I’m from Uzbekistan. I was born in one of the most ancient towns in Central Asia, which is called Bukhara. So I moved to capital of Uzbekistan three years ago. And this is also related to the story I would like to share later on. Well, my major is management. It’s, it’s bachelor’s level. I did my bachelor’s in University of Manchester in uk and then I worked for a little bit in a university in a local university before I proceeded to my PhD in Greece, which was also very interesting. And it was in education management for. So after I graduate, I mean, I got the PhD thesis defended. So then at some point in my career, I decided to move abroad. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And then this is something that’s say more or less common for those who studied abroad and then they want to do something to earn a living to get a good wages. So, so there is kind of like I would say something like the phenomenon of brainwashing in Uzbekistan. And I think this is something common to all the post Soviet states. As you probably know, Uzbekistan was a part of the Soviet Union before 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed. And then after I moved abroad when I completed my Ph.D. I worked abroad in Korea for one of the Korean corporations for around seven years. And it was quite an interesting career. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
But then I decided to come back to Uzbekistan and I mean my decision to come back to Uzbekistan and to join the government was I think, yes, this one of this is the story I want to share later on. And now I’m the head of the Strategic Development Department of the Ministry of Preschool and School Education of the Republic of Uzbekistan. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow, that sounds like a big job. Lizzie, what kind of, what’s your work life look like? Like, do you have a lot of direct reports to you and what kind of things do you oversee in that capacity? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Well, basically as any, I think as any developing country which has the education as one of their top priorities, we at the Ministry of Preschool and School Education and we have a lot of work basically, I mean working overtime, working till say 9, 8, 9pm is very normal for us. And we do understand that, I mean we, we don’t like challenge it this way because we understand that we have very limited time to do reforms in education as well as reforms in the whole country. And then we have limited resources, including limited time. So we have to devote ourselves. This is the philosophy driving me at least. What I mean, what I personally do is because I mean how, how the strategic development in my country is based. We do this, the strategic planning for like say for five years to seven years. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And then the latest strategies was like strategies Pakistan 2030. And then based on that strategy which defines the main goals. And we at the Ministry of Preschool and School Education, just as a quick reminder that we are responsible for both the kindergartens and then the schools all over Uzbekistan. It’s around like 6 million students in schools and then another 4.2 million in kindergarten. So it’s like 10 million students overall and around 700,000 teachers. So what we do is basically in my department, we do this strategic planning of how we can achieve the targets we’ve set or say the government set for us. And then after we do this strategic planning, one of the challenges, of course, doing something theoretically in your office might be less challenging than piloting it in the field. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And sometimes piloting doesn’t really show the good results, which means that most of the things that you’ve done actually they render useless and then you do it again and again. Luckily it doesn’t happen very often for us. So yes, actually what we do is we do the strategic planning on how to achieve the targets which are set by the Government in the field of education. Especially in the field of the education. In secondary education. 

Jeff Johnson:
You’re busy. You’re a busy man for sure. Okay, Lizzie, so to calibrate it, before we get into the topic of what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? How do you define courage? How do you define bravery? Where do you see it in other people? How would you define courage? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Well, before I get to the answer, I think that the humankind has lots of weaknesses or say our saints or whatever, but I think the. The. The most horrible weakness or the. The. The most horrible thing that may happen to anybody in the world is them being covered. If a person is covered. This is the. This is the most dramatic thing that might happen to a person. Because when you are brave, it means that you are ready to accept challenges, you are ready to change yourself in order to be able to do even a small, minor change to the world. Because. Well, I’d say that I’m really fond of one of the most famous, the Oriental, this, the Sufi philosopher Jalaluddin Rumi. And what he says is, I was young, so I wanted to change the world. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Now I’m wise, I’m older, and I want. And I know that I have to change myself. So being able to change yourself, being able to do something that will change your inner self is something that define you as a courageous man, as. Defines you as a brave man. Because it’s. It’s quite easy to say that, well, there is a problem there. I want to fix it, but the problem is how you see the world and how you look at the world from the ideal point of view. And the. The difference is the problem. I mean, it’s something quite subjective and. But then before you want to change something, you have to be ready to change something. Getting ready to change something actually is changing something in yourself to. To emerge as a new self, to emerge as a new, qualitatively new man. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
From the spirit point of view and from the mind point of view. I think this is the. I think how I define being courageous or having courage or bravery. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. That’s wonderful. So being a coward would be the worst thing because it doesn’t drive you forward. But bravery and courage is necessary to drive you forward, to take that next step, to make any kind of positive change, if I’m understanding you correctly. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Right? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Lazee. Well, without any further delay, let me ask you the question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Well, yes, actually, I was thinking about a lot of the Stories in my life. And then. Well, but I think now is that I’ve been thinking about this podcast, like, if I say like maybe like two weeks to. To come up with the. The. What was most courageous thing is that, you know, four years ago I was in a very good position in a Korean company. And this Korean company, well, we. I had a very good salary, say, the prospects of promotion, though, actually having like a good relationship in a Korean company where the society is very preserved and they do not tend to accept foreigners, wasn’t easy. So I had to learn not only Korean language, but also Korean culture to get along with their behaviors and so on. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
I mean, I really like that these people, they’re really good, but I mean, they’re very preserved. Same way like as Japanese. But it took me around like six years to become like some kind of part of them. Being part of them is not easy. It’s. I mean, it’s extremely, I think, difficult thing. But once you become part of them, then you know, the. Most of the doors in the Korean society and the business and in your office and everywhere, most of the doors which are normally closed, the foreigners now open for you. And then it took me seven years, I mean, seven years of my time, my efforts and so on, basically. And. And I was, you know, at the brink of like, you know, to the qualitative jump, to the success. So I mean, anyone could ask me, like, say, okay, that’s great. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
You achieved so many things. Then why. Why now change something you’ve done so much to, you know, to your victory? And then the victory is just, I mean, the next door. Yeah, just go and grab it. But in 2020, so it’s like two years ago, I received the proposal from the, from my government, from the government of Uzbekistan to come and join the. The forum of those Uzbekistan people who are working abroad or who studied abroad. So I decided, well, I mean, there’s a good opportunity to come and visit Uzbekistan and then just like to spend a few days there to see my, like, old friends. And you know, it was. It was the New Year’s Eve to see my family and so on. Why not, like, use a chance? And then I was contacted by my embassy. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
They said, okay, just come and like, and the plane is ready, just go and then the hotel, everything is ready. But when I came here, I actually my. My career before that was a university lecturer. So I didn’t have much idea about schools. And then I had a conversation. It was. I. I clearly remember even the date I had A conversation with then the Minister of the Public Education on the start January 2020. And then suddenly he proposed, he said hey, look like you have a good experience working abroad, studying abroad and you know, the country really needs people who can make like reforms. And then, and one of the things we are talking about in the country is education because we believe that education is the key to success of our kids. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And the, the, the, I mean overall success of the society because it’s linked to human capital. It’ like buzzwords, but that’s true. And then I said so what? I mean so what is your, what is your question? Why are you telling this to me? And then he said like look, if you. And he said like I don’t think you’d agree and accept my proposal that if you would want to join my team, I would really glad. And it was, there was a discussion during the party. It was actually a party. And then actually the minister, then the Minister of Public Education, he. Why he was a part of us because he also studied abroad. He was, he’s a graduate of the Yale university in the U.S. I think it’s one of the top universities as I know. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And he did, I think this is the, he did something about ict. I, I don’t exactly remember the major, but something about ICT and he was like courageous enough, you know, to accept the position of Minister of Public Education because ICT is, you know, very spirit. I mean you can’t just like jump from my city to public education. But he was ready to accept it and he was looking for people who could join his team. And I was surprised. Well, I said I, I don’t know lots about the school education and I don’t know about anything about the local government system. I don’t know anything about like those who are already working with you, I mean with him. And, and it was really like say I was really surprised. It was really shocked. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
But then I thought about like look, if I theoretically accept the offer, then what would it change? And I said like, well, I’ll probably be losing the, the very good continuation of my career in Korea. I’d probably be losing very good salary that I’m receiving Korea. And everything was like, you know, against this. But then I said okay, can I just like have like around the two or three days time to take the time to think about this. And then you know, I visited my parents who as I said in the earlier in our post podcast, who reside in a smaller town in Bukhara. And then I, Well, I just said, you know, like, hey, father, you know. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Well, I had a talk with the Minister of Public Education, and then he said, okay, if you want, you can come to Uzbekistan and then we can provide you, like, some position there. And I, you know, and. And my mother was around there, and she heard me talking to my father. And then I was like, you know, expecting, hey, come on, are you crazy? Like, what do you have to do with that? Just ignore his. His proposal and just, you know, go ahead and go back to Korea. But then, no, you know what? My mother said, like, look, you may now work for yourself, but when you retire someday, you will probably come back to Uzbekistan, and then you will probably be living here. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
And then you probably will ask yourself why the situation is Uzbekistan is not as good as is in, say, in US or UK or in Korea. And then the answer will be you. Because those people like you who decided to go away from the country and not contribute to the country made it impossible for the country to grow. I was honestly shocked by this command, by my mother. And then she said, like, look, she said. She said to me, look, I was a teacher for 35 years, and I know that the only thing that can drive the country is education, but not only about education. The education that brings some benefits to the country, but to your country, but not to other countries. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
But what we are doing is, like, we are giving education to the kids, and these kids decide to go abroad and to contribute to other countries, whereas, like, we are just like, buildings being stranded, and you are one of them. And honestly speaking, I was like, shocked, not shocked by her answer. I was shocked by my ignorance how I didn’t think about it before she told me. And I was like, well. And I said, you know, I had. I said, like, let me talk with my boss in Korea. So we had the same, like, zoom as we are talking to you. And, you know, I was like, talking the. The general things about the importance of education, so on. And he was, yeah, of course, this is something. And then at some point, he said, hey, like, why are you telling this to me? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Like, when are you coming back? And I said, look, I’m not coming back. And he’s like, what? I’ve just, like, recommended you to promotion. Like, as a head of the department in Korea, getting head of the department is extremely difficult, especially if you’re a foreigner and if, especially if you’re younger than your colleagues are. And he said, like, are you kidding me? I said, no, I’m not kidding you. I decided to stay in Uzbekistan and I decided to work for the education. And then I said like, look, it’s the first time ever that I. When I decided for myself internally that I’m going to do something, not for my own sake, to forget myself as a self, but then to contribute to my country. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Because I remember when I was a kid, when I was like 20 years old, I received a scholarship from my country. It was 1998. Back then, Uzbekistan was very young countries. Like was only seven years independence. And then the economic situation was not so good. But the government decided to send some people abroad to study. And I was 20 years old. And I understand that it was taxpayers money. And I understand that even the poorest people who received the lowest salaries in the country, they contributed by paying taxes so that people like me could go and study abroad. But I’m pretty sure that my studies in Manchester was not the cheapest studies around. And then I said, what did I do to. To pay back to those people? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
What did I do to, you know, to help those people who paid for my education to make their lives better? I did nothing. So what can I do? I can contribute to the development of education. And it was actually, you know, when I was talking about it, I was talking and simultaneously thinking about it, and I said, like, well, I’ve just made a decision that probably cost me a career somewhere else. But on the other hand, it, you know, it made me, you know, morally be. Become totally different person. A person that is content, that is happy because he can contribute even the smallest thing to the prosperity of other people. I think this was the most courageous thing I did. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s a fantastic story. And that was in 2020? In 2020. Well, I’m just, I’m. While you’re telling. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to say that, you know, actually it paid back to me because I worked here for two years. We did lots of things. I mean, I’m really glad that were able to do lots of things. And one of the things that made this podcast possible is that I know you, I’m familiar with you. You’re a friend of mine and we met in Oxford. And then what made my study in Oxford is because government decided that some people who excel at work in ministries are worth being provided scholarship to study at Oxford. So I think this was very good thing. I mean, the government decided that I also need to go to Oxford to study. And then the government is paying for my studies in Oxford. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
So it means that because of that I met you and we are talking now and we are having a podcast and I’m being able to express all this, the story of my life. 

Jeff Johnson:
So kind of like way leads on to way. You know, one good decision, one courageous decision leads to another blessing and another blessing. Your story inspires me, Laziz, because I’m looking up the word in the Oxford Dictionary, altruism. And the Oxford Dictionary defines altruism as selfless concern for the well being of others. And I love how you’re defining that in real time for us, saying that’s the courageous decision that you made was to not think so much about yourself, but about how you could bless other people with your skills and with your talents and come back to your home country and pour into them. And I think that’s a fantastic thing. So well done, my friend. That’s absolutely fantastic. Let’s leave our listeners with a little bit of encouragement then from your personal experience, Lazeez, which is so powerful and so profound. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m sure there are people that are listening to us that are facing a difficult decision or they may be confronted with the question of should I do something for my own well being or should I do something for the benefit of other people and how should I make that? There are people right on the precipice of a courageous decision. How would you encourage people to take that step and break through and do the brave thing? 

Mr. Khujakulov:
I’d say, I think that from this point of view, all humankind is very equal. Well, you always, you know, you always will. Everyone will have a chance in their lifetime, our chance of 2, but probably a chance to make life better than the better than it was before. Not for themselves, but for people around. When you do something for yourself, then you might live very well, but at some point, everyone dies, unfortunately. But when you, then if you have a chance to make people’s lives better by sacrificing your own interest, you never die. Because people will always remember you. The next generations to come will remember you. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
They will not remember you because you bought like, you know, the extra expensive Mercedes cars or luxury yachts or boats or something, but they will remember you for contributing even a small thing that changed someone’s life, even as one kid’s life or even some adult’s life. They will remember you forever. And then the, this hearsay about that someone lived like say 100 years ago that, you know, made changed, made things change, will keep your memory in the hearts and the minds of the future generations. So if you really want to die and live forever, you have to sacrifice something. So I think this is one of the good things. I think this is the main driver to do. That’s my idea. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s very well put. Lazies. And from the expression on your face, which, unfortunately, our listeners can’t see, the joy that you’re just exhibiting right now tells you about the validity of the decision that you made to go help other people as opposed to just thinking about your own self. So you’re an inspiration, Lizzie, to me and everybody else who’s listening. So thank you so much for being on the podcast, brother. It’s wonderful to see you. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Thank you, Jeff. And I really, you know, I really thank God that I had the chance, you know, to. And thanks to you. Thanks to you. Thanks to the whole your project, I would say, idea about podcasts. It is a great thing, you know, that people from all over the world have chance to hear from people who they might otherwise never know. And I really wish that your podcast, you know, gets wider and stronger than it is now. And I really wish success to you and help you so that you can keep it going all the time. And, you know this. I wish you tons of energy for that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Thank you so much, Lizzie. Thank you. Thank you. 

Mr. Khujakulov:
Thank you. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web rossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email At Info@Crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.