Courageous Crossroads with KG: Confidence in God Through Every Season

KG is a South African pastor, husband, and father whose life reflects a deep and hard-won confidence in God. Raised without a Christian upbringing, he came to faith through the witness of his cousin, was drawn into church community, and ultimately pursued theological training at Baptist Theological College in Johannesburg. Now serving in ministry in Limpopo, KG brings together pastoral conviction, thoughtful humility, and a moving personal story shaped by obedience, sacrifice, and grace. In this episode of Courageous Crossroads, recorded on a back porch in Shikwaru, South Africa, KG shares his remarkable journey to Christ, his call into ministry, his courageous decision to marry his wife despite cultural and financial obstacles, and the beautiful story of becoming a devoted father to his stepdaughter, Rato. Centered on his simple but powerful definition of courage as “confidence in God,” this conversation is a warm,
honest, and faith-filled testimony about trusting the Lord through family tension, calling, marriage, and everyday acts of obedience.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out and courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Courageous Crossroads podcast. Now I’m talking to you from South Africa. I can’t wait for you to hear my next guest. He’s a gentleman that I just happened to meet on this trip. My family comes back and forth to South Africa and the United States quite a bit. And we’re lucky enough to get to know a lot of people around here. And I’m a new friend and he’s a pastor and I got to talk to him over dinner and invited him to be on the podcast. And he was gracious enough to carve out the time. This episode is actually done in two separate settings. So if you sense a little bit of separation between the beginning of the interview and the end of the interview, that’s why. But KG is a remarkable man. We got to know him and his daughter while his wife was off taking care of some business things. And what an amazing guy. And he’s got a lot to say about Courage from a different perspective. So without further ado, here is my friend KG. Okay, well, I am with my new friend KG sitting on a back porch in Chiquaru. In South Africa, KG, thank you so much for being on the program today. I really appreciate it.

KG: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, looking forward to it. So Danielle was over last night and you said you got one daughter, one child?

KG: Yes, you want to.

Jeff Johnson: And how old is Rato?

KG: She’s 12. Okay. But she’s 10 in 13 in September. But whenever she says you ask her age, she always says, I’m 10 in 13. Like she can’t wait to 10 in 13. It even messes with me because when someone asks me, I’ll hold you, see, I have to think and pause for a moment.

Jeff Johnson: So she’s 12. She wants you to know that 13 is coming.

KG: Yes, coming.

Jeff Johnson: When’s her birthday?

KG: September the 4th.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Well, she’s got a little ways to wait. So she’s really back. Yeah, 13th, 11th. Okay, so you and I got a chance to meet. And we got to meet Rato a couple of nights ago. Had another friend’s house, lovely to meet you.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And then Danielle bumped into you guys last night.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: I know that your wife is away. She’s on business.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: Taking care of some things.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: And so you were so funny talking about feeding your daughter and all this stuff. And so Danielle came home last night and she said, Jeff, we’ve got to have them over for supper tonight. And I said, what’s going on? And she said, he’s so worried, bringing his hands. He’s got one more night to try to find something to feed his daughter.

KG: So when I spoke to your wife yesterday, she reached out to me and I said, we just get in pizza and we’re back. Well, no, we’re back home. And I said, that’s what we eat in 49. That’s what she’s having for lunch tomorrow at school. And when she came back, she ate pizza. So it’s all pizza. And the good thing is with the past few days with my wife not being around. We’ve got invites from friends. And that was helpful. I can cook. But when my wife is here, she’s the master chef.

Jeff Johnson: Is she a good cook?

KG: Yeah, very good cook. Yeah, definitely. So I think that is discouraged me from cooking.

Jeff Johnson: So South Africa cuisine baffles me because I have not been able to figure out all of the spices and everything. What’s the thing that your wife makes that you absolutely love?

KG: Mint. Mint.

Jeff Johnson: So just say what that is.

KG: So, mint, it’s meat. And you could say it’s shredded. I’ve never really tried to think how it’s made. But you could think of meat that is shredded. And sort of like meat that you see in a vase. Or a sausage. And then it’s just not in a sausage. So she cooks that. And she can cook it in different ways. Sometimes you’ll put a lot of gravy into it. Sometimes it will just be like that. Dry then we have salads around it. And she will cook it with different things. Pop, do you have pop?

Jeff Johnson: Yes, pop, of course.

KG: Yeah, you can have it with pop. But most people like to have it with spaghetti.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

KG: So mint has spaghetti. Yeah, so I love her mint. Well, not only her mint, but I think I’ve had to figure out if there were to ask me if there’s one thing your wife could cook for you every day. Mint, food, tea, that. Because she can cook a whole lot of things. Sometimes she just comes with something new and I’m like, we’ve never had this before. And all this into it is like when I compliment your food and I say this is really good. It’s like the other one. That’s not. But that’s how good it is. Because the next thing you cook another thing is like, oh, this is good as well. This is good or better than the last thing.

Jeff Johnson: Well, that’s wonderful. So, um, is this your daughter likes the same thing? The men’s?

KG: Ah, my daughter likes a lot of things. She would probably come with me to Mokopani and eat the McDonald’s. Yes, she. For sure. The one thing that came to mind is it’s not food, but she likes watermelon McFee’s drink that you get.

Jeff Johnson: Watermelon McFee’s.

KG: McFee’s. So that’s what the colleagues are. McFee’s. Yeah, McFee’s. So it’s a drink made with watermelon and acid, of course. And acidic, I mean. And there’s a fist to it when you drink it apparently. So she loves that. Anytime and dank wings. The ones that you get at KFC, they are danked in a sauce. It’s very nice.

Jeff Johnson: Dunged hot wings. Oh, like hot wings. I love. So in the States, we call them buffalo wings.

KG: Okay.

Jeff Johnson: Is that to say they don’t call them buffalo wings?

KG: We do have that. It’s a spicy hot kind of sauce. Well, buffalo is just for wings. But in terms of sauces, depends now on what you want. Okay. You could get depends also that as student that you go to. But yeah, we do have buffalo wings. We also have chicken wings. So. I love all of it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. You know, I was telling you about my weight before we started.

KG: Oh, yeah.

Jeff Johnson: So you could tell. I love to eat. Yeah. So, okay. Well, it’s so wonderful to have you on the podcast KG and we. Here at the courageous crossroads, we settle on the topic of courage in general. But we come down to the one question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? So I’ll ask you that question here in a minute. But beforehand, I think the audience needs to get to know you a little bit. So we just met and I was just taken with you and your daughter. So I’m so grateful to have you over here.

KG: Thank you.

Jeff Johnson: The thing I know about you is that you’re a pastor.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: You’re a great dad and a wonderful husband too. I know that about you.

KG: Yeah. But can you please tell? I’d like to do the look for that. Yeah. Yeah. Amen.

Jeff Johnson: Well, can you tell our listeners a little bit about you where you come from, what you do, your family. That sort of thing.

KG: Yeah. Awesome. So I’ll try to make it short. Because I realized I enjoyed conversations with you. So we could go on.

Jeff Johnson: Yes. Which is great.

KG: Everyone knows me as KG. But my full name is Chalema. Spell it K-G-A-L-E-M-O. And you pronounce it Chalema. It’s a rough sound. Chalema. So it’s not. So you don’t put effort when you say it. For us it’s natural, Chalema. Yeah. But someone who’s not familiar with our language will struggle a bit and will try to make emphasis on the rough sound. Yeah. Which just comes natural to us. Chalema. And say name. Ramalato. But I love it when everyone calls me KG. Because even if we meet for the first time, the next time when we meet you don’t struggle to figure out my name again. Because you don’t remember that. KG. Yeah. Easy to remember.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I mean, even Jeff. Jeff is a very popular name.

KG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So yeah. So of course you would know by now in South Africa. We have provinces. I like you guys have states. So I don’t know what’s the equivalent of a province to America. But I’m from Chalding. That’s one province. And many people might know Johannesburg.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

KG: So Johannesburg is a city in Chalding. And I was born in Pretoria. So it’s another city in Chalding.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

KG: So Pretoria and the suburb that I grew up in, it’s a trejville. So there’s a lot of names that are probably new to you.

Jeff Johnson: I love it. I love it. I got Johannesburg in Pretoria.

KG: Yes. And we’re in, as we’re speaking, we are nearest to the town of Mokopani.

Jeff Johnson: Yes.

KG: And that’s in, am I saying it correctly, the province of Limpopo?

Jeff Johnson: 100%.

KG: Okay. Yes. So you’re spot on there. So basically Limpop is not far from Chalding. So where we are now, if we were to drive to my house, we are two hours, 35 minutes away. Which is not bad. Because I’ve had people mention in the States, because I’m just to say this as well. You know, I would always think of the States in terms of when someone says, I’m in Texas, someone says, I’m in New York. I’m thinking they’re close States, you know, yeah, but I know in your mind, always like, you have long ways to rest. Yeah. Until now, I got to have conversations with people who come from those places. And then they give you a tier picture of what that looks like. So I’m like, okay, so Limpopo, how things not bad. Yeah. So to a two hour, 35 minutes away, that’s where I was born and bred. I went to my primary school there, high school there. And I’m just trying to figure out the timeline in terms of what to say, major events. And I studied sports administration when I finished with high school. And I did a certificate and I graduated with a certificate. And how I came to know the Lord was through my cousin called Given Machigina. And this was between the year 2011, 2012, around that time.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Well, I was not recording or keeping records, but I can remember clearly that Jenny I had with him. So at that point, we done with high school. Did you think was your family a Christian family?

KG: No, we raised a Christian family. I think that’s important that I mentioned of my family. It’s not Christian. I was not raised Christian. Never went to church in my life. If two times probably have been to church was because of like an Easter event and someone invites me. And they say, just come, we have in some special service at church. But that was it.

Jeff Johnson: So it wasn’t a different faith. It was just agnostic.

KG: Yeah. Well, there’s some who hold to a different faith. Yeah, but it was never really practiced. So it’s only of we belong to this sect, but it was never practiced where I can say I want to follow that. Even though I didn’t know what it looked like.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

KG: So church was not a big deal, basically. So I don’t know if you’ve heard of that CC.

Jeff Johnson: You have.

KG: Yeah. So my family definitely they identify if they were to look at a religious institution that would be that CC for them. So and it’s mostly it’s for keeping your membership with them. They are devout that CC followers and people who practice and believe in the leader and the doctrine and all that entails with that CC.

Jeff Johnson: So I think that’s a yeah. That’s an interesting thing to just make note of because there’s a lot of people that profess Christianity, but they do show up on Christmas and Easter. And you know, it’s wool sweaters and popluck and you know that sort of thing, but it’s not really a devout faith per se.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And the same with people of the Jewish tradition. You know, sometimes I would think, well, if you’re Jewish, you’re devout. Everybody is devout and not necessarily so. There are some people that are ethnically Jewish. They were raised that way.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: So that’s the same thing with you.

KG: This is a hundred percent. I mean, even in the area that I grew up in, you have a, it was not only my household, but you have a lot of people. And how do you know if this person is a CC person or member? They were specific uniform brown khaki and they have a badge. It’s green. She’s probably showing some pictures when we done later. And so with that, the galia and the badge, you know, this person goes to ZCC or fellowships there and ZCC. And we had a lot of them around the neighborhood, but as you said, it’s never impacted me, especially in the guards to faith and relationship with God. And there are many reasons as to why, but overall, there was never a big influence in terms of relationship with God. A lifestyle of going to church and being with other members of the faith, whatever faith it is. So that was not a reality in my life at that point. So we, I’m with Giver Maschikina. We probably four years out of high school and we just trying to figure out life, careers. And at this point, Giver is studying his professional football career. So it’s at the early stage. So he’s away from home. He’s part of an academy and he always comes back home whenever there’s a break. So this one time he’s coming back from the academy and there’s a break. Just an ordinary day. And I just decided, you know what? Let me go visit him.

Jeff Johnson: So who’s given?

KG: Given is my cousin. He’s a son to my dad’s older sister. So we didn’t stay in the same houses. So he was like 15 minutes away drive. So I just walked to the house. But I just decided, let me go visit him. Then I get to my granny’s place. That’s where he stayed. And that’s where my dad grew up. And by the way, my dad and my mom never got married. So I stayed in my grandmother’s house with both my mom and his siblings. So that’s the set up. So I was the only grandchild and the way seven siblings ate including my mom.

Jeff Johnson: Were you close with your dad or your dad was not a part of your life?

KG: At that point, I was not close. I knew I had a dad, but we were not close.

Jeff Johnson: He wasn’t around.

KG: He wasn’t around. And if I see him, it’s a one time thing where he’s there. He just bought stuff for me and then that’s it. So I can remember, we’ve lived with Liza on point. When we’re going to a new grade and of course they call everyone on the list. And they’re just asking, tell us who you are, your name. Then they move your father and your mother. At that point, I realized, I think I concluded and I said, I don’t ever did. And I said that in class. That’s how poor it was. You know, our relationship. But later in life, of course I got to understand, you know, adults have issues.

Jeff Johnson: Yes.

KG: And sometimes you can blame the parent who’s not present. But once you understand and see the dynamics of parenting and breakups, you start to see, okay, understand? I see a lot of dynamics. Right now I do have a good relationship with my dad. In fact, he’s married to my stepmom. I also have a good relationship with my stepmom. And from the outside, I have three siblings. So I’m the only child to my dad and my mom. And with his wife, which is my stepmom, they have other three kids. But we have a great relationship. So in fact, both my mother, my stepmom and my mother-in-law, they’ve been to one place. Where they sit, talk, we’ve even took them out for a massage. So that’s how it has worked out. Yeah, so grateful for that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, yeah.

KG: So yeah, but to give, I think this is important that I share with you. So when I get to my granny’s place, guess what? I’m not sure, they are watching. Passion of Christ, the movie. So I don’t know anything about the movie. I’ve never heard of the movie. So given showing them the movie, and as you show them the movie, I get to, when I get to my granny’s house, it’s at the point of ending the movie. Then, given this side, since you’re here, let me start the movie again. And I was like, sure, I’m here to visit you. So anything you do, whatever you want to do. I’m Dave, yeah. Then he showed me the movie. As he showed me the movie, he’s explaining some major parts. And I can remember clearly when Jesus, the actor, was now taken to get the beating and sketched and all that. And when he was claimed, then he’s explaining why all that is being done to him. And he said, it’s because of our sins. I’m like, what does that mean?

Jeff Johnson: That’s the first time you’d heard that.

KG: Yes, that’s the first time. But he’s explaining as if I would understand these things. And by the way, the last time when I saw him was not Christian. He was not using any Christian vocabulary. He’s never spoke about the Lord. We spoke about other things except God. So I think the other thing that intrigued me about him is I could see something different about him. But I can’t figure it out. But I like it. Because he seems more accessible, I mean, because already, for him being where he was, he’s sort of like a celebrity. He’s doing well, he’s studying a professional career. So now I even have more access to him. But I’m seeing a different person and the characteristics that I’m seeing. I love them and I’m enjoying them. So it tells me Christ has been beaten for a sense. Then of course he’s explaining what that looks like, why? But I can vividly remember. At that point, it felt real. It’s like I believed him. Of course I believed him. But I was like, why do I believe in him? Why do I believe this is true? Then after the movie, he starts showing me the scriptures. We go to the summon on the mount. He says, God wants us to pray. God wants us to fast. You know, he’s not even deep, exegyptical or biblical theology. Just basics. Just giving you the story. Someone on the mount, then I’m like, wow, this is amazing. The content is the first time I come across this. I’m like, this is amazing. I’ve always had a big belief of God. But I could never pinpoint which God. So at that point, my heart is starting to believe. And I’m like, I think I believe what you’re saying. I think this happened in Houston. Christ is real. All these things that you’re explaining about Christ are real. And of course, from that day now, I went back home. I could even sleep over. Then whenever I was around, I’m with him. Because he always says something new to say to me about Christ. And now the music is changing now. From secular hip-hop now, we listen to Christian rap. And I can remember the first pastor that I had. He shared a clip with me from Paul Washa.

Jeff Johnson: I realized later that that’s deep. That’s a deep dive. I mean, reformed, theologically astute. I’m like, yo. But at the time, I didn’t realize.

KG: And of course, Paul Washa, that clip you’re speaking about marriage. And he gave an exaggerated scenario. And he says, if you’re a husband, and there was a shipwreck, and your mom is on a plank, your daughter’s on a plank, your wife is on a plank. And you could only save one. Who would you save? And he says, you save your wife. And I was like, this is new. Like, everything is like new. And I’m like, what is this? This is a different way of thinking, of looking at life, marriage.

Jeff Johnson: It was all marriage.

KG: It was all marriage. And at the time, I’m not even going to teach.

Jeff Johnson: I’m going to jump in and ask you a question. Because this is so intriguing. So CS Lewis makes a point that either God’s everything or he’s nothing. There’s no middle ground. He’s not a good wise teacher. He’s not a good friend. He’s not a close confidant. That sort of thing. He never gives us that option. So either you have to say he’s the God of the universe. Or he’s the devil from hell. Or maniac or something like that. Whatever. It sounds to me like when you got switched on about your cousin, you immediately went to the, okay, if God’s everything, then that redounds to all of this reality. And so I can see how it was that.

KG: Yeah, definitely. And I have a funny story to tell you. In that season as well. So I had a girlfriend. And we’re getting to all kinds of shenanigans. What? Immediately like as the show me the scriptures and the moral standard. We need to uphold how we need to care ourselves and live our lives. And just the worldview of sexuality. I remember going to my girlfriend. Now saying to her, whatever we’re doing, we need to stop. And it only, you know, a lot of things in retrospect. You think and you’re like, I could have handled it in a better way. But I was so ready, Carlos said, we need to stop. I mean, you can imagine for us like she’s shocked. Who’s this guy? I mean, we’ve been doing all these things. Yesterday was fine. And today is not fun. Hello, sudden. And then I said to her, we need to kneel down and pray. And I prayed our father with her. But I can imagine shame. She was so shocked.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Wow.

KG: So, so but of course, the relationship never worked out. Ten Sawa and we broke up. But her cousin was dating my uncle. And my uncle’s friend was a Christian. Not what, sorry. He’s a Christian. And he’s the one who invited me to church. So this is now after my cousin, you know, whenever it’s around, I go visit. We sit, we pray. We fast. I can even remember we were so radical. We were even praying for our wives by then.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

KG: We were so grateful for our wives. But I was not going to church. Because he came for the holidays. Then he would go back to the academy. And then as he goes back to the academy, I don’t have other Christians or a community around me. So obviously now I’m struggling between this newfound faith and life in the society. But I already could tell the difference. In fact, I even thought I would have a career as a DJ. Of course, I would play music, with parties, with friends, and you know, we’ll get raudi and all that. So now I had to struggle. I’m like, is that a lot pleased with me going to parties? But of course you tried to reason like, but God understands I need this money. So, but this is the image or believer in me. Right. You know, and at some point slowly but surely I’m making those decisions that are not in line with what God demands. And I’m like, okay, I don’t think this is working. So what helped me now was now the next step into my work with Christ is the tableau. The gentleman I mentioned was dating my ex girlfriend, cousin. He said, come to church. And at this time, he doesn’t even know if I’m a Christian or not. He just invited me. And the first invite I didn’t go and not that I didn’t want to just, I just forgot. You know, then we met, we came across paths again and then he invited me. And I said, okay, I’ll come the next Sunday. Next Sunday, I get ready, put on my formal shirt, chinos and formal shoes. His house was on the next trip. A few blocks away. So I walked to his house and then we drove together with his dad to church. And from that Sunday, I started going to church in Bresandi. I started going to church in Bresandi.

Jeff Johnson: And that gentleman was compelling or you just felt like you needed to be there or you were learning a lot.

KG: I think you know when you find your people, like for me, it was like that. Because at that point, even the pasta, the Sinia pasta, the lit pasta was not present. Majority of the church had gone to a conference. So only a few people were left. And it’s not people who always get involved in the program. So I wouldn’t say that someone was compelling because I can’t even remember what was preaching. But I think for me, it was more, I just found my people. You know, it was like people who believed the same thing I believe.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Community.

KG: And the next Sunday, majority of the church members, people who are usually in the program and who are more the pillars, you know, they are more mature. I’m like, oh, okay, they are men who believe this. They believe that purity is important. Sex before marriage is a sin. So for me, it’s like an amendment observer. If I get into a place, I don’t know people. I just keep quiet and observe. But if someone is open and I feel I can be vulnerable with them, I easily open up. But I’m an observer. So I started listening to people as they talk. I’m like, oh, he believes this. They believe this. So that very same church started getting committed, started getting involved. If they need help with anything, I remember my pastor saying we need someone who can help us with the computer. There’s a man. So I had just, I was killed a bit in the world of IT, but not deep knowledge. So I would come during the week because I was not working. So just go, how about the church of them with the PC? Next day, I’m setting up an email for my pastor. He was older. I mean, his late 60s. So for him, setting up an email is like a big deal. It’s like, yo, you’re talented. You’re gifted. So I’m sort of becoming like valuable to the church in that sense. And he’s using me more.

Jeff Johnson: Thank you people and you.

KG: Yeah. And utility and all of that. And sometimes random you just ask me, can you please just research this for me and tell me what is about? Because now I started hanging around the church. If there’s a conference, I’m there. Weekly Bible study. I’m there. Weekly prayer. I’m there. Sunday I’m there. So it’s like once I get to do something, I commit. That’s how I am.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: Yeah, I go all in. So of course, even with friends, we’re starting to cut out some friends, but all this is a journey. Took some time.

Jeff Johnson: Took time, but I struggle between, oh, this is not good company. This is not helping me with my faith.

KG: The very same church, I think, two years after I was working at a retail store as a cashier. When my pastor, because I remember having a conversation with him, and I said, I think our church needs more teachers. And at that point, I don’t even know what’s the difference. For me, I kept asking myself, because some people when they come and they preach, they’ll read the text, give you a title, but they don’t speak about the title or they’ll veer off from the title. So I’m wondering why they’re even reading the text, you know?

Jeff Johnson: I’m not even theologically astute or right at all, but you’re clearly hungry and you’re warning more.

KG: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I would say I’m a thinker, you know, that has a saying, I’m an observer. So I think through things, I’m that guy always asks, why? Why is this? Why does this exist? Why are we doing this? You know, why? Okay, you read this. So I was excited. Maybe the text is speaking about the heavenly places, but you’re speaking about faith. And I’m like, so I want to know about this heavenly places. Why is it there? So that was the curious me.

Jeff Johnson: Yes, I think the right way is curious.

KG: So I have conversations with my pastor. And at this point now, I’m more closer to him. We have a good relationship. If he wants me to run in errands, I’m there. I’m like a trusted right hand man, you know?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: Yeah, to the pastor. So, and also because I’m skilled, I’m that guy, if there was an opportunity to do something, I’ll do it. I remember at some point, I did a relationship with a mechanical engineering and I worked at Toyota for some time, but only through the ownership when it lapsed, we stopped working. So my pastor is driving at Toyota. So I’ll be helpful in regards to something like if you need to adjust the handbrake or change whatever, or change, basic stuff.

Jeff Johnson: You’re setting up emails.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: You’re working on cars.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: You’re saying you need anybody to preach.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: You’re you’re ball in it.

KG: Well, at this time, I’m not preachy.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

KG: But I remember my pastor when I said, I think we need to teach us because so at this on this side of life, I can tell some people are not trained well. And this also touches to my master’s paper. So my proposal, first thought, so my proposal is about exposing and teaching expositary preaching to untrained church ministers towards building healthy, sustainable churches. Because we have a lot of pastors who are behind the poopy badger, not trained. And I think it’s a rameche who says it’s only 5% in the world of pastors who are trained and they are practicing only 5% in the world.

Jeff Johnson: And that’s a big that’s a big number. I would not have thought it was that low.

KG: Yeah, 5% of pastors are trained. But the rest of the 95, they’re not trained. So I’m interested in preaching, I’m in ethics, I’m still growing as well in that area. I’ve been arrived, but definitely that’s an area of interest for me. But my pastor, back to my pastor, two years into the church, he says, I think you have a gift. So I want to take you to school, now I’m asking myself, school. And as I said, if you say, does it not put you into to do this KG? If I can see it, benefiting me, whether it’s me, my family, helping with my future, I’m on it. So I’m working as a Kasia bottom part time. So my pastor says, 2014, he says, 2015, I want to take you to school. And I said, okay, I’m residing from work, I’m going to school. Easy as that. So I can remember, because for me, if it’s school, I’m taking it. I don’t know where it’s going to take me, but for the fact that it’s school, you can say no to Lenny. You know, right.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, that’s a great opportunity.

KG: And I remember in the interim between work and now applying for seminary, there was, like I wouldn’t say a friend, but you know when you’re familiar with people in your area. So this one guy, we grew up together in the same area. So he says to me, so what are you going to do next year? And I said, I’m going to study theology. It’s like, yeah, what? Theology. So he says, are you serious? Are you sure? I said, yeah. So at this point, now I’m sure in my faith with Christ, everything I’m doing, I’m intentional about growing in the Lord. You know, and he said, man, why don’t you try and study something that you know you’ll get a job for, get a job because you know, you know us, our age mates. I mean, you need to find a job, you need to have money, you need to provide because if you’re going to get a girl, you don’t have money, you can provide them, you’re not going to make it work. So basically it was discouraging me.

Jeff Johnson: Right. I’m going to say for sure.

KG: For sure. Yeah, but it wasn’t a friend or someone close that I could really take that advice and say, okay, it was more, you know, like, bodies, people, not body of friend, but people that you know in the community. And you just know each other well.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: Yeah, but we’re not friends. We’re not close friends. At that point, I already made up my mind. I’m going to seminary. So I studied at Baptist Theological College, South of Africa, which is in Johannesburg, Renbeck. So I did four years with them and I got my honors degree with them. And so my pastor at the time, when he’s now in enrollee, as I said, I always ask questions. I’m like, so where’s the money going to come from now? Because I know the education is not free. And now I’m seeing the fees, the fee structure. At least you can pay this much and then you can get enrolled. Then now I can see the situation at our church. Finances are not strong. We’re not, you know, it’s, we’re not at a place where even my pastor was getting like a decent salary.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

KG: So now, masking myself, how is this going to work out? Or maybe his connections, I don’t know. But I just applied and then he spoke to the church. The church was able to get registration money for me, which was like 3600 rents. I don’t know how you convert that to dollars and what it, how much it would amount to. But we get that fee. I start going to college. So it’s a seminar by day, use the phrase college, the Baptist Theological College. So I’m getting to my first year, Professor Piff, first class biblical study. He says everyone is introducing themselves. I am KG, I’m there, I’m there, I’m there. Then he says, guys, if you’re here to make money, this is the wrong place. Another good beer, lawyer or something that has to do with speaking and engaging with people. You can be, you can be in a church and they can’t pay you well. You can be in a church where they can pay you well. But either way, if you want to make money, this is the wrong place. And I remember I’m like, oh, this is my conversation before. This is my place then. Because at that point, I’m even meeting my peers. You know, it’s like this world keeps opening up of Christianity and faith. Because now, for the first time, I’m hearing this with theology.

KG: I’ve never heard of this phrase, this term. And as I said, even with my local pastors, they were not trained. My pastor did do some theological studies, but at this point, he’s old and he’s never been a strong theologian. So I never got exposed to formal theological studies. But it was for me, with him, my work was more the experience. And just doing life with the people of the church. But theological part only got to get exposure when I got to seminar.

Jeff Johnson: So I’m going to, KG, I’m going to interrupt your story a little bit.

KG: Sure.

Jeff Johnson: Because I got a question I want to ask you about this. What you’re talking about are spiritual acts of faith all along.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Whether you even know that in the beginning or not. You know what I mean? From your cousin inviting you to come over and, hey, we’ll just play the movie again. You’re having this, you know, you could have said no.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: You could have said I’d rather go, you know, hang out with my girlfriend or go do something else instead. But it seems like breadcrumbs, doesn’t it?

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: Like the Lord is just put one thing in front of you and one thing. But the courageous thing that I want to ask you about is it seems like every step of the way was a faithful act of courage to just keep going.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Is that, do you feel like that?

KG: Yes. That’s the kind of story. For sure. Of course, there’s one event that I can take us back to during my years of seminary.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: Of course, those steps as well, were steps of courage. Whether I was intentional or not or knew about it. Apart from later now when now I’m a chore believer. I’m thinking sometimes critically about things that I want to do. Is this a good decision or not? Do you know now that I have a family? Do we sense God’s calling towards this ministry or not? Yeah. But at that point, there were courageous steps, but it’s different now. But I remember meeting my wife. We met 2015 and I’ll just cut the low story short. People only say this two sides to the stories when couples meet. The husband’s side and there’s the wife’s side. But we met 2015 and how we met is she was part of another ministry. And they had a choir and she was singing and part of the leasing us in the choir. So they wanted to match with other youth churches around the area. And so our church also and I was a youth pastor now at that point. 2015 and it’s my first year seminary. So for her, she said it was love at first sight because when she saw me, it’s like, who is this guy? Well, I don’t, she can come and interview at some point. And she can verify if she can confirm that.

Jeff Johnson: Yes. This is KG side of it.

KG: This is KG side of it. But anyway, 2015, we meet around FAB. We just get into each other through the meetings. I’m like, this lady’s nice. I like what she’s doing and we’re talking about a consensus. There’s something that I’m feeling for her. Of course, I can see there’s a response from her. Then after the youth conference that we did together in June, then we started a friendship. Now we’re talking more and she was waking at that point and she’s waking at a hospital. She’s waking night shift. So sometimes I’m under call, I’m taking her through a night shift.

Jeff Johnson: What I’m supposed to study. The echo seminary now.

KG: Yes. I like this lady.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, I get that.

KG: Yes. So sometimes I’m sleeping 3 a.m. Because she’s under a call and she’s waiting. Then she says, OK, we’ll talk. And I’m like, OK, I have class in the morning. So I have to sleep now and wake up. But I managed that. As you can see, I managed to pass. I’m here now. Right? Second year, 2016. Twice of them are 2015. Then we had an official relationship. 2015 and 2016. The next year I engaged there. 2017. Now marriage. This is where I had to make a brave decision. So I don’t know if you’ve heard of La Voila in South Africa.

Jeff Johnson: Yes, I have.

KG: Yes, La Voila.

Jeff Johnson: Yes, La Voila. That is OK. This is what I’m going to tell you what I know about La Voila.

KG: OK.

Jeff Johnson: And you tell me if it’s the truth. So the man and the woman don’t meet the parents yet. But the man has to pay La Voila for the woman that he’s about to marry.

KG: About to marry. Yes.

Jeff Johnson: It’s like a dowry. It’s like a sister.

KG: Sure. Yes, sure. You just explained it nicely in short. But of course, how it’s done may differ from every culture.

Jeff Johnson: A lot of La Voila.

KG: Yes. Or not a special La Voila. Well, the initial process is the same. You’re paying for the woman you’re going to meet. But some people might have different processes of doing it. Some may want cows and money. Some may want gifts. And money, some may want money. But the process is, you’re going to pay.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: Yes. And from many, I would say, go even Africans, not just South Africa, but Africans. It’s like the man is showing that he can take care of his wife and his family. That’s one of the things. Yeah. And of course, the opportunity for families to come together. And as I said, with every cultural group, it will be different. There will be different reasons why. But the idea is, yes, the families are meeting. There are many showing his strength, his capabilities. And there’s other reasons. But here’s me. There’s La Voila that’s needed for my third year. And I’m not working a job. I can say I have a decent salary to save and pay the La Voila. So at this point, I have a good relationship with my mother-in-law to be at that point.

Jeff Johnson: OK. OK.

KG: So my wife gave in a way to my mother-in-law at that point and said, look, please don’t charge this guy crazy amount because you don’t want money to be a inheritance to him marrying me and all that. She had the conversation. And what happens is, you’re not.

Jeff Johnson: That’s interesting that there can be that kind of negotiations behind the scenes. Yes. Mom, I love this guy. Take it easy on him.

KG: Yes. Make this easy for him.

Jeff Johnson: And she says, I’ll do what I’m going to do.

KG: Yes. And usually, as I said, depends on a cultural group. But with times changing as well, now we see even women getting involved in negotiations. Back then, it was only men. So the mother wouldn’t even know what’s happening in the negotiations. So even in this instance, my mother-in-law was not involved in the negotiations. Usually, the uncles are the ones who come and they negotiate from the men’s side and the women’s side. And sometimes, they’ll be like, it’s interesting. I do not disregard everything about Lobola, but some things I do in terms of rituals and all that. But some things are beautiful. I mean, say, I want to marry your daughter. As you come to your house, maybe we did something wrong by the gate. We entered without you giving us permission. Then what will happen is you kick us out of your yard and then we’ll have to pay something. And sometimes they call it Vulam Lom, open in the mouth. So you’ll pay me like maybe a thousand rants. And that will make him happy. And then he can open the gate. He welcomes us. Maybe we can come with a barrel of whiskey and you put it on the table. So you sort of buy your way of acknowledging it and making it right.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: So yeah, it’s beautiful. But anyway, my mother-in-law gave the uncles, my wife’s uncles, the men’s side. Instead of negotiating amounts because sometimes families will start to say a hundred thousand rants. And then we can negotiate. No, our daughter is studied this. Is a doctor we invested in here, we did this and that. So that’s how we value her. And of course, the money can never give real value to the lady.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

KG: But it’s sort of like a starting point. She went to Harvard. She’s a medical doctor. So your son is getting a proper wife. You know, in a sense, you have quotation marks.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

KG: But usually, thinking about it now, you don’t hear them having conversations about the characteristics. In terms of, of course, some cultures, women are vegans. And that also can play a role into other amount and all that. If she has two kids out of wedlock, that also can have an influence on the amount. So at this point, my mother and my wife’s uncles, we want to negotiate. Just tell them we want this amount. That’s it. And they wanted 20,000 rants. So now my wife tells me we’re going to want 20,000 rants. So now my uncles, I give them the day. Then I said, at this point, I’ll be ready. Guess what? I don’t have money. I’m a student. I’m a third year. And in the process, I remember having a conversation with my pastor. There was a communication breakdown at that point. And we, me and my wife approached him and said, we want to get married. And we, then he was not happy about it because there was some rumours in the church that we were going to get married and we’re going to leave the church and take some members and connect the congregants.

Jeff Johnson: So gossip, basically.

KG: So what happened is we had spoken to a few friends and said, look, we’re thinking of taking this step. Would you be able to help us with getting chairs or cake? And we said, but at this point, this is not happening now. We’re just praying about it. We’ll have a sign. And when the sign is there, we’ll tell you. So we didn’t just want to go to my pastor at that point, because if you ask us questions, if you can’t answer them, you’ll think these ones are not serious. This is the mentality we had. We want to go to him when we show. And we can say, no, we have one, two, three in place. Because if you ask me, why are you going to live with your new wife? If I can’t answer this guy, he might be happy that she has. So that was the attitude. But that, I don’t know, I got to my pastor, but didn’t get well to him. So when we had the conversation, there was a breakdown. And unfortunately, we never finished the conversation because I church member, I lost his wife. And so he came and my pastor to leave and go attend that. From there, our communication was a bit sour. Because it seemed like I was not opening up to him about major things that I put in my wife’s. It was like, oh, now that you’re grown up, done this for you, you take you now not involving me. But I tried to make man relationship with him. But why I say this? Because he was one of the people that was going to help me to go through the process. Because there’s one or the other things. But as a Christian and as a black man who was born in South Africa, he will know how to navigate and bring the faith aspect without us getting involved in the other things that are practiced by the family. So at this point, now I don’t have him on my corner. So I’ll really challenge them by what? So me and my wife now, we’re like, are we doing this or not? And took some time and ultimately I said, you know what? Since I want to take big guy decisions, I want to be a man. This is one of them. I need to decide. And I said, no, we’re taking this time. Let’s do it. Of course, we took the decision, we put out a date. Now my father had gifted me with a car. And he’s like, here’s your first car. But it was not the best car. I led a lot with that car. Hey, when oil and water mix, what happens to a car, you get stuck and all that, you know, you fix this, there’s brakes, you fix that. But I lend a lot. But it took us through some tough days. My wife went here to go to work winter time and I could drive it to work and she’s at least warm in the car. So now my dad speaking to him, then he says, okay, since you want to get married, two options, you can keep the car or sell it because it’s like now you’re going to have two wives because the car is taking out money to fix it. So maybe consider selling the car. And I said, oh, it gives me a go. Of course, I want to get married. I’ll sell the car. I sold the car. So I only had half of the money.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Get closer though.

KG: Yes. So I gave my uncle’s the money. That’s what you do. Buy some cakes and all that so that they can take it to the family. Then they get there. They talk. This is the, this is the Lovola negotiation.

Jeff Johnson: Lovola. So it’s the 20,000 Rand.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: It’s what you owe. You got 10,000 Rand for the car.

KG: I got 12 from the car.

Jeff Johnson: You got 12 from the car.

KG: But of course, they came back with 2000 Rand and only paid 10.

Jeff Johnson: Okay.

KG: So but at that point, they didn’t negotiate because they told them, no, we won this amount. That’s it. Which was good for me. And they paid the 10,000. They said, okay, they give me feedback. This is how it went and everything. So basically, my wife, we haven’t done everything. And so we still need to, and still need to pay the 10,000 and do some things, you know, like that culturally, they will practice. Yeah. So I, some anti-blanket and we need to walk in the street. People see and yeah, this, as I said, it’s different from, for different cultural groups. So now, me and my wife, we like, no, maybe we should speak to our parents and tie the knot. And then I can always finish this amount later. Because why should we wait? Because I’ve showed my intentions. Now travel K. So I call my dad, speak to him, says, no, you can’t do that. Culturally, we don’t practice that. So now it’s…

Jeff Johnson: Culturally, you’re not getting married until you’ve paid all those obolars.

KG: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: There’s still another 10 that’s owed. So…

KG: Yeah. And then… The, the, the, the, the, the, the, me. And the brain in me thinking I’m like, I’m in Thedia. I’m going to my fourth year. Not guaranteed I’ll get a church when I’m done or work. So this might take 10 years or it might take long. Because even to get the other amount, I had to sell a car. So, so it means I might not have a wife for some time. And I’m like, wait, but ultimately, whether the money’s the or not, we just need to stand before the Lord and witnesses and commit to this.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: And I’m like, then I had to not think about priorities. We’re like, okay, we tried to talk to parents, family members. They’re not Christian, by the way. So they don’t see it the way we see it. And then me and my wife, like, but ultimately, we try to honor God. So that has to take priority. Yes, I want to finish what I’ve not had. But if this is a hindrance, then it’s not going to work out. So first attempt didn’t work with my dad. Second attempt before I spoke to him, spoke to my mother. And my wife spoke to her mom. And at this point, my wife had that passed away a few years ago and has stepped that also passed away. So there are 13 lifehorses of mother. And so there was the uncles are there, but they are not fully involved. So even with me, at that point, I have a relationship with my dad, but it’s not that true. So someone have always looked up to his mom. She’s the author because she raised me. So I’m like, if I could disappoint everyone else, my mom would be the last person I’d want to disappoint. So if my mom gives me a blessing, I’m doing this. So we spoke to our moms. We took them outside, down the damn said look, we are Christians. We could have done it differently. We could have just stayed together. No one would have had a problem. And that’s the funny part about society. You can live together, have babies and even break up. Nothing wrong. Once you say you want to get married, love all. Familiar fight and break for love all. But when you stay with your daughter for free and nothing and you even leave them and not support their kids, there are no efforts to fight for the right thing.

Jeff Johnson: That’s how funny it is. But that’s it. Send us that.

KG: That’s it.

Jeff Johnson: And always twist things.

KG: Yeah. Upside. So now I’m trying to make it short. Because there’s many details. We’ve gone past that.

Jeff Johnson: But this is a fantastic. This is such a beautiful story. And we’re talking about courage. And we haven’t really breached that topic yet. But you’re describing all of this. Yes. Yeah. Along the way. Which is so beautiful. So pleased.

KG: Yes. Our mothers gave us their blessing. So me and my wife said, okay, are we doing this? Yes, we’re doing this. And my dad comes. Doesn’t come. Whether others agree with us or not. Dr. Terrell, who was our pastoral, at the time my pastoral lecturer, took us through marriage counseling and Professor Piff married us. So on the day when we did the ceremony, we said, okay, let’s do it simple. We had a few friends, two or three friends from my side, my side. Then we told family members, those were interested. We said you could come. Of course my dad didn’t pitch up. Already, I’m violating his authority. So but it was not easy. But I said, you know what? We are honoring God more than anything. And we don’t want to rush and do anything outside of God and what he has said as a standard. So at the same time, my wife is getting a probation at work and it’s in join us back. So we like, it would be upset for it to get a place and then she pays rent when we can get married and we stay together. Then she saves money because already we decided we want to take this journey. So we like, yeah, this will make sense. Then let’s do it. We did it. We tied the knot. Unfortunately, my dad was not there. My mom was there, her mom was there. A few friends. But not many people that we wanted to. Even my pasta at that point is not there.

Jeff Johnson: Wasn’t there?

KG: Yeah. So it was a better sweet moment. Yeah. I’m marrying the woman of my life. But at the same time, some people are the way we envision marriage. You know, like when you celebrate with your loved ones, it’s not ideal exactly as you would have hoped. But we knew we were doing the right thing in the eyes of the Lord. And it’s not because we were pressured or trying to hide something because already the process had begun. In fact, we say late in life, because now we’re going nine years into a marriage. Me and my wife, as we speak. So we say, you know, I realize if I had money then the 2015, I would have married you. That’s it.

Jeff Johnson: What you’re prioritizing for us is God’s mandate for marriage and the love that he authored in your heart and your wife’s heart for one another versus cultural norms, which have a lot of good associated with them too, just as the way you put it already. But you’re still serving for an audience of one. The Lord is the one that you want to. So how is that played out now with all of the family members?

KG: Every on, of course, it was a bit awkward. But I think for us, we’re happy. And because of our faith, because we pleased God, that was everything for us. Yeah. Basically, if I could use the time we didn’t care.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: What others said. Basically, we’re like, feels good to be married and we’re on our God. It felt good for us. Of course, you post pictures, people put pictures. My pastor called me. It’s like, I want you at my office next day.

Jeff Johnson: Oh.

KG: Well, we have a meeting. We talk and say, I think it’s happened. I was disappointed because I tried to. And I think also people at the church, you know, they get in between their relationship. Some would even say, I think you should step down from the youth. It’s not even the pastor telling me. It’s like people are even kicking me out of the church. But the good thing is those relationships are later amended. I mean, I even got to preach at the church, go back and serve. Because I said to them, the church has helped me a lot. I’m willing to serve to give back, you know, and say, thank you for the finances whenever you came through at college.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Right.

KG: Yeah. But, I think ultimately, people, they realize when someone is made up their mind and they realize they can’t get through to them. They just learn to live with it. But to others, it was not an honorable marriage. So to some, we are not even married. They don’t consider us as married. But if you go to the authorities on my face, we are there. The books.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: If you go to God, we are there. Yeah. We strive for him. But of course, it was not done out of a sense of pride. It was more of, we wanted to do that, I think. Prioritizing at what God has said, standards for marriage versus cultural norms. Now, now tell me, you’re married now before you’re done with seminary. Is that true?

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: So you finished seminary and then you get a placement with the church.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: So tell us briefly how that happened.

KG: So while 2017, my third year, because now there’s a rift between me and my pastor, I need to find another church because I’m no longer comfortable, happy to serve. Even when you listen to someone, you feel like, hey, this is an attack. So I’m like, this is not a good place to be in. So we moved. And now that we in Jobak, we look for a church. And so we served at Ruvil Baptist Church, which was closer to where we’re staying. And after that church, then while I was still at Ruvil, I got a call from tribal Baptist Church, which was the first church that I passed that. And the church is in the heart of Jobak. And I remember one pastor friend of mine, given with saying that you guys are the gates of hell.

Jeff Johnson: You mean, it’s that a rough, rough location.

KG: Yes. And the church gave me a contract for a year because financially they were not run off. They could not call a full-time pastor. So I was working at the college at the time doing. So after I finished my fourth year, I, during COVID, I got an opportunity to work with them and call David. So we would renovate the college, paint the flats, accommodation, anything that needed to be done. We would do it. Remember I told you, oh my God, if there’s an opportunity, I’d go for it. And I’m only realizing now. I always did that. But of course, I would think about, because I’d not do everything or think about the opportunity. So I worked with David at the college. And we would do everything. Dry walls, building a wall, mixing cement and, you know, doing all kinds of construction in this county. But on a minimal load though. So as I’m working, that’s when I get a call from Travelle. The one pastor, the one someone who’s working, at least they can give them a salary and you work at someone days or hours. And unfortunately, the contract was for a year. And so with the contract being for a year, I only served there for a year. So they wanted to continue with me, but they couldn’t pay me anymore. That’s the unfortunate part. So they wanted to continue with me. But I said, there was some money left because someone left money for the church in their well. But I said, I think this is not sustainable for the church. Our drada not stay and then we just run out the money. Maybe we can do something with it. Maybe call a pastor every Sunday until things change. And I think at the same time you could see, they didn’t want to change. They were still stuck in the door days because Joe Beck and the Sarandik said, change so much. I think the church is one of the early churches that were built as a Baptist church in South Africa. I think the fed, alien, this is like the 70s, 60s. Yeah, probably even way back, I might be wrong way back, but this was one of the early churches that was built. So now we are out of the church. Then in the period of living the church, of course, me and my wife have always said this motor, whether we are working, getting paid or not, we are Christians, we need to find it home as a church. So we consider going back to our home church where it all started because now my pastor has passed on. So maybe we should go there and say, of course, we see there could be an opportunity to help there.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, I’m trained now.

KG: And so put the theory into practice now. Then in that interim, I get a call from Christ Baptist Church from Copani now in Limbo. And they are looking for a pastor. And while they were looking, they called the college. So because I stuck around the college, I was working around the college. So it was easy to remember my name. So the principal gave them my CV and said, I think this might be, this might be their right guy for the church. And that’s how I got to Limbo. And so we basically I was in Pretoria from when I was in Yang until I went to seminary, stayed in Job at for eight years, and then we moved. Now we’re in Limbo.

Jeff Johnson: And how long have you been pastoring this church?

KG: So now it’s in my fedia.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

KG: Yes, it’s in my fedia.

Jeff Johnson: So yeah. Does that look? See, KG, this is what’s another fantastic thing about you. I asked some people about the elevator pitch kind of story about their background, a putman context, and you get a little tiny snack. You’ve given us a giant meal, and I love it. I mean, I feel like all the listeners feel like they know you now after what we’ve heard. And that’s fantastic. I mean, there’s a lot of courage along the way. Let me, we don’t have a ton of time left. And if we need to extend this to a second interview, we’ll go ahead and do that. But I do want to ask you about the topic of courage, which you have exemplified in your Christian walk. Period. I mean, the family that you were raised in and then venturing out and finding a new faith and then going to seminary, which seemed like that wasn’t in the cards for you. And then stepping out to marry your wife.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: Because you felt like God was calling you to do that. It was the right thing to do, and then it went against some cultural norms.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: I mean, all of that stuff. And then pastoring a church and then moving from a place that you know to a place that you didn’t know as well, there’s courage all along the way. So how do you define that? How do you define courage? What would you say KG’s definition of courage is?

KG: To it’s confidence in God. Confidence in God. Because that was my drive. No. That was my drive. If I didn’t have a relationship with God, I’d be living a different life. All the decisions I’ve made would be to please the standards of the world, the norms, the cultural norms. So because I knew what God has set out and what He demands and what He wants. So I pursued that. And in pursuit of that, then the decisions were made. And so yeah.

Jeff Johnson: You draw a direct correlation between faith and courage.

KG: Yes. Yeah. So exactly. Walking out God’s mandate for your life. So my confidence is in God because as I mentioned, I knew I was in the will of God. God is directing my path. And of course, you also look at those small victories and you’re like, if God did that for me, I mean, going, getting into seminary for years of seminary, I didn’t have a salary. I got basseries. Sometimes people supported me. That was the one man who was faithful. He gave me 700 trends every month. Basically that’s if I would say I had any fixed amount, that was a fixed amount. And sometimes we got vouchers, you know, to buy food that the grocery and get grocery. But ultimately, I always say to people, I’m going to say, I’m going to say, I’m going to say, I always say to people, if someone told me I had to study four years at seminary and they told me, and this amount for four years for accommodation, this amount for four years for textbooks that are recommended, this amount for groceries and just to live. If they were to give me that amount, I would have been discouraged because I didn’t have the money. But through different ways I worked, I did this, I did that. People came through donors and I’m having an honest degree and now I’m pursuing my masters. And I love theology and as we had this conversation now, I’m writing my book and already I’m thinking of a second topic for my book.

Jeff Johnson: So yeah. Back on this topic of courage, you’ve given us a definition of courage, the week that we had last time. So that was fantastic. My question for you is, who do you have in your life that represents real courage?

KG: Okay.

Jeff Johnson: And it can be a historical figure or it can be somebody that’s in your family or you know, let me, let me, let me, I tend to think because there’s plenty of people but I think you, well, it’s not just one person but if I were to call through like a list, I’m looking at friends, there’s an elder at the church and I have some people that I watch online and I see their boldness as well. Maybe online, I see John Lenex, the mathematician from the UK. And I mean, he’s in the space where God is not wanted but yet so intelligent, so genius but with the way he speaks about God, that courage, you know, HP Charles, sometimes you know, you, you, for lack of a better way, I’ll say you mean your way, but he says it the way it is but not to offend. But to say no, this is the reality. This is, excuse me, the truth. But so I’m just trying to see recently, who has been that influence? And I think a friend of mine is a pastor as well in Jowek, Kyfus. We went to college together, started met in 2015 and we’ve kept a friendship ever since. Although he said, this is what he said to, just the past few days when we were celebrating my birthday, so he gave his speech and when he started, like, but didn’t start out as like close friends and he saw me from afar. We went in the same class for all the subjects and he says, I’m always sharp in how I look and he looked at me like, this was the never-lost in ministry.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, always like sharp, clean. And that’s right.

KG: Yeah, and then he’s like, this guy is going, he’s going, but of course, over time, we had a good bond, chemistry, and we’ve kept the friendship up to this date. And there are things that decisions rather than he has taken in ministry that have really encouraged me because sometimes it’s difficult in hurting a church. Because there’s a pastor, there’s a pastor and there’s been consistent elders or deacons. And while pastors come in and go, there’s some who feel entitled and they don’t want to move from the chair and it’s like we do things this way. But he’s made decisions that have been bold, smart and wise at the same time. And I remember, I mean, one of the conversations we had was around the constitution of the church. And he said this to me, the constitution is good for the church when they have a bad pastor. But when they have a good pastor, it can be a hindrance.

Jeff Johnson: That’s interesting.

KG: Yeah. Because it’s like a good pastor, even though there’s the constitution, but he wants to do well and wants to make sure we grow. And we do what we need to do. So now the constitution might give you two or three steps of how to do that. But he wants to go to the test and be immediately because we need to get the ball rolling. And it’s like for a good pastor, it can be a hindrance. And the constitution has its place. But it says for the church when they have a bad pastor, it’s good.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, it can protect the church.

KG: And so one of the things we keep talking about is how sometimes as the church, the constitution can have authority over the way of God. And that is a problem. And I’m just encouraged in the way he’s taken all decisions. And he takes and draws inspiration from me. But when I look at him, I’m like, you don’t know how much he encouraged me because he’s making decisions. And sometimes you know, you want to make decisions not because you are there tyrant, but because you see, okay, this is not working. Let’s try this. And he has done that. I’m more careful thinker. I think and I think and I think and I think and it’s time to act. I think. And it’s like I over think and I’m like, what if it doesn’t work? What if he gets offended or what if this and that. And he always takes action. And of course with careful thought. And so yeah. So he’s been a real encouragement to me in that sense because the church that he’s leading, excuse me. They were with had a pasta for some time and they wanted a by vocational pasta. And he then took up the call and it started working with the church and it’s growing. It’s growing and he’s here’s a story. So he says to me, this other day I received three emails from church members in quotation marks. So these particular individuals, they they they since he’s been there, they have not come to church.

Jeff Johnson: So basically it’s a silent protest. Yeah, we don’t like you.

KG: Yeah, because actually we are the authority and you are changing things. You’re typical older folks in the church who want things to stay as they are.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: And so he says to me, when I saw the emails, I said, I’m not going to respond to this because they’re not church members. Ever since I’ve been here as a pastor, they’ve never been in the church. I’ve never met them. So I don’t need to respond to that because they are not church members. I was like, yo, that’s a bold move.

KG: They’re not far away, I’m like, but he’s actually like, because they’re not active. And this brings me back to a book where we are recently for Bible study by Tom Rainer, I Am a Church Member. And in the first chapter of that introduction, he speaks about a functional church member. And we see that from the Bible. A church member is someone who’s functional in the body.

Jeff Johnson: I’m looking up. Yes, I Am a Church Member. It’s a great book.

KG: So we are in chapter four now. The first chapter is about functional church member. And then the second part, the second chapter, rather it’s about unity. That as a church member, you are a unifier. You don’t destroy the body of Christ. And then the third chapter is about, I will pray for my—yes, that one, Tom Rainer. Yes, it’s a very good book. Not too exhaustive, but profound. So this is Kyfus now. He says, no, these guys have not been involved. And I like how Tom Rainer puts it. Of course, there’s the local church member and there’s the global church as part of the body of Christ. And I was like, yeah, I like the way you practically take steps to deal with issues. But also it shows that you thought about it. And that’s courage for me as well. Because I mean, three emails from church members already, it’s intimidating. I think one of the things that’s passed is you don’t want to lose anyone. You want to win everyone. And so for me, for him to do that, I’m like, that’s bold. Standing up for what you believe in and looking after your flock.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, real diligence. I get it.

KG: Yes, yeah, that’s fantastic. Wow, so I think fresh of my mind, he comes to mind, you know, I do have people that have poured into my life and have drawn inspiration and courage from their acts. And yeah, I’m, I’m reminded again of Professor Piff when he told a story of a situation that happened and one time he was driving back home. He sees a Jehovah witness. He put up a big board and he said, “Jesus is not God.” And he was just going home. Then he took a turn. Like, well, I would have just minded my own business and say, maybe this guy’s crazy. Right. But he took a turn. And he says, you went to the guy and started having a conversation with him. Because for him, you’re offending my God. You know, and that’s not the truth. That’s like, honestly, I would have been nonchalant about it. Yeah, I would just like mind my own business. And sometimes it’s those small acts, you know, that we do, that can make the difference. Sometimes when you think about it, evangelism is like, today I’m doing evangelism. But for him, it’s part of his lifestyle.

Jeff Johnson: It’s a different day. I’ve got a mentor that tells me that my only responsibility is to the truth, to God’s truth. And that’s right. You can say, well, I’m being, I’m honoring God’s truth by not engaging or being apathetic, but that’s not really true. The truth is, I mean, follow the Holy Spirit. But when the Holy Spirit tells you to turn around and go talk to somebody, you need to do that.

KG: For sure. Yeah. No, I get it.

Jeff Johnson: Okay, KG, we want to come down to the big question now and ask you, when you think about your whole life, and I ask you the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? What comes to mind?

KG: The most. Sure. Yeah, that’s a big question. Hmm. Sure. I think, you know, when you ask the most, in my mind comes a big shove, like, you know, dangerous and the jungle.

Jeff Johnson: Right. Yeah. But I’ve had people answer that question and say, you know, it was staying home with my kids. As a mother coming out of, you know, the executive world and I needed to stay home with my kids, to homeschool them because God told me that was the right thing to do. I’ve had other people tell me, you know, Navy SEALs tell me that the most courageous thing they ever did was accept Christ in their life. Not sure. Yes. Go one on one with somebody with a, you know, machine gun or anything like that, but it was a little bit. A little silly bit. Yeah. So when you think about that question, what’s the thing that the Lord brings to mind for you?

KG: Thank you for mentioning that. That really helped me a lot because it brought me to a point where I think this is the most. And this one is more personal. So I’m getting personal with you now and opening up another world of my life. So I think it’s marrying my wife and when I met her, my daughter, our daughter. She’s my stepdaughter. So my wife already had Rato and Rato was three. And I remember when we met and started being friends before we got married and she asked, “Would you marry a woman who has a child out of wedlock?” And I said, “Yeah, sure.” I mean, I’m not just marrying someone because I have a perfect picture of who they are. I want to marry someone I can relate with. And whatever comes with that, we work it out together. But I think I was not concerned or anxious, even though I’d never been a biological father.

But when I look back now in terms of how things turned out—because Rato’s biological father is in the picture. And that can be a struggle. And as we speak right now, I mean, in good contact with the biological father. In fact this morning, he asked if Rato is already at school. And I said, “Yeah, I’ve already dropped her, but I’ll just call you when she’s out so that he can speak to her.” And it didn’t start off like that. You know, male ego. The first time we had a one-on-one encounter, it was ugly and I said some things. He said some things. But it was over a phone call. I mean, and Rato was still four. And I remember my wife was at the salon to do her hair. And now she had to meet with Rato’s dad, Success. So that Success could take Rato and they drive for the weekend.

Jeff Johnson: Success, yeah. That’s his father’s name I mean.

KG: And so now my wife is at this appointment. So it means I have to now go and meet with Rato’s dad. And it was the first time now we’re going to sit after that ordeal. And we said, “Hey, how’s it?” “I’m good, I’m good,” we sit. And I make donuts about this—playing there. When she comes, she takes her father’s hat and puts it on my head.

Jeff Johnson: So his hat and put it on your head.

KG: On my head. Okay. So already you can tell, okay, yeah, this child, yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, she doesn’t care what’s happening between the two of you. She’s just happy.

KG: Yeah. And we’ve squashed the squabble. And from there, there was respect, clear communication. And up to this point. We still communicate. If sometimes he needs a favor, like, please meet me halfway. Because now he lives in Pretoria. We were in Limpopo. So if he wants to spend time with Rato, please let’s meet halfway. And we, you give me Rato and then we always do that. Sometimes “can you please fetch her by this place? I’m not around. Maybe her aunt or Granny.” And we’ve actually even created a bond. But we don’t always talk about it. I can call her grandmother from her biological father’s side. And we can talk and she’s also a Christian. And so she even calls me pastor.

And now Rato always—and depends on who she’s talking to—but from that age, she’s always said, “I have two dads.” And she’s never been confused about it. We never thought that we never said—I’ve never said when we’re with people—”I’m the dad.” She says, “I have two dads.” And I think I just, you know, also seen God’s grace in my daughter’s life. Because she’s always seen me as a dad. She’s always seen a dad. Biological dad as a dad. And so she’s not confused about it. She’s not feeling separated or pulled. And she doesn’t feel like she has to impress this one and impress me. Or she’s just being a girl and a daughter to her dad, which we, with whoever she’s with. And she’s so comfortable to even speak about some of the frustrations she has about her biological dad.

And then I’ve made it my number one priority to make sure that Rato has a relationship with this biological dad because he’s staying with me for a while. So I’m the influence in our life. And of course, she will always see me as the superhero like the dad. Because I’m with her. I’ve been through ups and downs with her. She had a bully at school. I stood up for her. She mentioned it as well. She gave her speech. And she said, “I still remember when you stood up for me when I had a bully at school.” And those things are precious. And so her biological dad doesn’t have that privilege. Because he’s not always with her. He’s not around us much. And so I think that has been the most courageous thing because sometimes there’s ego. And because me and my wife, we still hoping and praying for more babies. But we don’t have our own baby, but we have Rato. And for me, I think my wife is sometimes more anxious—like “I would like to have more kids.” On my side, I’m like, well, Rato is here. And if more kids come, they’ll look. And blesses us. I’m okay. But if it’s not happening, I’m living my life with what I have. And I’m appreciative of what I have. Yeah, I think maybe sometimes it’s because… because I’m a thinker. I just accept things quickly. I think, okay, this, I cannot do anything about it except I don’t get too emotional. I don’t let it get to me.

And so, yeah, I think that has been the most courageous thing—to be a step-dad. And never feel like I’m a step-dad. But just get into that role and it became seamless. I’m Rato’s dad. In fact, the bond we have someone who doesn’t know would just think. In fact, many people have been saying, “She looks more like you than her mom.” God, how do you do this? I don’t know.

Jeff Johnson: I think, KG, that’s a wonderful answer to that question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? I mean, given all of your background and everything that you’ve been through, coming to faith and the way that you were raised and starting a new church and all that sort of thing, I think that is so sweet that you look back on that meeting of Rato’s biological father as the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. And I should be sure about this because I don’t talk outside of my area of expertise. I’ve read a lot of books about the trouble that can come from broken homes. When kids come out of divorce, there’s a difficult situation there. And also children that are raised without a father. And here, your beautiful act of courage being able to meet him and become friends with him. In fact, you put in place not only you as a father for Rato, but affirming her biological dad as a father as well. So she’s got the best of both. And she doesn’t have that tension of being from—I mean, it’s a derogatory term. I don’t mean it to be, but that “broken home.” You know that kind of that difficulty. And that all came from your courage. So that’s fantastic. My hat’s off to you.

KG: Thank you.

Jeff Johnson: That’s wonderful. Now, you’ve already talked about what happened after you did that and the closeness that you have with this man now, and the way that you guys can parent Rato, you know, in harmony like that. What other encouragements or courageous endeavors have come from that act of courage? You know, because I believe that once you take a step of courage, it just lifts you up and helps you for the next one. Have you had—do you feel like you’ve had other things happen since then? Because of what you’ve done?

KG: Yeah. I think just looking at my daughter, she has helped me to have insight into what it looks like to be a father and reflect on God as a father. And that has been a real blessing because I see sometimes how I’m gracious to her, sometimes I’m miserable, sometimes I’m angry, but I’m not angry because of an Achilles heel, but I’m like, “How do you do this?” But you come down, all those dynamics and I think, “Oh, sometimes this is what I do to my Heavenly Father.” And you appreciate God’s grace even more. And you appreciate His discipline when He speaks about discipline. And He does—He disciplines because He loves you. And I see all those as I am a father to my daughter.

And I think also, I’ve never really struggled with pride, but whatever percentage of it that was there, it’s out of the window because I think the pressure is this as well. And I don’t know with any other cultural groups, but where we grew up and with black people, children are like a heritage and inheritance as well. Whereby, you have to leave a print. And that print is through your children. We know that you did—Paravaju did it as we see your kids. Excuse me. And besides Rato, I don’t have any of my biological kids. And that pressure of maybe there’s something wrong with you guys. Or maybe it’s me. Because now we’ve been married now for eight years, going into nine years now. And so, and that—”when are you having?” If Rato has not been in the picture, the question that would have been, “When are you having kids?”

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Where are the kids?

KG: And I’ve had those questions, you know. “Where are the kids?” And that pressure—but I’ve never felt the weight of it. And like I said, I’m a thinker. Sometimes I just observe people and I’m like, that is their expectation. But that’s not mine. I need to be responsible for what I have in my life. And not that I’m avoiding the realities of those questions. But I… yeah. And I think coming, going back a bit to my teenage hood, growing up with my mom. And at some point she was entrenched. And I knew, I couldn’t ask my mom for maybe money for a snack. Because she can’t afford it. So I’ve never pressured her. So always, “Sarah, let me go wash a car. Let me go do something like to get some money and I’ll buy for myself.” So instead of sulking, I always try to find a way to do it better. And to not cause—I could throw tantrums at my mom and say, “Yeah, but other kids are getting this, the kids, there’s a sneaker that’s trending. Others are wearing it at school.” And I think that’s the one there, as well. But I’ve always—how can I make it better? So I think that grew with me in a way that, of course, there are things that get to me where sometimes I’m anxious and bring it to the Lord. But this particular one of children—or maybe I tell myself that maybe I’ve been really sat down and really thought about it. But for the fact that Rato is there and filled that void.

Jeff Johnson: Personal. Right. Yeah, cause, yeah. You’re complete with her.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: That’s a beautiful. Yeah. That’s a beautiful way to put it. Yes. KG, you are a new friend and I’m so grateful to God that he put us together just a little trip. It’s just been fantastic. And I’m grateful that you came and sat down with me a couple of times now to talk about this topic of courage. And I’m looking forward to many more. So KG, man of great courage. And certainly a man of God. Thank you so much for sharing with us.

KG: Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it. And I mean, like I said, with the pressure of, you know, from families like “we want kids,” my dad wants more grandkids. And maybe as we are wrapping it up, even my sister who comes after me. She had a first child. She just had a newborn. And it’s like now she has more numbers with me. The race is on. So of course, I see those and I think and I’m like, I wonder what they are thinking.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: But then the truth is I know, and even the Bible says, if you worry, it can’t even add a day to your life. Can’t. So yeah, why beat yourself up about it? And me and my wife, of course, for now we, I think this you can pray with us about it. And we, well, we, we, we are a pastoral family, we missionaries. So, you know, sometimes finances can be a lack on some areas. So we’ve been, my wife has been suggesting maybe we could see a guy. We get to check this and that. We’ve also considered like it would be nice maybe to do an in vitro or something like that. But of course, when you look at the finances like… and I think as a man, I’m trying as a husband. I try to do what we have and not try to stretch ourselves so much that we have financial burdens. And for my wife, I’ve seen like, it gets to her. Whereas me, it’s more of, okay, I’ve only thought about it logically but not emotionally. And of course, I accommodate her and we always talk and maybe we should check this. We should check that and see. In fact, I think I always say to people, I’m great answering questions when I speak because I remember.

So we’ve had a miscarriage, me and my wife, 2022. Well, there were signs, you’re like, “Your periods have income, okay?” That’s sign number one, okay? “We should get checked” and it’s like, okay, but let’s wait. And I can remember, she gave me these news after the day, after all the rest of the night when I did a special surprise for her birthday. She gave me in 2022. And she said, “No, I took a pregnancy test and this is the results.” And she said, “Okay, that’s another sign, okay?” Yeah, and of course, that joy—and I think she was seven weeks. Yeah, I think seven weeks or five weeks and then we had a miscarriage and that really took a toll on us, especially my wife. And like I said, and I don’t know, maybe sometimes I’ve growing up, I’ve learned to lock out things that I know won’t help me to progress. To a point where I can’t get emotional about this. And I do get emotional. There are things that get to me and allow them. I’m one of those who say, “Men cry.”

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, I’m a little miss.

KG: Yeah, men cry too. So yeah, but I think, like I said, most of the things I think about them logically, and I try to make sense and I say, okay, this is not helping. So I don’t—I’ll go through the process, but at some point in life is to go. We have to raise up, you know, we have to do something. And even when we’re carrying the pain, but carry the pain while don’t get stuck in the pain.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, don’t sit, don’t make, don’t allow it to make a home in your heart, you know.

KG: We’ve had that miscarriage ever since, you know, if not then. When she mentions, “I feel like this, I feel like that” you’re like, oh, maybe this or that. But yeah, so we desire to have more kids. But I think sometimes there is that pressure on me, especially from family and in the black culture. And for sure, in any other family, kids are blessing. And it’s like, “Okay, oh.” And here’s the thing. Because I didn’t finish my obligation with the traditional way of doing marriage. Apparently, the notion is maybe the ancestors are angry.

Jeff Johnson: Yes, because you didn’t finish this.

KG: There was no blood sacrifice. So that—this is the one prayer that I’ve said together. And I said, “God, if you’re gonna give us kids, please give us kids before we even finish.” Because I committed to that. Just finishing the lobola.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

KG: And I said, I will finish my part because I committed to that. I said, “Yes, no, it’s fine. This amount is fine.” But the other rituals, you know, yeah. If they want to do that, they can do them. But I’m not gonna speak to dead people with respect. I’m not gonna kneel. I’m not gonna spill blood. And I don’t believe in—so apparently when those process are that you are bringing both families together. That’s how basically it works. You are bringing both their living family and ancestral families together. They need to agree. So there is a whole world down there. That’s how they view it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Basically, I think about it.

KG: And I always say to people, how can someone who’s dead tell you who is living, how to live? I mean, even when they died, they couldn’t put themselves in a casket. They needed you to put them in a casket.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

KG: And then now, all of a sudden, they have the power to influence you.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So yeah, but that’s a lot of the service. And you’re serving, that’s very interesting. And you’re serving an audience of one. And so you know as a Christian, that we’re not supposed to pray to the dead or do any of that kind of stuff. But we pray to Jesus. And I’m glad that you’re mentioning—I’m glad that you’re mentioning the longing on your heart with you and your wife. What’s your wife’s name?

KG: Laurentia.

Jeff Johnson: Laurentia. Yeah. That’s a beautiful name. So you’ve already been given a Rato.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: But you and your wife, Laurentia, are longing for more children.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: And you’ve gone through a miscarriage already. And there’s a lot of good, strong Christian people that are listening to this podcast. So everybody out there listening to me, we’re going to join in prayer with KG and his wife for more children. We’ll just trust God’s will. As the Bible says, with prayer and petition, we offer a request to God. Yeah. So we’re going to do that. And we’ll leave it in the Lord’s very capable hands. And you’ve already got a daughter.

KG: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: So if he wants you to have more, you’ll have more.

KG: Sure. Yeah. I agree. I agree. I’m the person.

Jeff Johnson: Can I ask you a favor, KG?

KG: Sure.

Jeff Johnson: Because I want to take advantage of having a pastor here on the podcast. We’re closed now with the podcast. Would you wrap us up with a prayer for people that are listening to this podcast that they’d have a heart of courage? This is your job done. Yeah. For whatever endeavor they’re going through in life. Can you do that for us?

KG: Sure. 100%. Thank you. Yeah. Let’s pray together. Lord, we really just thank you so much for what you did for us on the cross. And because of that, we draw strength and we draw courage from you because you demonstrated your love for us to the point of death and death on the cross. And so we thank you so much for your initiation of our love to us and the steps you took and the sacrifice that came with it.

And right now, I’m just grateful for Jeff. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for bringing us together. I’m thankful for his wife Danielle, such a lovely family. And just pray Lord that this platform would continue to encourage many who maybe discouraged. I mean, just like me, someone didn’t know what I went through. But today they get to hear how I went through and how I came out of one of those situations. And they might take courage and be inspired and draw strength from this podcast. And we’re really grateful for such platforms, Lord, where we can reach many without even being physical with them. In fact, we are reminded of your words in John when you say, it is to our advantage that you leave so that the Holy Spirit may come. And we see how sometimes we don’t have to be in the same place with people for you to work. But you are able to reach them in their different places, different circumstances, far and close Lord.

And we entrust everyone who’s listening to this podcast to you and we pray that you uplift them and that they would have confidence in you. Because when we have confidence in you, we are driven with purpose, we are driven with courage knowing that you are the one who upholds us in our hands. And who can do anything to us when we are in the hands of a mighty God. And so we thank you so much, Lord. And I pray that you continue to fill our cup, strengthen us, encourage us, and that we would be bold in the midst of chaos, in the midst of corruption, in the midst of a decaying world. And we pray that we would be bold and stand for the name, that is a Bible name, the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for giving us life, thank you for the transformative work that you have done in our hearts. And we pray that you do so to others Lord that they may encounter and experience your love and your grace and your mercy.

And most of all, if there’s anything that we need courage from, it’s this fact that you are coming back for us. And so we are not lost, we are not in limbo. And so we can draw strength from the fact that you are coming back and when you come back, you are coming for your own. And so we love you and we thank you Lord Jesus. Amen.

Jeff Johnson: Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you, sir.

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