Brave Hearts & Bold Moves: Sam Harvey on the Power of Courage

Sam Harvey is an internationally experienced leadership coach and the founder of Braver Leaders, a firm specializing in bespoke corporate behavior change programs across the UAE, UK, and beyond. With a background in running companies, Sam’s journey took a pivotal turn in 2017 when he faced a personal reckoning that led to a profound transformation. Now, through his work in leadership development, mindfulness-based cognitive therapy, and systemic coaching, he empowers executives to lead with authenticity, vulnerability, and courage. In this episode of Courageous Crossroads, Sam joins host Jeffrey L. Johnson from his home in Dubai to explore the true meaning of courage—not just as bold action but as the willingness to be vulnerable, confront personal struggles, and create meaningful change. Sam shares his courageous journey, from overcoming addiction and navigating personal hardship to challenging corporate leaders to embrace empathy and openness. With his signature humility and insight, he offers invaluable advice on how embracing discomfort and leading with authenticity can build stronger, more connected teams—and, ultimately, a more fulfilling life.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. Just a quick reminder, if you’d like to see other episodes of the Courageous Crossroads, you can do that on a normal Apple podcast platform or Spotify, but we also stream the podcast from Our Mothership, Crossroads apologetics.org and you can also see some. Read some blog posts there and see some other content. Crossroads apologetics.org and if you’d like to support what it is that we’re doing here and maybe see a conference down the road or some additional content, just think maybe you’d like to give us a little bit of a helping hand. Feel free to hit that donate button@crossroadsapologetics.org in the upper right hand corner. And we’ll keep getting great content out to you, which is exactly what we have to offer you today. Another dear friend of mine, I’ve been waiting a long time for this interview. Sam Harvey was another classmate of mine at our organizational leadership cohort at Oxford University 2023. And I found Sam to be absolutely engaging and what a wonderful leader and just an inspiring person. And you’re going to find exactly the same from this interesting interview. I catch up with him while he’s in Dubai. And I was mentioning to Sam that one of the great takeaways that I had from my Oxford experience was the diversity of my classmates. We had about 56 people in the cohort, and they were from all over the world with different backgrounds and different ethnicities and different worldviews. Different belief systems come from different governments, of course, you know, and all of that was so enriching to me. I found myself being able to empathize a lot more with stuff that’s going on globally. And it was just a real blessing to me. And I was asking Sam if he had the same kind of epiphany that I did in Oxford. And that’s where we start off with us engaging in that. In that question. But anyway, you’re gonna absolutely love Sam Harvey here. 

Sam Harvey:
He is, maybe to a lesser degree, but that’s probably because I’ve lived a lot of places, right? Like, you know, I’m from a tiny island in the South Pacific, which is. And you know, I’ve lived in the north of the country and the south of the country. The south of the country is very white. The, the north of the country is very Polynesian. Right. But then you, I’ve lived in New York City. I’ve lived in, you know, which was a melting pot. I’ve lived in the Caribbean, like, and where I was the minority. I now live in Dubai where I’m the minority again. And I’ve also lived in London, which is, you know, probably a greater melting pot than New York. So I think I have such a, I, I kind of seek out, I think unconsciously now I’m unconsciously competent of seeking out diverse experiences because I love that. So, Yeah, I think I 100 agree with you. And I think that was where I sort of, I felt that is where I find my joy. Right. Of like, oh, man, you’re different. Tell me more, you know. Yeah, so, yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, I absolutely love it. So wonderful, Sam. And thank you so much for joining us. We’re with Sam Harvey today and I’m talking to Sam, he’s sitting in Dubai. Share a little bit of your background for our listeners, Sam, and tell us why in the world you’re in such a wonderful place. I’m in Dubai and it’s going to be freezing rain today and Sam’s in Dubai and it’s going to be what, Sunny and perfect, 80 degrees. 

Sam Harvey:
Sunny and 82 degrees, I think we figured out, didn’t we, in Fahrenheit speak? Yeah. Thanks for having me, mate. And I, I, I’m, this one, I’m grateful for being here with you and I’m grateful to have you as a friend and I’m grateful for the way in which we met. So thank you. Yeah, awesome. Do you want the, when you say a little bit of background, do you want the CV version or the Sam Harvey version? I kind of want to, I kind. 

Jeff Johnson:
Of want to hear a little bit of the C. Well, give me a little bit of both. Mix both of them together. Whatever’s on your heart to share. Sam, we just want to put you in context and know where you’re coming from before I start inundating you with all these questions about courage. 

Sam Harvey:
Okay, cool, cool. So I have a team coaching leadership development business named Braver Leaders. We operate across the UAE and the uk Done some work across the EU as well. But basically we create bespoke corporate behavior change programs where we go into corporates, do a lot of research, figure out what’s going on and then. And create behavior change programs for them over the long haul. So we work with our clients for, you know, one, two, three years kind of thing. So yeah, I’m very grateful to do that. I come from a background of running companies but then got fired in 2017 and we’ll probably touch on why, I reckon. And had a bit of a, an awakening moment, a spiritual awakening you might call it. And yeah, then changed my life around and sort of started diving into behavior change leadership, which we studied together, obviously mindfulness based cognitive therapy, looking at things like coaching, team coaching, systemic coaching, that kind of thing. So I’ve done a fair bit of study in that and yeah, that’s how we develop Braver Leaders. So I’ve lived, as we talked about, I’ve lived all around the world, so lived in New York City, lived in the Caribbean, lived in. I lived on boats in the Caribbean because that’s what you do, right? 

Jeff Johnson:
What, you lived on boats? 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, yeah, I was on boats in the Caribbean. So I lived on boats for on and off for seven years between New York City and the Caribbean. So that was mad. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s fantastic. 

Sam Harvey:
In London and then now Dubai as well as obviously living in New Zealand for a good chunk of. Of of my life and slowly heading back that way. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow, wow. So Braver Leaders has an international footprint. I mean, are you. 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, correct. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yep. 

Sam Harvey:
So we’re, we focus on the UAE and the uk. Those are our two markets. We are slowly starting to grow some business in Australasia, so primarily Auckland because that’s, you know, where we’re from. My business partner Baz is also a Kiwi. So yeah, we both have ambitions of heading back that way one day. So we’re slow starting to look over the 17 hour flight and go. Yeah, yeah, that’s close enough. Right? 

Jeff Johnson:
That works, right? 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you have, do you have multiple coaches then that are in Braver Leaders? You must have a pretty healthy staff. 

Sam Harvey:
It’s not a staff, so we use associates. So we have a very small core team. So we’re a lifestyle boutique. Right. We, we don’t have any ambitions of being a big agency. We just want to be a small lifestyle agency which punches above its weight and does good work because we can be close to it. We don’t want to be so far away from the work that the work gets diluted. And so yeah, that’s, we have a small core team which runs the projects and then we bring in experts when we need them. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. That’s exciting. Well, Sam, we’re here talking about courage today, and I chased you down for a while to be on the podcast because I was so impressed when went through our Oxford class, organizational leadership studies that we got to do in 2023. And I don’t want to slobber on you too much. You wouldn’t like me doing that. But I was so impressed with you, and you always had the most insightful questions and all of your questions were very engaging. So I thought, who would I want to ask about the topic of courage? And Sam Harvey came to mind right away. So give me a definition of that before we wade into it. How would you define courage? When you hear that word, what’s that mean to you? 

Sam Harvey:
Feeling the fear and doing it anyway. Right. Because bravery or courage only comes when you’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right, yeah. Do you, do you identify yourself as a courageous person? 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, I suppose so. I talk quite regularly about the struggles that I’ve faced. And so I think I am in some ways. And in some ways I’ve still got a lot to learn. And I talk openly about the things I’ve faced, I think the things that I have to learn, trying to learn in the moment. Right. And so that I am like, oh, yeah, remember that lesson we had? Let’s not do that again. Which I guess is a lifelong journey. Right. So, yeah, I, I guess I, I guess so. I, I, as you can probably hear in my voice, I struggle with self praise a little bit, but I’m getting there. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, humility is a good thing. It’s another, it’s another one of your wonderful qualities, I think. I think I don’t want to soften this up too much. I think I want to jump right into the question, and then we’ll find several other questions on the other side of it. So, Sam Harvey, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Sam Harvey:
Am I all right to go where we talked on. On. 

Jeff Johnson:
Absolutely, yes. 

Sam Harvey:
Cool. Cool. So I think the, it’s an interesting question because actually, in reality, the, what comes to mind is getting sober. Right. So I am coming up on seven years sober and clean, I would say, as well, because that was, those were problems for me. Right. And in reality, you know, getting sober and clean was actually, I don’t want to say kind of easy because the 15 years or so preceding that were awful. Well, not awful like they weren’t all bad, but like there were some tough times, but in reality, like, it was kind of just. I was knocked on a different path by somebody taking a stand against my behavior. And as I mentioned or referred to earlier, I was fired for. For. For some behavior that, you know, people said, no, you can’t do that here. And it just kind of knocked me on another path. And I, for a moment thought the world was ending, and then very quickly saw that it wasn’t. And so the courageous thing was not actually that the courageous thing was or became talking about it, because in the community of sobriety and AA and those things, it’s not often talked about. I mean, it’s quite anonymous in the name. Right. The. The key is in the name. And so people retain their anonymity in those rooms. Right. And. And that’s a great thing. And I would never disrespect anyone that I. That I. That, you know, who is not me, basically by. By talking about that. But for me, there’s power in sharing, because for me, what has been a revelation is sharing your story and seeing the trust that it creates in those who are listening. And if I go and make. It’s a bit of an overshare, right? Like, hey, I have a problem with drugs and alcohol. I don’t have it anymore. I consider myself recovered. If I go there and share that, then people go a little further than maybe they usually would, and they share something personal about themselves. And it’s this bedrock of. Of psychological safety, of. Of. Of. Of trust, of conflict, you know, that you want. When you. You start that way, it creates these. Yeah, there’s so many other wonderful threads that come from it. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
How. When did you know that you had an issue? 

Sam Harvey:
Because you’re right. 

Jeff Johnson:
I mean, it’s a. It’s speaking to another recovery person. It. It was fun for a good long time, and then it wasn’t. 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. 

Jeff Johnson:
The. 

Sam Harvey:
And thank you for. For saying it out loud. I. I wasn’t sure, but. Yeah, the. Well, I wasn’t sure that I should say anything is what I mean. So, yeah, I think for me, like. Like, you. It was like. Yeah, there was lots of fun times, like when I was in the Caribbean. That was awesome. Yeah, man. Lots of pina colors, lots of boats, lots of good times. And. And then in New York City, there was also some good times, but it started to get a little bit shady. Right. And then when I went back to New Zealand, it got properly shady. And. And I think I realized, to answer your question, probably I was about 34 or 35. And I got sober when 37, and I realized about 34, 35. I was like, man, I cannot control this. There’s something’s going on. And. And I was kind of. You know, a couple of people said to me, though, like, yeah, and you’re not the best when you drink. You know, that. Or. And. And. And sort of things were starting to, like, things were held together on the surface, but inside it was just, you know, I was a mess because I was like, I. I can. I drink normally now. I had like, extended periods off of like six months. And as soon as I go back, it would just get worse and worse. You know, they say, right. It never always worse, never better. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Sam Harvey:
And so. And that. That progressive illness, which I now believe it to be, just took hold for sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. So you say this is interesting. The. Certainly it takes a lot of courage to put the plug in the jug, as we say. But you’re saying the courageous thing really is being able to talk about it for me. 

Sam Harvey:
And I think, you know, they’re. They’re. You know, I was thinking about what I was gonna. When you. You. I knew you were gonna ask me this question today, right? And I was like, what am I gonna say? I was like, okay, yeah, I can talk about that. But there’s been another instance in my life over the last couple of years, actually, that happened that transpired when were on our. On our degree together, that I left my partner at the time. And that was so much harder than anything to do with getting sober. So much harder. It’s still hard. And I did it at the time because I didn’t handle it well. I didn’t do it the right way. I regret the way that. That it went down. And I do miss her all of the time. But it was still the right thing to do. And it was one of the hardest things. And to go back to. To talking about it, I couldn’t talk about, like, I threw me into a depression last year. Last year was the hardest year of my life, unquestionably. And it threw me into this depression, which. The guy who talks about things in public, like, I. I speak publicly regularly about creating psychological safety. Couldn talk about the depression he was going through. And so then I got to this point of like, okay, I can talk about it. I opened up about it, the same response. People like, man, thank you for sharing. Are you okay? And, yeah, that. That is the self for me is that expression of, okay, this is. I’m finding this really hard. I need to Say it out loud. That’s the courageous bit for me. 

Jeff Johnson:
What. What have you found when you’ve done that, when you shared that with people? Because that’s inspired, Sam, to hear you talk about that. Because I. I can empathize. And I’m sure the people that are listening to us right now can empathize to being through the same thing where they don’t want to. They don’t want to say the thing that’s really going on, but the whole world can read it on them. And then when they do say it seems to unlock something. So what happens when you share that with people? The truth? 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, I think. I think when I first started sharing it was a little bit of like, okay, that this has made it real. Which I never thought it would happen to me. Being depressed, I thought I was somebody who skipped around that. Right. I was like, yeah, no, that doesn’t happen to me. But, yeah, so there was a kind of a, okay, it’s real. It’s out in front of me. And then from that realness has become some objectivity of, right, what am I going to do about this? And, I mean, everybody I’ve shared it with, there hasn’t been. I mean, unless they haven’t said anything to me, nobody has kind of gone, why are you telling us that? Everyone’s like, man, are you okay? Well, thank you for sharing. And I started to use it in my. In my oversharing way to. To build trust with people in. In. In team coaching settings or just show, hey, look, I’m going to go a bit too far here so that you will be able to come a little further than you usually do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I think people are really. I’m. I’m so glad we’re going down this road here, Sam, because I think people take a breath of fresh air when you lead first. You know what I mean? When you share the thing that’s really going on in your heart first. It really. I found, anyway, it gives people license to share the thing that’s really going on with them. My. My grandmother, my paternal grandmother Vera taught me a Swedish proverb. She said, a shared joy is twice the joy, and a shared burden is half the burden. And I. And I’m 57 years old, and I’ve tested that postulate over and over again, and it’s. It’s absolutely true. When I share a joy with somebody, it magnifies it. And when I share a burden, something where I’m being honest, something that’s really going on with me, man, it cuts it in half at least, you know, and I feel better. So I think that is a very courageous thing, being able to talk about it, whatever that thing is. I assume that informs a lot of your coaching. 

Sam Harvey:
For sure. I think. Yeah. It. I mean, what we do, what it says on the tin. Brave leaders does what it says on the tin, right? We are brave first, and weave that through all of our leadership development. So it’s. And we. We. Actually. I had a session yesterday with a group of CEOs of one of the largest media agencies in the world, which we are. We are working with, right? And we sat around, and the thing they said to us was, look, your co. Your trainings are brilliant. Like, you. You do what every other training agency does. You have the tools that they do. What you do, which is different, is. Is you bring in this empathy and vulnerability that allows us. Nobody’s ever done that with us before, and they walked out of it as a unit. That’s this kind of tight. Hey, these are my. My buddies, right? Like, I. I got. They got my back, I got theirs. And that’s how that’s created, in my opinion. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you can’t. Good for you, Sam, because you can’t fake that either. You can’t go in there and pretend empathy and pretend vulnerability. I mean, because you can. People will be able to suss that out if it’s not authentic right off the bat, and then it doesn’t do anything. You know what I mean? 

Sam Harvey:
100 and I. I mean, I had to have had these experiences in order to be authentic. I am a little bit done with the experiences now. I’m like, okay, are we good? But I do wonder what’s next. And so, like, yeah, I think, you know, it’s this kind of learning and going, oh, man. Like, because, you know, Sam, seven and a half years ago, wouldn’t have ever stood up and been this way. I think he wanted to be, but it was kind of thrust upon me, and so. Okay, cool. And then I. I’d interestingly learned about sharing vulnerability vulnerably prior to getting sober. And then I was like, oh, it’s like, you know, it’s like the discovery of, like, a bun and a piece of beef, right? You’re like, what an idea. I just put that away. And then somebody’s like, and here’s another experience. That’s the cat up. There you go. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right? 

Sam Harvey:
I’m just wondering what the cheese is. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, this is a. This isn’t the way I want to ask the question. This isn’t the question I want to ask, but maybe you can read through it. Gosh, this is. I don’t mean to be self effacing Sam. Something. Sometimes I think I’m just such a terrible interviewer because I don’t have all the right questions, but I think you know what I’m talking about. How do you balance showing vulnerability? You just talked about that being the strong thing. You know, the empathy and the vulnerability. How do you balance that with maintaining strength as a leader? 

Sam Harvey:
Great question. Firstly, you’re a great interviewer because you make me feel comfortable. And that’s the best thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
God bless you. Thank you for saying that. 

Sam Harvey:
So strength and vulnerability, I, I don’t think the two are different. So I think that what I think you’re referring to as strength there is, and correct me if you if I’m wrong, is how do you be like a directional, purposeful leader and like, you know, make sure that everybody’s like, hey, you know, you’ve got to listen to me kind of thing. Correct me if I’m wrong here. But I think there’s an incredible strength in little micro vulnerabilities, like saying things like, I don’t know, what do you think? I need your opinion here. Come give me your opinion. You’ve got a better brain on this than me. Please come help me. So these little micro vulnerabilities are a brilliant way to kind of bring garner trust from those around you every day without having to. To overshare. You know, you’re just kind of going, hey, come help me. I don’t know everything here. And that is an incredible strength because you’re growing a team around you. Right? And you know, I’m pretty sure you read this article too, the in Praise of the Incomplete leader. Right? The sooner we admit that we are not complete as leaders and that, you know, the way to be a good leader is to lead within first and know that you don’t know everything and understand yourself, then the better, in my opinion. 

Jeff Johnson:
And it’s. And that’s all wrapped up in courage, Sam. It all is stepping out in your true self. So you’re an international person by your own definition. You know, you’ve been a lot of places. Do you think, do you think courage is the same globally? Do you find courage exhibited the same everywhere? Is it the same in Dubai as it is in. Well, you haven’t blessed me by coming to the great state of Iowa, God’s country yet. Yet. That’s right. But you’ve Been to Chicago, you’ve been. Oh, you’ve been all over the United States. You’ve been to Australia, New Zealand. You’ve been on all the different continents. Is courage the same? Is it different? 

Sam Harvey:
I think so. It’s a really good question. But I mean, if. If courage is doing something that is a bit scary. Well, if knowing something’s a bit scary and doing it anyway, then, yeah, I think that knows. No. No boundaries. Right. It’s. It’s just going. Staring something in the face and going, okay, I don’t want to do this, but I’m going to do it anyway. And being. And sometimes it takes many different forms, obviously, but I think the sentiment is the same would be my suggestion. What are your thoughts? 

Jeff Johnson:
I think so. I think it’s the same. And I think it’s like, I’m glad you flipped this back on me because I hadn’t really thought about my answer, but I may answer it like this. Courage is like the diamond, you know, zero entropy. It’s a perfect state of being. Courage is the thing indivisible. It’s just courage. But when you go to different parts of the world, it’s like you’re moving that diamond around and you’re seeing the shimmer and the reflection just from different angles and different vantage points. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like when I travel around, which we’ve been blessed to do a bunch, courage even gets more beautiful because I see courageous people in the uk, I see courageous people in Africa. I see courageous people here at home. And. Yeah. So it gives me just a different perspective on it, I think, if that makes sense. 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah. And I think you’ve just articulated it beautifully. So thank you for adding that to my attempt at answer. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Give me a. Give me one or two people that exemplify courage for you, either historical figures, people in the past, people that, you know right now, colleagues. 

Sam Harvey:
I have. I had a couple of very courageous grandparents, one of whom was in the Second World War, and he. He was fighting in North Africa and he told. All he did was tell funny stories about it. Right. Like, you know, to go through that. And just like, all he would tell. Because he was bald, right? My grandfather, he was bald. And he would. All he would say to me was, like, do you know how I lost my hair? I’m like, how? And he’s like, well, because I was in the sand in North Africa, I, like, dragged my head along the sand and that’s where my hair went. I’m like, reflecting on that now you’re like, dude, that must have been traumatizing in the extreme. And all he would do was laugh. He was just a nice man. So that to add to that, my grandmother, so his wife, she was a firefighter in Bethnal Green in East London in the war. So. Wow. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Mad. 

Sam Harvey:
And they. So East London was decimated in the war. And my family, my father’s family, in 1955, took a boat from Glasgow to Dunedin, which is now where my parents live in New Zealand. Took them three months to get there. So that’s pretty courageous, too. So, yeah, I think, and I’ll add to that, not to miss them out, but my mother’s family also immigrated to Australia in 1970. Right. And so there’s this, I think there’s this huge amount of courage, and I think it’s been. The world is so much closer now that it’s so much easier to do. Right. Like, I could, I can get home and, you know, if mum or dad need me, I could be there tomorrow. Right. They didn’t have that. My, my grandmother, when she arrived in New Zealand, her mother passed away. Nothing she could do about it. That’s it, you know, like, she was 1956 or 1957, her mother passed away. Cool. Okay. Don’t get to see my mum off. And so, you know, like, we. Yeah, there’s this huge amount of, I think, courage from my ancestors, my, you know, my living ancestors who were, who came, took themselves to the new world to give us better lives. Right. And I think, yeah, I mean, it’s so easy to forget that. And I think I probably do a really bad job of remembering it, but I’m glad you asked me that question, because those people spring to mind immediately. 

Jeff Johnson:
Does that, does that bolster you? I mean, when you think about your people being courageous, does that redound to you or how does that call out courage in yourself? 

Sam Harvey:
Yeah, for sure. It bolsters me. And I think, you know, I have an incredibly stable family situation because of all of the work that my grandparents and my parents did. Allow me to go and be this, like, ridiculous entrepreneur that flits around from country to country, like, you know, trying to make his dent on. Trying to make a dent on the planet. Right. And if I didn’t have that, like, I, I, yeah, I, I don’t think I’d be able to do what I do. Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I always give myself license because I, I, I say to my listeners, I only invite really brilliant people on this podcast. So I, I give myself License to ask him really tough questions. So here’s another tough question for you, Sam. What’s. What’s your purpose here? From my. From my Christian. From my Christian worldview. Why did God send you here? What are you here to do? 

Sam Harvey:
Oh, that’s such a good question. I actually, I’m prepared for this because I had this very conversation this morning. So one of my mentors, a lady named Louise Mara, who. She is brilliant, and she does a lot of work, actually, in the States, and I think it’s called the Collective Change Group. So my purpose here is to enact change, and that is through my experiences, but also by holding a mirror up to those who don’t know they need to change yet to help them see change. And so the way we do that is. Is. Is to. How. Through corporate behavior change programs. But the whole purpose behind it is giving people just a little bit more enjoyment in their workplace. And so if we can do something like that, then. Then that’s a win for me. Right. And I get the warm fuzzies when, like I said, these CEOs that I’m. I’ve been working with for, excuse me, six months, say the vulnerability levels that you have taught us or that you’ve helped us feel are second to none. And that’s. That’s it for me. Right. Is. Is that feeling. So, yeah, that’s. Yeah, like, I’m gonna. I’m called to do it. It’s not easy, and it has made my life difficult in many ways, but I do want to keep pushing for change, and I want to keep going bigger, right? Like, I’m gonna go, okay. Like, my. The thought of my mind is governments. So I don’t know yet, but that’s, you know, big, hairy, audacious goal. 

Jeff Johnson:
I think people. I think people put up a lot of fronts. I mean, I’m not telling you, I’m not trying to wade into your neck of the woods, Sam, but I think people put up a lot of fronts and want to project something that may not be true. And so I think it’s such a valuable thing to be able to teach them to tap into, you know, that empathy and to be vulnerable. And I’m grateful that God put you here to. To do it. Wow, Sam, you’re such a blessing to me. I think I want to leave it there, except for it gives some advice to our listeners. People that are maybe having a hard time tapping into that vulnerable, empathetic place where they’re putting on a brave face, but they’re not the brave leader. Yet how do you encourage them to get down to that real self? 

Sam Harvey:
Go to the quiet and, and just start small, right? So by that I mean, you know, if you’re got an internal theater going on, an internal battle that’s saying I shouldn’t do that, Go somewhere quiet and go think and reflect. And when you’re in the quiet and place that you, that gives you calm, your answers come to you would, I imagine, call that God speaking to you. And, and I have something similar, right. We, we talk a different God language, but it’s the same thing, in my opinion. And so it’s that, so do that and then start small, right? Like, you don’t have to do. I, I did another podcast today, actually, with my, I was recording some for us. My good friend Martin Kane, who, he’s like, I’m going to use his analogy. It was like being vulnerable and being brave can be a symphony orchestra where you do the crash, or it can just be the smallest little violin and just if you’re not sure, start with the violin. Go to the place of quiet, get clarity on what it is that you want to do, and start with the violin. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. Well put. Sam Harvey, a man of great courage, certainly a braver leader, and I’m a better man for knowing you. Thank you so much for being with us today, Sam. 

Sam Harvey:
Likewise, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. 

Outro:
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