Drew Forsberg Part 2 – Strength Under Control: Lessons in Courage from a Navy SEAL

Drew Forsberg, a retired Navy SEAL and seasoned leadership strategist, joins The Courageous Crossroads for his second appearance, bringing his unique perspective on courage, leadership, and personal accountability. With years of experience in high-stakes environments and a deep understanding of team dynamics, Drew shares actionable insights into how courage can be cultivated and spread in our personal lives and society at large. In this thought-provoking
episode, Drew explores the contagious nature of courage, the critical role of personal ownership, and the importance of standing firm in faith and conviction. Drawing on Biblical examples and his military background, he illustrates how true courage involves taking risks for a greater good while maintaining strength under control. Whether discussing modern societal challenges, the dynamics of family leadership, or the transformative power of faith, Drew’s wisdom offers listeners inspiration and practical takeaways to face their own crossroads with bravery.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. I apologize for my stuffy nose goodness. I’m living in Iowa, and so this happens sometimes you get a little bit of a stuffy nose and anyway, sorry to be recording with this kind of a voice, but enough of that. You’re going to be excited with our next guest, who is a return guest. Drew Forsberg, retired Navy seal, comes back a second time to share with you all on the topic of courage, and he’s got a lot to say. He talks about courage being contagious. He mentioned that the first time he was on. And he goes a little bit deeper into that topic as well. He also talks about bravery involved in taking personal responsibility, whether it’s parenting or homeschooling or questioning medical advice. 

Jeff Johnson:
He talks about stepping away from societal norms to make independent decisions, and he does that in a very beautiful way. He also talks about biblical courage as a model for everyday life, which is powerful. And he talks about the role of courage in leadership and team dynamics, especially drawing on his experience as a Navy seal. And he talks about how courage requires action, not just resistance. To be proactive, not just to resist something. Anyway, you’re gonna thoroughly enjoy this second episode of Drew Forsberg. And like I said, I’m sitting in Iowa, so it’s a little bit chilly. And although I love my state, I love where I’m from. Wouldn’t live anyplace else. Drew is in Hawaii, and that sounds kind of nice, especially this time of year. So we start off with me checking in on how things are going in Hawaii. 

Jeff Johnson:
How’s everything going in Hawaii? 

Drew Forsberg:
I’d say. I’d say it’s great. I just got done with a little couple of traveling trips, and so I’m back in. In the promised land for a few more weeks. And then I got another. Another trip to do before Christmas. But between now and Thanksgiving, things are. Things are pretty good and calm, and I’m excited. 

Jeff Johnson:
Nice. Anything remarkable happen to you since the last time you and I spoke? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I think the same thing that’s probably happened to our whole country is everyone being really excited about the incoming changes, especially, like, as all of these new appointments start to get trickled out. I think there’s a lot of excitement just going that way. For me, personally, I was in California and did an event for pre.com and then stuck around for a couple extra days to go do an event over at Influence Church, one of the mega churches out there in Southern California, and then came back here for just less than a week and then went up to Houston for a Beyond the Brotherhood event. That’s one of the nonprofits that helps Navy SEALs in transition to get out into the civilian sector and kind of find their new purpose in life, as well as maintain a good sense of community. 

Drew Forsberg:
So that was cool to go down to Houston. It’s a city I’ve never been to. And then I also stayed a couple extra days to do an event for one of the big oil refinery cleaning places. So there’s oils, oil companies, oil refinery companies, and then the people that go and clean the refineries. So I got to stick around for that and just kind of get to know Houston a little bit more afterwards. So it was, all in all, a pretty good. Pretty good month since. Since I’ve seen you last. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, it’s wonderful to get to talk to you again, Drew. I really enjoyed our first chat, and I’m so tickled to get you back on the podcast so people can hear a little bit more from you on that topic of courage. You know, the thing that you mentioned, and I encourage everybody to go back and listen to the first podcast that we did, of course, but the thing that you mentioned there was the issue with the vaccine, and that was. That was kind of a political hot button issue back at the time. And so here we are now, post election. I am curious just to dive in a little bit more and. And know your mind about where you think the country’s headed now, what your opinion is after Donald Trump’s been elected and all of that. He’s made some. 

Jeff Johnson:
He’s made some suggestions for cabinet appointments, which are very interesting. You know, people are. People are getting their feathers ruffled a little bit, and other people are excited, you know. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yep. Yeah, I’m very optimistic as I’m looking at all these things. You know, when were talking about courage being at a premium in America, what was that six weeks ago when we did this last? I think, like we said, courage is contagious. Well, now, because of the results of November 5th, I feel like a lot more people have that courage to stand up. I’m sure you’ve seen that meme where there’s a cartoon character of a guy with a whip, and there’s, like, you know, 30 people behind him that he’s whipping, and they’re all bowing the knee in a submission. And then one guy stands up, and he’s still whipping, and then six guys stand up, and he still got the whip. And then everybody stands up, and his whip is now limp and like, oh. Because now he’s outnumbered. 

Drew Forsberg:
It was just him and whip, and now everybody’s on board. And I feel like that’s happening across America. My brother lives out in East Hampton, New York, and one of the more liberal places where all the elites have their. Their big houses and everything else. And the kids out there, when seven and eight years old, when they’re playing basketball and they score a point, what are they doing? They’re doing the Trump dance. So we’re seeing that throughout all professional sports. We’re seeing at the big UFC events. And people, I think that courage is contagious. People are now more willing to stand up and say what they. What they’re really thinking. So I feel like that’s really exciting as we look forward. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then even, you know, with some of these appointments, RFK is really pushing it to the mainstream of how corrupt our whole medical system has been, our food supply system, and all of these other things. So I feel like a lot more people are going to be able to question freely and have some more questions for those doctors when they’re like, oh, I want to prescribe you this med. Well, what. What are all the side effects of that again? And, oh, we want your kids to have all these other shots. Well, why do they really need that? Is that really necessary for herd immunity? Or is that really necessary so that you can get a kickback for having 100% shot rates on all your patients? 

Drew Forsberg:
So I feel like we’re about to enter a new America where a lot more people are going to be free to speak their mind and question the authorities. 

Jeff Johnson:
I was fascinated. I mean, I’m not oblivious to all of it. I’ve been paying attention to it, and I certainly have my opinions. But I did not know when RFK Jr. Was responding to our diet in America. He made some comment about how Froot Loops in America have, like, 19 different ingredients or 17 different ingredients. And he said, if you go to Canada, they’ve got five or something like that. It was a dramatic difference. And they’re still Fruit loops. But make America healthy again, Drew, who doesn’t want to get behind that? 

Drew Forsberg:
Because we’re like, no, you’re not eating cereal. No, we can’t have this. Look, red dye 40 and red yellow five. And my kids, some of them can barely read. They can read that and they’re like, no, I’m not having it. I’m not eating M and Ms. Anymore. So they’ve been kicking that stuff off for a while. And to know that, oh, look at that, Europe has stuff that doesn’t have all of these chemicals. And now with this new administration, maybe you guys can have cereal again every once in a while. They’re excited. Yeah, Fruit Loops might be on the right, might be on the grocery list again. That’s exciting for them. I mean, I’m not kidding. We were like in tears. Like we might have a new golden era for America. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow. What are your As a retired Navy seal, Drew, what are your Navy SEAL friends think about this election? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, it depends on if you’re enlisted or you’re an officer. Your officers are more howdy faced about this whole thing because they’re still looking for their cushy jobs in the military industrial complex when they retire. I was talking to a senior enlisted leader recently and he said walking around the office on November 6th was so funny and fun for him because of all the mopey faces from all the bureaucrats that work there, as well as the senior really officers, both SEALs and non SEALs, who are all distressed because they know that there is a reckoning coming on the Department of Defense and maybe there’s a whole lot of cheese that needs to go away. So that’s why I’m kind of excited about it now. The enlisted guys are. They’re patriotic, red blooded Americans and they want America to be great again. 

Drew Forsberg:
So if it means reorienting some of our missions from overseas wars thousands of miles away that don’t actually have an impact America or doing something that might be a little bit more tangible like enforcing our border, I think guys are really excited, especially the enlisted types. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you have an opinion on Pete Hegseth? 

Drew Forsberg:
It’s completely outside the box of what we normally see for a Secretary of Defense. And so I’m excited about that. I’ve seen some clips of him on the Sean Ryan podcast. It’s kind of a my things to listen to is to listen to the entire thing. It almost seems like that was his interview for the SecDef position. And I’m really excited about all of that, especially that coupled with this Department of Government efficiency and seeing where we can cut all kinds of spending. Because my last five years dealing with the government bureaucracy inside the military has Been nauseating to say at best, I cannot believe how little we can get done because of so many bureaucrats that have inserted themselves into the process. And the question remains, do they even really have a need for them there? 

Drew Forsberg:
And even as Musk and Vivek talk about, when you have all of these people that show up to work and they need to justify their existence, they’re going to insert themselves into the process unjustifiably, unwarranted. And so you can’t get as many things done as you wanted to, and you certainly won’t get them done as quickly because of all of these bureaucrats that have inserted themselves along the way. And this goes on not just training stateside, but also like on our deployments. We’d have missions that would have to go up and they’d have to get checked off by all these other people. And when I say checked off, there was a button that was just simply like concur or non concur, but it still moves on. 

Drew Forsberg:
But until they concur or non concur, until they click that button, the mission doesn’t get lifted up to the next level. So we had a whole host of like lawyers and other people that just wanted to have more questions asked and therefore would gum up the process. So we couldn’t get missions accomplished in a timely manner because of all these people that inserted themselves in the process. And so unless you had, I think. 

Jeff Johnson:
It wasn’t because they weren’t for the mission. It was just the nature of the bureaucracy, just took too much. 

Drew Forsberg:
The nature of the bureaucracy. And so the only way that you could circumvent it is if you had a very proactive war fighting commander who was like, I don’t care about what the government bureaucrats or these JAG lawyers say, you guys, your job is to put it yellow or green and move on. Not. You can’t leave it grayed out and ask these other guys questions if they have questions, if you have questions, then you need to tell me to ask them. But you don’t get to insert yourself as a decision maker here. You were just a simply look it over and pass it on. And so without those kinds of war fighting commanders putting the bureaucrats or these JAG lawyers in place, then this would continuously gum up the entire process. 

Drew Forsberg:
And that goes for anything from a simple purchase of a bunch of jackets or hats or some training for some mixed martial arts stuff or getting bullets. We have this throughout the entire Defense Department. And so all these leftists 20 years ago that were like there’s too much pork in the government, in the Defense Department. They have too much money. They spend too much money. We do, we do. On salaries of government servants, GS positions that insert themselves in the process. And so this is why the DoD has been so inefficient for all these years. Turns out the leftists were right. There’s too much pork, there’s too much spending. And if we can cut a lot of that, we’ll probably be way more efficient. 

Jeff Johnson:
I shouldn’t even ask it. Do you think they’ll be successful? I mean that’s a massive animal to try to wrangle, Drew. Which is way better than I would. 

Drew Forsberg:
I guess maybe I just have too much optimism. But when I see genius level guys like Elon Musk. Yes, I’m on board. Vivek Wrench, Lami. Yes, I’m on board. We’re going to cut all of this. Who doesn’t care about what the status quo has been in the military and in fact wants to erase all kinds of status quo’s regarding the military industrial complex. I feel like that’s a good recipe for success. And then add on there with Tulsi Gabbard being in charge of the Department of National Intelligence. What a great position for that. Being that she’s an American serviceman servicewoman who has been serving for all of these years, rose to a lieutenant colonel rank and a sitting member of Congress who was spied on by her own country. Now she’s in charge of all of those intelligence agencies. That’s, that’s perfect. 

Drew Forsberg:
I can’t wait to get rid of this tyranny that we’ve been really living under. Most people just never realized it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow. Can I ask you about the Ukraine stuff that’s going on? I’m really curious what your opinion of that would be that what’s recently happened, how we have kind of green lighted lobbing missiles into Russia and in full disclosure, Drew, I know nothing about what I’m talking about other than what I’m fed on the Internet. So I barely should be able to talk about this. But I’m curious. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, only from a wave top perspective and we’re coming from of the current administration still has two months to make something happen where that will stop us from making America great again. So starting US World War III I think is totally on the docket of options that they would love to just use anything to stop America from reaching its true potential. So if they’ve got two months to start World War III I wouldn’t put it past them. 

Jeff Johnson:
What is the objective of that? Is it money or is it power, or is it ethos? You know, is it just their opinion of what should be going on? 

Drew Forsberg:
I’m going to say a mix of all. All of those. I mean, globalism goes down the tubes. If America becomes great again and nationalism becomes the norm across all nations. If every. If Brazil is looking out for the best of Brazil and South Africa is looking for the best of Africa and so is Russia and America, then we can come to the table and. And trade and barter because we’re looking out for our best interest. But if globalism is the interest, well, now we’re both compromising for this. Some sort of, like, New World order ideology. And so with Ukraine going away and with globalism going away, then the deep state, in my opinion, has everything to lose. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I heard from Christian friends of mine in South Africa and Christian friends of mine in Nigeria right after the election that they were overjoyed and their communities were overjoyed that Trump had been elected because they see Trump as being somebody who defends not just Christianity, but all faiths, but really defending Christianity. And they say that, you know, you’ve heard it said before. If America gets a cold, you know, Nigeria, for example, gets the flu, you know, it has a very profound effect. And so when. When our country does better, those countries do better as well. It’s almost like there’s a watchdog out there or something. So it was amazing to me to hear, you know, so quickly from these people. Man, this is a great result for us over here in South Africa. We’re so happy. Do you see the same thing, too? 

Drew Forsberg:
I do, yeah. I think this is. This could be a really new era for the world in general. I’m very. I’m very optimistic. I still will not be surprised if in the next couple months there’s some sort of dark turn of events, but I feel at the other end of this will come out very victorious and. And we’ll reach that kind of golden era. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, this is good. Well, we’ve been talking about a little bit of courageous stuff already, Drew, but let’s. Let’s move deeper into the subject. The last time we got to visit with you, the. The listeners got to hear about your pedigree and your background and your surfing enthusiasm and what led you into the military and then straight into the Navy SEAL program and a little bit about your experience there. But then the most courageous thing that you talked about was standing up to the vaccine mandate, which was very profound. Since you and I had a chance to visit back then. Has anything else come to mind on the topic of courage that you’d like to vet or something that you think that would be a value to the listeners? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I think back to your question that you had was, is courage a premium in America? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I think that’s the one that I was really questioning since our last meeting. And try to answer that a little bit more thoroughly, because I feel like it. It was at a premium. And now because courage is contagious, I feel like there’s a whole lot more that’s happening like that meme that we talked about. So, for instance, decades ago, homeschooling took a lot of courage. There was only like a few thousand. And slowly, over the decades, it became more and more popular. But that takes a lot of courage because, you know, like I said, courage would be doing something with a very great high risk for altruistic motives, meaning, like, it’s just the right thing to do. And I don’t care what the risk is. I might fail, but it’s worth it. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so those homeschooling families that kind of pioneered this space decades ago were kind of looked at like you’re crazy, because the status quo was, you send your kids to school, private school, public school, whatever the case is, but outsource it to whomever for eight hours a day. And these guys were like, no, I’m going to make sure that my kids do it differently. And then they have to go against all of these narratives of, well, the homeschool cures are weird. You know, they don’t get socialized and all of these other things. Well, through the decades, it’s grown more and more. Covid certainly pushed a lot of people into exploring the homeschool space. And now we’ve got the president elect talking about tax deductions and tax credits for that. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so I think a lot more people are going to be jumping into that, but it still takes a lot of courage. Because why? Because at the end of the day, you are taking ownership of it all. If it goes south, if you’re homeschooling and your kid, you know, doesn’t do well and he is socially awkward or he can’t read and doesn’t do well on all these placement tests, that’s your fault. You can’t blame the teachers, you can’t blame the school system, you can’t blame the district that your kid has to go to school. You have to take full ownership of that. And so this is where I think there’s still plenty of opportunity for people to exude courage in this current era in America. And while it’s at a premium, it’s also very contagious because more people are doing it. 

Drew Forsberg:
More people are questioning doctors on what’s good for their kids health, what’s good for their personal health. Should I take these white pills with all of these side effects or do I exude some courage here and try to find out what kind of natural paths naturopathic remedies are out there? Where do I discover that long form podcasts, social media, you know, those people that were ostracized for decades as quacks by the mainstream medical. Now, you can’t blame the doctors if you’re like, I’m going to take ownership of my own health. I can’t blame it on, oh, this doctor was bad. And well, this is what the doctor said. So I just followed them and I still have this weird goiter and that went away. But now I’ve got, you know, these hemorrhoids or whatever the case is and these side effects. Right? 

Drew Forsberg:
You can’t, you can’t blame the doctor and the pharmaceutical companies. You’re going to take ownership of it all. So this is where I feel like it’s still at a premium. But again, it’s more and more contagious because more information is being shared out between X and other social media things as well as these long form podcasts of all these people that are willing to question the status quo of everything. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you’d be, you’d probably be encouraging all of our listeners right now to do that. Just to stand up, you know, to stand firm for the things that you believe in. Don’t just be lemmings and follow along, you know, jumping off the cliff just because the guy next to you is doing it. You know, say no, this doesn’t feel right. That’s what I hear you saying. 

Drew Forsberg:
Absolutely. And then on the flip side, well, don’t just go and say no because it doesn’t feel right because I said so and become a lemming after me. There’s still a whole lot of ownership that needs to go on because you know what? There are some homeschool kids that are weird. There are some homeschool kids that are not educated. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Drew Forsberg:
There’s a whole lot of other stuff out there that people can just follow along with and they’re not taking full ownership of it. Like, all right, if it doesn’t work out, it’s My fault. So you need to think about all the different ripple effects if we do this. There’s a whole lot more things that I need to continue to investigate. Whether it’s making sure that my kid’s not socially weird, making sure that there’s all these other vitamins that are still brought into my system. Because I’m going to be not following the doctor, I’m going to be following this lady on Instagram because she seems like having some positive effects. Taking full ownership of everything is still incredibly important. And it’s not just, oh, I want to question it and say, no. 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, now there’s a whole lot of follow on action that everybody needs to go forth with. 

Jeff Johnson:
And along those lines, I think the scrutiny piece should not be demonized and should not be looked at as. Unless you’re doing it just to be obtuse, you know, unless you’re just scrutinizing just to be, you know, a jerk about it. But like you said, you know, you need to be open minded. But I feel like we’re coming, I hope, please, Lord, I feel like we’re coming out of a season where even scrutinizing and asking the question has been deemed somehow offensive. You know, everybody’s so upset about, you know, questioning whether or not I should take this pill or not. I remember years ago I did some flying and one of the rules of being a private pilot is ultimately avoiding the other aircraft is your responsibility. 

Jeff Johnson:
I don’t care what the radar is saying or what the tower is telling you or all that sort of thing. At the end of the day, the responsibility is your eyes and how you’re controlling that aircraft to not hit the other one and to not crash the plane. And so I think we need to embrace and maybe that’s the courageous step here that we all encourage each other to embrace is to be our own best advocate in all of these regards. You know, be your own best advocate for your health. Be the own, your own best advocate for your kids education, your own best advocate for, you know, what kind of things that you’re internalizing that you see on the media. Go ahead and push back and ask questions. The Bible tells us to do that. 

Jeff Johnson:
We’re supposed to, you know, fuss with it and push back on it and find our answers that way, you know? 

Drew Forsberg:
Right. Yeah, My wife gets these kind of questions when she’ll go and visit the doctors and she has questions and people will ask her, like, well, are you a nurse? Like, where are you getting all this information? Because why? Because she seems really educated. Well, she just did her own research. And, you know, for. For years, that was, like, deemed as, like, well, you’re not certified, so therefore, you’re not qualified to do any research. And that’s. That’s part of it. Don’t be intimidated by these certifications. You know, okay, you’re not a certified teacher. That doesn’t matter. You can still look out and ask questions about what’s best for your child. You’re not a certified nurse or doctor. That’s okay. You can still do your own research, and you can still ask questions on the benefit of your own health and your. And your child’s. 

Drew Forsberg:
So don’t be. Don’t be intimidated by the certifications and these narratives. And that’s going to take some courage. But being armed with the right questions and knowing what you know and not being intimidated by, oh, I’ve got an MD at the end of my name. You should just listen to me. Trust the science. Well, no, I’m not going to. Obviously, that didn’t work out a couple of years ago, so, no, I’m not. Not going to be intimidated. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Where else do you see the need for courage in our society right now? 

Drew Forsberg:
I mean, where else? That’s. That’s hard because it’s like everywhere. Everywhere needs to be. Needs to be more courageous. I, like. One thing that I have even thought about is taking the courage to drink raw milk. You know, for so many years, that’s been demonized as, oh, my goodness, you’re all going to die. Well, okay, well, why was raw milk even made illegal in the first place? Because of swill dairies, meaning unclean. And this is where they were getting the milk, and therefore people were getting sick. So in order to make sure that people don’t get sick now you need to pasteurize all the milk. Well, what about the swill conditions? In the first place, Maybe we should have started with the root cause of these confined animal feeding operations, because people have been consuming raw milk for thousands of years. Oh. 

Drew Forsberg:
But now the USDA is going to invade your space and take all of your equipment if you dare sell raw milk or make raw milk products. Okay, well, that’s completely straining in an act and swallowing a camel for our society. So there’s going to be a whole lot of courageous steps across the entire US Especially as we take control of our own health and accept that this status quo across the board is going to be different. Department of Education, Department of Defense, you name it. Everything is going to be a little Bit different. So this is where we’re going to kind of exude some courage and let the new system kind of take. Take form. 

Jeff Johnson:
So maybe you can talk about this a little bit. Drew, as a Navy seal, you know, obeying orders is. I would imagine, that’s paramount to what it is that you’re trying to accomplish, you know, on a certain mission or to meet a certain objective. But what we’re talking about now is the courage to disobey in a certain context and charter your own course. How do you. How do you decide how to do that? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, you know, I had that kind of open leadership with my guys would be like, all right, if we’re in, say, a training exercise, and we would practice these things where we get a contact from an enemy force during a patrol through the desert. Okay, so how are we going to respond to that? So we’re all going to address the contact. We’re going to lay down some fire, and I have to make a call. So I’m going to look at the terrain, because I’m the tactical leader, and I would have to say, all right, hey, everyone, shift right. And somebody might be tempted to be like, I don’t know what he’s thinking. We should be shifting left. There’s a better terrain feature over there. Well, not the time. I’m making a call, and we need to go with the call. So shift right. 

Drew Forsberg:
Later, we can talk about, hey, why did I decide to shift right? Did I see that piece of terrain to the left? Maybe. Maybe I could have made a better call. Or. Or I can explain to you what I saw to the right and why I made that call, and we can debrief it later. That seems to be fair. But in the meantime, right now, bullets are flying. So everyone just shut up and shift right, and just go with the call. But in other regards, there’s all. All these questions of, like, well, why would we set the department up this way for all the radios? Why do they all need to be labeled this way? Well, not because I said so. I’m open to ideas, and we can work together on this. 

Drew Forsberg:
I can explain to you why I think this is the best procedure, and you can tell me what your plan is, and maybe your plan’s better, and we can talk about all of these things and come to an agreement. And then at the end of the day, I’m the guy that’s in charge. And so I’m gonna have to say, well, this is the final decision, but we can invoke this kind of discussion in the Middle of it. That shouldn’t be foreboding. Same thing as, you know, husbands leading our wives. We need to lead our families, lead our homes. We. And that doesn’t mean we’re authoritarian dictators. And whatever I say goes. My wife always runs purchases by me for inside the house. These are the curtains we’re going to get. These are the new sheets she’s going to get. All right, well, let me. 

Drew Forsberg:
Let me look at it. And I feel better knowing that I’m the final decision maker, and I say yes. But really, at the end of the day, if she wanted to paint my entire house pink, and because this is her home, I’m probably going to go with it. I might ask a couple questions, like, hey, can we do something a little bit different? But at the end of the day, I am the leader. I am making the decision. But it’s still a discussion up until that point. And so I think that’s where we are as Americans of it’s okay to question what’s been happening. And now that we’ve. We’re a republic and we’ve elected new leaders to make some certain decisions, we’re going to kind of go along with that, and we’ll see how it pans out. 

Drew Forsberg:
And if we don’t like the way it’s going in four years, then we will unelect them, because this is how a republic works. 

Jeff Johnson:
I think that’s what makes America great, too, Drew, is we take that kind of initiative. My. My friend, author and theologian O.S. Guinness, says, you know, when he’s. I was at a luncheon with him one time, and he was talking about. It was in the UK and he was talking about the Brits, and he said, everybody is so polite and passive, and they don’t ever, you know, step out of order or anything like that. And he said, you Americans, though, if you find a good initiative that needs to be done, you just do it, you know? And it was that kind of idea of independence, and I think that’s a very courageous thing. You know, I love the story. 

Drew Forsberg:
I think it was one of the. The Prussian officers who got brought over for the American Independence war. And he was telling all the guys, like, okay, you’re going to carry your weapon like this over on the right shoulder, whatever the case is. And he’s marching and he’s telling them all this. And the American soldier, one of them was like, why? And he was so used to just being in Prussia and being like, this is what you will do. And everybody been like, okay, we’re Just going to do it. But the American wants to know why, and you better have a good reason why. And that’s especially true in the SEAL teams, which was, all right, you have a reason, you have an order, you have a decision, and we’re going to follow it. 

Drew Forsberg:
But if you don’t include me in on why, I’m probably not going to obey you for very long because I, I have a different idea. And if you didn’t even think about my concerns or my idea, or explain to me your idea and get me to buy in on the why, then I’m not fully invested. And I, I feel like that is what’s awesome about Americans, is that we want to know the why behind things. And if you can explain that to us, we’ll be 100% on board with you. But if not, if you’re just an elitist, like, because I said so, well, then we’re going to sabotage your efforts. It’s only a matter of time. And that’s especially true in the SEAL platoons. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. So say more about that. Especially true in the SEAL platoons. Is there a situation, an event, something come to mind? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, in the platoons, we’ve had lots of. You get the experience of having lots of different leadership. Every two years, you’re going to be in a new platoon or a new command, and you’re going to have new leaders that are in charge. And sometimes those leaders will be authoritarian, like, well, I’m the chief and this is what I said, so just do it. And we are immediately going to hate him for that. And so as you grow up in the teams, you’ll also, you’ll get a great picture of. All right, this is a good leader, and this is someone that I don’t want to follow and ever do things like that. So let me think. One of the good example of. I’m trying to think of a really good example of being explained a why we are going to change some. 

Jeff Johnson:
Things when you. 

Drew Forsberg:
A great one. 

Jeff Johnson:
Go ahead. Yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
Where we had trained, change one of our tactics where in the 90s and before, guys were very used to this thing called hostage rescue tactics, meaning, like, there’s a hostage in this house and we need to go and rescue it. And this sounds like a very Navy SEAL special OPERations type mission. So the priority is keeping that hostage alive and all recklessness be forgotten about because we have to do whatever it takes to keep that hostage alive and rescue them. So that would mean, like, running into this house, speed over Security. Speed is your security. The faster you get in there, the more likely that you’ll be able to at least retrieve the hostage, even if you die in the process. Like the end state is rescuing the hostage. Well, when Iraq and Afghanistan happen, we’re not rescuing hostages. 

Drew Forsberg:
We’re just going in to get bad guys. Well, we’re still using those same hostage rescue tactics where we’re just running into rooms. And we would play these games, force on force, meaning a guy with a gun inside shooting paint bullets, and we’re shooting paint bullets. And I remember as a new guy running into the room as fast as I can. And still getting just peppered with paint bullets. And, you know, for training purposes, it’s like, it doesn’t matter how much you get shot, you’re never going to die. Just keep going, right? But you’re. It’s. It’s a little good, tangible feedback, little pain to be like, oh, wow, I got shot. That would have been. If this was a real life mission and there was really a guy in there with a real gun, I’d be in a lot of trouble. 

Drew Forsberg:
So I remember asking our instructors, like, hey, what did I do wrong? And they’re like, well, you just got to move faster. And I’m thinking, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to outrun the speed of a bullet. I mean, none of us are Superman. We’re tough Navy seals, but we’re not Superman. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then we changed tactics in the. In, like, the 2006 era, where we began to stand outside the doors and do a lot more clearance from outside. Why? Because we’re not in a rush. We’re not in a rush to save a hostage. We can take our time inside the house and find the bad guy, but make sure that we don’t lose anybody in the middle, making sure that we don’t get guys shot, because up until then, guys had gotten shot by running into rooms across all the special operations forces. And so we began to kind of slow it down. And we realized a lot of these walls are bulletproof. You know, it’s not drywall like it is in the States. So these are mud huts that are fully bulletproof, so you can use that as a shield. And so that completely changed our tactics. 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, we had some old guys who were really good at doing the hostage rescue stuff, and it didn’t matter that they had gotten painted up and shot up by. By paint bullets in the years prior. So far, they hadn’t got shot by real bullets. So Therefore, it must work. And so we had a lot of resistance as were training them through getting ready for deployment, like, hey, we’re not going to do that anymore. We’re going to do this instead. And they would push back and like, well, this is stupid. And this is only going to make guys scared. And what have I been doing for the last 10, 15 years if it’s been wrong? Well, not that it was wrong. It just wasn’t the right place, right time, that kind of a tactic. 

Drew Forsberg:
So what we ended up needing to do was, number one, the rule is set. We will learn this. You have to go through this. And number two, we’re going to also put guys in there with guns, with bullets, paint bullets, and shoot at you. And unless you use the tactics that we’re teaching, you’re going to get a whole lot of paintballs on you. And instead of just saying, hey, just keep running and don’t worry about it, and think maybe next time you’ll just be faster. Now we’re going to put guys down and we’re going to see how many guys end up going down out of your platoon by just a couple of guys with guns waiting for you to run in a room. 

Drew Forsberg:
And after we do a couple of iterations of you just running into rooms and getting all shot with paint and feeling that pain, then we’ll teach you the other method and let you use that other method with those same amount of guys with guns in the room and see what happens. And so were able to kind of break through that mental paradigm for a lot of guys in order to shift their. Their point of view. Yeah, sometimes it’s, it’s. You got to learn the hard way, I guess. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Define again, courage. 

Drew Forsberg:
For me, I think perspective, I think it’s assuming a lot of risk for altruistic purposes, meaning there’s a greater good here. And I know that there’s a great risk if I do this course of action, but it’s worth it in the end because it’s the right thing to do. So, like the Medal of Honor winners, they at great risk, they could easily die. They don’t care because they’re going to do this in order to save someone’s life, usually one of their buddies. And it doesn’t matter how many enemy they kill on along the way, they get the Medal of Honor based on great personal risk in order to save someone else because it was the right thing to do. So that’s. I think that’s the definition of Courage for me. And that’s why like, you know, homeschoolers, they’re assuming a great personal risk. 

Drew Forsberg:
Their kids could be end up weird. Their kids end up, you know, self sufficient or not based on how much they’re willing to take on this risk and take ownership for that success. So that’s what I think all this courage is as well as parents that are like, all right, well the doctor says they need all these shots, but I’m going to take the personal risk and say no. I think my kids are going to be healthy enough that they don’t need it. That’s what I’d say is courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, well, follow me on this thread here because I’m really interested in what your talking about. I’ve heard you mention a couple of times this mindset about maybe we won’t come back. You know, you talked about that as being a seal. As long as the hostage is saved, that’s the most important thing. And it might cost us our life or something. Well, that’s a very biblical thing, you know, laying down your life for somebody else. Was that a primary mindset indoctrinated into you in the SEAL program? I mean, or did you come to the SEAL program with that understanding? Is that a taught thing or is that just a presupposed thing? 

Drew Forsberg:
You know, one of the things that we make sure that guys really understand is the importance of team. So our selection course is a lot different from a lot of others. And we had to have some people come in and say, well, I’m not really sure if it needs to be like this because what, why do you need to do it this way? And part of it was so that they could justify trying to push women through our course and change some of the standards. And we’re like, no, one of the things that is incredibly critical for us is running with these rubber boats on our heads. Not on your shoulder, on your head. And there’s about six of us, six to seven in a boat crew that have to carry and run with this boat on our head for miles. It is. 

Jeff Johnson:
I didn’t know that. You don’t put it up. Why do you put it on your head instead of your shoulder? It’s just harder. 

Drew Forsberg:
It’s harder. I mean, well, these are not zodiacs that weigh, you know, thousands of pounds. These are little rubber crafts that only weigh a couple hundred. And it is way faster to run with it on your head. So you bear the weight on your head and there’s three guys on each side running and it’s on your head and it’s super heavy. And you need to run kind of like erect with your back straight, with your head straight, shoulders back, and running with it on your head and bearing that weight. Because there’s other five other guys at a minimum that are also bearing that weight. And if you’re doing what’s called boat ducking, meaning, like, it hurts my head really bad so I’m gonna duck my head down, well, then those other five guys are now carrying extra weight on their neck and their head. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so you understand that if you don’t pull your weight, then that’s the rest of the team suffering. So this idea of everything is about the team. And if I don’t carry my weight, then the other people in the team are suffering is ingrained literally in day one of SEAL training with buds. Same thing with the log. If I’m not carrying my weight on this, you know, big telephone pole all the way across, well, then those other five guys are, oh, well, my arms hurt. So you’ll see guys like kind of put their hands down and it’s like they’re giving their arms a break. They, they feel that they’re justified a break. Oh, but the other five guys in your boat crew aren’t suff train just like you are. 

Drew Forsberg:
And so as a BUDS instructor, when I worked some of these evolutions, that was like where I got, I saw it red like I wanted to kill people. I was so upset if I saw a guy ducking boat or not carrying their weight on the log. I’m a Christian by now, right. And I’ve already made it a resolution that I’m not going to be cussing no more F bombs. For me, when I saw someone ducking boat, it was like everything I could do in my body and soul contain just F bombs from flying out. I would get so mad. So you understand that it’s all about your boat crew and your buddies and those that don’t, that aren’t on board with this, those that are boat duckers will usually tell the rest of the boat crew like, hey, man, he’s not pulling his weight. 

Drew Forsberg:
Run and get him out of the boat crew so that he can’t keep up. Or we’ll just, you know, I’ll, the instructor staff will pinpoint them and pinpoint them enough to get them to quit. Because we don’t want those guys in your boat crew. We don’t want them in the SEAL teams. 

Jeff Johnson:
So that’s in. So that Idea of selflessness then is indoctrinated from that perspective, from it’s all about the team, and it’s all about thinking of the other person or thinking of the group ahead of yourself 100%. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then you learn very early, it goes, team gear, then your gear, then you. So when even now with my kids, they hear it all the time, like, we get back from the beach, hey, team gear first. You’re not going and grabbing some snacks. You’re not rinsing yourself off. You’re going and unloading all the surfboards and hanging up all the towels. And team gear first. Then your gear, then you can put your surfboard away, then you can put your hang your personal swimsuit out, then you can go get a snack because that’s how it’s been ingrained for all of us. Team gear first. 

Drew Forsberg:
And if somebody is like, goes and does something where they went and, like, got dried off after a nighttime over the horizon, boat evolution training piece, and somebody comes in and goes and gets themselves dry while everyone else is, like, rinsing off the boat, you can bet right away that guys are not going to let him ever live that down. Right. Because that’s been so ingrained to us from day one. Team gear, then your gear, then you. Team gear first. It’s always about you have to bear everyone’s burden for the entire team to succeed. And so that’s why Bud’s training is the way it is. That’s why we carry, you know, heavy rubber boats on our heads. This is why you do log pt, because everybody needs to know it’s all about the team first. 

Jeff Johnson:
See, I wish I never would have heard that from you, Drew. I’m 57 years old. My youngest is 19. He’s going to be 20 here in a couple of days. And My oldest is 26. I got four kids, and now I’m finding myself lacking as a father. That’s so fantastic that you teach them that. It’s the team first. I mean, that’s a beautiful concept. You know, it’s about the family. It’s about being selfless. And I see a whole lot of courage in that. So that’s followed you all throughout the rest of your life, I would imagine. I mean, just what you described there. 

Drew Forsberg:
Absolutely. Yep. 

Jeff Johnson:
So it’s more about the group. Gosh. What else about. What else about courage? Where else do you see it? Where else do you find it? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, I mean, I. This is why I love the Bible, is because there are so many examples of great courage. I mean, David and Goliath, everyone knows that one. That, of course, that takes great courage. That was a great personal risk to himself, but it was for the greater good, because how dare this uncircumcised Philistine, you know, defy the living God? Of course, everyone knows Daniel in the lion’s den. All right, well, that obviously took great courage, because I’m going to pray. I don’t care what the law is. And if that ends up with me and alliance, then no big deal. But then, like Gideon, I think about him and that, yeah, he ra. He got 300 guys to kill a hundred thousand Midianites. 

Drew Forsberg:
But before all of that, in Judges, chapter six, he’s there, gets a word from the Lord that, hey, your dad’s altar to BAAL needs to get completely destroyed. And so he was like, all right, I’ll do it. He. I mean, he puts out a couple things like, can you really verify this is really you? But at the end of the day, he goes and does it because it’s the right thing to do. And, you know, he grabs 10 servants and they go out and they. They destroy it at night. Okay, does that take courage? Well, he could have done it during the day when everybody would have seen him, but it still took great courage for him to do it at all, because the next day, he wasn’t fooling anybody. Everybody knew that Gideon did it, and. 

Drew Forsberg:
And then his dad took the great courage of saying, hey, you know what? Yeah, my dad, my son did do the right thing. He did destroy my altar, and he took full ownership, and he was like, and by the way, if Baal’s really a God, well, then he should stick up for himself. He doesn’t need you nerds to do it. So, you know, there’s all these other great examples of courage. Benaiah, I think about, you know, as we’re talking about the current administration coming in. Benaiah knows that Joab is a great general, a great leader. He’s been following him for years. But when Solomon becomes king, Benaiah has to go and kill his old friend. Why? Because his old friend, turns out, was never doing this for the Lord, was never doing this to make Israel great. 

Drew Forsberg:
He was doing it for his own personal greatness. Joab, we could say, had a lot of courage being the first one to go up the sewer pipe at Jebus, which became Jerusalem. But really, why was he doing it? Because David was putting his job up. Up on the. Up for offer. Hey, the first guy up is going to be my general. Well, Joab was already general, so Joab’s like, fine, I’ll re earn my position. But was it because he wanted to take Jerusalem and make it great for. For David’s sake, or was it because he wanted to keep being the general? You know, who knows? But I think there’s all of these little things that we can see inside the Bible, especially with Old Testament warriorship, where we see a lot of courage, exuded meaning. 

Drew Forsberg:
I know what the risk is, but I’m going to do it anyway because it’s the right thing. And then some of those guys, you can look back and say, okay, based on these other character issues, did they really do it for courage, or did they do it for own personal gain? And this is where I think it’s really fun looking at. Looking at the Bible for these examples. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s fantastic. 

Drew Forsberg:
Favorite one is even like, Naboth in his vineyard, right When Ahab came and said, hey, I want to buy this. Name your price. And Naboth was like, I’m not selling. I mean, you know, it’s like kind of talking to the mafia. I mean, like, you know, I’m gonna give you a price that you can’t refuse kind of a thing. And. And I was like, I don’t care that you’re the king. I don’t care that you’re married to the most wicked queen that we’ve ever had. I’m going to say no, because it’s the right thing. This has been given to my family for generations, and I’m not going to let you take my vineyard and turn it into a vegetable garden. And. And he lost his head for it, but it was the right thing to do. 

Drew Forsberg:
So it was still a lot of great courage because he knew what he was facing, but it was still the right thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
Is that what you do to maintain your courage? I mean, is it scripture? Do you feel like that’s where it’s coming from? Or how do you. Or do you feel like you just have it in you and it’s been instilled a long time ago, or because you’re. You’re knowledgeable about the. About the Word? 

Drew Forsberg:
I would say all of courage really gets reinforced as you read scripture. One. One example of another just kind of like reinforces of what is the right thing to do and why should you do it? You know me, Shadrach, and a minute ago, more I meditated on that was, all right, well, you’ve got a whole lot of Israelites that were pushed into Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and that exile. But only three of them stood up against the. Again, against worshiping that idol, only three. Everyone else bowed the knee and were like, well, it’s okay. We’ll just go along with it. God knows my heart. And just kind of like a lot of Christians. I feel like even in the COVID pandemic, which was like, oh, the Navy said not to go to church. I guess I won’t go to church. Or even non Navy personnel. 

Drew Forsberg:
Oh, the governor said, we’re going to keep the door shut. And pastors were going along with this. They were letting Pharaoh decide how they were going to worship. Well, if you look back to Moses, you know, Moses wasn’t accepting any of Pharaoh’s compromises. No, it’s all or nothing. And so this is where I just think Scripture should be, the reinforcement of courage, because there’s just countless example after example of guys that do the right thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
Very well said. I completely agree with you, Drew. My mentor always tells me my only responsibility is to the truth, you know, to the truth of scripture and to God’s truth. That’s for sure. And, yeah, it’s like the 11th commandment in Christianity, thou shalt be polite. And it’s not in there. You know. 

Drew Forsberg:
There’S a whole lot of be strong and be of good courage. There’s a whole lot of those in there. 

Jeff Johnson:
These are tough guys in the Bible. These are not way fish people that stand up. And it’s out of a. It’s out of a real reverence and a healthy godly fear, for sure, that people are doing this. So. Wow, when did that first go ahead? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, you know, and then when we come into the New Testament Christianity, when we talk about, like, courage. Well, I think what Paul did took a lot of courage, and not just like all the great missions that he went on, but in the very beginning, taking full ownership of the fact that he was the guy who made all of these huge mistakes, that he was chasing and persecuting Christians. There is blood on his hands for the death of Christians. And he took full ownership over and over again as he gave his testimony. Like, yeah, I’m the guy. I did that. And I was wrong. And this is where I’m kind of, like, optimistic for the coming America, is that there’s a whole lot of people who made some bad mistakes, and they can take ownership. 

Drew Forsberg:
They can show some courage like Paul did, and say, I’m sorry, I did the complete wrong thing, and then become a champion of the new cause. Paul didn’t just go and like, hey, my bad, I’m sorry, I was wrong, and then hang out in Tarsus and never come out again. You know, he came out and was even a more advocate for the faith than ever. And so this is even where I’m optimistic for the Defense Department and all those senior officers who made horrible mistakes. I still think they should retire and leave military service. 

Drew Forsberg:
But they can still champion the fact that all of these DEI initiatives or Covid mandates and all these endless wars that they were put on in order to reflect ekia, instead of actually making Afghanistan or Iraq safer, they can take ownership of it and talk about how messed up it all was. But that doesn’t mean they get to stay in the military either. But nevertheless, I think they can be restored that way and not looked at as the great generals and senior officers who really wasted American blood and treasure. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. You know, we see the revivals, the history revivals. It occurs when there’s collective groups of people that repent of their sins and cry out to God, just like it talks about in the scriptures. But we’ve seen that happen before. I mean, you saw that happen on a college campus down south not that long ago, where there’s collectively a group of people that come and say, forgive us, Lord, and wham, here comes the whole Holy Spirit. And then everything changes. And it’s absolutely remarkable. So that would be. And everybody wins, of course, to the glory of God. When that happened, when we all do that collectively. So that would be a. That would be a prayer target for sure for this coming age. Let’s hope that we can say that. 

Drew Forsberg:
I mean, Josiah came in as Manasseh’s grandson. And Manasseh, of course, was like the worst king that Judah ever had and got in all kinds of trouble. But Manasseh finally did repent, and it seems like his son didn’t get it. But he was around the time where his grandson Josiah might have heard and looked up to his grandpa, who’s now out of prison and could talk about all the stupid things that he did and how he didn’t glorify the Lord. And now Josiah becomes king at eight. And what does Josiah’s reign and his kingdom look like? It looks like draining the swamp. I mean, he was like, get rid of those whose bones are over there. Yeah, dig them up and burn them. Throw them over there. Oh, wait, we found a letter of the law. Oh, my goodness. 

Drew Forsberg:
Lord, we need to do better. Hey, we need to reinstitute the Passover. I mean, he did like one thing after another. 

Jeff Johnson:
Radical, yes. 

Drew Forsberg:
Reigning the swamp, completely radical. It didn’t last long. I mean, by his grandson’s age, you know, they were back in. And they were thrown in exile with Nebuchadnezzar. But nevertheless, Josiah really got a. A whole new era and revival inside of his country while he was in charge. And that’s what I’m kind of excited for. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, well, that’s all the second law of thermodynamics, that entropy, everything redounds to chaos. But that’s why we need the Lord to bring us back, you know, together again. Have you ever read this is on the Topic of Courage. Have you ever read Jonathan Edwards famous sermon, the Sinner in the hands of angry God? 

Drew Forsberg:
I have not personally read it. I’ve heard it preached about many times through my time as a Christian, but apparently I need to put on my reading list. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, for the listeners, this is the most, some people would argue the most famous sermon ever given. And it was given out east by this famous theologian, Jonathan Edwards, who’s a Puritan guy. And I promise you, all these Puritan pastors way back when are smarter than every single one of us. I mean, these guys were completely and absolutely committed. And he was so stressed out about what was going on in his community with the people that were in the pews sitting in front of him, that he had the courage to climb up into the pulpit and lay it out. And he was. I mean, I don’t presume to quote it, but if you listen to it audibly, it’s about 45 minutes long. And I listened to it many, many times. 

Jeff Johnson:
And I think the church ran him out after he gave this sermon because they were so appalled at what he had said, but he had the courage to stand up there and tell him because his heart was breaking for what he saw going on in his church. And of course, he was right on. Of course. He talked about how your sins are so egregious, you’re like walking across a rickety bridge over a pool of sulfur, and the only thing that keeps God from dropping you into that is, you know, blah, blah, blah. I mean, on and on. He talks about how if you really knew how bad hell was, you wouldn’t wish it on your worst enemy. And it’s very descriptive, but it takes courage to speak that. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, it’s a colloquialism now, speaking truth to power, but it takes great courage to speak that kind of truth in an audience of people that are just wanting to be happy. And you’ve got that, Drew. I mean, you seem. You strike me as Jonathan Edwards kind of a person with what you did with the vaccines, for sure. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah, we’ll see if there’s a. If there’s a reckoning on all those people. But I definitely. I don’t mind preaching to saying truth to power and to include even in, you know, my own stripe. You know, I know there’s. There’s lots of different churches out there. We all kind of have our own flavor of ice cream that we’re all kind of in. I think, you know, as long as we’re all agreed that. That the finished work of Christ happened at Calvary and it’s finished, then that’s a pretty good starting point. But from there, a lot of us kind of branch off into these different little things. And even inside of my stripe, I don’t mind, you know, saying what’s. What’s wrong with us to those that are in charge of it, so to speak. Yeah, you include especially biblical warriorship. 

Drew Forsberg:
And I feel like that’s probably the most lacking thing throughout most all churches is that we don’t really talk much about how men ought to be men. We’re still kind of like apologizing for chauvinism or whatever the latest term is that the DEI people pick up and make us almost like, embarrassed to be the leaders of our home. I don’t think we need to lead our homes with apology. I think we just need to stand up and lead. And we also need to let our young men know, those teenagers, that this is the way, you know, the other way out there. I mean, look at, look it up. All the different times in the Bible, the way is called, and that’s the way of following the Lord the other way, the way of the world. There’s nothing for you out there. 

Drew Forsberg:
But if we don’t. If they don’t see that it’s a good, solid, manly man leading a beautiful home with obedient children and a beautiful wife, then why would they want sustain Christianity if it doesn’t look like, you know, leave it to Beaver, then. Then they don’t want it. And I think this is where we’ve kind of like, adopted too much of, like, the Simpsons mentality of Doofy, dad and all knowing mom and the kids kind of run the house. But that’s not what. What American Christianity should be. And I think we just need to focus a lot more on biblical warriorship. Got boys being boys wrestling boys, understanding how to, you Know, be men, and lead is critical. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I got a few questions here for you. Can. Can you stick around just for a little bit longer? Drew, this is fantastic. Along those lines, let me preface it by saying this. My wife, Danielle and I view our marriage as we complement each other. And you always have to be careful with the language because there’s this complementarianism and all this other kind of stuff that flies around. But let me just use the very simple word. We complement each other. She has tremendous skills, and I’ve got the skills that I bring to the family. But in the general sense, we view it as our family is a field, and there’s a fence around the field. And my job as the husband is the governor. I’m to keep the snakes out of the garden. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m to protect and provide, make sure that the crops are cultivated and all of that kind of stuff. My job and the oversight and the governor, you know, that sort of thing. And Danielle’s job is the influencer. You know, she maintains the temperature and kind of the emotional intelligence inside of our. Inside of our field, and she’s the nurturer, and she’s all that sort of thing. Now, because we’re unique, she’s the only Danielle that God ever made, and I’m the only Jeff that. That God ever made. We have our unique skill sets. For example, I can turn my GPS on and go from point A to point B all day long. But I promise you, Danielle knows a faster way to get there. She knows a faster way to get from A to B than I do. 

Jeff Johnson:
She’s just good about that sort of thing. But that’s the way we. We work, and it works very well, is I’m the governor, and she’s the influence. She’s the temperature inside of the. I almost want to get there by asking you a question about what’s come up in the news about women in the military. You know, that’s become another hot button issue with Pete Hegseth’s nomination, you know, and he’s got an opinion about no women in the military, that sort of thing. But you can go there if you want. But I’m curious what your opinion is, and I’d like to hear you talk a little bit more for our listeners about those. Those masculine and feminine roles, those roles that absolutely complement and fit together with each other, just like the Bible had intended. What’s your opinion about that? 

Drew Forsberg:
Well, like. Like marriage. You know, in the SEAL platoons, we have, like, the officer and the enlisted, and typically the senior officer of the platoon, like an O3 lieutenant captain type. He’s worried about up and out, staging assets, making sure that everything is big picture lined up. And then the enlisted guys, they deal with details. They, making sure that everybody is at the right time, right place, right uniform. They come up with a tactical plan. They know how to execute missions. They have more experience, so they’re in charge of that. Down and in detail level. Officers are dealing with up and out conceptual level. And I feel like that’s kind of a good take on it. Even inside of marriage, you know, the dad kind of being the officer and understanding, like, okay, this is the vision. This is where we’re going. 

Drew Forsberg:
But at the end of the day, mom is the keeper of the home, as the Bible says. So she’s kind of like down in the details of when the kids are waking up and when they’re brushing their teeth and making sure that all the other things happen. And as a, as the officer in charge, you can still kind of like, you still rubber stamp yes or no on the tactical plan and same thing inside the house, like, hey, sweetie. That doesn’t really fit with the vision that we have. Let’s, let’s change things. But generally speaking in the military, what I’ve noticed, especially in a combat unit with the platoons is you’ve got 16 depending on the number of SEALs in a platoon, but usually it’s about 16. If you threw a woman in there, well, now the entire social dynamic would completely change. 

Drew Forsberg:
Let’s just assume she can make it through buds. Now all of a sudden, it’s no longer a boys club. It’s no longer guys that can do and say things and just kind of trust each other and razz each other about certain things immediately. There, there’s now a woman in platoon. Even if a girl came and said hi and she was the intel, you know, support chick, guess what those guys are those eyes are on her. And if they’re single, they’re still looking at a young single lady that’s now available because she’s close to their unit, if you’re putting her in a platoon space, it’s going to be even more so. So now you’ve got friction because even if it’s the intel check, which has never happened. No. All right, well, now maybe a couple guys. 

Jeff Johnson:
Now what does that mean, the intel person? 

Drew Forsberg:
So this, let’s see, you’ve got a SEAL platoon that deploys and this are your 16 operator types. And then you’ve got support people that are sent over so maybe you have a communicator, somebody that is a specialist on the radios, someone else who works like your supply issues, somebody else who might be your builder. And then you might also have this a female type, or any one of those could be a female. But for instance, in this example, it’s the intel person, meaning, like, she gets the reports and tells you guys what. What the latest and greatest is, so you can use that to inform your tactical plan. So the intel check is now there, and she’s there to support you guys. Well, you’re going to come over and some guys are going to be interested. Why? 

Drew Forsberg:
Because now we’re deployed and there’s only so many females around, and guys are still kind of like. It’s just the way human nature is. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yep, yep. 

Drew Forsberg:
And what if. What if two of them like her? What if three of them like her? What if she’s a loose woman and doesn’t really have any scruples and she likes all the attention by all three guys? All right, now what now? Those three guys over here in the platoon are now infighting because there’s a woman involved. And this is where things get. Get messed up. All right, now let’s just say she’s got even closer access to the platoon because she’s actually a woman wearing a trident. Well, now the issues become that much worse. And this happens throughout the entire Navy and conventional units all across the board. The thing I think that saved the SEAL platoon so far is that no woman has made it past day one of SEAL training. So that’ll keep us kind of safe for the coming years. 

Drew Forsberg:
But all throughout the conventional military, the unit integrity is disrupted a lot when you have a woman in there, because guys and girls are going to be guys and girls, and it’s just natural what’s going to happen. And so that. That creates this kind of friction that. That was never inside America’s military 100 years ago when we won two World Wars. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. So now take that. That’s well said. Now take that and meld that into the godly picture of a husband and a wife and a man and a woman. And is there similarity there? Is there difference there? 

Drew Forsberg:
I mean, I think the main similarity is just that guys are hardwired to admire women, and girls are hardwired to want the affection of men. And so the perfect place for that to transpire is in a marriage. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s in the covenant of a marriage. That’s right. 

Drew Forsberg:
In the covenant of marriage. And the worst place for that to be is inside a military unit. That’s supposed to be focused on war fighting, and now they’re also focused on family drama. So, no, I wouldn’t recommend, you know, that two people are married inside of a war fighting unit. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. So see, it takes. 

Drew Forsberg:
Act married. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. And we live in a society where it takes a lot of courage for people like Pete Hegseth to come out and make that comment because all of a sudden, they’re lambasted and made fun of and people are aghast and. And that sort of thing. But yeah. 

Drew Forsberg:
Yeah. And me, let’s just be completely honest, what am I going to do if. If there was a woman in combat with me and there’s a guy that gets shot, I’m going to respond differently to him getting shot as I would a woman. I mean, now a woman, I’m supposed to care and provide for. For women. That’s how we’re hardwired. And so a buddy is my. My shooting buddy. He’s. He’s my partner. He’s my bro. But now there’s a woman, and I need to, you know, it’s gonna. It’s gonna affect me differently. And we all know that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, that’s right. Do you think we’re. Do you think we’re moving to a place where we got more courage in society? 

Drew Forsberg:
Yes. As more people stand up, I think courage is contagious and more people are going to be able to go with common sense. Up until now, we’ve been kind of screamed out by the Karens and the very vocal minority, and as we kind of get our position as the actual majority and understand that we now have the power that it’s okay to stand up for common sense. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. I mean, I hate to put it all back on the election of Donald Trump, but, you know, this Trump dance that you’re seeing all throughout the NFL and through these sporting events that you were talking about in the very beginning, that’s growing like a weed, Drew. I mean, people are, like, refreshed and. Yeah, that seems to be courage growing and growing. 

Drew Forsberg:
Absolutely. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, you’ve been a blessing to our audience once again, Drew. Any other final thoughts you want to share on courage? And can I boldly ask you if I can get you to come back on again? It’s your second time, so can we get a third? 

Drew Forsberg:
Sure, no problem. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Drew Forsberg:
I’ll leave you with, you know the term meekness. You know, M E E K. It sounds like the term weak W e A K, but they’re not related at all. And I feel like that’s where a Lot of American societies kind of missed who Jesus is because it’s Jesus, meek and mild. Well, meek is strength under control. The first time that we see the term meek m e e k being used is for Moses in numbers when he’s dealing with a whole lot of drama. This same Moses, the most meek man that ever was. The same Moses, you know, who, what, killed a guy and buried his body in the sand. The same Moses that brought all the plagues on Egypt. The same Moses that has God in his basically on his side. All right, that’s strength under control. 

Drew Forsberg:
Moses wasn’t like, exuding all of this and just being like, you need to listen to me because I’m the most powerful and I could kill you with one, you know, five finger death punch. That’s not who Moses was. He had strength under control. Jesus had strength under control. I can call down legions of angels right now, guys, this, that’s not the plan, though. I have strength. It’s under control. Just let me go to the cross. Put your sword away. So this idea of meekness, I think, really is what we need to embody as Americans. We can have strength, keep it under control. Even now, as we have the majority and we’re kind of coming alive and with the I told you so kind of feeling that we all kind of have, many of us have, we can be meek. 

Drew Forsberg:
We can have strength under control and exude grace that way. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. Drew Forsberg, thank you so much. 

Drew Forsberg:
Thanks, Jeff. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.