Faith, Family, and Freedom: Brandon’s Inspirational Evangelistic Story

Brandon, an international evangelist, is deeply committed to his mission of
liberating individuals and guiding them to fulfill their true potential. His
ministry, which can be explored further at www.exodus51.org, is a testament
to his dedication to this cause. Brandon’s approach is inclusive and dynamic,
effectively engaging audiences of any size and demographic, from quaint
rural congregations to expansive, multi-site churches. His central message is
unwavering: the focus is, and always will be, on Jesus.

In his personal life, Brandon is happily married to Erin, his soulmate, and
together they are proud parents of three wonderful sons. Beyond his
evangelistic endeavors, Brandon enjoys spending quality time with his
family, playfully affirming his role as the ‘toughest guy in the house’ to his
boys. This balance of profound spiritual leadership and devoted family life
embodies the essence of Brandon’s character and mission.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

• Follow us on Instagram @crossroadsapologetics
• Email us at info@crossroadsapologetics.org
• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Courageous podcast. I’m super excited today because I got my dear friend Brandon McNaze, who’s going to come tell us about his ministry and some amazing things that are going on in Pakistan. And there’s too much to talk about here, so this is going to be a tough one to condense, but Brandon, isn’t it? 

Brandon McNaze:
We got three, four hours. 

Jeff Johnson:
We’re gonna take it. Okay. Tell the listeners a little bit about you, who you are, a little bit of your history. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, I’ve only been to jail one time. No. So, yeah, I grew up in Iowa, wanted to be in finance, wanted to make a bunch of money, do all that type of stuff. And then God got a hold of me, I met him, and everything changed, kind of thing. And through a crazy set of events, I now run a ministry. And I know we’re gonna get into that, but I’m married to the love of my life. Met her at the swimming pool as I was a lifeguard, spinning the, you know, whistle with the aviators on that whole thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
You were that guy? 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, 100. Pre Jesus. This is pre Jesus. And then we’ve got three amazing boys. Yeah. Just a great life and. Anything specific? 

Jeff Johnson:
No, that’s it. Well, you run the most amazing ministry. And before I ask you what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done, I want to hear a little bit about that ministry and how you got into it. I know it’s a really long story, but. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, so. So I. I left the corporate world, thought I wanted to make a bunch of money, and then, you know, got my dream job. Everything was awesome. And then God spoke to me one day in the locker room as I’m getting ready to go back to work, you know, put my suit back on and said, this is the dream for your life, but this is not my dream for you. And then I go up to the office and, you know, getting ready, and then following day comes around, and kind of my mentor at work comes to me and said, hey, I was praying last night, and I just feel like we love you, but I just feel like this is your dream for your life, but this isn’t God’s dream for Your life. So it was kind of that confirmation I needed. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so I ended up leaving there through a crazy set of circumstances. My dad got sick. We ended up taking care of him. That’s. That’s a whole nother podcast. Yeah. But God’s hand moved in his life. He gave his life to Christ, you know, a week before he passed away, which was something that was prophesied to me that would happen when I was in Israel, that my dad would know to cry. I mean, you. I mean, it’s just crazy stuff. Yeah. Became a pastor, and then after that, God called me out of that, during kind of that Covid, at the end of that Covid season, said, I want you to be an evangelist. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I walked away from everything, didn’t know how I was going to pay any of the bills, and then started preaching at little churches here in Iowa and then got invited to Brazil. And Brazil really is kind of where I tell people kind of everything started. Do me go over that story. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I’m in Brazil. Things are going great. Got an interpreter. You know, Brazil is crazy. Anyways. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, how did you get invited to go to Brazil to preach? 

Brandon McNaze:
The evangelist that led me to Christ, you know, when I was, I don’t even know, 23, 24, he invited me to go down to Brazil. And so I went down to Brazil with him and then some other pastors and stuff like that, and so went down there and preached at my first church. Anyways, we leave this one particular city, we go to another city. And in this city, no one knows who I am. No one knows what I do. And this church went to is huge. So I was thinking, okay, it’s time. This is gonna be amazing. And then I didn’t get asked to preach. And so I was sitting there, and I was like, man, why didn’t I get asked to preach? This is a huge church. This is an amazing opportunity. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so clearly, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, the only reason you wanted to preach here was because it was a large church. And I was like, yeah, that’s. Yeah. And so God spoke to me and said, the Holy Spirit did and said, the only way that I can use you is if you deal with your pride. And so I went down to the altar and just said, God, I’m sorry. You know, help me to be whoever I need to be to accomplish whatever it is that you have for me. Anyways, church service is done. I haven’t spoken there. No one knows me in the city, and a lady walks through the door she points at me. So she comes over. She said, I had a vision. We get interpreted over. I had a vision this morning. 

Brandon McNaze:
God told me to come to Henrija Metadista and Jewisha Flora. The man in my vision was you. And I have a few things I need to tell you. And I was like, okay. You know, somebody’s like, hey, a word from the Lord for you. And you’re like, okay, let’s hear it. The first thing was, why are you so worried about money? So I left a good job, and I was very wrapped up in, you know, having everything figured out, finances and blah. You know, I was stingy. Somewhat stingy, but, like, really trying to amass something for myself here. Right. I wanted the vacation home. I wanted all this stuff. And anyways, she said, why are you so worried about money? Don’t you think that God’s going to take care of you? 

Brandon McNaze:
And to kind of shorten it down, the second thing she said was, you don’t spend enough time with God. And in my head, I’m like, I spend a ton of time with God. I write sermons. And she looks at me, and I thought that thought I didn’t say it out loud. She goes, and I know you write sermons. And I was like, excuse me, what did you say? And she’s like, in the vision, I saw you in your office. And she described everything in my office. She said, you’re good, but you spend time with God for everyone else, not just you and him. He wants to spend time with just you for you and him just to know each other. And I was like, all right, this is getting a little bit more real. She accurately described my entire office. Everything she said. 

Brandon McNaze:
The third thing I have to tell you is that God’s called you to Asia. He’s gonna use you to set his people free. He’s giving you a key to unlock doors that no one else can unlock, and that through you, a region of this earth is gonna change. Or something along those lines. And I said, okay, what’s the key? She’s like, I don’t know. I was like, well, what’s the country? I don’t know. And she said, that’s all I’m supposed to tell you? And she walked out the door when. 

Jeff Johnson:
She’S telling you this. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Are you receiving this as though it’s truth? I mean, do you have. Are you tingling or are you thinking to yourself, this is nuts? 

Brandon McNaze:
Once she described my office, told me that I write sermons. And then she saw me writing a sermon in the vision. Yeah, I Was kind of like, okay, I’m. I’m buying in. And so she. She walks out. I don’t think anything of it. The next night, I’m there. Guess who didn’t get to preach at the big church again. Me. This lady walks up to me, a younger lady. She spoke English, and she grabbed my arm, and I have a tattoo on my right arm. She grabs my right arm, and she said, excuse me, is your name Brandon? And I was like, yeah. She goes, okay, good. God told me to come to D. Sanduista Floor. The man in my vision would be there. It’s you. And I was like, wait, you saw me in the vision? 

Brandon McNaze:
She goes, no, I didn’t see you in the vision, because the lady the day. The day before saw me. She said, no. In this vision, God spoke to me and said, there’ll be a man at this church. He’ll have a tattoo up his right arm. His. His name’s Brandon. You need to tell him a few things. First thing is, why are you so worried about money? Second thing, you need to spend more time with God. He’s called you to. Third thing, he’s called you to Asia. Set his people free. He’s giving you a key. I mean, word for word, everything. So I was like, what’s the country? I don’t know. Okay, what’s the key? I don’t know. And she left after that. So I’m sitting here. This was August of 2021. I have no idea what’s going on. Wow. 

Brandon McNaze:
But I end up going home. The church that I didn’t preach at, no one, they invited me back in October to lead a conference for them. So I was thinking, huh, that’s kind of weird. The reason is they taped some of those things in October of 2021, and they put them on the Internet. Okay, so this leads into the story. So I come back. I was supposed to do another trip with that particular evangelist down to Peru. A bunch of churches down there. Covid changed a few things so I couldn’t go. They changed, like, the requirements and stuff. And so we go to theater, and a guy. Anybody that knows anything, like, if you’re in ministry or whatever, people will write you on the Internet and like, hey, send me money. You know, I’m a Nigerian prince, you know, whatever it is. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so this one particular person was like, you know, hey, shalom, man of God. That’s all he would say because he didn’t speak English. But I didn’t know that. And I was like, hey. But then he left. It that he never said anything back other than shalom, man of God. So I kind of was like, okay, I’m not talking to this guy anymore. So we go to this event at this movie theater, a chosen thing, Christmas special. And in the Christmas special, they define the word shalom. The moment they define the word shalom. I automatically heard his voice and I was like, man, I feel like I’m supposed to write this person. So I told my wife on the way home, I was like, hey, I think I’m supposed to write this person. 

Brandon McNaze:
Well, I get home and Simon, who now runs everything for us in Pakistan, had written me via Facebook Messenger. We’ve been waiting for years. God told us to wait, that he would send to somebody. We saw a sermon that you did in Brazil, popped up on our Facebook and God said, this is the one you’ve been waiting for. I want to talk to you about helping us with our work. So I’m like, what? Like, okay. So the next day, everybody uses WhatsApp overseas and stuff. And so we get on a phone call on WhatsApp. And I was like, hey, how’s it going? He’s like, hey, you know, so glad, you know, he started talking to me. He spoke English and basically he was like, hey, you know, I’d love for you to come over here. I said, well, where’s here? 

Brandon McNaze:
He’s like, well, we’re in Pakistan. So I Google, is Pakistan in Asia? It is. And I was like, all right, well. 

Jeff Johnson:
What do you do? 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, what do you do? You know, what’s your. What, what do you need help with? And prior to that, when I would go to different churches and preach during that time period, I. I was preaching out of Exodus. I was a one trick pony preacher. You’re going to hear Exodus stories, you’re going to hear Moses stories. I just couldn’t, for some reason, I couldn’t not preach about it. And he goes, well, have you ever, you know, the slaves in Exodus? I go, yeah, I’m familiar with Exodus. And he goes, well, there’s, you know, anywhere between three million and four and a half million Christian slaves here in Pakistan. And we go and we preach to them and work with them, but we don’t have all the. We don’t have enough resources to do this work. 

Brandon McNaze:
But we would love for you to come over here. What do you think about taking a trip? And so you come into the story because I remember coming to our Bible study and was like, hey, Bible study, guys. What do you think about Me going to Pakistan. And then everyone was right. 

Jeff Johnson:
For the benefit of our listeners, we have a Bible study over at my house every Friday. And Brandon was in the Bible study, and he comes over and he starts talking about, yeah, I’m thinking about going to Pakistan. We started to say, well, do you know anybody in Pakistan? Why is this that you would want to go to Pakistan? 

Brandon McNaze:
And I tell you the story that I just shared with you now. That’s right. And everyone’s like. And so I had met an evangelist, and there was other, you know, things, but just for the sake of time. But I’d met an evangelist down at Tulsa, and I remember calling him and telling him the same story. And I said, hey, my wife’s all on board. Which I’m like, okay, does she have life insurance out on me? Like, this is kind of crazy, but she’s on board. She said she has peace about it. What do you think? And I remember this is like a life changing thing for me because I. If your listeners have been in the Christian circles for a long time, you know, you hear sermons, make Jesus, you know, the Lord of your life, make him Lord of your finances. 

Brandon McNaze:
In making Jesus Lord, that’s just. That’s a very. Sometimes turns into this very cliche thing to say, because we say it, but I don’t know if we really mean it type of thing, right? And he goes, I’m gonna ask you a question and don’t answer it and say no. I said, okay. He goes, are you willing to die for him or not? So really, that’s another way of asking, is Jesus Lord? Yeah, because if He’s Lord of your life, which means he owns your life. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
Your dreams, your everything. And, you know, just for the sake of listeners, I had left my job as a pastor. I had applied for a bunch of other jobs to try to, like, get by. All of them got denied multiple levels below where I left my particular. I mean, I’m laughing at this point, getting denied at all of these jobs, and I have a good resume. So I’m like. And it was just like, God’s closing every single door. There’s nothing else I can do. So I said, yeah, I am ready. You know, there’s nothing else for me to do. I think this is the only thing. And he goes, good. So you need to go. Don’t worry, he’s going to protect you. So I’m kind of like, all right, let’s go. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I’m talking to Simon, and then basically one day I was like, you know, we’re talking about these slaves. And I’m like, okay. You know, he tells me about what they did. So they make bricks, you know, ten to eighteen hours a day, hundred plus degree, heat, raped, killed. I mean, the worst of the worst stories, and you’ve obviously heard a lot of them. And I’m like, okay, well, can you buy them? Can we free him? And he goes, yeah. And I said, well, how much does it cost? And he said something like around 250 bucks, probably. And I was like, what? So for the sake of the listeners that are married, I would not suggest doing this, but. But I started just sending him money off, like charging my credit card. Sending this guy money in Pakistan. 

Jeff Johnson:
Who you haven’t met before, haven’t ever. 

Brandon McNaze:
Met, talked to him a couple times on WhatsApp. But it was so specific, right, That I was like, I gotta do this. 

Jeff Johnson:
This is exactly what we’re taught to do as small children. We go to Brazil and preach a sermon. Somebody sees that on YouTube from Pakistan, they solicit us, and we give them our credit card. That’s what you’re supposed to do, correct? 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, I know. And it’s like, it sounds crazy unless you’re there. Unless you’re going through these minute things where God’s like. I call them God winks. Where he’s just going, yep, keep going. Yep. So I started getting these pictures of these kids and these. And I’m at the gym, on the treadmill, and I’m like, crying. You know, this is January, February, and I’m, like, weeping. People probably thought I was going through a midlife crisis, but God was just breaking my heart for these people. And so I had something like, I don’t even know, 12,000 something on my credit card. And at this time, I’m not making really any money. We’re using our savings. And then this particular church that I’ve spoken at before, the pastor’s like, I feel like, aren’t you going on a trip? I said, yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
And he’s like, where are you going? I said, I can’t tell you. What are you doing? I can’t tell you. He’s like, well, I feel like I’m supposed to take up an offering for you. So he gets in front of the church, that weekend, is like, hey, Brandon’s going somewhere. Can’t tell you where. Can’t tell you what he’s doing. But I feel like we’re supposed to take an offering for him. So if a number pops in your head, write it down. And we’ll give him the money. Well, two days. And I remember calling you two days before I leave, or three days. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, hold on. I want to back up just one little bit, because there was. I think it was a couple weeks before you left to go on this trip and our Bible study. We’d been praying about this for you. And I remember you sitting at the end of the table saying, I’m going in faith, but I’m going like this. And you grabbed a hold of the table with your fingernails and you went, kind of like, I’m going, but I’m not sure, you know? And it was a. I don’t know what kind of picture of faith it was, but I remember it had an impact on me and everybody else that was around there. Because you really felt convicted. I had to go, that you have. 

Brandon McNaze:
To go, and I didn’t want to. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you didn’t want to. 

Brandon McNaze:
So it’s like, yeah, I want to go, or I kind of want to go, but mostly I don’t. But I know I’m supposed to. It’s kind of a weird, like, internal thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
And then the other beautiful part that you’re talking about right now is you don’t have the resources to cover what you were planning on. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I was gonna sell my truck. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you were gonna sell your truck. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I called a guy, hey, how much can I get for my truck when I get back? So I got the number and all types of. So anyways, a couple days before I leave, I get this check from this church. They don’t know where I’m going. They don’t know what I’m doing. But numbers popped in their head. All the church gave, and they wrote me a check for whatever, 12,000. I mean, it was almost the bill. And so I heard God say, are you going to trust me or not? So at that point, I’m like, amazing. All right, I’m going to. So April 20th of 22 now, I jump on a plane and I head over, and my first stop is Doha. Well, I think Houston. Houston to Doha. So we’re in the Middle East. 

Brandon McNaze:
And then the moment I land in Doha, all over the news, like, on the BBC and stuff. In the airport, the prime Minister of Pakistan got kicked out office. And so I’m like, does this change something for me? Like, I don’t really know what to do now. And on my phone, like, U.S. Embassy, like, do not travel to Pakistan. I’m like, well, I’m already over here, so. But I’m, like, looking around And I tell people. I was like. I remember being like, this is a really nice. I really like the Middle East. There’s gold stores, Porsches. Like, really. It’s like fancy. And I’m like, I’ve been called here. This is great. I love it here. Like this. I could get used to this great food, all this type of stuff. 

Brandon McNaze:
Then I go on the next leg of my trip and I land in Pakistan and I’m like, oh, Pakistan’s a little different. And so I land there and I just remember walking off the plane and everyone’s like a foot shorter than me. So as I’m getting off the plane, I’m like shrinking down. I have, you know, obviously tattoos somewhere in camouflage over my tattoos, I have boots on. I grew my beard out. So I look like a somewhat military. Probably I’m the only American in the entire airport. I don’t know if the listeners, if anyone has ever vacationed in Pakistan, but it’s not necessarily a hot tourist spot. Yeah, most people don’t go there. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
And I just remember this military from right off the bat, this military guy looks at me, he goes, come over here. And I’m thinking, great, I’m going to jail. Like Paul, you know, he. He wrote some letters in jail. Maybe I’m going to write a letter. I don’t know. That’s what I was thinking. And so I get over there and he says, why are you here? So I’m visiting my friend Simon. Oh, where did you meet Simon? I was like, facebook. And he’s like, what? Well, where are you going? What city? And I didn’t know how to say the city. And it’s Graham, but I didn’t. I was like. Like, I don’t know how to say this. And he’s like, are you here to overthrow our government? And I was like, what? 

Jeff Johnson:
Really? 

Brandon McNaze:
What? And he’s like, yes. Are you here to. Over. Our prime minister has been kicked out office. Are you here to overthrow our government? And I was like, no. And then a couple other military guys come over. He asked me multiple times. And this is not a political statement. It’s just what happened. It is what it is. And so finally I’m like, if God called me here. And I think a lot of times we fall trapped into. You know, we read books and we do all this stuff of people’s journeys, and unbeknownst to us, we kind of like maybe assimilate some of their story into our story. And so I’ve fallen trapped to it before. Where you Become something that you aren’t. But not, like, intentionally, but you’re like, well, so. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so did their stuff this way, so I’m gonna do it this way versus, like, being who you’re called to be. And so in my head, I was like, all right, if God called me here, I like to tell jokes and I like to be funny. And so I shouldn’t have to change who I am. If God called me to this mission, then I get to be me. And so I looked at him and I said, I’m just going to be honest with you. I didn’t vote for the current president, so if I was going to come over here and overthrow your government, I wouldn’t be helping him. And I. And he goes, what did you say? I said, I’m just being honest with you. And I don’t remember. 

Brandon McNaze:
I mean, it’s been a little bit of time, but it was something to that effect. And he goes, we don’t like him either. And I was like, what? And he looks around and he goes, well, he’s like the last president. Oil and gas, everything was cheaper and blah. We like the last guy better. And I was like, what? And he goes, you’re going to love Pakistan. I’ll have a great time. And he lets me go. And I walk out of the airport, out of the security thing. And then what I tell people is the next vivid memory I have is I was in a white van. 12 guy, or 10 to 12 people in this van were packed in there. Everyone’s got an AK47. No one speaks English except for Simon. So they’re all speaking in Urdu. And I’m thinking, I’m getting taken. 

Brandon McNaze:
Like, I’m getting. So we’re going into the middle of nowhere. So imagine nowhere in Pakistan and go even further. That’s where were going. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wait a minute. So you’re. You’re received at the airport. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
You meet up with Simon and his cohorts. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And then you’re in a van. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, yeah. And we go, do. I don’t remember what we did that morning, but that night were in a van driving into middle of nowhere. And I’m looking out, and they joke. Now there’s. They’re always like, brother Brandon has such a good memory. Well, when I was driving, I was like, bridge, River. And I’m trying to remember landmarks, because if I have to get out of here, how am I going to run back? Like, that’s the only reason I was remembering this stuff. And so I. We. We go to this spot in the middle of nowhere. No lights. And there’s one little light, and it kind of reminds me of, like, an old Western. There’s, like, old shops one end of the road, another old shops, like, in the middle of nowhere. 

Brandon McNaze:
It’s like this little bit of shops, like, where you’d see, like, a tumbleweed, like, you know, kind of thing in a film. And there’s a little plastic picnic table in the middle of the road. And there’s a couple guys at the picnic table. We got a bag of cash, and then we get out. They say, stay here. They walk up, and that was the first, like, exchange we did for people. So we’re like, buying them. And then finally everything is done. And the slave owner’s son. So for the people listening, they make bricks. So they work 10 hours, 18 hours a day. There’s roughly whatever, like, 20,000 brick kilns in Pakistan. But they’re brick. They make bricks. So we call their brick kilns. So the brick kiln owner sent his son over, and he was like, does your government know you’re here? 

Brandon McNaze:
And I was like, oh, yes, they do. So through an interpreter, we’re talking, and he goes, really? I said, yeah, they’re watching me right now. There’s a drone above us right now. And all. And they interpret it. And all of the Pakistani guys look up. They’re, like, looking up in the air for the drone. And I said, don’t worry, it’s too high up. You can’t see it. And they were like, oh, wow. Because were a couple hours away from where Bin Laden was killed. So they know about American military coming in and doing whatever. Right? 

Jeff Johnson:
So you’re just trying to get some kind of. I’m just cover. 

Brandon McNaze:
Some kind of an adventure. I was lying in the name of God. And so I would get back in the van, and I just remember Simon being like, you have a drone? I said, no, but they don’t need to know that. And that kind of kicked everything off for us. And then I just tell people I met a group of people that have more faith in God than we ever will have. 

Jeff Johnson:
You’re out in the middle of. You’re out in the middle of nowhere and you’re freeing Christian slaves. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yes. And they’re owned because of their faith. Muslims can’t own Muslims. So these are fourth, fifth, sixth generation slaves that owe debt from their great, great great grandfather. We’ve only encountered one family that has ever known freedom and then gone back in. And we’re now the Number one organization doing this work in the entire country. 

Jeff Johnson:
Amazing. 

Brandon McNaze:
And this one particular family, the only one we’ve ever encountered, I said, how did you get here? They said, the man said, my father. So the grandfather of the family went to the hospital, got sick, couldn’t pay the bills, dies. And obviously these bills are outstanding. So the eldest son in that culture inherits the good or the bad, so he inherited bad. So a slave owner came in the hospital, obviously doesn’t they want their bills paid? So the slave owner says, hey, I’ll pay your bill off. They can pay it off for me. So I’ll assume they’re dead. Well, now that family is in and they’ll never get out. So that’s how new families. 

Brandon McNaze:
So it’s not like they’re charging credit cards, you know, over here we think, oh, you know, it’s all we’ve ever heard is basically it’s around hospital type bills and then they get sucked into the system and they’re never going to get out. 

Jeff Johnson:
And they’re paid a little bit in the brick kiln, but they’re never paid enough to get ahead of because they have to pay for things while they’re there too. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah. So like the general ideas, imagine if you had 10 people in a family and let’s say they had to work 10 hours a day. I mean, it’s pretty low, but let’s say 10 people, 10 hours, it’s 100 hours. Let’s say they might get something like a dollar per day for 100 hours worth of work. And then what happens is they live on the brick kiln. So the brick kiln owner is like, well, I have to charge you rent for this. 

Jeff Johnson:
Horrible. 

Brandon McNaze:
I mean, it’s the worst living conditions you ever seen. But they’ll charge them rent. And then, oh, I gave you a scoop of rice for your lunch meal, so I have to charge you for that. And then, oh, by the way, you eat dinner or breakfast and they have to buy their dinner or breakfast from the slave owner, so he charges them money for their food. So by the time they get down to it, they don’t make anything during the day. And then there’s like a month or so where it’s rainy season over there. So imagine making bricks that are sun dried and then taking to a brick kiln if it’s raining for a month. So their quota of, let’s say 2,000 bricks a day still needs to be made. 

Brandon McNaze:
So for that month they’re in the hole that day, in the hole the next day. In the hole the next day. So they’re never going to get out. There’s no possible way. They go to the. If they need medicine, he’ll charge him for that if he even allows them to have medicine. So it’s the craziest set of stuff I’ve ever seen my life. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s amazing, Brandon. So, okay, the purpose of this podcast then, is to ask the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And you’ve answered it. Kind of, I want more. 

Brandon McNaze:
Then I guess for me, I’ve learned a lot lately. People are like, I can’t believe your faith. I can’t believe the courage you have. And I don’t really. I don’t feel like I have any, to be honest, if that makes sense. Because the people that, you know, we have now, you know 60 to 70 team members and you know, the stories, you know, they’re getting guns pulled on them. All this crazy stuff is happening to them all the time. And I don’t feel like I have their faith. And so honestly, I don’t feel like I have a lot of courage. I don’t feel like I have a lot of faith. I was almost like pushed into a corner, and then I can only do what’s in front of me, if that makes sense. 

Brandon McNaze:
So when I think about my life, I actually don’t feel like I have a lot of courage or faith. It sounds weird to people when I say that, but if you knew our team and you get to hear the stories, if you knew the people that are doing the work day in and day out for us, I don’t have anywhere near the courage they have. I almost feel like for me, there was nothing else I could do. Like, I was so broke. I knew I had skills, I knew I had aptitudes and giftings and stuff like that, but it was almost like God put me in a position where I was like, this is the only thing you’re going to choose. It sounds weird, but I just remember just feeling not hopeless, but like there’s nothing else for me to do but this. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so what I tell people is I don’t know if I have necessarily courage. I just give God a yes. So that’s really what I stand on. So if God says something, I want you to jump. My natural response is, well, how high? And I’ve gotten to the point now there’s only so many videos you can see of kids being shot in the head, Stories of people being raped or killed or whatever. And I go, I literally don’t have it bad at all. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
So I’m to the point now where, I mean, you could call it, I guess, courage on the Western sense of, like you’re willing to give up whatever. But I don’t feel like I’m giving up anything because I, day in and day out, work with a bunch of people that have given up way more than I’ll ever give up. They’re literally the stories. I mean, there’s been crazy stories that happen over there, even when I’m over there. But it’s like in that moment, I don’t. I don’t feel like I have courage. I don’t know if that even if that makes sense. 

Jeff Johnson:
No, it makes sense. But I love that definition that you’re giving us about courage. It’s just saying yes to God. Whatever it is that he asks you to do, you just say yes to Him. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you’ve learned that because of your experiences back and forth over in Pakistan. How many times you’ve been over there? 

Brandon McNaze:
Four now, four trips. We usually go over there, like, week, two weeks at a time. 

Jeff Johnson:
So the ministry is really young. How long has the ministry been going? 

Brandon McNaze:
I mean, April of 2022 is when it started. And so the first year, the first eight months of 2022, I think was 303 people we set free. And now, as of recording here, it’s. We’re in December of 2023, and we’re at 1629 people, getting ready to add another four families by the end of the month. So we’re going to be just shy of 1700 people now. So. 

Jeff Johnson:
Just shy of 1700 people. And it started because you couldn’t get another job. You ended up preaching in Brazil. A guy from Pakistan reached out to you, and you gave him your credit card, and now there’s 1700 people that have been freed. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, I mean, it’s. We got a church, we have a school with a bunch of kids at it. I mean, I think another way, like, as you’re thinking, like I’m thinking about courage. One thing that I would say is. And maybe it’s. It’s kind of synonymous, is. Maybe means the same thing. But I would say I do have a level of faith. And so I don’t want to get in theology of this. I don’t know if it’s correct or not, but I always say faith is the currency of heaven. And the more you see God move, it rises up in you. And it’s almost like when your back’s against the wall and he Shows up, the army is in front of you like an exodus. We have nowhere to turn. And God’s like, go forward. Why are you crying out to me? 

Brandon McNaze:
And they walk through the water, and the water splits. It’s those things where it’s like, you know, I don’t have any courage in myself, maybe would be a better way to say it, but I have courage to stand on what he said and what he’s called me to do. But really, I would call it. I would just say faith, because he’s. I’ve never been let down. Like, I always. In the moment, you’re thinking, this. This sucks, or this is really hard, or whatever. I mean, it’s not like going over there is extremely easy, you know, I think the last trip were over there, the guy that one of the guys I went with was joking. He said, I think it was like 110 degrees with 70% humidity. And he’s like. He goes, I’ve never been this hot. He goes, my shins are sweating. 

Brandon McNaze:
Like he was joking. But it was like, it’s sweating so hot. And I was joking. I was like, everything there is trying to kill you. The food’s trying to kill you. The air is trying to kill you. The heat’s trying to. I mean, it’s just like. It’s not fun, but it’s the most alive I’ve ever been, if that makes sense. So, like, the first couple trips, two trips, I got sicker than sick, and I’m like, oh, my gosh, this is horrible. But yet when you see people get healed, we’ve seen blind eyes open deaf ears. A guy that hadn’t walked in 13 years get up and walk. I mean, tumors, like tumors on people’s necks and stuff just shrink. Huge goiters just gone. People are like, what happened? I’m like, I don’t know. They’re just gone. I don’t have theology for it. I can’t. 

Brandon McNaze:
I just know that it happens. And so for me, it’s almost like if anyone has courage, I’m resting in God’s. I don’t know if that makes sense, or resting in our teams, but when you see time and time again, God pull through, there’s this faith that rises up. So I say, I probably lean more on my faith than my courage. So I’m leaning on his strength versus my strength, because I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s not like I’m like, I read 101 for Dummies how to go over to Pakistan and start A nonprofit. 

Jeff Johnson:
Where’s that book? 

Brandon McNaze:
And the other piece, too, that I’ll say is. It is not lost on me that what we’re doing a has nothing to do with me. And I am resting and standing upon the shoulders of generations of people that have plowed ground, that have given blood, sweat, and tears. Like, tons of people came before me that I’m standing on their shoulder, their sacrifice. And I’m literally. It’s almost like this ground had been all prepared. And I get to come in and do some of the fun stuff now. But knowing my personality, God’s like, I’m not going to ask you to plow the field because you’ll probably give up, but could you harvest some of this. These crops for us type of mentality. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNaze:
So there’s generations of people that have done far, much more than I can ever imagine before me. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s amazing, Brandon. It’s amazing. Did the people know that they’re going to be freed? I mean, are they on a list and they’re aware of that, or. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, so we have a huge list. The first trip, it was a surprise. So that was like, it’ll go down. I mean, I have a video of this first family that we ever freed. And just imagine these people, none of them have hurt. We’ll ask them still. Have you heard of anybody getting set free? No. I mean, there’s. Let’s say there’s four. Like, let’s go, like, 4 million. 4 million people. And we’re at 16, 29. We’re the leading organization. We’re a drop in the bucket. Okay. So no one’s seeing people get set free. They don’t even. I mean, they pray for it. Oh, yes. My great grandfather, my grandfather, my father. And now I’m praying for this. And so you’re sitting there going, they’ve never seen it. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so that first trip, I got to see us talking to him and then them understanding what were doing, and they just broke down. And it was the most. It changed my life forever. Like, imagine. I can’t even put it into words. Like, it’s just a video. Right. And so I still. This guy goes to our church now. And so when I go there and we’ll preach at our church, he’s always there. And so I always see this guy in the crowd, and I’ll pull him up on the stage and hug him because I just remember he was the first one. Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Brandon McNaze:
And since then, everyone knows what we’re doing, and we do that more for protection so that they Know, hey, the slave owner can’t treat you like this. Can’t do this to you. Hey, you know, in two weeks you’re going to be set free, or a week you’re going to be set free. And so we do it from, like a protection standpoint to let them know. And then the other part is it’s easier for our team. So these people are treated as property. So imagine if you owned 100 cows and you wanted to just get rid of a cow. You could do that. It’s the same way over there, their property. So when we free them, we’re actually. It’s almost like getting a title for a car. 

Brandon McNaze:
So we get the paperwork and then we go and we actually register it with the local government and they get issued a Pakistani identification number. So they become people at that point. So it’s also easier for our team to get the necessary paperwork and to do all the stuff they want to do if the people and everyone involved knows what we’re actually doing. So it’s a way cooler if it’s a surprise, but it’s from a practicality standpoint, it’s much easier to do what we’re doing if everybody knows. So. 

Jeff Johnson:
So say the how folks can find you. And we’ll put all of this up in our on our show notes here. But say the URL. 

Brandon McNaze:
So it’s www.exodus so e x o d u s the number five, the number one. 

Jeff Johnson:
So exodus51.org and they can find you there. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yep. 

Jeff Johnson:
I remember sitting around a table where you were telling the story early on right after your very first trip, and you talked about the cost to free a slave. What’s the cost to free a slave? 

Brandon McNaze:
It’s $250 to buy someone, which is, like, crazy to think about, you know, like. And then what we do is it’s $50 a person to set them up with housing and food for six months. So what we do is. So we have a school. You know, we’ve. Now we’re busting it seems we got about 250 slave kids that we teach how to read and write. We have a church of like 4 to 500 people that meet every single week. And that’s really where, like, we do events with 10,000 people, Adam. And we feed the slaves. Our church does everything. I mean, it’s just. They’re fantastic. But what we do is. And now our church is full, so we can’t. So we have partner churches when we set them free. So 250 bucks to buy them. $50 a person. 

Brandon McNaze:
But we’ll buy them in, like, let’s say a family of seven. So 7 times 300 is $2,100. So we’ll buy a family at a time. Then we set them up for six months with housing and food, and then we get them connected to a local church. Initially we’re like, let’s start a ton of churches. But really, why are we trying to recreate the wheel when there’s a bunch of churches already? So for instance, went on one trip and I walked in this church and they were like going crazy. And I was like, dude, this church is awesome. Like this is. And then I was like, man, this is like probably the most fun church we’ve been to in a long time. And Simon was like, well, half the people here, and there’s probably 200 people at the church. 

Brandon McNaze:
Half the people were our freed slaves. So we’re literally building up these churches that are partnered with us now. And we’re. So we’ll get them connected in a house and housing next to or by close enough to this church so they have community. So for those six months, they’re gonna be taken care of. We know. Cause we can’t look after everybody, but we know these churches and these pastors that have been vetted by the team that they can. And then during that time, you know, hopefully the kids can get access to a school of some sort and then the parents get access to jobs and things like that. Because obviously we wanna make sure. So six months they have to save and all that type of stuff. 

Brandon McNaze:
And so far, we haven’t ever had an issue where somebody has needed something or, you know, because obviously we don’t want them to borrow from a slave owner or something like that and get back into it. And that’s a question that’s asked a lot. And so for us, it hasn’t happened yet. But I’m assuming when we get to 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, you know, whatever the number ends up being, I’m assuming we’re going to encounter a situation. So we’re going to be figuring out ways where we can help them on the front end. So do you need medicine? We’ll work with your church and work with us to figure out versus you taking on this debt and stuff like that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Growing ministry. It’s fantastic. So if any of you listeners want to get involved, it’s www.exodus51.org. And just like Brandon demonstrated early, you just got to get your credit card out pretty easy and there you go. 

Brandon McNaze:
But Tell your wife or your spouse what you’re doing. Don’t do what I did and hide it from her and go, what am I doing? 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s right. Okay, just a couple more questions before I let go of you, Brandon. But it’s just such a fascinating story. That is. Okay, let’s be honest, it’s a little fantastic how the Lord orchestrated all of this to happen. And people are probably wondering that are listening out there. How do I hear the Lord’s voice and how do I know what to do and what not to do? Because that is a big stretch. And there were a bunch of us that were praying for you to have good discernment. And I’d like to think that was part of that unction that God gave you to. Yeah, I gotta go. Even though it doesn’t make any sense to go to Pakistan. I’ve never been there before. How. How would you encourage our listeners to. 

Jeff Johnson:
To hear the voice of God and do the courageous thing that you’re talking about? Either. Either go or don’t go. But the most important thing is saying yes to God, whatever it is he wants you to do. 

Brandon McNaze:
Yeah, I think, I mean, there’s a bunch of different things that kind of come to mind, but I mean, just really practical. When we say yes to God, when we say Jesus, your Lord, we’re given a portion of his Spirit. The Holy Spirit resides in all of us. And I know some churches like to talk about the Father, the Son and the. It’s like, wait, what was the third part? We don’t really want to focus on that third part. But Jesus says that third part. It’s actually better that I gave you this gift. So in essence, Jesus was kind of saying like, it’s better that the Holy Spirit’s inside of you than me beside you. So this Holy Spirit thing is the guider. It’s the power. Everything flows through the Holy Spirit. And so when we get connected, we have the ability to hear. 

Brandon McNaze:
And it’s not perfect all the time, but I would say a good practical thing is a reading scriptures. And everybody’s like, okay, you know, but it’s true. I can’t tell myself I want to hear the voice of God. If I don’t know how to judge if it is the voice of God. Because we hear stuff all the time. I hear thoughts all the time. They’re not always God. We have a lot of self talk where you go past the mirror. Maybe one day you’re like, oof, I need a little work. Well, God’s not Necessarily saying that, right? On the flip side, you’re like, man, I’m so blessed. Or there’s these thoughts. And so one really easy way is, are you reading the Scripture? 

Brandon McNaze:
And so what I tell, I just got back from another state, working with some youth, and they were kind of asking the same thing. And I said, here’s a really easy way. If you said yes to God, we know the Holy Spirit resides inside you. And so I say, you know, journaling is huge. Get it? So I told it. This is what I told the kids. I said, open up a journal. And I said, open up your Bible and just open the Bible up wherever and read something and just kind of sit there and just say, ask a couple, like, questions. So the first one would be like, God, who do you say that I am? Another one might be, God, what should I know about you? Or who are you? Or God, what am I supposed to do? 

Brandon McNaze:
And then I said, and then just write down whatever you think. Well, what about if it’s something I said? Write everything and just don’t think about it. Just write it down and answer every question. And then this is how you judge it. The first thing would be, does this line up with Scripture? So one girl was telling me, she’s like, I tried what you said, and I heard that I’m worthless. I heard that this. That’s not God, right? So cross it out. And then I said, and then if you read something and it seems too good to be true, that’s most likely God, you’re beautiful. I’m so. I’m so proud of you. These things I can’t believe a creator would say that to me. Right? And then it’s just practice. And so, you know, we talked about the beginning. 

Brandon McNaze:
God wants to spend more time with you. And that’s something. Even me, as somebody that was a preacher, that was evangelist at the time, God’s like, I want to spend time with you. And so if I went on a date with my wife, and this is like, super practical, but it’s true. If. If you’re my wife and we’re sitting down and I didn’t say anything to you all meal, she didn’t say anything to me. Well, I don’t know anything about her. She doesn’t know anything about me. And God obviously knows everything, but it’s this relationship, this back and forth. I. All the time, My God. I’ll just talk in the car. God, I’m so thankful that you chose me. I can’t believe that. That you would choose me to do this work. God, I’m so blessed. God, Father, thank you so. 

Brandon McNaze:
And it’s just this internal dialogue, and not all the time. Typically, I’ll hear God really well. If it’s like a correction, like in Brazil, until you deal with your pride, I can’t use you. I hear that really well. It’s the other things. It’s the seems good to me scenarios, where even in ministry, that’s what we choose. What should we do this month? It seems good to me. This seems good. We’re asking God. God guide us. Then I almost think sometimes he’s like, just make a decision, and I want to see what you choose. And maybe sometimes he doesn’t tell you. Exactly. And so that’s the piece where people really. People want to hear him and they want to say, what’s the step? What’s the step? What’s the step? And that’s really what people get to in this question, right? I want to know. 

Brandon McNaze:
He comes and he sends me a text message and says, do this tomorrow at this time. And sometimes there’s very specific things, and other times it’s like, step out in faith and go talk to that person. And so I told the youth, I said, this is a great time to experiment. If God says something like, hey, go pray for that person in the store. Go, go pray for the person, store. And they’re like, what if something bad happened? No, like, the person could laugh at you or say, hey, I don’t want you to pray for me, all that type of stuff. But just try to, like, if I have a nudge, like, maybe it’s in a church service. And I’m like, man, I should go pray for that person. Go pray for him. 

Brandon McNaze:
And then you start to, like, understand who he is more and more. And I’m still learning, like, I don’t know all the time, but I’ll step out. And I’m willing to look kind of silly in the process. 

Jeff Johnson:
You don’t think you’re courageous? You know, I think you’re pretty courageous. 

Brandon McNaze:
Well, I appreciate it. Appreciate it. 

Jeff Johnson:
All right. Thanks for being on. Yeah, I appreciate it. Amazing story and just getting started. So there’s a lot more to be told. 

Brandon McNaze:
I mean, there’s like four and a half million people now. It’s going to get set free. And so the team is like, where are we going next? And I was like, well, let’s. Let’s deal with this couple million people first, and then we’ll go to the next place. But, yeah, that’s good. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email info@CrossroadsApologetics.com or Info@crossroadsApologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.