Breaking Par and Breaking Free: Ken Schall’s Story of Courage

In this compelling episode of Courageous Crossroads, host Jeffrey L. Johnson sits down with PGA Professional Ken Schall to explore the highs and lows of a life dedicated to golf and personal redemption. From his humble beginnings in Waterloo, Iowa, to playing collegiate golf at New Mexico State, Ken’s journey in the sport has been nothing short of remarkable. He successfully navigated the grueling Q-School process and played on the PGA Tour, competing alongside legends like Fred Couples, Corey Pavin, and Payne Stewart. Ken shares riveting stories from his time on the PGA Tour, including an unforgettable practice round with Lee Trevino at the U.S. Open and a head-to-head match against a young Tiger Woods.

However, Ken’s most profound journey was not on the golf course, but within himself. After decades as a functional alcoholic, he faced his greatest challenge—the decision to embrace sobriety. With the support of his family and the strength of his faith, Ken courageously overcame addiction and found a renewed sense of purpose. Now, he dedicates his life to mentoring young golfers and sharing his journey to inspire others. With wisdom, humility, and humor, Ken reflects on his transformation, the role of faith in his recovery, and the joy of living a purpose-driven life. Whether you’re a golf enthusiast, someone navigating personal challenges, or simply seeking inspiration, this episode delivers an unforgettable story of resilience, self-discovery, and the courage to change.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. So glad you could join us again today. And just a reminder, we’re available on Spotify, we’re available on Apple Podcasts, but you can also go to our mothership, Crossroads apologetics.org that’s Crossroads apologetics.org and find us under the podcast tab. And you can go back and listen to all the previous podcast episodes that we’ve recorded, and we’re starting to amass quite a few now. So, anyway, so grateful that you could join us. My next guest, Ken Shaw, is a dear friend of mine, and he’s of some renown. He’s a very successful golf coach, that’s one thing. But he’s a PGA professional as well. And I got a chance to play golf with Ken, and he’s the real deal. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, those guys, I don’t know, for those of you that are golfers out there, those guys that can just hit the ball with such ease and it just seems like it’s not hard for them, it just unnerves me, just makes me so crazy. And as good as Ken is at playing the game of golf, and as excellent as he is at teaching the game of golf, he is that much of a gentleman as well. And I consider him a dear brother and a close friend. And he has enriched my life greatly. I think he’s tried a little bit to enrich my golf swing, and he’s certainly done that because he does have quite a few teaching bonafides, as I mentioned before. But the biggest impact he’s had on me is. Is on my heart and just the friendship that he’s offered me. 

Jeff Johnson:
But he has got some amazing stories. I think Ken is one of my favorite storytellers of all of my friends. I mean, he’s just exceptional at it. And he’s got a million of them, and he shares quite a few of them with us on this podcast. But then he shares some of the deeper things in his heart, some of the things that where courage really showed itself out in his life. And he does answer that question, what’s the most courageous thing I’ve ever done? And his answer will enrich you greatly. So without further Ado, glad you can join us. And here is Ken Shaw. Ken, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Grateful to have you here. 

Ken Schall:
Well, I’m grateful to be here, Jeff. I feel humbled at the invitation. It’s good to join you. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m always excited when I get to have people up to the lair because I. I don’t know if I’m proud of my, like, workspace up here or if I’m ashamed of it because I’ve got all the books stacked around all over the place. Ken, I got some picking up I need to do. 

Ken Schall:
Jeff, you got quite the library here. It’s quite impressive. 

Jeff Johnson:
I took it. I took a stack of books and shoved them into an old Rubbermaid contain a couple old Rubbermaid containers and took them down to my. One of my dad’s storage facilities down in Sheraton. I called him. I’m like, can I borrow some space down there? Because I just. These books are crawling over. But I love to read, so. 

Ken Schall:
Anyway, I can see that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Well, grateful to have you here and I’m just excited to have you on the program. You and I have known each other for how long? 

Ken Schall:
We’ve known each other for about three, four years, I would say. I’d say three, four years. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And I’m jealous as hell of you, Ken. I shouldn’t be. Well, because you’re a golfer. You’re a PGA Professional. 

Ken Schall:
I am. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I borrowed your golf bag one time. You were so gracious. I took this trip down to. Where was I going? I think I went to Arizona. Let’s say I went to Arizona. It might have been someplace else. I think it was Arizona. Arizona or Florida. Anyway, I needed to. My travel bag had been eaten through and it was just in terrible shape. And I mentioned that to you and you said, well, you can borrow my bag. And I said, thank you very much. It was very generous of you to do it. And then I got your bag, and it’s on the side of it says PGA Professional. It’s got your name on it. Ken Shaw, PGA Professional. People were looking at me when I was walking through the airport with him. Kidding. I mean, I felt like. 

Jeff Johnson:
I felt like I was big time when I had that bag. So how long have you been at PGA Professional? 

Ken Schall:
Well, I, I turned pro in 1982, and it’s great that we share a love for the game and an appreciation for the game and. And I grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, and played high school golf, went to college, played. Played college golf and turned pro, you know, shortly after college, where’d you play college golf? I played at New Mexico State. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, did you get recruited there? Did you just go there and you started on the team? 

Ken Schall:
It’s kind of an interesting story. I never got recruited. We had a really good high school team. I was probably about the number three guy in our high school team. Really didn’t even get recruited in state. But somebody got me on to contacting the coach at New Mexico State and I wrote him a letter and he wrote me a letter back and I still have it, just kind of stating that, you know, if. If I’m as good as I say I am, I should have no problem walking on it. Making the gol. So I ended up going to Las Cruces, New Mexico on a Greyhound bus. 

Jeff Johnson:
Really? 

Ken Schall:
And I get to Las Cruces at about. It was in the middle of the night and there was a boat dealership across the street. I took my stuff and I went over to the boat dealership and threw it in the back of a boat and slept there that night. Coach called my coach the next morning and he picked me up and got me checked in and everything. And qualifying started just a couple days later and it was a six round qualifying. I literally played the best round of my, the best golf of my life, really. And I made you. Oh, I probably shot somewhere around even par. So maybe a couple under. Maybe a couple. I can’t really remember. But I qualified number two on the team as a freshman and so I was able to. 

Ken Schall:
The deal was if I was able to maintain my position on the top five, I would get a scholarship going forward. And that’s kind of what happened there. Wow. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow, that’s even an interesting. See we’re two seconds into this interview, I’m already intrigued. What was the best part about going to school in New Mexico? 

Ken Schall:
Just, you know, the weather and the. 

Jeff Johnson:
And I think New Mexico is the most beautiful. 

Ken Schall:
Oh, it was absolutely gorgeous. And it was kind of desolate all the way down there. And I was really kind of, you know, I never took a college visit or anything. It was, it was sight unseen really. And so I got down there and, you know, the grasses were different to play off of and it was, it was kind of a learning curve and I think God was in my. At my side for sure during this qualifying. And interesting story that. So the first tournament we had was up in Albuquerque. It was, it was called the Tucker Invitational. It was one of the bigger college tournaments in the country at that time. So the guys in the field. I can rattle off a bunch of names that were in the field. Fred Couples and Corey Pavan and Joey Sind Bar. Oh, my God. 

Ken Schall:
And the king of college got in. Payne Stewart. And the king of college golf at that point in time was Bobby Clampett. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Ken Schall:
And I went up there and I didn’t, you know, I didn’t play particularly well, but neither did anybody else on the team. So I was able to maintain my position and just, you know, had a great experience there, playing golf there, for sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. That’s an amazing group of guys just to be hanging out with right off the bat, too. Ken, did you always know you were going to be a professional golfer? I mean, when did that was. 

Ken Schall:
Probably my dream since I was in about the eighth or ninth grade. You know, I was, as I said, I grew up in Waterloo and there was a couple pretty influential people in my life that were really good players and one of them was the pro at the country club there. Another fellow was a guy by the name of Jack Rule who had formerly played on the PGA Tour and was kind my mentor at the time and had two parents that were avid golfers as well. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Okay. So you go play college golf at New Mexico State, then what happens? 

Ken Schall:
Well, then when I got out of college and I didn’t finish college, I had some problems back then. I went, I went to New Mexico State for three years. Then I, you know, I turned pro. I actually won the state amateur the summer after I was finished with college and turned pro. And I, I took a job at Ames Golf and Country Club for a year. And then I moved down to Des Moines. I was an assistant pro at a private club in Des Moines, Wakanda Club. And then after that, I, I, I pretty much was just teaching at a municipal golf course. Blank. In Des Moines. And that’s where my game really kind of started to flourish. I had more time to play, you know, you know, in tournaments. And I was starting to go to Q school. 

Ken Schall:
You know, my dream was to play on the PGA Tour. And so I, I made it to the finals at Q school five years in a row. 

Jeff Johnson:
What is, let me ask, what is Q school? 

Ken Schall:
Q school is simply a, a, a golf tournament. And they have it in different stages. So for example, it’s one tournament or. 

Jeff Johnson:
Is it a series? 

Ken Schall:
It’s a series of tournaments. It’s in three different stages. For example, the first stage, you might have, you know, a thousand players around the country and then, you know, at various, you know, sites. And then out of a thousand players, maybe three or four hundred will advance. And then they. They narrow it down after the second stage of qualifying. And finally at the final stage of qualifying, there was 180 players, and 40 players end up getting their cards. And so when you get your card, wow, you have status on the PGA Tour. And that’s, you know, I. I got it on my fifth try and so managed to, you know, play out there 30 events. My first year, I think I made, like, 13 cuts, but I didn’t keep my card. And so, you know, the. 

Ken Schall:
The year after that, I played on the Ben Hogan Tour, which is now known as the Korn Ferry Tour. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Ken Schall:
Played a year out there, and, you know, after two years of it, I just kind of decided that. That I wasn’t going to support my family with my. With my golf game. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. What do you. In the world of professional golf, where do you have to rank or how do you have to play to get into that upper echelon, let’s say, of being able to support a family doing it? 

Ken Schall:
Right. Well, at the time I was playing, and this is still the case. You have to finish in the top 125 players on the money list to keep your playing privileges, to keep your card. Okay. I think I finished, like, 157th or something like that. So, you know, I had quite a ways to go. I. And, and, you know, back then, the players weren’t playing for near the money we are now. Corey Pavan was the leading money winner on the PGA Tour that year, and this was in 1991, and Corey made just shy of a million dollars, like 975,000 for the entire season. Well, the players now will make that amount of money finishing second in a single tournament. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Ken Schall:
And so times. Times have changed. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s a lot different. Yeah, but that must have been. That must have been brutal out there grinding, trying to win a tournament and come in 11th to scrape together something. And then. 

Ken Schall:
My. My first experience in a tour event was actually a couple years before I got my card. I got a spot in the US Open. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Ken Schall:
And. And so the US Open this year, that year was in 19. It was in 1989, and it was at Oak Hill Country Club in Rochester, New York. 

Jeff Johnson:
And that’s the rowdy one, isn’t it? 

Ken Schall:
Let’s see. Curtis Strange won that year. 

Jeff Johnson:
No, I mean, is that the one that everybody’s yelling and screaming? Is that what, Oak Hill. 

Ken Schall:
Oak Hill Country Club? 

Jeff Johnson:
Maybe not. 

Ken Schall:
You might be Thinking of a Ryder cup that they played there. They’ve played so many historic events at Oak Hill. And I rem. This is the most nervous I’ve ever been over a golf shot. Okay. It was in a Wednesday practice round, and I was all set to play with Hal Sutton and Mark McCumber. Okay? And I’d been at the range for a couple hours, and I. And I. I walked down to the first tee about 15 minutes early. And there was, you know, there was. I’m going to say there was four or five thousand people in the grandstands right on the first tee. And back then, they even announced your name in the practice. So I get down there, and here’s here. Stands on the first tee. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m getting nervous. You haven’t even told me the thing yet. 

Ken Schall:
Here on the first tee is Lee Trevino, who actually won the US Open at Oak Hill in 1968. So he’s a huge crowd favorite at this time. He was 49 years old, getting ready to go out and play on the Senior Tour. So also on the first tee was Seve Ballesteros, Nick Faldo, Ian Wooznum, Sandy Lyle, who just won the Masters that year, and Bernhard longer. Okay? So I’m just. I’m just thrilled. I’m just gonna sit there and watch these guys tee off. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
And Lee Trevino looks up at me, and he goes, hey, you got a game? And I was kind of dumbfounded. I didn’t even know he’s talking to me. And I just, you know, I. I stammered, and finally I said. I said, sure, I’ll play. And. And I wasn’t ready for that, you know? So Lee goes ahead and he says, I don’t want to play with these guys. And I just. It’s just gonna be me. Just join me. And so, you know, he hits. And then I’m, you know, still fiddling around, trying to find my glove. And I get up. I get up on the first tee, and I was really worried that I wasn’t gonna be able to get the ball on the tee because my hand was shaking. Okay? And so all these players know how nervous I am. 

Ken Schall:
The whole crowd probably knows. And. And so they announce my name and the course I’m playing out of. Blank Mun Disciple. Okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
And I get up and address my tee shot, and my leg’s shaking. Okay. Finally get the ball on the tee, and Sebi Balvestaros walks up and stands within a foot of my golf ball. He’s just messing with me, you know, he knows how nervous I am. I look up and I just about died. Okay. And I’ve got adrenaline coursing through my veins, and it’s amazing that I even made contact with the ball, but I actually just. I smashed this tee shot, and I hit it way past Trevino. Okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Of course. 

Ken Schall:
And my ball dribbles into the left rough. Okay. Which is fine, you know, And I practically ran off the first tee. Elite Trevino catches up to me, and he says, man, he goes, I’ll bet you’re glad to get that one out of the way. And he laughed, and he loved the fact that I was, you know, from a municipal golf course, and. And we had a great time playing together. I learned so much from him that the first round of the Open was a breeze compared to that day. I shot 72 in the first round, and I was tied for about 20th after the first round. I ended up missing the cut by a couple shots, but it was. It was great experience. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s. That’s a tremendous story right there. Okay, so the whole. The purpose of the podcast, which I’m going to get down to the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But we talk about the subject of courage, and I just think it’s so enriching for people to hear about other people’s endeavors and what they think about, you know, what their mind is about courage. So you’ve already. That certainly took a certain amount of courage just to stick the tea in the ground on the first tee, right? 

Ken Schall:
Oh, it did. You know, I. I didn’t really. I didn’t really know. Expect. I’d been nervous on a golf course before, but not to the point where my leg was shaken uncontrollable. 

Jeff Johnson:
And those guys had all been through it, so they knew. 

Ken Schall:
They knew. They absolutely knew. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
They’d been on their first tee before and done this thing. Wow. 

Ken Schall:
There hasn’t been a player of that caliber hasn’t been nervous like that at some point in their career. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, my gosh. Okay, tell me what. How would you define courage? What do you think courage means to you? 

Ken Schall:
That’s such a great question. And. And, yeah, I guess courage to me is. Is being able to get out of your comfort zone and. And do something. Do something that you think is right. Okay. But is. Is out of your comfort zone and something daunting, you know? Yeah, that’s what it feels like to me, anyway. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Getting out of your comfort zone. I like that. And pressing through. And now I ask a lot of people this question. So I’m gonna ask you the same. And I always give myself license to ask difficult questions. 

Ken Schall:
Ken. 

Jeff Johnson:
So sorry, you’re in the receiver seat now. Okay. Do you, do you consider yourself a courageous person? 

Ken Schall:
You know, I listened to your podcast and some of the people that were on it, and compared to the people you’ve had on it, probably not. I mean, You’ve had Navy SEALs on this show. You’ve had a good friend of mine, Doug Gatto, you know, I can’t compare my courage to someone like a Navy seals put their life on the line. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
You know, I’ve done some things that I felt took courage in my life, you know, but, you know, do I consider myself a courageous person? I don’t know. Maybe. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
I don’t know if that’s a good answer. 

Jeff Johnson:
No, I mean, I say, well, Mike, one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast is because I think I can. I’ve said this many times before on the show. I think I can ask people, I can ask everybody in the world that question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? You know, and it’s relative and everybody’s going to have answer. And we’ve had beautiful answers with all the guests that we’ve had on, you know, thus far. But I could ask somebody, I could ask you, even in the course of today, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? You know, and you’d be able to answer that question inside of a given 24 hour period. So I guess that’s. I’m giving you my answer right there. Yes, I think you’re. 

Jeff Johnson:
I think that’s a right answer, and I think you’re a courageous person. I think everybody has that in them. And everybody has been pushed to a certain brink, if you will, or given a situation and they’ve pushed through it. Everybody’s got that experience. Some of them might be, you know, the Bible talks about jumping in a pit and fighting a lion on a snowy day. Not all of us have done that. You know, I’ve certainly not done that, but all of us have gotten up, you know, in the morning when we don’t feel very good and we’ve gone to work because we needed to get the job done. You know, that’s a courageous endeavor, too. So anywhere in that spectrum, you know, I think we all can fall there. So, I mean, do you agree with that? What do you think? 

Ken Schall:
I do agree with that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Who are the people that you would consider courageous? I Mean, it could be a group of people, it could be a historical figure. It could be somebody that, you know in your day to day. I mean, do you have people that you look at? 

Ken Schall:
Probably the most courageous person, probably the most courageous person that then I’m aware of ever is Jesus Christ. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
You know, he gave his life for us to, you know, for us to forgive our sins. And so, you know, he did something courageous over 2000 years ago, and everybody’s still talking about it. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Okay, so I want to jump right in and ask the question, Ken, and then we’ll, we might have some other questions around the fringes here, but, Ken Shaw, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve done? 

Ken Schall:
Well, it has to be the day that, you know, you talk. Here’s the, here’s the name of your podcast. Courageous Crossroads. I came at a crossroads in my life, and it’s the day that I surrendered to alcohol. And the prospects of me giving up alcohol at the time seemed so daunting and so impossible that, you know, it took some courage, too, from some people from my family to point out the fact that I needed to stop. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
You know, and so that for that, I’m forever, ever grateful. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow. So you came to a crossroads with drinking too much. 

Ken Schall:
Yes. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you say that it was dawning to think of living a life without alcohol. Describe that. What do you mean? 

Ken Schall:
Well, you know, there would be periods of my life where I, you know, I, I could, you know, stop drinking for periods of time. And, you know, I started drinking at a very young age. You know, it was back, you know, 9th, 10th graders. 9th or 10th grade or so. And, you know, I got to the point where I could, you know, consume a lot of alcohol and still function. And this carried on for decades, really, all throughout my career as a PGA professional, you know, I would, I think you would characterize me as a, is a functional alcoholic, you know, if that’s the right word for that. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, take a couple drinks when you go out on the course to kind of cool the nerve. 

Ken Schall:
It wasn’t even, it wasn’t even. And it wasn’t while I was playing competitive golf. It was more, it was more, you know, I, I’d worked, I’ve worked at various courses and clubs, you know, throughout Iowa and Des Moines and Waterloo and, you know, I, I, I consumed a lot of alcohol, not necessarily on the job, you know, but, but, you know, it started out social and then, you know, you know, with friends and then all of a sudden, you know, I, I drank probably more than my friends. I don’t think my friends actually knew exactly how much I did drink, you know, and nor my family, you know, until the very end, you know, so. 

Jeff Johnson:
It was a lot of closet drinking or sneaking it around kind of, I. 

Ken Schall:
Would say a little bit. Yeah, kind of closet drinking and just drinking while nobody. I did a lot of drinking alone and I could hold, I could maintain my composure with a lot of alcohol in my system. I had a very high tolerance and eventually that is going to, it’s going to take some wear and tear on your body and your mind and, you know, the way you perform and so forth. So. 

Jeff Johnson:
So your family got in your grill? 

Ken Schall:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
You got a problem. 

Ken Schall:
We had an intervention and it was my mother and my wife Connie and my son Brian. And it took a lot of courage for them to do that. And, and it wasn’t met with a lot of resistance. You know, it’s almost like they told me what I needed to hear at the right time. At the right time. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. So you were, how long might be valuable for our listeners to know how long were you actively engaged? Said you started in ninth grade. 

Ken Schall:
I would say ninth grade. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And then when did you stop? Like how many years did you have? A couple decades under your belt or. 

Ken Schall:
I didn’t stop until I was 57 years old. Okay, so we’re talking about a, you know, 40 plus year run there. 

Jeff Johnson:
Good run. Yeah, that’s right. Wow. Well, good for you. So what, why do you characterize that? Say more about how you characterize that as the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. Because I absolutely believe you, Ken. And I’ve heard that story from a lot of different people. 

Ken Schall:
You know, at first I was really worried about what people would think about me, you know. And you know, when I was drinking, I always felt alcoholics were just a bunch of losers that had no self will. You know, I had friends that were alcoholics and it’s like, what’s the matter with this guy? Why can’t he maintain like, I can I get up and I’m on time to work every day. I do my job, I do it well. And sure, I work hard and play hard. Why can’t they be like me? You know what I mean? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
And not all alcoholics are the same. And so I was kind of Worried at first that people would find out. And I, I don’t really feel that way anymore. I, I don’t hide it. My staff at work knows, you know, that I go to meetings and, and I’m involved in the program and, you know, it’s alcohol. And when I came to realize that alcoholism is a disease rather than a lack of willpower, that kind of helped me turn the corner a little bit, you know? You know, there’s something, there’s a gene inside me. Not that my parents had a drinking problem or anybody in my family really. It’s, it’s something where I cannot have a drink. I can’t have one. I know that if I have one, then it’s game over, it’s off to the races again. I just, I just know that. 

Ken Schall:
And it’s, you know, and I kind of applied the same principles when I quit smoking. You know, I quit smoking shortly after I quit drinking. And, and I know if I were to go light up a cigarette right now, it’d be off to the races with that too. Yeah. So I guess it’s just my personality, but I’ve learned enough about myself now through this, you know, progress 12 step program that I’m in that I have an awareness of, of the program now. 

Jeff Johnson:
What, what was it like being a functional alcoholic before? Was that a. I don’t know if I wanted to try to be so cute as to fold the idea of courage in with that, but, you know, you’re hanging on and you’re trying to do the best you can one day at a time, but you’re needing to use alcohol because it absolutely is a disease and there’s a conundrum there. There’s a. How do I keep going? So what was that like while you were. 

Ken Schall:
It was hard work. It was hard work, you know, to keep things under wraps, or at least think I was. Keeping things under wraps was hard work. It was, you know, the timing of it all, the planning of it all. You know, when I’m gonna, when am I gonna be able to drink? And, and, and after a while, you know, after a while revealed itself, you know, to my family and, you know, I started to see some, you know, health signs. I remember being in a. You know, of course, we all lie to our doctors. You know, you, you fill out a health form. You know, there’s that section on the health form that asks you, right, how many drinks a week you have, you got the section, you know, check the box. Two to four, you know, four to six to eight. 

Ken Schall:
Eight to 12 drinks a week. Well, where’s my box? It doesn’t show up there. You know, it’s so. 

Jeff Johnson:
And then you got to play the game of, well, what would the appropriate answer be for somebody who’s not, you know, you wouldn’t want to say zero, because nobody’s going to believe that. So you say two to four or something, right? 

Ken Schall:
Well, then one day I asked my doctor, I said, you know, I feel like I drink. Drink too much. I just want you to check the, you know, the. The ph levels or the enzymes in my liver, you know, and so. Okay, we’ll. We’ll take a look at that. And he gives me a call two or three days later and said, yeah, Ken, we got a little issue here with the. With your liver. I’m going to schedule you a ultrasound. And so I go to this hospital, and I’m sitting in this room, and this nurse is. Is. Is scanning my stomach with a ultrasound machine. I just remember thinking to myself, how did I end up here? And. And so, yeah, that was. That was a big moment there, too. 

Jeff Johnson:
And so the realization that something’s not right. 

Ken Schall:
Right. And so, yeah, they were. The. The levels were off the charts. And so, you know, it’s. Fortunately, livers tend to repair themselves, and so I should be in decent shape now. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Well, so short of. Short of locking you up and, you know, taping your mouth shut or something like that, you know, nobody else has the power to make you or me or anybody stop drinking. So you said that the intervention was a catalytic moment. What was the. What was the thing that really did it for you where you said, I’m done. I’m not doing this anymore? 

Ken Schall:
I would have to say it was the. It was the family intervention. You know, it. Just tell me what I needed to hear and. And just. You know, it’s like my life just flashed before my eyes, and it’s like, am I really gonna go. Am I going to be in this state for the rest of my life? You know, I. You know, I can. Can. I can be a better person than this. You know, I can be. I can be present for people, present for my family and friends and. And. And live my life with. You know, with. With a purpose, you know, so that’s. That’s what I feel is happening now. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I got so much admiration for you, Ken. You know, People if they wonder what helps me stay sober, you know, it’s people like you, and you’re a good friend of mine, and I’ve learned so much from you and hear your stories and stuff like that, and it’s a thing that helps me stay sober. It’s amazing how you know that. Proverb 27:17 is, Iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another works with recovery. 

Ken Schall:
How true that is. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s a remarkable thing. But talk about courage and living a sober life now. 

Ken Schall:
Well, it. I love the life I live now. It’s a life that I never thought I wanted until I have it, you know, and so, you know, I’m really grateful for guys like you, Jeff. You. You light the path. And I’ve got. I’ve got quite a great sponsor, Doug G. He’s been on this podcast. He’s. He’s been just a really wonderful influence in my life. He’s a very spiritual person. I am certainly no spiritual giant myself, you know, But I’ll tell you what, just being in this program has introduced me to God, and. And I go through. I go through my day in constant contact with God, which is something that never was, you know, part of my life before I grew up Catholic. And. And it was like, I heard something this morning in a meeting. 

Ken Schall:
You know, a guy that grew up Catholic, and I identified with this. He said, I grew up and I felt the same way that. That God was out there. God was something that was somewhere else other than inside myself. And I feel I can go through the day. And I feel God inside me, you know, guiding me through the day. I’m. I’m constantly asking God what to do. I talk to God like I talk to you. You know, something will come up, and I’ll go. I’ll say something like, okay, God, I got one for you now. And. And how should I handle. Handle this? And. And, you know, I have. I have a business where we do a lot of teaching of golf, a lot of golf lessons, a lot of club fittings. 

Ken Schall:
And so I’m really privileged to work with so many young golfers, you know, really good high school and college players. And. And I really think that’s a blessing for me, just, you know, being able to, you know, help young kids get better at the game, help them realize their dreams and. And maybe give them a little guidance along the way so that they don’t make the same mistakes that I. That I did, you know, so that’s kind of where I’m, you know, I feel like my What I do for a living is more. Has become more of a purpose than a profession, you know. So, you know, for that, I’m really grateful that I get to live this life and kind of hit the reset button after, you know, at the age of 56 and go on and do something that. 

Ken Schall:
That, you know, to me is pretty meaningful. 

Jeff Johnson:
More of a purpose than a profession. 

Ken Schall:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Ever since I’ve known you, Ken, you have. You’ve always been so generous and so kind, and it just, it. It’s a hallmark of yours. And I notice other people that are around you make that same comment. Not that we talk about you behind your back a whole lot, but. But you’re just. You’ve got a light about you, and that must come from the courage of being able to put the plug in the jug and do something different. Is it hard to stay sober? 

Ken Schall:
It’s. It’s not hard for me to stay sober. No. I. I don’t. I don’t really. It’s been a long time since I’ve craved alcohol, but, you know, I. I kind of have to. I kind of have to watch that. I, you know, I don’t want to ever feel safe in this program. I’ve seen too many people, like my sponsor Doug, tells me that I need to stay in the center of the program if I get. If I get lazy and I don’t, you know, I don’t go to meetings and I don’t, you know, I. I work with the sponsor, too. I sponsor somebody and I don’t, you know, do the things that are necessary to stay sober. And if I live on the edges of the program, then I’m at risk. 

Ken Schall:
I’ve seen people fail that have been sober for decades, you know, so I don’t want to be that person. You know, I wanna. I wanna. I wanna go the rest of my life. I like sobriety. I like having a clear head. You know, I like making good decisions instead of bad decisions and being present for people and. And, you know, just trying to do the next right thing. So I try to do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. What do you suggest for somebody who’s maybe got a highball in their hand right now, you know, and they’re thinking, man, this is about 1000 too many for me, and I need to do something. But they don’t know how they’re going to live without the drink. You know, what’s the. How would you encourage them? 

Ken Schall:
I would encourage them to go to a meeting, start. There is a good start, you know, and you know, the first meeting I went to was. Was a little intimidating at first. I didn’t, you know, I didn’t want it. I didn’t like the idea of. Of saying, hi, I’m Ken. I’m an alcoholic. You know, it just, it didn’t. Excuse me. It didn’t set with me, you know, and I didn’t really 100 feel like I was an alcoholic until I started listening to the stories going around the room. And then I began to think, you know what? These guys are just like me. I’m just like them. And I started listening. And when I went to my first meeting, I didn’t think I’d be staying sober the rest of my life. It just seemed. It seemed too daunting. It really did. I just remember. 

Ken Schall:
I’ll never forget this, Jeff. You know, I. I remember dropping to my knees and. And at that point in time, I was not a prayer. Okay. I didn’t talk to God much. Okay. Just I got on my knees and. And, And I. I prayed to stay sober today, and I did. So, sorry, I’m getting a little emotional here, but I love that. And then I. And then I made it another day. And then I went to the same meeting the next week, and. And I was sober a week, and the people in the meetings, I mean, they put their arms around me. It was. It was incredible. And so then I found some more meetings, and then I started meeting guys like you. And, you know, the. 

Ken Schall:
My picture of an alcoholic before I got into the program was far different than my picture of alcoholics now. I, you know, as I said, I felt like, you know, alcoholics were. Were losers with no willpower. And then I start looking at guys like you know, extremely successful people. You know, there’s just there. There’s one right after the other, you know, and. And I feel like I’m part of a community now, you know, so. Very grateful. Very, very grateful. 

Jeff Johnson:
I love that picture, Ken. Hitting your knees and just trying to stay sober. Asking the Lord to help you stay sober just for one day. I mean, if that’s not a picture of courage, I don’t know what. I don’t know what is. Wow. One of my favorite quotes. I’m going to turn this conversation just a little bit, and I’m going to poke a little bit at your past. But one of the. One of my favorite quotes is, if you want somebody to know the truth, you should tell them. But if you want somebody to love the truth, you tell them a story, which is one of the reasons why Love having you in my life because you’re one of the best storytellers in the history of the. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, to put a, to put a story about living a sober life in with some unique and interesting anecdote. So tell me. This is putting you on the spot. Tell me. And tell me an interesting story about playing golf and about. What do I want to ask you? What’s your best golf story? 

Ken Schall:
Oh, golly, there’s just. Oh, Jeff, there’s just, there’s so many. 

Jeff Johnson:
Because you bumped into some pretty amazing people and you’ve been places where people just have not, you know, guys that are just trying to dig it out of the dirt like me and everybody else never made it to that top 125 or whatever. And you did. So, I mean, you’ve seen. 

Ken Schall:
Well, okay, I have a story for you. This was, I think it was trying to remember the year I played. I put. So I played in two U.S. Opens and seven PGAs. Okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Ken Schall:
And, and one of the PGAs that I played in, of course I missed the cut like I did in all the other PGAs that I played in. But they took about 20 of us to Michigan. There was a tournament, a junior golf tournament that day called the Big I, the National Insurance Youth Classic. Okay. And the kids that made the cut on Sunday got to play with a tour pro in their group. So they brought 20 of us or so, maybe more than that, into University of Michigan golf course. And, and were to play with these world class juniors. Okay. And so we’re in the bar, of course, that night when we get there at the club and they pass around the pairings and sure enough, I am going to be paired with this Tiger Woods. Okay. Yeah. 

Ken Schall:
Now at this time, Tiger woods is 16 years old, okay. Now he’s coming off, I think, his second win at the USGA Junior. He’s already making a name for himself, you know, and, and sure enough, I’m paired with him. So go out the golf course the next day and, and I meet him and the two other juniors that I’m playing with. Now I have to play the back to the back tees and the juniors are playing one tee ahead of me. Okay. They tee off first because you’re the pro. 

Jeff Johnson:
These guys are just coming. 

Ken Schall:
I’m the pro and I’m just not. I’m, I’m the pros that are there kind of playing for their own little purse, you know, they threw in some money for us to play for. And so Tiger woods gets up and hits this tee shot and looks back at me. I’m, you know, 20 yards back of him. He just smokes this tee shot. And he looks back at me. He goes, go get it, pro. Now, I’m coming off a bad stretch of playing. I think I’ve missed like two or three cuts in a row. And, and I, you know, I managed to. I managed to shoot 70 or 71 that day. And Tiger probably has his worst round of the summer. He must have shot 77 or 78 or something like that. And he’s, you know, he wasn’t real well behaved that day. 

Ken Schall:
His dad, Earl, was following him around, and we didn’t have. We didn’t really talk a whole lot while we played. You know, he didn’t have any questions for me until about the 14 or 15th hole. I’m just, I’m making putts all from all over the place just to grind out a one under round. And he comes up and he said, say, he goes, do you guys all putt this good? And I said, you know, Tiger, I said, I’m pretty sure most everybody on tour putts just as good or a little better than I do. You know, he. He took that in and, you know, he ended up being, you know, become one of the best putters in the world under pressure. But so I, I guess I can say I’m one and. Oh. Against Tiger. Head to head. 

Jeff Johnson:
You beat him? 

Ken Schall:
I beat him. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s awesome. Well, see, and there’s courage embedded in that, too. Man. What an awesome life. What’s your. What’s your, what’s your life like with your family now after that intervention? 

Ken Schall:
Oh, just. Just incredible. You know, my wife, Connie, you know, she. We’re business partners. We’re partners in life. And, you know, she. My, My business never would have made it without her. You know, she’s been with me for 36 years, through the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it, you know, and so, you know, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t be sitting here today without her. I know that for sure. My mom is a. Is an amazing person. She’s. She’s 88. She’s. She’s coming off some health issues, but she shot her age last year playing golf. Shot 87 last year. Just. She’s just a. You know, she’s my North Star, you know, she really is. And my son. My son is a. I’m gonna get emotional now, probably, but. But my son is a. Become A really successful businessman. 

Ken Schall:
He’s a, he’s a developer and he is developing drug and alcohol treatment centers. Okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Really? 

Ken Schall:
He just opened. He’s a partner. He’s a, like an equal partner with two other guys. And they just opened their first one in Pleasant Hill last month. Okay. It was on the news. They opened another one indiana last week. They’re going to open another one in Iowa City in a month. And they have, I think, six or seven more under construction right now. And so my son is like the sweat equity partner in the deal. He has to do all the work. He has to get the investors, get the bank financing, work with the construction crews and, and get it through the city councils. And, and so that’s his part in it. And, and they have a great management that their other partner in. It is a, it is a management company that manages these places. 

Ken Schall:
And, and so he’s got, and whether my issues with, I haven’t talked to him about this, but whether my issues with alcohol were part of his decision to, you know, to bring that niche of business to his company, I, I don’t know if it has anything to do with it or not, but he’s, you know, what he’s doing is going to help a lot of people. Wow. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And he sure helped his dad, too. 

Ken Schall:
Oh, yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
By having the courage to say, hey, wow. 

Ken Schall:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Ken Shaw, I admire you greatly. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

Ken Schall:
It’s been my privilege. Yeah, it’s been great. I appreciate it. 

Outro: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or infoorossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.