Walking Away to Save Your Life: The Courage of Jay Knudson

In this episode of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast, host Jeff Johnson sits down with Jay Knudson, a lifelong Iowan, devoted follower of Christ, and husband of nearly four decades, to talk about what real courage looks like when family, faith, and survival collide. Jay shares how growing up amid chaos, abuse, and serious childhood illness shaped him, and what it cost him to walk away from the landscaping business he built over 27 years with his volatile father, leaving it all behind with no safety net in order to protect his wife and pursue a healthier, God-centered life.

He talks honestly about the long shadow of trauma, his ongoing battle with nightmares, the decision to seek EMDR therapy, and how God met him again and again through prayer, church community, and mentors. Jay also reflects on his later career in insurance, his early retirement to refurbish antique furniture and build custom pieces with his wife, and the joy he finds serving in youth ministry and men’s groups, pouring stability and hope into the next generation. An avid lover of cold weather, hunting, and ice fishing, Jay’s story is less about dramatic moments of heroism and more about steady, sacrificial courage over a lifetime, pointing every hard chapter back to the grace and faithfulness of God.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

• Follow us on Instagram @crossroadsapologetics
• Email us at info@crossroadsapologetics.org
• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out and courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey everybody, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. So grateful that you’re with us again today. Now we have started to curate quite a list of people that have answered that really important question. What’s the most courageous thing I’ve ever done? And maybe it’s your turn. Maybe you need to reach out to us here at Crossroads Apologetics. That’s the mother ship where we host the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. And you can find us at crossroadsapologetics.org. You can communicate with us through that website and let us know that you’re out there and that you’ve got something that you’d like to share on the program. Because we would absolutely love to hear it. But speaking of stories that you need to hear, my next guest, excuse me, Jay Knudson, is a good friend of mine. He’s a gentleman that I’ve gotten to know for several years of a men’s group, Bible study, over in West Des Moines. And Jay is remarkable and he’s got an amazing story to share with you today about real resilience and courage in the face of some real challenges. And you’re going to relate to him and you’re going to understand what courage looks like after you hear Jay’s story. So grateful that he came on the program. So grateful for his transparency. Without further ado, here’s my dear friend Jay. Well, Jay, it’s wonderful to see you. I’m so grateful to have you on the program today on the courageous Crossroads Podcast. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you on this wonderful subject. So how are you today?

Jay Knudson: Hey, I’m great Jeff. I appreciate you having me on and taking the time.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, wonderful. Are you enjoying this cold weather that we got?

Jay Knudson: Actually, I am. I prefer the cold weather over the heat. It makes the coffee taste better.

Jeff Johnson: Coffee in the soup, right?

Jay Knudson: That’s right.

Jeff Johnson: Are you a big soup guy? Are you?

Jay Knudson: I am. Yeah, even in the summer. But I had a landscaping business for 27 plus years worked outside all the time and did not enjoy the heat at all. So I enjoy working outside in the cold. I enjoy hunting and doing stuff in the cold. So yeah.

Jeff Johnson: So my wife and I went to church yesterday drove just maybe a mile and a half, two miles to this county line road. And we saw a whole bunch of cars that were parked out there. And these guys that were running around doing some hunting and stuff. Jay, it’s cold outside.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, we went down to a lake yesterday and we were prepared to break ice to get on the lake and thank goodness. The wind had turned and broke it so we didn’t have to break the ice. But then ice tried to form around our decoys. So we had to walk out and break it away from there. And then we were kind of buried off into the snow. So that’s what I like. That’s exactly what I like when it’s cold, cold, cold like that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Because you don’t do like being cold or I’m sorry, we’re going to be talking about courage here in a minute. But this is fascinating because there is every once in a while I run into somebody who’s really a man. And I like, yeah, no, I like the cold on my face. And you know, if you have warm clothes, obviously, then, then you’re fine. So I just like being out in the elements. I like the challenge of it. And I just enjoy being in nature. There’s something about what God has there for us that we can enjoy. And without world stepping in and stepping all over. And messing it up.

Jeff Johnson: Okay, I like that. Well, I’ve got a, I got a colleague of mine at work that is he’s a fisherman anyway, you know, 365 days a year. But his real thing is ice fishing. And he’s got a little shanty and all that stuff. And he loves, loves, loves that because of the solitude and the peace and the quiet and shutting everything else out.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, ice fishing is my favorite type of fishing.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Oh goodness gracious. Okay. Well, Jay Knudson is who we’re talking to today. Everybody on the courageous crossroads podcast. You’ve already heard a lot about his love for the winter months. Well, he and I both share that. I really enjoy the, you know, it makes the coffee tastes better. And I like, I like kind of waking up when it’s dark outside. And I like it getting dark real soon too. It just makes me feel cozy. So anyway. Jay, we’re going to talk about the one question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And I’m not going to ask you that yet before we do that. Would you mind putting yourself into context for our listeners? Who are you? Where are you from? What are some important things about Jay Knudson that we need to know about before we ask that question?

Jay Knudson: You bet. First and foremost, I’m a believer in Christ. God is my center and my, my Holmest. Been married for 38 years.

Jeff Johnson: Right, huh? 38 or 39? Yeah, I’m wonderful. Congratulations, Jay. That’s a, that’s an accomplishment. That’s fantastic.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. I married up, obviously. So on born and raised here in Iowa, had a landscaping business with my dad for about 27 years. And then I was in the insurance industry for about 22 years. I was retired early so that I could spend work time on a business that my wife and I do. Refirmishing antique furniture and building furniture. And I wanted to be able to spend a lot more time in the world and doing volunteer work. Something that’s a little more near and dear to me and I just felt it was more. More important to spend a more time in the working sector.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Jay and I are friends outside of this podcast. I’ve known Jay for quite a while and I’m lucky enough to get to go speak to a men’s group that meets on Wednesday mornings over in West Des Moines. And I bump into Jay there every single time that I’m there too. And you’re kind enough to come up and shake my hand whether I’ve laid an egg and gave him a bad talk or did a good one. And you always come up and shake my hand afterwards that I got a lot of respect for you. Jay, because you’re faithful about that. And that’s one of the key things about people that. That profess their faith, you know, is that they follow through with that. And you can tell that you’re one of those guys that walks the talk. So I really appreciate our friendship.

Jay Knudson: I appreciate that. And you know, God has been center in my life forever. And as we get to talk and that’ll kind of unfold. But I just I’ve been very, very blessed that God has chosen me to be part of his. Part of his outpouring, I guess I don’t know how to explain it, but I have a lot of words in my head. They just never come out of my mouth.

Jeff Johnson: You and me both. We got a lot of carbon. Okay. So well landscaping and insurance and significant careers in both, which is more fun. You said you didn’t like me too much.

Jay Knudson: Yeah landscaping because I did a lot of the design. We did a lot of hard scapes of patio ripadios retaining walls, drainage work. There’s a lot more, you know, artistry type work into that and figuring things out. One of the things about both that I enjoy so much about is working with people and taking care of problematic issues and making people happy and, you know, the fulfilling part of that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. And okay, so landscaping was first and you said you did that with your dad. Yeah. You guys start that business together.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. So he started it. Well, probably when I was about 11. And when I was 12, I had made a decision to I was living with my mom at the time they were divorced. And I had made a decision to leave the household. And he had recently gotten sober. And so I, I just figured I could, I could probably be safe in life by working my way through it. And through some bad decisions that both parents had made, I just had decided that, you know, I needed to kind of step forward and make those decisions and work ahead. So, but I stepped up and kind of took over the landscaping part of it. And that’s when landscaping was kind of taken on, you know, in the, the moin area, a little different, different view.

Jeff Johnson: So was, were you, sorry, Jay, when you at 12 decided to take off. Were you living with your mom or with your dad?

Jay Knudson: I live in my mom at the time. Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. And that wasn’t working. And you needed to decide, you wanted to decide to do something different.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. So she, you know, my mom and dad, I’ll just kind of go backwards a little bit. My mom and dad were married and divorced to each other twice. Neither time that that work out very well. So, but they fought like cats and dogs and the fights were just horrendous. My dad used to chase us out of the house with a gun. We’d end up at the, you know, local DX or standard station, cold, wet floors, not the, not the warm cozy cases that we have now. But we’d spend nights at grandparents or aunts and uncles, you know, that kind of thing. And then it was just back and forth, back and forth. And my mom had, we ended up living with my mom. And then she was bringing, you know, some bad influences into the house. At one point, I just, I could see the writing on the wall and I contacted, you know, my dad had, you know, was trying to get his act together. And my mom said, well, she couldn’t put by school clothes because he wasn’t paying for child support. And so I called him up and confronted him about it. And he, he met me after school one day and brought the cancel checks and showed me that he had actually been. And so then I eventually just contacted our family lawyer and then talked to my mom and said, I was going to, to leave which the whole family took.

Jeff Johnson: And that when you were 12, right.

Jay Knudson: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: J J. Yeah. This is a tough upbringing.

Jay Knudson: It is. But you know, you do what you got to do with what you have. And I know more people do not that had it a lot worse. And I just was what I had to deal with at the time. And that’s, you know, and again, you know, God was there the whole time. And I have, I probably didn’t realize or understand the personal relationship with God at the time. I, I he was there. He was there guiding me. And then later, when I, I kind of got more of a relationship with God, then I realized what that was all about.

Jeff Johnson: I was going to say, were you faithful when you, but when did you come into your faith?

Jay Knudson: I was 14. Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. And I really truly believe I came into it a lot earlier in that because when they were having their fights and everything, you know, I mean, I was, I always prayed. You know, not certain prayers, not, please help me out, not this or that, but as a relationship with God, just like I do now.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. I have an older sister that’s half sister. She is still alive. She’s had a brain tumor that’s kind of set her back a little bit. I have a younger sister lives not too far from me. And she is, she’s got cerebral palsy, but she is quite functioning and probably works harder than most other people that are 100%.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So yeah. So two other, you got two, two sisters, then they went through the same experience.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. And this, this was ongoing because, you know, as always, you always try to put that person back into your life and, and you know, make things right. And my dad was never very tolerable with either the two. Now my older sister, she would never have anything to do with me. I think she just drew the line early on, but my younger sister never really kind of learned. And she continued to want to have a relationship with him. And he, he was not, he was not good about that. He just, he was mean, mean.

Jeff Johnson: What about the relationship with your mother?

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Good. Very good. It was a little disson, you know, obviously she was not happy with my decision. But we come back together. We’re, we’re fine and spent a lot of time together. Years afterwards. She passed away about four years ago. My dad passed away about six months after her.

Jeff Johnson: Jay, I’ve got so many questions to ask you already about courage. What you’re defining for me is somebody that has tremendous courage already. And I’m so sorry to hear about all of that that you had to go through. I mean, I hear you characterizing other people had it worse. I mean, I get that. But what you’ve had to come through requires a certain amount of courage. Well, Lord, how should I jump into this? Maybe I’ll just ask you the question right off the bat, Jay, and then we’ll see what other questions we get into after that. Let me ask you, let me ask you this before I ask you the big question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? How do you define courage? What does that mean to you?

Jay Knudson: I think it’s, I think it’s doing the hard thing knowing that it’s going to be hard knowing it’s going to be difficult. And I don’t think, you know, I think there’s a lot of people that are that do things that are courageous, right? I’ve done some courageous things, but I think in my perspective, I think God has done those courageous things through me. You know, he’s used me to, I hope, and I believe that he’s using me and used me to help other people. And I think, you know, this is just a small portion of my past and issues. I know, you know, we’re told that, you know, we’re going to have challenges. We’re going to have trials. And I think those trials are blessings. They’re not pleasant. And they’re not what we would choose. And I wouldn’t choose any of it. I went through. But, but it is something for the glory of God. And that’s, that’s the way of you. And I just, I just don’t want to, I can’t entertain negativity with it. It has to be to help others.

Jeff Johnson: So you’re viewing, this is fascinating. You’re viewing being courageous as a essentially a way to worship the Lord, a way to represent the Lord, a way to honor him. You walking through something. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s wonderful. Number 1320, there’s a line in there, be courageous, be courageous. First Kings 2 verse chapter 2 verse 2, be strong and be courageous. John 1633 be courageous. I’ve conquered the world. First Corinthians 1613, be on your guard, stand firm in the faith, be courageous, be strong. So certainly God calls us to be courageous. It’s a quality that he’s, that he’s asking us to step up to and to embrace. And you’ve certainly done that. Okay. I’m, let me just jump in. Jay and ask you, Jay Knudson what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

Jay Knudson: Well, we haven’t quite got there yet, but it was when I left the landscaping business and just completely left it without anything. And to, and just walked away. It had gotten to a point where my dad was just being completely unhinged and creating havoc with for my wife and for myself. I was not, I just could not allow that to, to continue to, to be a force against anybody else. And so I just walked away without anything, I left it all there. And you know, there was some work up to that we, you know, we have people that were going to buy the business and such. And dad made it pretty much impossible and basically just up to the point where I just had to say, hey, I have to make a choice. And in my head, you know, as I prayed about it, it was clear and, and quick that I needed to be unselfish and walk away. And just, you know, I didn’t know what I was going to do after that. I had no idea what I was going to do. Work wise, you know, career wise.

Jeff Johnson: You just couldn’t work with your father anymore because it was becoming too abusive and too abusive to my wife and to, you know, I was, I had learned not in a healthy way, but I had learned to put up with it, control it, and manage, help manage and support him through everything. But he was, he had gone over the bounds and, you know, there was, he had, at one point, he had told my wife that he, she would find me in the back of my garage, killed because he had shot me. He was making those kind of threats.

Jeff Johnson: Well, those kinds of threats, yeah. So, so you mentioned early on that your dad was trying to get sober. He had a problem with alcohol and he was trying to get sober. Was that a, was that an ongoing scenario with him where he was trying to sober up and, and it didn’t take or did he have long stretches of sobriety and things got good?

Jay Knudson: Yeah, you know, I, I was like this. I give him credit when I went to move in with him. He, he was for most party was sober then, but he was like a dry drum, right? It’s easy to, it’s easy to label him as a, you know, me and alcoholic, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. He had some other issues, you know, other than just alcohol, alcohol just really kind of, you know, exploded the whole, the whole thing. To answer your question, yeah, he’d have runs where he was good and then bad and it just got worse and worse and worse. But he had, I mean, he just, he just had some choices that he made that just, he just refused. To make better choices.

Jeff Johnson: And how long were you in the landscaping business with him?

Jay Knudson: 27 years.

Jeff Johnson: That’s a long time, Jay.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, it was and I had built it up and we had a cat we bought a cabin for him up in Minnesota or I’m sorry, Manitoba, you can’t. And so he would go up there and spend a lot of time, which was great. Right. But then when he’d come back, it just got horrible. So, you know, I prayed about it and I’d like said that the answer was pretty clear. It just, you know, I didn’t want to walk away from what I had had built up and I didn’t want to walk away without anything. But, you know, a lot of that really didn’t kind of come into play because I thought it was more important to choose my wife over in our, in our marriage and life over, you know, having anything for me or anything from that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a courage, Jay, that’s sacrificial. I have got so much respect for that. That, that would have been a difficult decision. You said that you had tried to position the business. Obviously, you’re building up something that’s got equity and it’s got a following. If it’s, if you’re going for 27 years, that’s a very, that’s a successful business right there. But you said that your father did things so that you couldn’t, you weren’t able to sell it. Are you able to characterize any of that?

Jay Knudson: Yeah, yeah. So we had a couple different people that showed heavy interest in buying the business and they would even spend one of the guys spent a couple days with me. But dad would call them in a mild tonight or later in the evening and, you know, grant rave on the phone or say crazy things. And they just told me, hey, we’ll deal with you, but we can’t deal with him. And it’s just, it made it awkward.

Jeff Johnson: I’m sure you, yeah, I’m about right. I mean, sanity and insanity just doesn’t rock and roll with business. I mean, you just can’t, you can’t take that chance.

Jay Knudson: You can’t take that chance. And so, you know, they, they back out. So, and I wasn’t going to, it just kept getting worse and worse and worse. He’d set off the alarm at the office. I’d have to go over there and open up and, you know, he’d come out with his gun. You know, pointing it at whatever in the dark and, and I towards the end there, I was down Sun Valley doing some work and the guys are up here working and. As soon as I hit the interstate, my phone lit up a long story short end up meeting the sheriffs that are church chair close. And he had, he had started a fire in the house accidentally. When the fire department came over, they were trying to find, you know, what was going on and he opened the door, put a gun to the head of one of the people there. And that obviously, you know, the police came in. Right. So, they wanted to, they wanted to a good end to everything. And so they asked me if I had a key. And if I would come over and facilitate.

Jeff Johnson: Yes.

Jay Knudson: So, you know, I found myself with seven sheriffs with their guns drawn behind me. And my dad was with his underwear and a gun in the, in the, on the other side of the door. And so, you know, and then they left me with him. And then he yelled at me about it. And then the next morning…

Jeff Johnson: Why in the world would they leave you with him?

Jay Knudson: I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I, they just wanted a good end to the whole thing.

Jeff Johnson: I don’t want to question anybody’s police work, Jay, but. I would think you wouldn’t do that.

Jay Knudson: Okay. Yeah. No, you know what? I don’t blame him for anything. They, you know, they have to put up with a lot. And they’ve had to put up with them. At that time, they had to put up a lot with him anyway. But, no, I, you know, I handled it. And, and I told him, you know, we had our argument about it. And then the next morning, he’s like, what was all big deal? What, what was up? He was that kind of a drunk when he would get drunk. He just, yeah, skits a friend of almost.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know me, Jay, you’ve heard me talk many times about being a recovering person. And I know a lot of, you know, some people get drunk and they get mean and mean and mean. Other people just black out. Other people are just kind of funny and jovial and sloppy and whatever. So I mean, they’re all different kinds. And it sounds sure sounds like your father was a angry sort.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, he had some other issues that just kind of played into things that just made it worse. And, and you know, as time goes right behind sites, 2020, but I always look back and think, man, if I would have had a better choice or better decision, not choice. I’ve better decision when I was 12. Could I’ve gone somewhere else? Could I’ve done something else? You know, instead of getting so involved in the business, could I have made a change? But the fear, the fear of walking away. And because I was, I was taking care of helping him with a lot of his sanity issues. You know, he’d call, he’d call when I said, home and and he would be in tears or in uproar or needing emotional stability and health. You know, I had to kind of help with working with the bankers and the people like that. And he just, and I feared really for my life, if I would kind of leave and didn’t know where to go. And, you know, nowadays, when I’m 61, I think, man, I wish I had made better decisions back then. But I did what I had to do and what I felt was helping, you know.

Jeff Johnson: What kind of different decisions do you think you would have made?

Jay Knudson: I don’t know. I don’t know, Jeff. I, you know, I, it’s probably unfair for me to think that way, but I just wish I would have went somewhere else, lived on my own. I don’t know. You know, I don’t…

Jeff Johnson: I get that gotten clear, gotten clear of that situation a little bit more. I understand what you’re talking about. Yeah. So, okay. Do you mind if I keep you on here for a couple of hours, Jake? Cause I’ve got a lot of questions for you.

Jay Knudson: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: I got a lot of, boy, I got a lot of respect for you, Jay. I mean, there’s some people that have, I don’t mean to qualify it, but there’s all different kinds of courage. But this is sacrificial courage to honor your wife and to do the right thing to walk away from something and it’s, it’s raw courage because you’re dealing with a parent. And as a believer, as a man of faith as you are, you know that we’re supposed to honor our parents. And that can create a difficulty. My mother was a, was a difficult person to deal with. Very difficult. And God rest her soul. She passed away several years ago, but it was hard to know her when she was alive. But when she got sick, I was able to get closer because I could serve her. But it may, it, it caused resentments too, because you’re upset because you’re like, why am I having to do this? And yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I get the kind of courage you’re talking about, Jay.

Jay Knudson: It is. And in this season of life, it’s, it’s caused me some, some issues that I’m now dealing with that I, I would have not thought I would have had to deal with. You know, I, I’ve got some guilt and shame that are probably misplaced. I took care of him when he needed to go into a nurse. Well, I took care of him before, but then when he ended up in nursing home, took care of his bills and all that kind of stuff. He just didn’t want to deal with any of that. And so then he’d be in an out of the hospital. He’d be, you know, my wife would go over clean the cleanest place up. Then he’d tear it all apart. And then when he ended up in the nursing home, he got, I think he got kicked out like four of them. And I mean, he was, he’s like the, your belly is 15 year old I never had. And, you know, and we, her and I both talk about this a lot. I mean, we still felt, even though he didn’t seem like he was physically available, we, we were fearful of him even when he was in the nursing home. He just had that kind of that kind of control. But I wish I could have, it would have been a different relationship then, but it wasn’t. And, and again, I mean, you know what? It is what it is. God has different things, meant for different reasons. And, you know, my wife and I weren’t able to have children. And we didn’t boohoo about that. We just jumped in. We took care of our, we ended up getting the opportunity to take care of our youth group. And our church, we did that for 22 years. And we’ve been incredibly blessed by that. And I’m sure this will be a blessing at some point. And if not, it’s, you know, it’s a short time here on earth. And it’s easy to say it too, you know, but it can be brutal. But I find myself right now having a time with terrible nightmares. And, you know, just going through some issues that I would not have thought I would, I mean, I thought I dealt with all this really early on and got done with it, right? You know, so.

Jeff Johnson: Nightmares that have to do with your dad in situations like that or, yeah. And we were at the end of, if you were at the end of a gun, it was in your father’s hand. I can imagine that would be a very difficult thing to deal with even, even if having for bed, you got used to it over the years, you know, because he did. And it’s a lot of fun.

Jay Knudson: Never get used to it. It’s weird because I would think that you wouldn’t allow that to continue to happen, right? But, yeah, first time he, he used to just chase us out of the house with with one. We just kept our distance, right? But when I was in third grade, it was the first time he put one to actually right to my temple. And then from there on, I mean, it just, you know, just different different tactics, different things. It’s weird how you kind of just assume that’s kind of the norm, right? Yeah. And you just deal with it.

Jeff Johnson: So what, what, what, what did your father do when you closed the business?

Jay Knudson: He, he just kept everything and kind of, we had, he run a dump truck. He tried to keep it going. Yeah, yeah, but he wasn’t, I mean, he just kind of sold it off piece, but peace until he was finally, you know, not able to do anything really at all.

Jeff Johnson: When you were selling insurance, were you, were you helping to take care of your dad?

Jay Knudson: Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Where does that kind of loyalty come from, Jay, when you, when you’ve had a difficult run with your father?

Jay Knudson: Oh, I don’t know. You just kind of do what you got to do. I wasn’t going to let him, some of it was price stupidity. You know, maybe I shouldn’t have. Maybe it was enabling. He didn’t really have anybody else. And anybody coming in contact with, he destroyed the relationship. We have one real good friend that he, he never destroyed that relationship because that’s a good, he’s a good godly man. And him and I still stay in contact. He stuck with him.

Jeff Johnson: What was your mom doing while this was, this was going on?

Jay Knudson: She’s kind of dealing with her own, had a couple granddaughters that were, you know, kind of not treating her well. And so I was, I kind of, you know, kind of helped her along as well as much as we could. But she, she kind of took care of herself. She, she took care of my grandmother for a while. And then her, my sister, my older sister lived together and took care of each other. And then my mom’s health really went down. She had COPD and some other stuff. But it really went quick towards the end there.

Jeff Johnson: So she’s probably not too concerned and you’re not burdening her with any of this business with your dad. She’s just worried about her own issues.

Jay Knudson: No, no, no, in fact, it’s weird. I didn’t realize, you know, I’ve been pretty open book about all this. But I didn’t realize she didn’t know some of it, you know, but gosh, we didn’t say anything. I mean, you aren’t, you aren’t. I had great high school youth minister, growing up. And some very good, very, very blessed with some very good role models and, and people like that. I never really told them, I mean, you wouldn’t say too much, right? Because then, then it becomes an issue of somebody goes to him and says something, you know, then, then it gets bad. And then it turns into a bigger problem for you. Right. If you’ve squealed on your dad and everything, even as an adult. Right. And I didn’t have, I mean, there was no need to bring up any of that. I mean, it’d be more like just complaining or whatever.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, I, I was going to ask you, did you have people that you were walking, that were walking along side you? I mean, did you have an outlet for any of this or did you care you and your wife just carried this yourself?

Jay Knudson: No, no, especially when I was younger, norm, and Lori Wheatley of my youth ministers were great. Chris Hay was their good friend. My wife was very, very strong for me throughout, especially early on in our marriage when things were tight. But no, I had good, good friends. I’ve been, you know, cross-strators. I think gosh, 28, 30 years, something like that, been going there.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Good, godly men there. Oh, such a strong group.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So no, God’s blessed me with a lot of good people to be around and to, to, to see right wrong in different. He’s, you know, he’s always been there, walking me through, talking me through.

Jeff Johnson: So, okay, that’s the other, that’s the other question. How does your faith inform you while you’re walking through this and being courageous?

Jay Knudson: Um, I just, it’s not…

Jeff Johnson: I imagine your prayer life is pretty strong.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, it is. You know, I always, always thought of that when they say, uh, pray, was a prayer constantly. And I always thought, man, that sounds like such a burden, but it isn’t. You know, I mean, it’s, it’s easy because you’re just, you’re in conversation. You’re in conversation with God all the time. It’s a friend, right? And so somebody had told me one time. And this has been helpful. It’s like, just like he’s right next to you in the truck, right? Just sitting next to you. Yeah. And so, yeah, no, prayer life is, uh, you know, is constant and, and beautiful. It’s great. It’s great to have a good friend in God. What more can you ask for?

Jeff Johnson: When, when I did some flight training, I’ve mentioned this on this podcast a long time ago. People won’t remember it, but I did some flight training a long time ago and became a flight instructor. And so I got to do a little bit of training of other people. And it’s interesting because when people get up in a little tiny airplane and they get scared and they get upside down and nothing makes sense. You know, and the sweat starts to beat up. They go one of two ways. Either they get like schizophrenia, like they start talking to the lakes that are underneath them or something. You just kind of like having a weird experience. Or they get hyper focused. And they get on top of solving the problem and flying the plane and taking care of stuff. I mean, you go one of two different ways.

Jay Knudson: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And I think when people get confronted with, this is too much of a generalization, but I’ll make it anyway. I think when people get confronted with difficult situations in life, they deal with it or they don’t. And I am just so impressed, Jay, with the way that you dealt with it. And you pressed into your faith. And you didn’t go off the deep end or something. There must have been times when you were about ready to keep driving that truck until you hit Mexico and then keep going until you hit South America. You know.

Jay Knudson: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I spent, as you said, you know, prayer. So I spent a lot of time in prayer. Good wife. And she was very. A very stable. Presence in my life. You know, God bless me with a good wife. Bless me with great friends. Great. Godly men to be around. And a very solid. And I think that’s a. Presence of him in my. In my mind. Many times did I end up at the chapel at Westchester. Just at my wits end, not knowing. What and where when I went to end of business with my dad, he was already $380,000 into that. And we had nowhere to go. No, I mean, we were just. You know, it was just. You know, we need. We need. We need. And so, you know, week to week, month to month. And I at that time, I was just happy to have a roof over my head. With some sanity around me. Even though it might not be that saying it just was. It was. It was a. It was a positive look ahead, right? And I had control over that versus uncontrolled. Yeah. When I lived with my mom. And so. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think this is what people do when it doesn’t matter what age you are, God will provide. And as long as you put it in his hands and have faith in him. And again, I don’t. It isn’t really me if I had anything to do with it, I screwed it up. Yeah. So for whatever reason. And it’s, I think it’s helped with working with youth. I think it’s helped with a lot of the people that I do volunteer work with and that kind of things.

Jeff Johnson: What was the driver for that working with youth?

Jay Knudson: Oh gosh. I, I think probably just. What I went through, I don’t know, but. I have a huge heart for. Making their lives happy. I don’t. I just enjoy. I enjoy putting. I don’t know the words to use, but. I enjoy making sure they’re stable and they have. They have the stuff to work with. Yeah. And I enjoy loving to see them happy.

Jeff Johnson: Humble giving. Goodness gracious, Jay. I’m sorry to be slobbering on you. I know you don’t appreciate that probably, but. Yeah. There’s a lot of good.

Jay Knudson: It’s not me, right? I mean, we know this. We know this guy. I’m just appreciative that God’s allowed me that because it gives me a lot of pleasure. It gives me a lot of pleasure to be able to do some of these things. And I’m, you know, I’m a terribly ignorant center. And it’s only through the grace of God that the grace of Jesus blood that I’m. I’m able to do it. Is you know, a lot of this stuff is a fun in life. I have a lot of chronic pain. I have a lot of, I’ve been dealing with a lot right now just from some of this past stuff. But yeah, again, it’s, it’s not up to me. And I just wait to hear from God and see what he has to tell me about it. And then I do what I can do, you know,

Jeff Johnson: your sisters have that same kind of faith?

Jay Knudson: My oldest sister. It’s got good faith. I don’t know about my younger sister. It’s, it’s a little more difficult probably there. They were, I think they were hurt a lot more by it. I think if they took it a little more, I don’t know. Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Who do you look up to for courage? When you think about courage in a person, you’re looking in the mirror. I’m telling you, Jay to look in the mirror because there’s courage right there. And certainly your wife, what you’ve been talking about about your wife. But what, who do you think about when you think about courageous people?

Jay Knudson: Stable. Humble. Not quick to react. Grace filled. I’ve got some pastors I listened to that I think are pretty cool. I would say, Joe, be martin. You know, have you seen him?

Jeff Johnson: I will now that you mentioned him though.

Jay Knudson: Well, you love him. Joe, be martin Gary Hammrich, Mark Driscoll, James Dobson, you know, James. Yeah. But yeah, I mentioned my youth pastor. He was, he was very, very good at that point in my life. Norm Wheatley, he was just amazing for me.

Jeff Johnson: I give myself license to ask probing questions and you’re under no obligation to answer any of them, Jay. So I’m just going to go ahead and ask, why do you, why do you think the Lord allowed you to go through what you went through?

Jay Knudson: I think so that I would be prepared, prepared to be able to do whatever work he’s calling me to do. And, and that sounds a little conceited, I think. But I think just to be prepared. And, you know, and maybe I wasn’t, maybe I wasn’t, you know, maybe I couldn’t handle being having it better. You know, I mean, maybe my, I don’t know, you know, when I was born, I had the purse for a mega coal and then, and I darn your died and, and I look back and think, gosh, that would have been so sweet, right? If I’d have passed in, I’d have been right into it. But, but now I’m, you know, 61 years into it and, you know,

Jeff Johnson: had something for you to do.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, I’ve got, so whatever it is and, and, you know, I just, I enjoy, I enjoy bringing happiness and peace where I came from. And peace where I can. And for, you know, for God’s glory. And, and there’s times where I just always pray that I can make it that way, right? Because there’s times where I don’t feel that I’m giving him the glory.

Jeff Johnson: I, were you born like this optimistic and positive and. I wish I could, I wish I could scoot you out of the way now and ask your wife some questions. No, but she probably, she probably jumped right in. Yeah. But were you born like this?

Jay Knudson: I’m guessing so. I’m guessing so. And it could have been through the surgery. She, you know, I mean, at one point after the third surgery, because they had to do it.

Jeff Johnson: And tell me about that illness. I don’t think we’ve got that characterized for the listeners yet. What you went through.

Jay Knudson: So it’s called her strong mega colon. Nothing exciting about it other than back in the sixties. They didn’t know much about it. Dr. Arty Soapur had just left Madison, Wisconsin and come to the University of Iowa about eight months before I ended up there. I’m sure did not know what was wrong with me and my, my family doctor had a, he had a thought he thought something and my parents thought something was wrong. Something different. Yeah. And my dad actually physically picked up a doctor down at the hospital and put him against wall and said, you’re sending my son, Iowa City. And our family doctor told him you get that kid, Iowa City, no matter what. So anyway, they got me there. They created emergency surgery. After the third surgery, because I had to do surgery, then they had to do biopsies or biopsies. That’s it’s the colon has the muscles and the nerves that tell it what to do. And the only thing what this is is it’s just a lack of nerves in certain spots of the colon. So they had to find where those nerves were not. And back then, I don’t think they really had anything like the MRIs and things like that where they could really see that well. Yeah. And so after the third surgery, they told my mom and dad they said, well, the kid refuses to die. So we’re just going to keep on well.

Jeff Johnson: And how old are you?

Jay Knudson: This is first 18 months. Okay. Yeah. So I didn’t know anything. Right. But I spent many years after that going back and forth, back and forth to Iowa City. And I grew to hate going to the hospital. I grew to hate the smell of it. Yeah. Yeah. Even even a boards of six grade. I mean, I would, I’d have to go and they’d have to. I would have to go and get a little bit of a scar tissue, so much issues with. Not being able to go and different things like that. Yeah. I will say this. I was. Third grade or so I was back in Iowa City for a couple of weeks. And I was in a big room with a lot of kids. Different various issues. There was a kid in there that had a brain tumor and back then, you know, his parents give me a small picture of Jesus. I still have that thing today. It’s all taped up. You know, but I still, I, I have that thing. It’ll never leave.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Jay Knudson: His parents were very gracious, very nice. They were very nice to me in a way that I mean, I always, you know, you always wanted that, right? You know, and so I really, I really appreciated that. I was very grateful to this day. I could always find those, those people. I’m sure they may be gone, but now I mean, they, they’d be as old as my parents are older. So yeah. But anyway, so that kind of a…

Jeff Johnson: that kind of a sweet sentiment to you when you’re in sixth grade. Third grade, yeah. Third grade makes that kind of an impression. And then to know to put this with the rest of your story, Jay, and to know what else you’re going through back at home. Even adds so much more to it. So you’re dealing with that difficult home life. And then you’ve got this physical malady. You hate going to the doctor. Okay. So back to the, back to the colon story. Because you said, I would, I originally asked you, are you, were you always like this? And you said, maybe as an offshoot of the surgery.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine, you know, some people say, I don’t know. I would say, God, just instilled an enemy to deal with what I had in the old world. I would deal with what I hadn’t deal with, right? And maybe that was a start of the surgery, whatever, nine surgeries and whatever, how many ever biopsies. There’s a picture I have. My dad used to carry it around. It’s me with a big hole in my stomach laying on the table laughing when I was a baby. You know, in between sometimes they didn’t sew me up. So it really is. Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty crazy. Anyway, I would just say that, you know, God just, he was preparing me for whatever. He was leading me through. He just guided me through it. So, you know, there’s just no reason to really be negative about it or worried about it. So.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, you’re back to the, back to the Raven Hill quote, which you know you’ve heard me talk is one of my favorites. A man with an experience of God is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. And gosh, Jay, you have had an experience with the Lord walking along in very difficult. Very difficult seasons.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I’m 61 and those seasons are noble. You know, it’s when I’ve required a few years ago, I want to spend more time. In the word, more time, volunteer and, and you know, Satan has tried to attack me. Even more now.

Jeff Johnson: So what how so robbing your time.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, that and with the nightmares and different, different things. Just that I have not dealt with before.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you’re in trouble now, Jay, because I, I know the weatherman. I know the guy, I know the guy upstairs and I’m going to be Jack Hammer and him to give you, to give you some really green pastures. Yeah. For the rest of the day.

Jay Knudson: I’ll take it.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, man. Well, when you’re okay. Again, sensitive questions. Forgive me, Jay. Are you, were you reconciled with your father when he passed? How did that? Did he turn into a really nice man the last couple years?

Jay Knudson: No, no, he didn’t. And I’ll say reconciled. Yes, but not all the way. As much as we could be, but he would not. He kept control over those emotional cycles, you know, or pieces. So we were reconciled, right? You know, we were, hey, we forgive you. We forgive whatever. But he continued to play mind games. And he was like, hey, I’m going to tell the Burian. Just being, just being a difficult personality.

Jeff Johnson: The whole time you’re helping him and everything. Yeah. Did you, did you experience some kind of a catharsis when he passed away? Explain. Well, because when you’re, I guess, Jay, forgive me. I’m going to, I can’t, I apologize in my way through this whole interview. I don’t think I’m that bad of an interviewer. I’m just, I’m just working on it. Okay. So here’s what I’m going to say, Jay, because I had a difficult relationship with my mother, except for when she got really, really, really sick. Then I was able to get close, be a caretaker with her, even though she was still a little mean. When she passed away, I had a hard time dealing with those emotions. Because there was a relief. And then there was a longing. There was a little bit of a difficult scenario that I had been in for the longest period of time that I had grown familiar with. And it was difficult to have that gone. I didn’t know where I was standing. Do you know what I mean?

Jay Knudson: I do. Yeah. And, and I would say yes. It was very difficult when he passed. A lot of relief. And then a lot of guilt for that relief, right? And a lot of like unfinished business. And the thing was, was, you know, we tried to, and I tried to, you know, have that mended. And he wouldn’t have anything. And he just, it was like guilt control up to the end. And, and it’s, it’s a painful thing because you can’t do anything about it. And about the time you do think your things are squared away, then he pulls another mind game. Yeah. And then you feel guilty. But it’s a, it’s a tough game. And the only thing to set you free is, you know, my faith with God. And that’s still, it’s still painful. It’s still painful. And it’s still hard to do because I’m a sinful body, right? You know, I’ve only got so much city. And so, and I’m dealing with a lot of that right now because I spent so many years. I’m trying to relax. And like my mind and my body right now are not going together with that. And so I’m doing an M, this is M, E, M, D, R, therapy.

Jeff Johnson: Yep. Which I just started.

Jay Knudson: And I’m hoping that that will kind of be the key that kind of helps move this. I never had any trouble with drinking or anything like that before. I never really did. Didn’t have time didn’t want to. And the last year or so, it’s, it, it has been a big relief. Like self-medication.

Jeff Johnson: And that is not good. Yeah. Yeah. Right. As you know, right. Right.

Jay Knudson: And so I can’t. It’s like that. Snuck up and said, hey, look at me. Let’s do this now. And let’s just get drunk all the time and see how that works. And it never does.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. It doesn’t work. No, it just, it’s. So. I think you’re very wise to do this. I have heard people that have gone through that that have had great success with it. Jay. And once again, I know the weatherman. So I’m going to be Jack Hammer and him with some prayers to give you some relief. Because that, that’s exactly where it comes from. God says the only sacrifice is pleasing to him as a broken spirit. And, you know, we can, we can all raise our hand about that and bring our stuff to him. And, and he’s faithful to, to deal with that. So maybe through this EMDR is a great avenue to, to do that, you know.

Jay Knudson: Yeah. And, you know, here’s the kicker, right? So one of the kids that we had in our youth group, we’ve stayed in contact with a lot of these kids over the years. And now they’re all in their 40s, right? So they’re not kids. Yeah. But we, we stayed in contact with them, do a lot with them and their kids. Matter of fact, at the end of this week, we, I get to spend some time taking them to school and picking them up and stuff, you know. But the one of these kids that we had in class, she is now a Christian counselor. And she has been telling me about this EMDR. And I just, it just kind of hit me about a month or two ago. And I said, okay, well, tell me, because I had been researching, um, is it ketamine ketamine? And there’s another, yeah. But those, the other two involve taking a drug. And then you go through a period of whatever. So this is no, there’s no drugs involved at this.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I, yeah, I think that’s wonderful. I wish you great success with that for sure, Jay. And God is just faithful. He’s not, he’s not going to leave you for a second. He’s going to be right there with you. So you’re doing all the right things. Um, I, you should, I shouldn’t say should. I like the idea of you having influence on people and being able to share your story. I’ve got such a powerful testimony. And the way that you walk through this is so valuable. Our listeners are going to be super blessed by it. Do you have opportunities to share with other people?

Jay Knudson: I do. And, and I, I’m gained to share any time with anybody. I, I feel that that is a part of what God is designed with all this. And there’s really, it’d be a waste if I didn’t have that opportunity to be able to speak to some, because some, some people are, this is such a, a kind of a hellhole form, you know, and it to be free of that mental pain. Yeah. And, and God is, is their form. And, and so yeah, if I can, I’m more than happy and, and I do whenever I can.

Jeff Johnson: And so yeah, I’ll be praying that you get, that you get some microphones or you get some one on ones or you get some one on 100s or something like that to, to share. You just know that there’s people going through the similar kind of thing and for you to be able to share how you. Navigate it all of this with such strong faith is that’s the, that’s the blessing. That’s the way out. Okay. So being equipped with this kind of courage, walking in this kind of courage for 61 years as you have. Do you feel equipped? I mean, do you feel like I can take on anything? I mean, what is, what is this courage done to you?

Jay Knudson: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I’m not, is the world what called? I’m not educated in that way and that’s fine. I would take great pride in that. You know, the world, right? Isn’t a good, a good guide to go by. But, but yeah, no, I mean, yeah, I, whatever, whatever needs to happen needs to happen. And as long as I have got, I mean, that’s all you need. And I need to be able to stay strong in my faith. And that would be the only, the only thing there is I need to be able to ward off the enemy. So yeah.

Jeff Johnson: I’m, I’m, I’m Jay. I’m a better man for spending an hour here with you talking about this topic. And I am, I hope you hear my heart on that. I am really grateful. Thank you for being so transparent with your story. And thank you for sharing with all of us. And Jay Knudson I’m a humble man. Man that’s been there and done that. And a man is such great courage. God bless you. Thank you so much for sharing with us today.

Jay Knudson: Yeah, I appreciate it, Jeff. And I, I appreciate you and, and always appreciate when you share her and love hearing about it all over. Yes. The best grandson ever.

Announcer: Yeah. Thank you, Jay. Yep. Thank you for joining us today on courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on courageous send us an email at info at crossroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.