Chris Barr on Courage: Why the Most Powerful Acts Are the Ones No One Sees

In this episode, Jeff sits down with Chris Barr, a Des Moines-based technology professional an long-time mentor, FCA chaplain/character coach, and devoted husband, dad of four sons, and Pops” to two granddaughters, for a grounded, faith-forward conversation about what courage really looks like. Chris shares stories from the front lines of ministry and coaching, including a powerful night when he brought rival high school teams together, not just for a movie, but for fellowship, encouragement, and a clear message about who the true King is, and he reframes courage as something far more practical than a big heroic moment: a steady, daily obedience to God in the small choices, especially when pride, anger, fear, or impatience want to take the wheel. He talks about courage as a response to adversity, the importance of asking “What does God say about it?” and “Is this for Him or for me?”, and why the most meaningful growth often happens in hard places like grief, conflict, and the ordinary pressures of marriage and leadership.
Chris Barr is a technology communication innovator with more than two decades of experience, a man on mission who has spent over a decade investing in athletes and men through FCA, university chaplaincy, and local discipleship communities, known for his bold encouragement, his call to “go” with purpose, and his steady commitment to live in a way that honors Christ, strengthens families, and helps others see themselves the way God sees them.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Building off of a series of fantastic interviews, here’s yet another wonderful deep dive into the topic of courage. And somebody answering the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? My next guest is a dear, dear friend of mine, Chris Barr, a guy that I admire and maybe I should apologize—maybe I shouldn’t apologize, but I’m going to anyway. You’re going to hear a lot of complimentary language going back and forth in this next interview, because I hold this next man in such high regard. He is just a hero to me and a wonderful mighty man of God.

Chris Barr answers that question, what’s the most courageous thing he’s ever done? And gives us a glimpse into who he is and what makes him tick. And I’d especially encourage you to hang on to the very end of this episode where I ask him about courage and marriage. He gives some coaching tips throughout this interview. He gives us real insight into him as a father and a grandfather. And like I said at the end, he talks about courage and marriage along with a whole bunch of other things. You’re going to enjoy this interview. So without further ado, here is Chris Barr. Chris Barr, I’m just disappointed I’m so far from you.

Chris Barr: I feel the same way. I’m going to schedule this. I was like, “So where do you need me to drive to?” Because there isn’t anywhere on the planet I wouldn’t drive to to be with you.

Jeff Johnson: This, see, this is for the listeners, Chris, we’re going already. I’m telling him this is why I love Chris Barr. He’s so fantastic. How are you doing, my friend?

Chris Barr: I like you. Oh, I’m telling you what? I am one that God has built to leap from my bed to charge into a day, to drop to my knees beside the bed. But that’s just to make sure my tank’s full to go.

But I just want to tell you this, this year has been hard. I don’t normally come into a new year but in full transparency with—and I love you, and I trust you—and I always just tell you that, yeah, this year has been a hard one to enter into. And what a beautiful gift it is. Because in the weight of it, it really focuses your attention. It focuses: am I properly aligned? You know, I don’t slow down often, but when things don’t feel right and the dashboard of life is starting to flash warning signals, what a beautiful place to be because it’s a checkpoint. So this has been more of a, hey, you know what, rather than momentum from the previous year into the new year, I’m actually taking a little bit of a hesitant pause for just a moment to make sure that everything’s properly aligned. So yeah, it’s a different feeling, but man, am I thankful.

Jeff Johnson: Well, thank you. You are, and I love you so much, Chris. What a man of God you are. And I so appreciate you joining us today on this podcast. I want to talk to you about courage today. Is that okay?

Chris Barr: It is.

Jeff Johnson: I’m going to talk to you about what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. And I put a seat belt on my chair here so I can strap in so I can ask you that question. But I’m not going to ask you that yet. Can I have you fill in for our listeners at home a little bit about the person that I’m talking to right now—who you are, where you’re from, what you do? Family, whatever you want to share.

Chris Barr: You know, it’s amazing when someone comes up to you and asks you, “Who are you?” or “Tell me about yourself” or “What do you do?” You know, the first thing that I go to is acknowledging who I belong to. So I think for the first thing when someone wants to know, I am absolutely a follower of Jesus Christ. And I love him so much. And so that’s first and foremost. And only in my success and my obedience and my walk in alignment with him, then can I be entrusted to love, honor and cherish my wife who we’ve been married now for 28 years, heading into our 29th year.

And then from there, then I tell them I have been promoted four times with four sons that I didn’t realize how much God was going to grow me and lead me in ways I never imagined with that promotion of four sons. And then now it’s as you are also enjoying and I just am so excited about: I am “Pops.” I mean, look out. I am an intentional Christian grandfather who aims to be Hall of Fame, the greatest that’s ever walked the planet.

Jeff Johnson: I love it. Are you Pops? Is that your grandpa name?

Chris Barr: I’m Pops.

Jeff Johnson: That’s me too. I’m Pops too. It’s elite. That’s totally elite. And how many grandbabies?

Chris Barr: Two beautiful girls, which I didn’t know—I thought they told me I wasn’t good enough to produce anything as great as a girl. And so you got to have four sons and I have few brothers and you know the Barrs, I didn’t even know we were capable of doing it. And so my son Noah and his beautiful bride Claudia, they have produced these beautiful girls, Annie and Lila. And really a really fun note for you, Jeff… yeah, all of them, their middle name is Rose. So it’s his bouquet of roses. So Claudia Rose and Lila Rose.

Jeff Johnson: How wonderful is that? I can hardly say it without choking up.

Chris Barr: No, I can hardly hear it without choking up. That’s a bouquet of roses.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, I think that’s just great Chris. Wow. Okay, what do you tell people what you do?

Chris Barr: So what’s incredible is I’ve been in technology from a workspace standpoint. I’ve been a technology communication innovator over 21 years. And so I’ve been a long-time committed member of that team out of Pleasant Hill and we travel all around the globe and we work on the stuff that frustrates people and creates frustration. And so it’s a wonderful, wonderful team that I’m honored to be a part of.

And then as far as my personal walk, you know, at home, I have been blessed to be an FCA chaplain and character coach now for almost—I mean, I’m north of 10 years—I’m saying almost 12 years that I’ve been involved with FCA. I’m going into my ninth year at Grandview University as the football chaplain here in Des Moines. And it’s been an amazing walk. CrossTrainers, which you and I… and wow, talk about a great route into some great dirt. But being a CrossTrainer brother now, as part of a ministry that’s over 37 years—is that amazing? Over 37 years of meeting every Wednesday morning and now getting to have some leadership and involvement in that.

In Kingdom Builders, we do Fathers and Sons every Sunday morning with a great ministering outreach of connecting fathers to sons and sons to fathers. There’s just a lot of ministry blessings, you know, All Pro Dad kind of kicked it off with Tony Dungy a number of years back in the elementary school, but I have been called into working with men in every space of my life. And I will just say that one thing I tell my family and I tell every one of my athletes and I tell every one of my friends: don’t go anywhere if you’re not on mission. So for me, when you ask me, “What do you do?” I’m a man on mission. There is intentionality. I’m going for purposeful bettering of others. And I really want to close the gap between every heart and the one that made their heart. Don’t start the journey unless you’re aiming at something.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, you’re not wandering. You’re directed towards them. Not necessarily because they love you, but because He loves you that much.

Chris Barr: Yeah, yeah, amen to that.

Jeff Johnson: Before I talked to you about… well, I don’t want this to be a slobber-fest, Chris. I could slobber on you all over the place because you’re a man of God and you encourage me greatly. Like one of these guys, you wake up in the morning and there’s a voicemail message on your phone. You’re like, “Who does this come from?” and it’s Chris Barr saying, “I just want to tell you what a mighty man of God you are and blah, blah, blah.” And all of a sudden I got air in my lungs and it’s fanned and I feel like I can take on the day. So you’re amazing like that.

And there’s a lot of people that I know, good strong Christian men and women that are outpouring and they’re overflowing all the time. You’re the guy that radiates. You’re like radiating all the time the goodness of God. And it’s a blessing. One of the first things that I remember about you when you and I started to get to know each other, you were doing work with the high school in West Des Moines, I believe it was. And you had a movie night or something and didn’t you charter a bus to get one of the other—I’m not going to say impoverished—but it wasn’t a West Des Moines school. And you got them to come to the movie too. And you put two different schools, rival schools together in brotherhood. Could you talk about that story?

Chris Barr: Yeah. And you know what? First I want to encourage everyone that hears this. Do not underestimate how big God is and how much he wants to use you. I will just tell you that if you ask big asks, he’ll give you big opportunities. If you won’t say no and you say “go,” look out because you better grab a surfboard for that tsunami to ride.

So how that happened was, you know, in one of my normal days of saying, “Hey God, you don’t need me. Hey, your work is great. But will you let me get involved in it? Hey, can I be a part of it? Hey, can I just be there to witness and celebrate and just celebrate in your glory? Let’s go.” And he said, “Hey, take your team to the movies.” And I was like… and at that time I was with the Valley Tigers. I’m working with them as their character coach with FCA and love my players. And so it’s like, okay, we’re going to go to the movies and he said, “Oh, nope, that’s not it. You’re going to take more to the movies than just the Tigers. You’re going to take the Bears.”

And Sean Quinlan, my good friend, had just started down there working with North High. And so we had one of the winningest programs and one of the losingest programs. And here’s how I put it: God put on my heart, “They both have mountain ranges in their lives. The mountains look different. Relationship melts away all indifference.” Yeah, let’s go lock arms. Let’s go peel off the armor and the logos and the numbers and realize that inside we bleed red. And there are men that can serve and love one another if they get to know one another.

And so we’re going to take the Bears and the Tigers and we’re taking them to the movies. And we did. We got buses and called up Sean. We were rocking and rolling. And so we had them show up and we had bought out a whole movie theater. And by the way, you know, talking about funds at that time and telling the mama we were going to buy out a movie theater—it’s like, “What?”

Jeff Johnson: You did it? You did it personally?

Chris Barr: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then I got a greater story for that too. So I committed to it.

Jeff Johnson: I love it.

Chris Barr: Not knowing I could do it. So I said, “Okay, I’m signing up for it. We’re doing it. Yeah.” All right, great. I’m talking to Sony and these people, I’m like, “Yeah, we’re…” anyway. So we get there to the movie theater. And why don’t I back up real quick? I got to tell you that part.

Jeff Johnson: Sure.

Chris Barr: God always resources everything if it’s of Him, for Him, with Him, and He trusts you that it’ll be for His glory and for His finished work at the cross because you’re going to tell them all about Jesus.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Barr: Here’s what happens. I had a friend and it was at CrossTrainers. And he said, “Hey Chris, come over here.” And he goes, “Hey, I have this feeling. Do you need some money?” And I’m like, out of the blue, I looked at him like, “What? Why are you asking me this?” And lo and behold, the amount in which my friend funded took care of the actual movie. I made the initial commitment. I was willing to do it whatever it took, but God showed me how much He loves me in the details. And He actually wrote the check in a whole different way than I anticipated.

And so we get there to the movie theater, we got them all packed in there, and I said, “Sean, hold on to yourself because guess what we’re doing. We’re going to chapel, baby!” We were not missing this moment to encourage these men. And I’m going to tell you what, we had all of them standing. And when I’m sure—I don’t even know because it was kind of dark through there—but if they were like me, there was enough leaking going on that eyes weren’t dry because of some of the things we acknowledged that night. I’ve never been to a football movie like that before. When the Game Stands Tall was the name of the movie.

I might say what the hearts of these young men in Des Moines from the burbs to the inner city, we stood tall that night as we reflected just, you know what, iron sharpens iron with fellowship, camaraderie, brotherhood. And I’ve never—I’m going to tell you what, I should write apology letters to anyone that was at the movies that night because everybody was disturbed because of the noise that we made through that movie with all those men. And that’s what, on that, I’ll never forget it. And I was like, “I hope, voraciously, Lord, that I cheer for you the way that we cheered at this movie this night with that many men packed into that theater.”

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Was there a follow-up after that or did you just have that event and let it be?

Chris Barr: For that group of those men together, they’ll never forget it. We didn’t gather the two teams directly together, though they did meet one time on the field. And I know that they competed in a way that they would have never competed otherwise. But I will say this: it opened the door to Sean and me to enter into each other’s spaces and service to serve the men’s hearts. So I got to go and be part of North many times with Sean in a way that, you know what, you have to choose to listen. You have to choose when the door knocks to open. You have to choose to let somebody go below the waterline if you’re going to meet them there. And so I’m just going to tell you, yeah, that night did not end at that night and everyone that left there, they left with devotionals and we left them with materials. And so they left out of there knowing who’s the King. Knowing that they had a Savior and He came for them. Men meet together in powerful ways and we’re meant to be mountain movers.

Jeff Johnson: I think that’s just amazing, Chris. I was right, I remember hearing that story and it just gave me chills because that’s the gospel. That’s exactly what we’re supposed to do. Be building up and bringing together instead of all of this divisiveness and stuff like that, which is what the devil is just all about doing all the time.

Can you tell me… I want to wade into this topic of courage here and the way I want to do it—you’re giving us an introduction into who is Chris Barr and we already know a little bit about your courageous bonafides with that short little story you told us—but I’m curious, how do you know, how do you define courage? What’s the Chris Barr definition of courage?

Chris Barr: Wow, you know what? I thought into this topic, prayed into this topic. So anytime I have a word, can I give you my two-step process to adversity and challenge and hope?

Jeff Johnson: Please, please.

Chris Barr: So here… so all of my football men, my Vikings right now that I spend a lot of time with, they know that anytime they address anything, there’s a two-step process. One is: what does God say about it? So you got to go to that weapon of mass construction, you got to get Him into His word and wow, we dig in. What does He say about it? So that’s the first thing they do. What does God say about courage? And then the next thing is, before you move, before you speak, before you do anything: is it for Him or is it for you?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Barr: Courage… and I started, you know, when I heard you talk to different people and I talk to people and like, I actually have used your question in many of my interactions because I love the question. And it really takes somebody to a moment to celebrate some type of victory in their life.

Courage is usually, obviously, the facing of fear. It’s like the opposite of it, but I actually don’t look at courage as this word like this ferocious roar and this incredible outlet of energy. I think it comes to my word for this year, which was “steadfast.” Courage is something almost to what I view as spiritual maturity—it’s a transformation of “I don’t face fear with courage.” It’s basically doing God’s expectation in me. It’s blocking and tackling, it’s the fundamentals.

God talks about it, you know, we always talk about the hundreds of times throughout the Bible where He says, you know, “fear not.” He expects you to be strong and courageous. And I really believe it’s the response. So when somebody says, “Give me courage, what’s courage?” It’s your response to the adversities of life. For me, it is: what is my response? Courageous is doing what God made me to do, called me to do, and commanded me to do. So really courage is obedience—doing right in the face of anything, and it doesn’t have to be just wrong. But in the face of any moment, courage is doing the right thing according to God.

Jeff Johnson: Doing, following God’s will, aligning your will with His, just stepping out because He placed us all in different circumstances and different scenarios and different families and different, you know, people groups and that sort of thing. So it’s what… it’s God’s will in the moment that you’re in right now. I love that definition, Chris.

Chris Barr: You know, one of the things that I want you to… because I view you and hold you in such high esteem of wisdom and God tells us to pursue it and you consistently and fervently pursue wisdom. And so when I tell the men, I say, “You know, wisdom is the knowledge of God’s truth in action.” So wisdom is an action word. And so I think, you know, when I think about that response, courage for me, it is doing the right thing according to what God tells us is the right thing in every moment.

Jeff Johnson: I love that. Who do you have around you that represents courage to you?

Chris Barr: Wow. Yeah, I mean, you’re one of my heroes, Jeff. I mean, I just… I watch your victory. You could have been knocked down and quit, but you stood. You got back up and moved forward. Here’s the one of the things that you’re most courageous in: it’s the transparency, the vulnerability, but not just being transparent and vulnerable—you invite others into that space. Both emotionally in your soul and your spirit, you invite them into your heart, but you invite them into physical spaces to experience things.

I have the owner of our company, Josh, and I told him, I said, “You better open up a Tuesday night because I’m going to ask for an invitation for you and I to go join you down at Johnson Machine Works.” I’m going to tell you what, we’re going to go down there. I’m on. We’re going to get it on. So I think you… you are one of my heroes in courage because you have something that, you know what, where others would fear to be vulnerable, you know that’s your strength because that’s where God shows up. At the end of your strength is where God takes over and you’re in love with how awesome God is. So you’re one of my heroes.

Jeff Johnson: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I could say the same thing right back to you. Did you grow up with courage?

Chris Barr: I think in my makeup, when someone says “What’s your superpower?”, my superpowers are: one is encouragement, two is boldness. I have always been bold. So when someone says, “Are you courageous?”, I think as… and especially after—and I wanted to say this was courageous because it came out of brokenness—I think the accepting of the finished work of the cross, of inviting Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior, to allowing my life then to be a great follower in order to lead. But taking and channeling that boldness from a young age with spiritual maturity in this walk over the years.

I don’t even see myself needing… I don’t fear a lot. I know when somebody says, “Do you fear?”, I say, “It has kind of melted and diminished,” but it’s changed because here’s my saying, Jeff: every time something comes up against us that the world would say that you should fear, I say, “I can’t wait to see what great you’re going to do with this, God.”

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Chris Barr: You know, that’s the phrase that comes into my head. Because I witnessed it. When you’ve experienced it and you know it and you trust it… so here’s another great saying, and I don’t know exactly where I got the essence of this, and maybe I’ve shaped it a little bit. I tell my guys, I say, “You know what? You’ve got to be ready for your response to adversity because you’re going to get it and you get it all the time.” But God shapes His men by the hammer of adversity and He shapes them by the chisel of discipline.

And so when you have things that are harder, you have things that would create some resistance, hesitation, anxiety or worry or fear, I actually have become… that’s like the next mountain to climb. And the only way we’re going to build heart muscle in the heart gym is “let’s go.”

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, you got to go into the storm. You got to go through the storm.

Chris Barr: And here’s the other thing is as I… the richness of life is on the front lines of other people’s pains. You know, their storms, their hurt.

Jeff Johnson: That’s profound, Chris.

Chris Barr: I spend a lot of time in the hardships of others. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful hard place. But it doesn’t take courage. It just takes obedience. Because God can do what He wants to do if I take Him—we’re vessels of power, He’s in us. So if we park it, or if we go in the pancake or we sit on the bench in life—and God never puts us on the bench—you got to get in the game. If we don’t move, if we don’t respond, if we don’t go, then we have just not been the vessel of the power that He instilled in us to… we weren’t supposed to not go.

You know, and I can’t remember at CrossTrainers one time very early on, I remember one of the wise speakers—and maybe this came from you even at one time—I said, “You know what? There’s certain things for people you show up in life.” You know, it’s one thing to go to a wedding and you go celebrate and there’s great times in life. It’s when it’s easy to love, when it’s easy to do. But when is it hard? It’s doing that which is hard that has the greatest impact to reinforce that if you said the words, the integrity of “I love you” comes through doing the hard with them.

And so I think for me, showing up at the funerals and giving them the promise that this is not an end point with Jesus. This ultimately—ultimately—any funeral can be the greatest celebration we’ve ever celebrated.

Jeff Johnson: Were you raised in a Christian family?

Chris Barr: I did. And I grew up with great grandparents that were pillars of faith. I have a legacy on the German side, of my mom’s side of the family, of multiple preachers actually in the Lutheran church. So I knew of it. I knew… especially, isn’t it great when you go to grandparents’ homes and the one thing you can count on is going to church?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Barr: Beautiful thing. And on Sunday mornings when we went to Plymouth, Nebraska, we had two different parts of the Lutheran church represented on two sides of the town. So we actually went back-to-back services and I kid… I thought that was cruel and unusual. I had to go and grab my Grandma Ella and Grandma Elsie and we had to go to one side of the votes and we went over here with the Gerhardts and we go back-to-back services because we were in different churches.

Jeff Johnson: We had to go to both grandparents?

Chris Barr: Right. And so I grew up going to church. I watched my parents. We moved a lot, like six times when I was growing up. We moved a lot. And every time you’d have to try to reestablish relationships and my dad and mom tried to make a point to consistently get back in a church family. And that was hard sometimes. So we were kind of on-off growing up but always desiring to be on. And then I went to Bumble Luther College in Fremont. That’s where I went to school against my… I didn’t—I don’t know that I really wanted to go—but my mom was a great advocate for going and it all turned out for God’s plan.

Jeff Johnson: You didn’t want to go to school period or you didn’t want to go to that one?

Chris Barr: I didn’t want to leave town. I actually lived in a small town where I had my grandfather’s business, my dad’s business, my uncles were involved. But I wanted to stay right there in relationship with all the men of my family. And they… and Mom goes, “You’re going. You’re going to be the oldest grandson. You’re going to go. You’re going to go graduate from college.” So it was a completion of the first that vision cast of my mom and it really was God’s first launch of me.

You know, sometimes when you go against your will and you don’t know it’s His will, He reveals it later on. “Hey, I needed you to move from there and let’s go because this adventure is going to have little elements along the way that you’re going to gather to build up momentum towards where I got to take you.” And it was ultimately coming to Des Moines and being here in Iowa. And I can’t even begin… we don’t have enough time, do we Jeff, to talk about the stories of being here as Iowa kids? And then what God’s done in the sphere of our influence on all around us and right here from the heart of America in the heart of Iowa. What’s been sent from here is unbelievable. It’s been unbelievable.

Jeff Johnson: And you know, the thing is we’re called to… we’re called to go. I love that last verse, I think it is in John chapter 14 where it’s my daughter Meredith’s favorite verse in the Bible where Jesus says, “Let’s go.” I mean, that’s it. Like to his disciples, “Let’s get up and let’s go.” He was on the move. He was making it happen. He was dispatching the duty of the ministry that God had so lovingly given Him. And He was doing it with excellence. And I just think amazing things happen when you go.

And again, not to slobber on you, Chris, but you are one of the “go-en-est” guys that I know. And it’s to the glory of God and it inspires a lot of people. So to that end, let’s go ahead and jump off the deep end right here. Chris Barr, what is the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

Chris Barr: You know, I wrote, Jeff… I wrote a list of everything. From the time my family was down in New Orleans when we carried a 300-pound cross, illuminated, down the street of Louisiana in their New Orleans, which was a full circle journey with God in the heartbreak of many things within that community, including the hurricane.

And I would say, you know, I looked at that and I looked at moments of, you know, being bullied as a kid and in a moment where you stood tall and then, you know, I just went time and time again. I had all these little moments where I thought: was this the most courageous? Was this the most courageous? Was it the time when the news came out and I was there doing my role as a chaplain for FCA and character coach at Valley? And you know, when the world comes against you and broadcast some labels and says things that they don’t understand and when something’s out of line and it doesn’t seem like it’s justifiable… and I think about all these moments and was it the courageous response to that?

With the moment, you know what I think… I think the most courageous moments are the little moments in every day, Jeff. It’s the moment to… having a young man served in Syria and losing a couple of his men and I actually had a little stand of time where I thought I had received word that I had lost him. And I think about those moments and it’s like… it’s the response. It’s God’s response against the flesh. It’s my will and my anger and my competitiveness, my pride, my ego, and it’s the moment to respond in love.

There’s a phrase I give to my football guys and unfortunately—I mean, one of the things they have been so disciplined and so excellent from the coaches all the way through our Viking family that we’ve won at a very high level and many of the games may be lopsided—but what I tell them: if it was 50 to zero, when you get done with the game, do they want to be on your team? So I keep asking myself… the most courageous thing is for me to respond in a God-honoring way when my flesh doesn’t want to, because I want to make sure that the person that’s in the sphere of witnessing or being influenced by my words or actions want to be on God’s team.

I think my most courageous moments are seeing the lack of gratitude for those that serve and then loving—it’s like not having a hard heart and forgiving unconditionally when you want to do just the opposite against other people. How about having just a struggle in marriage and standing right? You know, fighting to love when you don’t feel either lovable or you don’t feel like loving. I think the greatest courageous moments are the little moments where God will show up the biggest, which oftentimes we think they’re little minute things so they’re too little for God. But they’re really exactly all that God wants to be a part of—the little details of every day.

So my most courageous moments is definitely that… I have a trigger button, a short fuse. I’m the one that, you know, when they hit the hammer at the doctor’s office and your knee kicks out and you put a contusion in a shin because you know… I am… that’s the hesitation in my life is almost zero. I’ve always been about action. You know: see, do. Hear, do. So my kids know this phrase in our house: “What you do and what you say defines who you are and reveals who you belong to.” I want to have the integrity of our mission statement at CrossTrainers that we “live well and finish strong.” I want to be that man. So it takes courage to pick up the cross each day. It takes courage to not respond to my emotion but to respond in love. The most courageous thing is the little things.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, steadfast. Now that you say that, and having the benefit of knowing you, gosh, that makes so much sense when I see the character of the man that’s standing before me. This is not going to equate it at all, but you’re making me think… you know that I’m a recovering person, a sober person, and they told us early on in recovery: the difference between a normal person and an alcoholic is a normal person breaks their shoelace, they go get another shoelace. An alcoholic breaks their shoelace, they go get a drink. And it’s meant to punctuate the fact that it’s just a little tiny thing that can throw you off. But isn’t that true? We’ve got days that are full of little tiny things that can throw us off and where you talk about real courage is being able to make the right decision and follow God’s will in those little tiny moments every day. And there’s the value of compound interest right there. I mean, wow.

Chris Barr: Oh, you know, when God says, “Do you love me? Do you love me?”, I think about the way that I live and love. Is it worthy of the price that was paid for it? No, we don’t earn anything, but when you know His love and you’ve experienced miracles in your presence and you’ve had your life transformed and you’ve seen… every good anything that is in my life is of Him and for Him. I just think that I hold that so tenderly. You know, one of the most courageous moments is anytime that you or I go up in front of other people as an ambassador of Christ, because we take hearts that seriously. I don’t want to cause anyone to fade, step back, hesitate, or retreat from running to Pops.

Jeff Johnson: So I just want to be a man who lives in a way consistently that honors my God, it honors my wife, it honors my kids, it builds a legacy of love. I want to be known by my love and my love is fueled by His love.

I think you would say—I think I want to… I’m about to ask you, you know, is courage transferable or teachable, or people trainable in the things of courage? And I think the answer to the question you’re going to give me is, “Yes, absolutely,” because that’s what you do as a coach and a mentor and a pastor and all of the things that you do. But talk about that a little bit, because do people have courage in them that is dormant that just needs to be awakened? Is courage a quality that they gain from watching the activities of others? Is courage just something that comes straight from God like a lightning bolt and one day they’re not courageous and the next day they are? Talk about that.

Chris Barr: If they don’t believe that they are courageous, it’s only because they’ve accepted someone else’s definition of it, and they see the gap between where they view themselves and that perceived place that they’d have to be in order to have it.

So here, I’m going to give you a coaching session. If you were one of my players and you were to say you were suffering with some passivity and—or you were feeling like, “I can’t do something,” or whatever it is, you’re just… you are drowning in anxiety in the moment and worry and you don’t see any way out—I would just say, just like you would take GPS and you would take, you know, Google Earth… have you ever seen it where they zoom out from where you are and you go intergalactically and all of a sudden you see the Earth and it’s like, “Wow!”?

Yes, they can’t see other than through their own wounds, scars, their own pains. We’re our own worst critics. We are the hardest on ourselves. So when they look at the man in the mirror, what they see is they only see that which they feel and what they believe and what they know.

So I think what our job is, what our role is, is to help them see how God sees them. Do you know how God sees you? Do you know how He made you? Do you know about His plan? Do you know about the resources and what He paid in order to give you everything that you need to do everything that you were made to do? Do you know your purpose? Do you know how valuable you are and what you’re worth?

I want you to see you as God sees you through your “Jesus lenses.” And if you put your Jesus lenses on and see you, you’ll understand that the alignment of how you were made, what you were made for, what you’re called to, what your superpower is—it’s a misalignment. Because once you know whose you are and who you are, then you have nothing… you know the end of the story. It removes the fear element.

Now, is how best can—how you respond to things, how you think about things, how you love, how you act—I just want to align you with the activities that bring you closer in relationship to the One who made you and brings glory and honor in all that you do. So it doesn’t matter. Like when we talk about profession, how many people put so much weight on what you do? It’s not about what you do; it’s about who you’re doing it for.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Barr: And is it for Him or is it for you? And I’m going to tell you, you could do anything and have intimacy with your Heavenly Father. You could do anything and have fellowship. Anything you do could be worship. Anything could have passion and you could be so ignited in it and so awesome at it if you perceive why you’re doing it and who you’re doing it for.

And so I think everybody has it embedded in them. It may look different. It may not be as bold as you or I. It may not be what someone else would say, “Well, that’s really courageous, that’s really huge, that’s an Everest.” I’m going to tell you what: to go over a molehill sometimes takes a lot more than a mustard seed.

Jeff Johnson: Right, right, right. It’s absolutely true. And some people will sit in their bed and bemoan their position in life and be what other people would call slovenly and not be able to move because they’re just stuck. Because all they see on social media or on TV or something like that is Bear Grylls climbing Mount Everest, when the thing you have to realize is the courageous step is throwing those sheets back and rolling over and getting up and brushing your teeth and getting going. That’s how Bear Grylls gets on top of the mountain.

Chris Barr: I’ll tell you a quick little story. I was in the kitchen today and my third son Max, who’s finishing up at William Penn… he was a very talented—and still is a very talented—lacrosse player. And he went to college on scholarship to play lacrosse. And in his freshman year, he was playing an All-American upperclassman and he blew out his knee and they tore everything. I mean, it was one of the worst types of injuries you could have. He had many procedures, he had all kinds of donor parts, I mean, to put him back together.

And I was asking him what he was most courageous—what was his most courageous moment? He said it was going back out on the field. See, nobody else knows that. But for him to run out there with a specialty brace, with his legs strapped together… and he had “drop foot,” so he didn’t even have full performance of his foot. And he’s running out there playing in a collegiate game and nobody knows that he can’t control nor feel his foot completely. He did it because he loved his teammates so much, he’d do anything for them. So how courageous is that? Does anybody know what even happened? Many people don’t even know the most courageous moments that people have, because it’s the most simple little things that people take for granted that are really hard for one person but really easy for another.

Jeff Johnson: Thank you so much for sharing that story, Chris. That’s powerful. I usually wrap these up with suggestions or advice to people that are listening and that sort of thing, and that’s all well and good, but I’m going to take advantage of my last question for you being about courage and marriage.

Because you and your dear sweet Mia are a superpower. I can’t ever see you without hearing you say something loving and honoring about your wife and how you feel about her. And everything that I see on social media has either got Mia saying something about how wonderful her husband is or you saying something about how amazing your wife is, and you guys arm-in-arm with these beautiful boys and this growing family around you. There’s something extra special about a man who knows well how to be a good husband, and that takes courage. And I would like you to just end our time here a little bit with a couple of thoughts on courage and marriage.

Chris Barr: Yeah, I want to tell every man that hears this… I will just tell you one thing, that God’s a 180-degree man. And that is that what the world sells you on is typically the opposite of what blesses your marriage.

Passivity is something that I will tell you, for many years, is something that I struggled with because I’m a pleaser, I’m a comforter, I’m a conflict-avoider in man-woman relationships. So what I will encourage you is: the thing that you think would be the most troubling or the most difficult in your marriage is typically where you need to go with your bride. You need to be vulnerable in allowing her, who is built as God’s personal helper to your life, to be able to step in and take the journey through the hard things that you struggle with in life.

Many times men are not good at doing the most strong thing that God would have you do, and that is ask for help. And I would just say that in my marriage, it’s asking her to exercise her God-given superpower of helping. And if I would allow her to help me more, my marriage is stronger.

And so I think right now… we’ve been marriage champions and we go to classes and, you know, we go just like you do—continuing education credits as a professional. I’d ask everyone: how much are you investing in your marriage to be great? And if you’re not spending time, if you’re not investing—no distractions—and really listening well and responding well… I heard someone say, and this is a question: Do you know her dreams and are you helping by making sacrifices for her to chase them? Is she closer to her dreams this year than she was last year because of you, or is she hindered? Are you an obstacle? Are you keeping her from them?

And so it’s a team, team, team, team. And nothing is between us. Everything is a team, shoulder to shoulder, as an adventure going into and through together.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Chris Barr: And the other thing we always said right out of the gate is: there is nothing other than the covenant commitment to forever. So when you have that commitment on mission, then there’s nothing that can stop us. We just need to continue to make sure that we’re aligned and we’re in sync. I love that image of a three-legged race. If you’re not in sync, how does that race look, right?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I love you, Chris. I love you so much and you shared much with us today. And you’re a deep well, there’s a lot more there, so we’re going to circle back and have you on again. But Chris Barr… my—our mutual friend Nate always says about you—sorry, you’re going to get slobbered on now—he said, “That guy is cut out of one solid piece of granite.” And I’m telling you, you absolutely are, and you’re a man of great courage and you blessed me mightily. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Chris Barr: I love you. Thank you.

Announcer: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. Thank you.