Faith, Family, and Fallout: A Mayor’s Most Courageous Decision

In this powerful episode of Courageous Crossroads, Dean O’Connor—entrepreneur, mayor, and former lifelong member of a fundamentalist church—shares the most courageous decision of his life: walking away from the rigid faith he was born into. With raw honesty, Dean unpacks what it meant to grow up under strict religious rules, how leaving affected his family and identity, and why choosing truth over tradition reshaped his entire worldview. Now the president of a thriving window cleaning business and the longtime mayor of Altoona, Iowa, Dean reveals how courage, for him, is less about grand gestures and more about being honest with yourself—no matter the cost. His journey through religious deconstruction, leadership, and community service offers a rare, unfiltered look at what it means to live with integrity, lead with heart, and keep moving forward when everything familiar falls away.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey, everybody. This is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. I’m super excited for you to hear from my next guest, Dean O’Connor. I’m not excited for you to have to put up with congestion in my voice. I apologize. Not feeling the best, but that didn’t stop Dean and I from having a wonderful conversation about him, his work, his history, his family, all sorts of things. And, you know, sometimes you’re around people and you recognize the success that they have. You see this kind of orbit of excellence that surround them and the people that they surround themselves with and the quality of their family and their work product and that sort of thing, but you never really know what’s happened to them in the past to culminate to the person that’s standing in front of you. And we’ve got a real treat with Dean Dean O’Connor today. We’re gonna learn a lot about his back history, about his story that’s filled with courage, that’s really gonna inspire you, and, it’s turned into the man that that you’re gonna hear from right now. So without further ado, Dean O’Connor, and he starts off with telling us a little bit of a story about a a heart ailment that he had a few years back. So here’s Dean.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Yeah. I was I was, actually, I was playing golf in Naples National with some guys, and then I was flying up to Nashville to play golf with a bunch of Echo Valley guys. And I got there a day earlier, and I was in a hotel by myself, had dinner, went up, watched a movie on my tablet, called my wife. No. Went to bed after talking to my wife. Woke up shortly after midnight. Chest was on fire, like, from shoulder just on fire. Called my wife. She’s like, I can’t help you. You gotta call 911. So I called 911, blocked my door open, called her back, and then sat on the bed until they came and got me. And they walked in and said, sir, you’re having a heart attack and gave me a nitro. Put this under your, like basically, from what I told them on the phone, they knew I was having a heart attack. So, yeah, I had my full RCA. The two arteries that feed the bottom muscles of your heart were 100% blocked in 95. The LED was 95, the widowmaker. But if it was the opposite way, I would have just died in my bed.

Jeff Johnson: Did you have indications beforehand?

Dean O’Connor: Six months of full on, yeah. Yes. If I look back, I yes. I had fatigue, shortness of breath, loss of strength, and to the point where I and other people commented about it. So I had all the signs and just freaking ignore them.

Jeff Johnson: Just roll right through there.

Dean O’Connor: That’s right. Yeah. Pretty smart. Pretty smart.

Jeff Johnson: Oh my goodness. Well, we’re already touching on a little bit of courage then, Dean, going through that and whatever the recovery must have been tailed.

Dean O’Connor: Two weeks later, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer, so we had a really rough kind of December there. But we’re both good. We’re both out of it and can’t complain. Everything’s good.

Jeff Johnson: Well, she’s healthy. You’re healthy. Praise God for that. That’s wonderful.

Dean O’Connor: Yep. No.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Well, let’s roll it back here just a little tiny bit. Thanks for joining me on the courageous crossroads today. Dean, you and I have known each other for a little bit because I somehow finagled my way into your breakfast club. So I don’t know how I made it into yours. But that’s okay. But, I’m looking forward to getting to know more about you. So maybe for the benefit of our listeners, if you wanna put yourself into context, you know, fill in with whatever bona fides you want, but I I’m thinking, you know, born and raised, and where’d you go to school and work and

Dean O’Connor: Basic basic basic history. Right? Yeah. Well, I’m 59 years old. I was born in Ainsworth, Iowa. I was actually born at home. I’m one of six kids. Actually, seven. I got a new sister. You heard about that.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. So I have a half sister as well I just learned about. But, my parents moved. So I grew up in the Washington, Ainsworth areas where my family’s from, but they moved to Indianola when I was one. I spent, one through the end of fourth grade in Indianola. We moved to Altoona because my dad’s window cleaning business was kinda getting going big in Des Moines, And then Altoona was closer to Des Moines, so it was more convenient for him. So we moved to Altoona. My parents still live in that house we moved into in 1977. And I grew up going to Southeast Polk, fifth grade on. I grew up in the Altoona area. I really care about the community, obviously. Spent, you know, formative high school years and all that there. Great friends. They still my high school class still has five year reunions. We just had our fortieth. I organized them, but we had 50 people there. And it was great to see everybody. But yeah, very, very close class. That’s good. Then I went to a liberal arts college out in Pasadena, California that was associated with the religious church that the church that I grew up in worldwide Church of God, called Ambassador to College. It’s now defunct, but that was 1985. I spent four years in Pasadena. Really had a fabulous time. Great. Enjoyed it. Pasadena back then was cool. I mean, it’s pretty crowded now. But, my wife is also was at college. She was two years ahead of me. Her name’s Dawn. I met her when I was a freshman. I was smitten. I chased her for a while. I had had to get rid of one boyfriend, but eventually landed her. And, we oops. Sorry. I bought my camera there. Right. We actually got married after my junior year of college. She was out of school and working in Pasadena, and we rented a duplex down in South Pasadena, just south of where the college was. And, she worked, and I washed the windows because I grew up washing windows from my dad, my dad’s business. And I washed windows, had a little route with a truck and drove around and went to school and worked and went to school and worked. And you know what? I was we had zero money. I mean, we budgeted down to the penny. Right. But, you know, I look back that that year, my senior year of college is just it was busy, but it was fun. We had a lot of fun. And then I got her to move back to Iowa. And we moved right back to Altoona. Lived in an apartment for a while, bought a house, had a kid, moved to another house, had another kid, moved to a different house, moved again. So I’ve been in Altoona now, you know, my own entire life except for the four years of college and, you know, before

Jeff Johnson: And what was your trade when you moved back to Iowa?

Dean O’Connor: My trade? Your trade? My job. Yeah. My job. Yeah. I came back and worked in the family business.

Jeff Johnson: So this is a significant window cleaning business.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s 56 years old. We have 55 employees.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: We’re by far the largest in the state. I mean, the next closest one is couple owner operators with some helpers. I mean, we’re the only ones that have full time employees, work comp, proper insurance, health benefits, like health insurance, dental, disability and life insurance, a retirement program. I mean, we run it like we’re the only ones that actually run a company like that. Everybody else is kinda couple man operation or they’re a little division of a janitorial company. So

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. And this is commercial and this is our residential, commercial, residential, and all that?

Dean O’Connor: We do residential and commercial window cleaning, pressure washing, soft washing, restoration work like caulking and things like that. We also do roof anchor inspections and testing. So the stuff that we hang off of, we inspect and test for buildings that need it. And, yeah, we’re there’s our presidential is about 35% of our business right in there. It kinda bounces between thirty five and forty depending on the area. And the rest is commercial and some of that building restoration stuff. So, yeah, we hang off buildings, but we also do the small, you know, little restaurants. So we have about five or six guys, can’t remember now, do we call commercial route. One guy in a truck going around doing businesses.

Jeff Johnson: Yep.

Dean O’Connor: We have, I think, 10 residential crews, which is two people in a truck. And then the rest are high rise, man lifts, commercial stuff, big jobs. And anything that’s large will go all over the state. So we we we travel the state for big jobs. But, the smaller stuff and residential, we just kinda keep it basically in the Des Moines region and then everybody’s lake houses that are outside of Des Moines. We

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: We do a lot of Panora and Sun Valley and things like that.

Jeff Johnson: Uh-huh. So We don’t go to South Africa. You don’t wanna go to South Africa? Doggone it.

Dean O’Connor: Well, those windows are dirty there too. They need some help. Okay. So I Let me back let me back that up. Yeah. When I got back from college, it was 1989. My brother, was in the business, but he never went to college. He just worked right out of high school. He’s two years older. When I got back, we kind of wanted to change how we ran the business. And we kind of got in a little spat with my dad about it. Nothing crazy, but know how the family businesses are.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And he basically said threw up his arms, said, fine. You guys run it like you want. Because we were about 12 people, counting the three of us back then. And we were top heavy. I mean, I was washing windows all the time. And my brother and I took over running it. We started growing it and pushing it and changing it and just just it’s it was a lot of work. I remember having kids and washing windows and scheduling jobs and hiring employees and firing employees. And it was a crazy time. It was a really struggle. And we finally got I think 02/2013, we went did some consulting with a buddy of mine and kinda got my it’s one of those stories where you get out of it was the classic working in your business instead of on your business. I mean, it was just that exactly. I somehow had to extrapolate myself from the day to day operations working and really look and see what we needed to do. And so that was life changing and transformative for me personally and and the business as well. So, yeah, it’s it’s really good. I can’t complain. Out of best two years, the last two years. So

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Well, congratulations on your success. And that’s, you know, coming from a family business, I don’t take a lot of credit in that at all as you well know, Dean, but ours is a 118 years old. And Pogo the cartoonist Pogo said, if you wanna be a great leader, find a parade and run-in front of it. And so many times, I feel like that’s exactly what what I’ve done. My predecessors did a great job, but but it sounds like you and your brother did something very different, you know, where you take something from a small proprietorship and and expand it and have it turn into a fully mature business. That’s it. That’s yeoman’s work, their deed. So congratulations on that.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. That was before EO and all these business groups and you know, we made a lot of us. We figured it out ourselves and finally kind of had got some help eventually. But yeah, we made a lot of mistakes. But, you know, we learned a lot from it too. We personally and, you know, business wise, it it’s made me who I am.

Jeff Johnson: So now you’re still involved with the company. You run the company still.

Dean O’Connor: Yep. I’m the president. My brother and I are fifty fifty owners, but I’m the president. I’m more of the out there business development face of the business. I’m the final say, he he’s we’re kinda runs the office. He he he runs the two office. Three, two and a half office people. Then he he just doesn’t he likes to stay in the office. He doesn’t really care. Like, he does he doesn’t really like people. He doesn’t need to he can be around people. And I I like I get energy from people. They exhaust him. So it it really is perfect.

Jeff Johnson: Well, isn’t that isn’t that a secret to success is not only knowing what you’re good at, but knowing what you’re not good at too and and finding your spot. I mean, this is what I think God does is he equips people with certain gifts and capabilities, and you can buck that all day long if you want to, or you can respond to it and say, this is exactly what I’m good at and follow that and then find all the joy and success. So sounds like you guys have done it.

Dean O’Connor: He if we had two of me, we would be awful.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: If we had two of him, we would be awful.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And so it’s really worked out well. Just and he he we work really well together. We haven’t always. But now we we’re we’re really lock in step, and he’s 62. I’m 59. He’s 61. And so we’re you know, it’s Okay. We’ll see. I mean, I have to plan on working for ten more years. I I enjoy what I do, and I I have plenty of free time. So

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, I also know you as a political person. Is that correct?

Dean O’Connor: That is correct.

Jeff Johnson: Tell me tell me about that. God bless your loving heart.

Dean O’Connor: I’ve been at it for thirteen and a half years, and, I was on city council for six years or four year terms. And, kinda back I’ll tell you about it, then I’ll kinda back up and explain a little bit. The first term council, halfway through the second year, it could term a council, our mayor passed away. Cancer. And so I ran for the seat at the end of that year. And so I split my middle term of four years, half council, half mayor. So I was six council. And then I became mayor, and I’ve been mayor ever since. So whatever 13 and a half minus six is. Yeah. That number. That’s how long I’ve been mayor. I’ve got two and a half years left. It’ll be sixteen when I’m done. I’m planning on running one more time. That’ll give me twenty years at that. You know, I grew up in the community. I I kinda care about the community. But what got me into it was I was running the sock or Altoona’s rec pro soccer programs. They’re all run by volunteer boards. And I was on the soccer board and myself and another individual said we need more soccer fields. And so we went to the city, said we need bigger soccer fields. We need softball, baseball to expand into our old space. Kinda just got the ball rolling, went and found some ground, and then we now have Spring Creek Sports Complex. It’s 14 soccer fields, and the turf field in the middle doubles as a football field. And, it’s been transformative for the community as what we needed at the time. It took a lot of work. I mean, I didn’t know anything about politics. I I mean, I’d never been to a city council meeting. And just working through the process of all that. And and again, Altoona was very different back then. It was very small. Staff was smaller, not as sophisticated as we are now. And so there were some hurdles and work through it. And a couple of my friends, Scott Mertz was one of them, were on council at the time. They said, man, you should run for city council. And darn it, I did it. So and I was so involved in my kids sports in high school, and I was so well known, and I got elected really easily. And so I’ve just kind of rode that. And then as mayor, nobody runs against me, so it’s pretty easy. And I I think my my business side of my life really because I deal with real estate people and developers, and I know all of that crowd. And and even in my connections with my breakfast clubs, I bring all of that. And Kyle Mertz did this as well. He was one of the first council members that actually was outside the community and brought his knowledge and information and connections back to the community. And I did the same thing. And it’s been really good for the community. I’m I’m kind of like the advocate for developers. They call me all the time. I meet with them. I know a lot of them. And so I think my personality, my business, and my connections has really helped me be a better mayor, better council member, and it’s been really good for the community.

Jeff Johnson: I think that’s fantastic, Dean. That so I have one other friend of mine that was a mayor, and he was mayor of a really small town in Pennsylvania. And it was just because nobody else would do it. And so he did it and whatever.

Dean O’Connor: It happens.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. But hearing hearing his story, you know, I got to appreciate maybe a little bit more of the altruistic side of being in government and doing that sort of thing. You know, I’m so jaded like probably most everybody else that watches Fox or CNN or MSNBC or any of these other channels, and we all think that politicians are people that are in it for, you know, narcissistic reasons and that sort of thing. Right. Talk a little bit more about because I think that’s wonderful, your service there. Talk a little bit more about the altruistic side of being a mayor out in Altoona because you’ve been able to really have an impact and do some good out there without wanting to be president of The United States. You know?

Dean O’Connor: Right. Yes. Yeah. I don’t wanna be past city government because I see state government, and you don’t accomplish anything at state government level. You just sit there and do whatever your party says tell you to do. So, yeah, you really it’s very rewarding in one way because you get to see, you know, you you do something and you see the results. You use something, you see the results, whether it’s, you know, a a new building or a new road repair or whatever it is, new sports complex. You you kinda have immediate success success and good feelings, good about the community, and the and the citizens see it too. And so you really feel like you’re accomplishing something. And one thing that I’ve learned about myself, through being city council and mayor, because it’s a big time commitment. Well, for me, it is because I really go if I’m in something, I’m I’m all in. If I’m on a board, I’m educate myself. I I’m there. I’ll get on the executive board. I wanna learn about it. I wanna find out what’s going on, and I wanna make an impact and a difference. I wanna make it better. I wanted I I just love I love change. I I I think change is so awesome. I love it change. But one thing I’ve really learned that’s really gave given me the good feeling about myself is that I’ve learned through my business and city council being mayor is that I really love helping others become better. And not the best way. I need to find a better way to say that, but but improve their lives and improve themselves. I see I started with my employees, and I have a lot of the employees that grew up with me. They were, you know, they didn’t even graduate school, high school. And they started off as young guys, and now they’re my operations managers. And to a person, they all tell me that I’m my father figure to them, and they’re the man they are because of me. And that is the part of it that really makes me feel good about helping others. And that’s the same thing with Altoona. I really feel like I elevate the staff because I know how to treat them. I know I treat them with respect. I really elevate and give them all the credit. Like, when I’m the mayor, my job, like, like a council meeting, just get out in front of the topics and kind of take the bullets for the council. That’s my job is to be out in front and take the hits because they’re the ones that vote. I don’t vote. And so I really feel like I’m very impactful because I’m good at that. It’s what it’s what I like to do. I’ve grown as a as an individual to be better at it. And nothing better than having some high school my friend’s high school daughter asked me to write a reference letter for her to get into Drake Law School. And so I those, though, to me, those are very, very impactful.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And it’s life changing for them. Because whether it whether it mattered or not, to them, it did. And so I’ve had a lot of situations like that, that it just because I’m mayor, now I mean something, then I can help them.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I love that. I I love that, Dean, and that’s that’s impactful for our listeners too because somebody needs to hear, be unapologetic about the gifts that God’s given you and just walk in those. That’s exactly what it’s what it is. People need somebody like Dean O’Connor to be the mayor of a of a major city because you’re because of your mindset, and you bring out the best in others. I think that’s wonderful. Okay. So here at the Courageous Crossroads, we come down to the one question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And before I ask you that, I wanna ask you a couple of things. First of all, take me back to Ambassador College because you said something really quick there about that was a religious and that school is no longer in existence, and it’s out in California. Is that was it in California?

Dean O’Connor: Yep. And back to Pasadena, California. Yeah. Just outside LA.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. How did that I feel like there’s a story there.

Dean O’Connor: Well, you’re gonna walk me right into it. My my one courageous thing. So

Jeff Johnson: Okay. What’s the most outrageous thing you’ve ever done? Yeah. Let’s hear it.

Dean O’Connor: I mean, I’ve done a lot with business and things like that and family. But, man, there was one that it really will in leaving that religion was it. So I grew up, and you kinda you and I kinda just talked talked about this briefly at Breakfast Club. But I grew up from birth in the Worldwide Church of God. It was started by Herbert w Armstrong. It was originally back in the thirties, I believe, the Radio Church of God. And historically, he got his foundation from seventh seventh day.

Jeff Johnson: Advent day. Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: Way back in the thirties. And then they he parted ways and kinda got his own thing going. And then he grew that thing. I mean, he was a master salesman marketer before his time. And, he’s he moved his headquarters to Pasadena, California. He ended up starting a college here. I was just looking at the numbers before the podcast. I think they had at their height, they had 200,000,000 in revenue. And I think

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: A 100,000 members worldwide. It was an international church. I mean, he was a TV preacher before TV preachers were cool.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: We’ll call them cool. That they don’t mean it that way, but before it was a thing. You know, before it was a thing, he was it. And they had the Plain Truth magazine. I was just looking that up. It was, like, 8,000,000 subscribers. It was free, but it was, I mean, it was it was big time. But it was a Sabbath keeping church, very fundamental. Like, we believed in the the Old Testament and follow the rules of the Old Testament, but we also believe we just believe that the New Testament was an extension of the old, not a transformation. It was you still kept the Old Testament, but, yes, Jesus Christ came to save you in baptism and all that. We bapt we baptized and all that. But we we held on to the old testament rules and regulations and holy days. I mean, we we kept all of the old testament holy days. And we also didn’t observe the pagan holidays at per our pagan holidays as in Easter, Christmas, we many of us didn’t even observe birthdays because their origins are in bad things and pagans. I mean, Christmas comes from a pagan sun god worship at the time. I mean, yeah, it’s original origins. But so I mean, I grew up very fundamentalist and very different.

Jeff Johnson: Your parents were involved in this from the day you were born.

Dean O’Connor: Correct. My mom was my mom’s parents were in it and then brought my dad into it. So Yeah. My mom was in it before I was born. So and then my dad got into it too. So I grew up in it, but what made me what was difficult about it and very challenged, but also made me who I am. So I now if I’m speak negative, it is. But it is what we all have our challenges in life.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: Always felt weird because start even starting in elementary school, when we were doing Christmas things, I had to go to the library and read a book because I couldn’t do I couldn’t, like, color a Christmas tree or cut out Christmas trees and do all that stuff. I remember one day, it was a Christmas program where you went around room to room doing the different projects. And the teacher forgot because you’re a little that was a first grader. And you had to remember to tell her I can’t do this. And I said, that’s true. And I just, I just did it all. And then I had to take it all home. And I was remember as I was walking home, because it was in a nail hole at the time, and I just threw it in somebody’s trash can. I just, because I couldn’t bring it home.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: But I grew up with a lot of, you know, guilt, a lot of rule following a lot of since we kept the Saturday Sabbath very strictly, it really affected my high school life. I was very involved and had great friends, and they all understood me. But but I played sports until I couldn’t anymore, and I was very athletic. But I couldn’t do anything from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. So think of all the high school sports that happened on Friday night, Saturday, Saturday night. And so once I got to a certain age, I I kinda had to bag out of I ran cross country because I could do that. But you couldn’t play football. You couldn’t.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: I couldn’t play football. Basketball ended about sophomore year because it just couldn’t work anymore.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: I played a little JV in my my junior year, but then it’s, like, if I can’t go to games, why put effort into me? Which I understood. But I’d always felt different, you know. And and what’s funny though, I have a good buddy from high school, and I was kinda telling him this a couple years ago. And he goes, you know what? Sure. We knew that was all different, but we had our own problems we were worried about. We weren’t thinking about you. I said that makes a lot of sense. So but it just it was weird for me. It was very weird growing up. I mean, it was very, you know, what, Saturday, Sabbath every day, and our church was the Des Moines church. So it was everybody from Des Moines. And we met at a rented lodge on Second Avenue called Victoria Lodge. It’s still there. And, it was it was just weird. It’s just weird. And so that takes me going to the church college, Ambassador College.

Jeff Johnson: A lot of people in Des Moines members. I mean, how big is that congregation? Would you guess?

Dean O’Connor: 150. Okay. 100. Yeah. 150.

Jeff Johnson: So not It was not. Not all the people in the world, but that’s a church.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Yeah. Especially back in the eighties. Yeah. Seventies and eighties. I was lucky. I I met a lot of friends at college that weren’t as lucky as me that there were a lot of families with, boys, very cool boys, the same age as my brother and I. And so we had an incredible friend group in our church, but we were lucky. And so, that made the experience they’re really good friends even to this day. Oh. But I decided to go to college, and so I just applied to Ambassador College because it was easy. And I got accepted. And I exploded my suitcase and flew out to Pasadena all by myself. And I was 19.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Dean O’Connor: Show up. Somebody picks me up. I’m in my dorm. I’m just finding my way through it. I it was it was a little different. I you know, I’m not a a fairly confident guy now. I go into your room now. And, you know, when you’re 19, and you don’t have the life experiences you have now, it it was rough. It was rough for about six months. But finally found my way. I found my friends, found my place. Really enjoyed the church. Now I it’s a I have a BA in theology. And and but it was really mostly indoctrinating with I mean, you should see my Bible. I I I’ll bring it to cut sometime. It’s

Jeff Johnson: I wanna see. It looks like somebody spent a lot of time in that thing. Is it the same is it is it my bible? Same

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s in King James, normal version. Yeah. Okay.

Jeff Johnson: Well, can I back up and ask you a question? Did you did you at any point in high school when you had to quit basketball or couldn’t do football or anything like that, did you have did you have any gumption to say to your mom and dad, what are we doing? Or were you was it because you didn’t know

Dean O’Connor: I was all in. Different, so you were like, this is what we do? I was all in. Yep. Yeah. All in. I had a sister that was kinda it’s it’s funny. Sorry. The my sister that was kinda rebellious and left as a teenager and all that. I think she’s the only one that goes to church now. She she flipped and we flipped. And so but, no. I was all in. Very committed. Felt guilty about things that I shouldn’t be doing. I think the only vice my buddies and all did is we drank too much. Our drinking was our one thing. We never did drugs. I mean, I didn’t have sex in high school, and I had lots of opportunities. Right. Like, that was bad, and I couldn’t do it. It’s like

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: But, you know, it’s probably a good thing. It’s probably a good thing. So

Jeff Johnson: Probably. I mean yeah.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Everything’s good and bad. You can look at it however you want, but it formed who I was. And, you know, I went off to college and, was all in college. I mean, they’re you’re really all in. I mean, you’re they’re teaching the teaching you. I learned a lot, though. It’s very strict in how you dress. Like we dressed up a lot. Yeah. I mean, wear a sports jacket and tie a lot. There was a every year I had a speaking class, public speaking course every year. Every from freshman to senior. And then we had spokesman’s club, which is just Toastmasters, but redesigned for us, where you go through the different types of speeches. I’ve been through that program a couple of times. And so I had an incredible amount of teaching and learning of experiences of just how to treat other people, how to be respectful, how to public speak. Now I’m still a casual speaker. I’m not very but this is who I am. But I gained so much from all of that. I mean, because a lot of times, part of it is they were teaching ministers to come out of there, but I was never gonna be that. But, I just the experiences of my classes were you know, there’s the normal college classes, but there was just a lot of leaning towards religious classes as well. Mhmm. And so I had a great four years here, and I forgot where I was going. I forgot about your question.

Jeff Johnson: No. Keep going. This is you’re in the process of I’m leaning to my courageous choice. That’s right. Yeah. You’re in the process of saying what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done, and this is this is so fascinating and so valuable. Dean, thank you for your transparency going through this because people people are gonna gain a lot from what it is from your testimony, from what you’re sharing here. I can’t imagine if I was grown up in a in a situation where I had just very fixed dogma, how I would ever think maybe there’s something wrong with that or maybe there’s something on the other side or how do I ever get out, and I think everybody can relate to that. So please keep going.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Yeah. And I should back up. Our religious our the poor white church of God, I mean, Herbert w Armstrong and then his his predecessor, he died in ’86. They were they were God’s appointed leader, and they interpreted the Bible and let us know how God was supposed to interpret the Bible. So it was a little bit of that.

Jeff Johnson: Right. Right.

Dean O’Connor: And we were the chosen church. We when Jesus Christ returned, we were going to be the ones that led the others, and the others could choose choose to come with us or go to the Lake Of fire.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But, I mean, we were special. We were the chosen. We were the ones. We were different because we were special, and we had to deal with that. It there was a lot of that. It’s okay that I’m different, and people don’t look at me the same way because in the end, it’s all gonna pay off because we are who we’re doing what God wants us to do.

Dean O’Connor: It there was a lot of that. It’s okay that I’m different, and people don’t look at me the same way because in the end, it’s all gonna pay off because we are who we’re doing what God wants us to do. So I forgot there’s that aspect of it that Yeah. Really, like, I remember it. It breaks my heart. My dad’s parents were Lutheran. Oh, actually, my mom was Lutheran. My grand my grandmother was Lutheran. My grandfather was Catholic, and and he married her. And this, Catholic church was getting all over. My dad told me this story. Catholic church was getting all over him for not coming to Catholic church. And his father stood up for him said, Hey, any man should go to church with his wife, and I’m not going to knock him for that. And so, but I feel really bad because they were Lutheran. And a lot of the things that we celebrated, like Christmas, we couldn’t celebrate Christmas, so they couldn’t do the things with their and we were the only grandkids because my dad’s brother died in World War two and his, daughter at nineteen eighteen, and his sister died when she was a baby. And so we were the only grandkids and we, they couldn’t do all the grandkid things with us. And they were still down in the worth and, but they were really respectful. Yeah, they never gave my dad a hard time or my mom, and they just kept to themselves. And so I got a lot of respect for them. For sure. But, so there’s a back to the church there. So I’m in college, I got my buddies were great. We’re graduating college. I made a lot of great friends. Still to this day are my friends. And we’ve all gone different ways. And I came back, and I was part of the Des Moines local church again with my wife. And oddly enough, her dad got transferred into Des Moines because we were moving back there. He was a pastor. My wife’s from Portland, Oregon, and her dad is a pastor in Worldwide Church of God. And they transferred him about every four years just to keep things different. And, he got Des Moines. And so he lived a couple of blocks from Don and I. And so I it was nice because we got to know them really well. And this this makes the courageous part even worse or better, however you want to say it. But they they, they were there until we had our second child. And then he got transferred on. But you know, when I was back working, I had the college degree. And so I would give sermonettes at church. I mean, what we would do is have a fifteen minute sermonette and then special music and then the sermon, our our church, they were two hours. So you sat there for two hours is my entire life growing up. It was great. As a kid. Dean. But then I was I mean, I was speaking in church, and, I mean, I was whipping open the Bible and giving a little thing about a scripture and talking about it and all that kind of stuff because I was trained at a

Jeff Johnson: There’s nowhere along the continuum here where you’re questioning the denomination one little bit. You’re

Dean O’Connor: Not at all.

Jeff Johnson: I’m sure you bumped into other people that are Lutheran or people that are Baptist or people that are whatever the Methodist. And are you just thinking, yeah, you guys are full of a bunch of baloney, or was it just never challenged?

Dean O’Connor: They’re just lost. You know? They don’t understand. They’re lost. They’re blinded. You know? And maybe someday, they’ll come to it or that that one day, they’ll have their choice, you know, just that that kind of stuff. Yeah. The hindsight, very self centered, but, I was gonna tell you something. So it’s gonna start me nuts. Yeah. No. I was completely in. Yeah. It just yeah. I thought it was the right way, and I was doing all the things that I should do. And I was working, and it was just yeah. It was hard.

Jeff Johnson: Your wife’s all about it. Because you met your wife in California.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. In college in Pasadena. Yeah. She’s all about it too. She’s all in it too. And her dad’s a pastor. And my dad was a deacon in the church. And so I mean, my parents are there, my brother and his wife are there. Some of my sisters were there. So I mean, it’s we’re still agents and as adults, we’re all big part of this church. And, you know, it’s, you know, it’s a Des Moines Church kind of the movers and shakers of the congregation. But, what really what here’s what happened is Herbert Armstrong died in 1986 when I was in college. His predecessor, there’s a little shake up, but this guy won, Joe Dacotch senior. And his son, Joe Dacoch junior, after a few years, came with this new thinking of, you know, we’re not special. There’s a lot to go with the regular religion. They basically said we’re not special. We what we do is what we do, but we are we can be part of the greater religious community. They tried to broaden it out into being different. What they didn’t realize is that everybody was there because we were special and it was different and the prophecy and the, I mean, it it it that church pulled a certain type of person to it. My mom’s one of us. And, that’s my brother. Sorry. But it it it started changing. And what started changing was and it was it splintered the church. I’ll just prednisone, give you a prequel here. It splintered into different guys to congregations. I doesn’t know what he’s talking about. We need to get started. Well, I’m I’m the guy and I’m gonna go start it over here and this be they go there and it created a like Philadelphia Church of God and Grace Church of God. There’s 1,000 We call them splinters.

Jeff Johnson: Yep.

Dean O’Connor: Well, I’m back here working my ass off. I’m tired. I got kids. I just I just got it started getting into my mind. Wait a minute, if I’m not special, and I’m not doing all these things, because I’m going to be something special, and I can just go to a local church, because we’re just a church. Like, why am I driving into Des Moines, meeting with a bunch of some of them are kind of odd.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: I’m leaving my community. I’m going to this church in the middle of nowhere in Des Moines. And then I’m just like, why am I doing this? Because I’m also at work starting to get more involved in the business community. And so that that plays a little part into it. You start making friends. You start making connections. You start doing business things. And and I started I joined BOMA. My buddy, Jeff Hatfield, got me join BOMA, Building Owners and Managers Association. And so you start your world starts expanding outside of this little church thing on one side, and then you realize, well, maybe it’s not so special anymore. So that made me start thinking. Alright. What? Why? And I really I I it was almost like a switch in my head. It was one day we had, it was a holy day in the middle of the week, Pentecost or I don’t I don’t know what it was. It was one of those days. And I just came in and told my brother, I said, I’m not going. I’m working today. Go ahead. Go ahead if you want, but I’m all done. It just I just and I went home and told my wife, I’m all done. So that there’s your courageous moment, because then it gets more courageous here in a minute.

Jeff Johnson: Very courageous. Because you’re telling your wife whose father is a is a pastor in this thing. I’m not believing this.

Dean O’Connor: That was bad. Yeah. So so I told her that was gonna she was like, oh, I mean, we worked through it fine. She’s very mature about it. But it was just a switch in my head. It’s like, well, if I’m not special, why am I why don’t I get plugged into my local church in Altoona? Why would I leave my community and all this? My and also when my wife was involved in MOTS mothers and preschoolers, it was a little mother’s program at Adventure Life Church, which is Presbyterian right around the corner from our house. And she was getting to know some of the ladies in our neighborhood and friends and, you know, some of my mom went to high school with. And so you’re starting to get plugged in in the business community, starting to get plugged in in the in the local community. And then I realized, why am I going to this church in over here in Des Moines at Victoria Lodge on Second Avenue in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of people I don’t really care about anymore, obviously. Well, I don’t mean it that way. But, you know,

Jeff Johnson: I get it.

Dean O’Connor: And I just said I said I’m done. I’m out. I’m out. I’m gonna go to my local church. So that’s what I did. I I told Don I’m going to local church, and she joined me. She she went to Worldwide for probably I felt really bad for her because it was a different path. Her her dad was gone. We had a different pastor, but she went and asked to handle all the questions about where’s Dean? Where’s Dean? Where’s Dean? Because I was just gone and you know, it’s before cell phones, so nobody was

Jeff Johnson: And the congregation is small enough that they’re keeping track of everybody who’s coming.

Dean O’Connor: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, with Don and I started going to the the local church shortly after I quit, my brother quit. He was, like, two, three months behind me. He hung up for a little while. And then, then it just started imploding. So but I had this I remember the phone call with Don’s dad. He called me. And, he was in Indiana at that time. And, oh, we were pretty loud. My wife came home and heard it. It was, you know

Jeff Johnson: for your position, and he was laying it down.

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. There’s a little bit of that. And, I mean, I was young, and he’s he’s a little bit demonstrative. Not I wouldn’t call him demonstrative, but just pick pick pick pick pick pick. Yeah. So Yep. We have a great relationship now. You know, we we never had a bad relationship. It’s just he told me where I was headed. You know, you leave this and you’re headed here, you know, down this road and down this road, and this is where you’re going to be. And I’m like, okay, whatever. I got two kids, wife, a business I’m trying to grow. Like, I’m dying here. Right? Know. And so the my wife and I started Dawn and I started going to Presbyterian Church, Adventure Life Church in Altoona. It’s still there. And I went there for about maybe three years. And they got a new pastor. He was young and immature and wasn’t a huge fan of him. But I just again, I you know, once I put it like this, once you it’s like my faith was so my faith was here. It was wrapped up in a pretty basket. You know? I didn’t eat oh, we didn’t eat pork. We didn’t eat an unclean meat. We follow that too. So I didn’t eat bacon, like, real bacon pork chop until I was an adult. And, so imagine that, hanging out with your friends. And sorry, I can’t eat that. Although, it’s I mean, that was pretty we ate really healthy, though. I in hindsight, my mom grew up really healthy. So

Jeff Johnson: Sure.

Dean O’Connor: Back. I didn’t drink sodas, and I didn’t eat shitty food, and my mom grew it all. And so, again, the good side of it.

Jeff Johnson: Right? Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But, we spent three years in there, and then I kinda got I was just kinda happy and half out. I could tell. It’s just I didn’t care about this. It I’d kinda lost any faith in anything.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: Anyhow, I was just kinda going through the motions, and it was more it was turning more of the songs and, you know, the popular stuff they have now, which I’m not knocking. But I grew up differently, and I just I was I just I don’t I couldn’t find any sort of faith to care about anything that was going on. And about the three years, the kids were I said, I’m not I’m all done here too, Don. It’s just a time suck, a money suck. I don’t wanna be there. It’s again some people need that structure and organization to hang on to, like, whatever it is in their life, it’s their community, and it helps them be who they are. I had so many other opportunities with like minded people like business people and high level people, people like yourself in The Breakfast Club that I mean, I had those opportunities, and I’d go to church, and I’d have these, I don’t I don’t know how to say it. But just struggling folks just

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: They weren’t making me any better. I was I felt like I was getting drugged down every time I went. And so I I told her again. I did it to her again. I said, I’m out again. Sorry. And I said, you go. And if you wanna take the kids, that’s fine. And my kids I have two boys. And they were like, I’m not going. I don’t wanna go. I mean, they were like 10. And I’m like, I don’t wanna go. And she was, I’m not gonna drag them if they don’t wanna go. And she she went for another couple years, I think. Maybe longer. I don’t remember. And then she just kind of drifted off. And and Don will say that she’s still spiritual. She she neither one of us go to a church. She still has her faith and it’s hers. But we don’t talk about it. It’s it is what it is. But you know, I I’m one of those where, you know, once you lose your faith, I don’t I don’t see how I could ever get it back. And I kinda went through the progression of and actually, my father-in-law was kinda right. I kinda went from kind of just lost for a while to well, I’m an agnostic. I just don’t know. And then I became an atheist for a while. And then I said, I don’t even want to be an atheist. Because I gotta claim that. If that’s it. Right now I have to explain that. And I don’t wanna explain anything. I don’t wanna I don’t wanna have to explain to anybody what I think. I I do it’s just what it is. And so I finally just tell people I’m nothing. I’m just I’m fine. You know, I have so much satisfaction in the things that we talked about earlier, making, the people around me better, making my business better, making my community better, helping individuals. I always say, you know, if you’re a better human being, you’re going to be a better father, a better friend, a better employee. And so it’s like, let’s help people become better human beings make better decisions. And then they’re going to be better in all aspects of their life, they’re going to be better father, They’re going to be a better husband, a better boyfriend, a better employee. And so I just see that’s that’s that’s my that’s what I care about. Those are the things that I care about now. And I don’t give religion much of a thought unless people ask me about it. And the last thing I will ever do is have an argument about it. Because what I find and what like, when I was an agnostic or an atheist or whatever I would decided to that day I was, People wanted to help me. You know, they wanted to help me find my way.

Jeff Johnson: Yes. Right.

Dean O’Connor: I I wasn’t asking for any help. I just so I’m happy. I’m happy where I’m at. I’m sure I’ll be different in a year or two. I who knows? I I’m open minded. I read a lot. I I I I just

Jeff Johnson: What do you read?

Dean O’Connor: Very, very happy with who I am.

Jeff Johnson: What do you read?

Dean O’Connor: Well, right now, I’m reading, I got a couple I got a golf book. I got actually, what I’m reading is, it’s from my one of my professors. He was my I worked for student housing one year at college, and he was my boss, and he became the assistant dean. And he kind of went through the same progression, but he ended up being a doctor. He got his doctorate and he was a superintendent up for schools in Michigan. He’s one of my dear friends still to this day. He’s a bit older than me, but he wrote a book. I’m in the middle of it now. It’s called, oh, Breaking Shattered Beliefs.

Jeff Johnson: Shattered Beliefs.

Dean O’Connor: Shattered Beliefs.

Jeff Johnson: Shattered Beliefs, written by doctor Gary Richards. And it talks about his process of going through all of it.

Dean O’Connor: I wanna read it. On Amazon. It’s I’m gonna

Jeff Johnson: It’s kinda interesting. Yeah. Shattered Beliefs. Link, will you, Dean? Because I wanna get

Dean O’Connor: I will. I’ll send it to you. We’re also going through a leadership book with some of the training I’m doing with my managers with a guy, Brian Arzani, the results group.

Jeff Johnson: Nice.

Dean O’Connor: And then I I do have some fiction on audiobooks, but I kinda got tired of that. And so I’m kind of right now trying to find my way as to what to read. I’ve I’ve read I was reading I got a couple The Slight Edge. It’s a book that, Coach Parents gives to all his players about you know, it’s like keep doing the basic things, and it gives you when you stop doing those. And I’m kind of buzzing through that. I’ve done some leadership books and things like that. What I’ll do is I’ll go through books and then take snippets and pass them to my employees and say, hey. Read this chapter or things like that. Well, you’ve a bookshelf over there of books I’ve half read because I get through them and I kinda get

Jeff Johnson: Oh, I’ve got the same thing. Well, you sound not that you need me to judge or anything like that, Dean, but you sound complete. You sound happy. You see you sound content. And this is this is so interesting to me because, of course, my faith is everything to me, and I wish I could say something to you about Jesus to make you feel a certain way. But it’s just that’s way above my my pay grade. And I don’t wanna piss you off either by going back venturing back into that.

Dean O’Connor: Not piss me off.

Jeff Johnson: But but but, you know, they, who’s the guy? Oh, I can’t think of guy’s name. He always gives the example when people have a bad experience with religion. They say, if somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame? You know, do you blame Beethoven, or do you blame the guy that’s playing it poorly? And there’s there’s so many denominations out there, and we’re all human, and we fall so far short. So, I mean, I get it. But I don’t wanna pretend to be in your shoes because your story is is so powerful because you were in that in the middle of that for your whole life, and you are all about it.

Dean O’Connor: That’s right. And so faithful to it too.

Jeff Johnson: And then you just came to a point where it doesn’t sound to me like you threw away the doctrine necessarily. It was just it was almost like the rug got pulled out from Andrea or something. Is that am I characterizing that correctly?

Dean O’Connor: I would I would say that. Yeah. It it kinda pulled my whole way of viewing my life and my future life and my my eternal life. How I viewed it got shifted and or expanded. I but maybe just expanded. I don’t know. You can say it however you want.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But through that process, in my mind, it changed something. And, you know, everybody was different. A lot of I know a lot of family friends that are still be still in one of the splinter groups or in the main group. And then a lot of my friends, my really close church I had three other than that that, doctor Richards I talked about, I had three very close friends in college. We we were called the something for I can’t even remember now. But, Doug Orban, he’s in Colorado, and he’s very religious in a local denomination church. My other really close buddy is actually a pastor in Pennsylvania at a local church, not in the those. And then my other buddy in Pennsylvania, he’s a kind of quasi pastor. He’s a physical therapist, but he preaches a lot, which is that’s his thing. He did that college. He loves to preach. Even when he was talking to you, he was preaching to you.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: But, but, they’re all very religious still. Very faithful. Very, and one of them tried to he was at my house one time and tried to well, you just haven’t had the right church, and you had to play that whole game with me. And I’m like, okay. That like, you’re right. I haven’t been to your church in Colorado. You’re right. I’d probably find my way if I went there and sure, whatever. It’s okay. I you’re just trying to help me. I get it. I understand that.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: You want my life to be better and you I get I get it. Yeah. And then my my older friend, the doctor Gary Richards, he and I are a little more alike. And he’s he’s he I think he still has some sort of spirituality that is personal. But we haven’t talked deeply about it in a while. I need to call him. But, I’m I’m just, I don’t know, when I lost it, it was it was weird. I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it, then it just went away. Like, my deep faith and connection to God and and and the bible and it just it was like a a switch just just flipped off.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: It’s weird. And, honestly, I’ve never had it even kinda glimmery come back on at all.

Jeff Johnson: Well, a couple other things that I wanna say

Dean O’Connor: I’m still a decent person, though.

Jeff Johnson: No. You’re a heathen, Dean. Of course, you’re a decent. Of course, you’re if you read the bible. I am. Of course, you’re a decent person. Oh my gosh. You’re absolutely fantastic. Now I don’t wanna be friends with you. I wanna be best friends with you, Dean. This is fantastic because I’ve got so much respect for you for being able to that is so courageous to be able to rationalize if you wanna put it that way or just it felt like more what you’re describing is more of a heart thing too where you just can’t do it anymore. And to be able to break free and to be able to do that, I’ve got tons of respect. I’m lying to you if I don’t say, I see God’s fingerprints all over you, and I would love to see you come back into the the rightful, listen to the Beethoven played the correct way. But I’m not gonna belittle you the the story that you’ve just told with that kind of stuff. That’s between you and God. That’s got nothing to do with me. But, yes, you’re a fantastic person. Of course.

Dean O’Connor: It’s not like I’m a mass murderer or anything.

Jeff Johnson: I said Oh. And I you know what? I I was feel like, though, when you come out of something like that? You feel like everything I’ve heard for twenty plus years of my life has been this and this and this. And then when I decide to go the other way, well, there’s a little bit of me that thinks maybe I am the devil from hell. I mean

Dean O’Connor: Well, you know what? It was more like I just had to be true to myself. I was I felt like I was two different people for a while. Like, when I would go to church, the the original Worldwide Church of God, I just felt like I had to act because I I just didn’t feel it anymore. I there was

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: You know, that that I’m all in. I know I’m doing the right thing here. I know I’m part of something bigger. I that I had to fake it. And I just not good at faking it. I am terrible at faking it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: I’m much more. Better. I’m much better at saying anything that comes into my head and being blunt. That’s just my thing.

Jeff Johnson: When I say praise God. That’s a bad thing. Right?

Dean O’Connor: I don’t know. But I would call it you know, I just had to be true to myself in both incidences, incidences when I left the original and then doctor my father-in-law, and then left the second one was way easier. I that one didn’t bother me a bit. Except that it hurt my my wife was stuck again. And so that that part is always the painful part. But I just I just had to be who I am, and I just feel I felt like I wasn’t who I was. I felt like I was faking it, and I just felt fake. I just when I was there, I felt fake, and I didn’t I don’t like being fake. And, I just needed to be true to myself. And so, you know, now granted, I grew up with strong morals, strong discipline. We believed in corporal punishment. So, yeah, I got my ass spanked quite a bit. But I I deserved it. Whatever. It’s got got my attention. Very rule. I’m very rule conscious. I mean, I just just I I the world bonds better. That’s why we have rules. So

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But my my character, my personality, who I am is all formed by all my experiences and my family life. And so sure, there’s always negative things, but everybody has those. Even though even though I’m not a part of those anymore, I feel like what I went through and what I did formed who I am, and it made me who I am. And so we can’t ever take that away from it. That that’s a very positive from all my experiences.

Jeff Johnson: I’m a I’m a recovering person as you well know. Been sober for quite a while, and one of the things that we say in our little 12 step program is that we don’t regret the things of the past nor do we wish to repeat them. We’ve comprehended the word serenity, and we’ve come to no peace. So I don’t regret any of the stuff that I’ve been through, and I just heard you say that right now too, which is a such a powerful thing, Dean, after you’ve shared your testimony with us because you’re right. That’s it could have done something else to you. It could have destroyed you, but it didn’t. Instead, it drew resilience and fortitude, and now that’s unleashed on the world. That’s why I say I see God’s fingerprints all over you. So that’s, that’s wonderful. The way that the way that you’re able to take the swallow the meat and spit out the bones, as they say, from that experience, it’s very impressive, Dean. It’s very impressive. So how I wanna know. We’re going long here, but I’m gonna keep you just a little bit more because I got some questions.

Dean O’Connor: I’m free. I’m free off. I’m free. Take your time.

Jeff Johnson: What do you say to somebody who’s going through a similar experience? And I don’t even know how to characterize a similar experience because how would they know?

Dean O’Connor: Tough one. Yeah. Ask the right I I haven’t really had anybody ask me that. I’ve never had anybody approach me about that. And this all happened. I think I left the church the Worldwide Church of God in ’95. Somewhere in there. And then I was in the other church till about ’98. So I’ve been without going to a church since, let’s call it, ’98. How many years that is. And I don’t know. I mean, there for a while, I mean, I read religious stuff, religious books, and, you know, the news Like, when I left the church, I started reading, you know, broader expanding more mainstream religious stuff. And it just never really grabbed me again. And I I think it’s just because I was I just view it for myself as I was so dedicated to what I thought was right and true. And there had to be the the truth, the the true truth. I mean, the truth.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: That we have the truth. Capital t, the truth.

Jeff Johnson: Yep.

Dean O’Connor: And when I found out there wasn’t we didn’t have the truth. There’s other truths. I think it just whatever it did to my brain and just left me left me faithless. I mean, in that type of thing. I mean, I have a lot of faith in other things, but just that whole religious experience just kinda went away for me. And I I I can’t explain it. I really can’t. There’s

Jeff Johnson: Why do you, okay. I wanna know about your siblings then. Are they out? Are they in? Did they follow your lead?

Dean O’Connor: Every single one of my siblings, except one, does not go to any any church whatsoever. I have okay. I take that back. I have four sisters and one brother, and a half sister that I just found out about Christmas this year. She’s 50.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: She’s very religious, but she grew up with her mom down Kansas City. My parents are still very religious, and they go to they left eventually too, by the way. I forgot to say that. They eventually came to Adventure Life Church in Altoona, a local church. And they’re they’re very religious, but they’re into a local community church.

Jeff Johnson: Did they leave because of your exodus? Because when you left, were you the catalyst?

Dean O’Connor: After I left, and then my brother left, and then, then that thing started falling apart, and I think they just it I think they came to the final conclusion. It’s like, well, if I can go anywhere, why am I going to this place with these people when I could be in my community? Which was great. I, to me, that was the best thing ever. And if you’re I think it’s better to have that in your community, you get to know the people and help them and see it happen.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And so they’re very dedicated. They go to church, and my one sister who is the rebellious one, she’s a she goes to church, and she’s very religious. And I think she leads some vital study groups. Her and her husband, they live up in Bonnarat. I forget what church they go to.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But focal one. But I have three younger sisters. She’s the oldest of those. The other two young ones. Nope. And then I have an older sister in West Virginia. She’s a lot like me, my brother, just we kinda had two families, the older three and the younger three.

Jeff Johnson: But do you talk to your parents about what was all that about growing up and all of that kind of

Dean O’Connor: That was bad. When we when I left, it was bad. I had some bad conversations with my mom. I regret some of them because I was a little probably a little over the top and mean.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: But my mom, there’s a reason she was in the Worldwide Church of God. She she just gets so wrapped up in that stuff and can’t see outside of herself.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And I’m not knocking her. She’s fabulous mom and

Jeff Johnson: Sure.

Dean O’Connor: But she still grinds about it. She’s like, she just talked to me the other day. I was like, I was thinking about sending an email out to all the kids just apologizing, you know, for bringing up as a worldwide church of God. I’m like, just stop. Stop. That I feel bad because she’s never let any of this go. She just grinds through it all and grinds through it all. We’re all fine. We’re all great. We I loved I I’ve told her I was you were a great mom. I was a great childhood. Sure. I had that whole religion thing, but I great I gained a lot from it, like we talked about for the last hour. I am who I am because of all of it. It’s we’re fine. It’s okay. Love you.

Jeff Johnson: That’s so good. You’re able to say that to your mother so she can but, you know, there’s she needs to be able to forgive herself. And that’s an inside job. And nobody can do that for you until you

Dean O’Connor: You said it best. If she could ever learn to just forgive herself and let some things go, just let the past be the past, move forward. But, I mean, she’s 85 now. Like

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Nothing I can do about it. Do you label let me go back. Hopefully, this isn’t too clunky of a one eighty here. But

Dean O’Connor: No. It’s fine.

Jeff Johnson: Do you consider yourself a courageous person with what you did?

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. Yes. I I mean, I look at for me personally, it was very courageous. Yeah. I felt bad because I was hurting others around me. I was hurting my father-in-law. I was hurting my wife. I was hurting my family and my mom. And so it didn’t feel courageous. It kinda felt dirty, courageous, I guess. Personally, I felt courageous. But it felt like I was hurting so many other people in my life. It didn’t feel good. Even though I felt better about being true to myself. I I’m a better person because I did it. Because now I am who I am. And and I I like who I am. I think I mean, I can always improve, but I like the direction I’m headed in what I do. And I don’t think I could have gotten there if I’d stayed. But I’ve you know, a lot of the courageous decisions I’ve made have been being mayor, being a business owner, as you know.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: You know, you don’t know if you’re doing the right thing or not, and it’s gonna affect so many people’s lives

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: That you do it because you think it’s the right thing to do. And I do that all I’ve done it so much probably like you too. It doesn’t seem courageous anymore. You just you’re just there. You’re do it. And you’re you’re you’re the leader, and I’ll take the hits.

Jeff Johnson: Right.

Dean O’Connor: And, you know, you win more than you lose. And you have you feel good about yourself and keep moving forward. And so it’s hard to say courageous, but, I mean, I suppose that’s fine. You could definitely call it that.

Jeff Johnson: It’s hard to ask people that are that are humble and that have that characteristic if they think that they’re courageous because, yeah, it’s hard to but you’re very courageous, Dean. I wish I lived in Altoona so I could have you as a mayor because I think you’re you’re perfectly, equipped to to do that.

Dean O’Connor: Oh, thank you.

Jeff Johnson: I wonder how much of the decision you made with the worldwide church to leave it informed your now you were already in business, you and your brother, but how much of that decision informed your success since you made that decision? Because did that elevate you? Did that give you confidence to go, I’m just gonna do the next right thing then?

Dean O’Connor: Absolutely. Well, you know, I I just was all in on my kids’ sports. They were very active in high school sports, which I loved because I couldn’t do them. I mean, I I my my older son was a state cross country and track kid, you know, and ran on Saturdays all the time at Drake Relays and state state championship 3,200 and mile. And I just loved every time I went, I was like, wow. Like, some part of me was, like, died watching it because I could have done all of that stuff. And the other part of me is just watching my kids do that stuff. And my younger son was a big soccer player, and and he ran cross country too. But I was just I loved watching my kids do sports, and I I coached soccer for my son. I got super involved. You know what? I think what happened by leaving is I just got so involved in my life. I was so so involved in that thing. It’s almost like I it freed me up to to possibilities in my life and get involved. It’d be very hard to run for city council and and be a mayor and coach soccer on Saturday mornings. I mean, I couldn’t have been involved in that if I but my kids got to experience the things I did. And, and they got Christmas. And although now Christmas is such a pain in the ass and a big, oh, I I wish I could not have it anymore. But it was a lot of fun having my kids have Christmas and all of that, you know. And my brother kinda commented one time. He goes, yeah. Our parents talk about their Christmas mornings, and our kids talk about their Christmas mornings, but we never had any. It’s okay.

Jeff Johnson: I’ll bet you I’ll bet I’ll bet your kids don’t don’t wanna bellyache too much about Christmas around you. That wouldn’t go very far.

Dean O’Connor: No. I know. Sadly sadly, both my boys are like me. I mean, sadly, from a religious perspective, anybody, religiously speaking. They’re they’re they’re a lot like me when it comes to, like, religion. But, they’re both incredibly great human beings, like, better than me. So

Jeff Johnson: Do you I okay. I wanna poke at you a little bit with this, and this is not trying to turn you into a Christian. This is just asking you a question about the religion. You speak of you speak of transitioning through agnosticism and atheism and now to I’m just nothing. I hear a I hear a little bit of, again, forgive me. I hear a little bit of longing in there. Do you wish that you had that fire in your belly for something that you could come back in? Or are you just good good good?

Dean O’Connor: No. Because I have I have fire in my belly for my business, and I have it for being there. And

Jeff Johnson: Yep.

Dean O’Connor: Those are so satisfying. I mean, I’ve been a part of I mean, I’ve been on Metroways Authority. They run the landfill board for fourteen some years. And I’ve I’ve been chair two and a half times now filled in. I’ve gone through some scandals where we fired somebody who stole a million dollars, and I’m just you know, the news and Rob Sands and all that stuff.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And I was on Metro MPO. I got on that just to fix that board because the we needed to fire the executive director. So Joe Gatto and my few of us got together and, like, let’s get on the board and clean this thing up. And we did, and it runs now the meetings are wonderful. You know, nobody’s screaming and yelling each other. And now I’m on the dartboard, which is a financial disaster. You know, the fast pertain, the buses, and I it’s we’ll work through it. We’ll figure it out. But I have so many. I need things like that. I will tell you, you’re right there. I need things like that to make myself feel like I’m a different making a difference.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And and so business is a little bit, but now it’s functioning so well. I don’t get so much out of the guys. There’s just rock star in it. And, but I I do have a desire and a need for that’s probably what you hear because I do have it in my life. I have a need to get involved and do something. Because when I’m not, I can’t just go ahead and play a lot of golf, but I can’t just go play golf. It doesn’t satisfy me at all. I mean, it does. But

Jeff Johnson: Service and bringing the best out of people and providing for a community and taking advantage of opportunities that are in front and leading. And, yeah, I hear that, Dean. That’s I hear that.

Dean O’Connor: And and and you, you probably see this a lot if you serve on boards, especially these elected boards. You get what you get. You get a council member that’s elected from whatever city, and they may have some sort of skill set or absolutely zero skill sets. And I see this in a lot of the mayors. And I don’t wanna knock the mayors. I like them, but I don’t go to the monthly my log meetings because it’s really just to pat myself on the back that I’m the mayor and how important I am as I’m the mayor. And look what I I’ve done and I’m doing, and I’m like, whatever.

Jeff Johnson: Right?

Dean O’Connor: Like, to get over yourself. Staff does all the work. I’m just this the guy in the meetings talking. But, I think you’re right in that, but I’ve I’m satisfying that. I I that that itch gets scratched all the time by all my other things. And so that that that but that was fair fair question.

Jeff Johnson: Would your wife say you’re courageous?

Dean O’Connor: Yeah. I would will. That that’s a tough one. Yes. She would. I’m gonna go with yes. She does. She knows me really well. We’re very open. We’ve been married thirty seven years. Adds are ups and downs like anybody has.

Jeff Johnson: Right? Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: And, she’s a great mom. She’s she’s a wonderful person, and, she works hard. And, yeah, she would definitely say I’m courageous.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Okay. Last question. How would you encourage people to be brave, to be courageous in the face of a really difficult decision?

Dean O’Connor: Well, first, though, I would first off, I would always tell people to inform yourself about what’s going on. Because whenever you got a big decision in front of you, like, if I’m on a board or it’s a business decision or if I’m let’s say I’m gonna leave the church or whatever the decision is that you you you got that sick feeling in your stomach.

Jeff Johnson: Right? Uh-huh.

Dean O’Connor: Which happens even to this day. I would say the first thing you gotta do is make sure you’re really informed about all aspects truly believe I, well, I try really hard to be as open minded and self aware. And self awareness is important in that I got to see the other person’s point of view, where they’re coming from. And I think my upbringing, that’s helped me the most because that other council member, that other board member, like, oh, where are you coming from on this one? Why why are you saying what you’re saying? And why am I gonna come over the top and hammer you down and say that it’s wrong, and we’re gonna do this? And so I would say number one is inform yourself.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah.

Dean O’Connor: Inform yourself of what the consequences of all of our art. How could this go wrong, and who will it affect? And then once you’ve made your decision, you’ve informed yourself and you said, alright. I just go boom. Push the button. Let’s go. Until something says I’m doing the wrong thing, it’s just go. I just that bothered me a bit. Move forward. Once I’ve made my mind up, it’s

Jeff Johnson: Dean O’Connor, you’re amazing. You’re,

Dean O’Connor: That’s kind of you.

Jeff Johnson: You’re a friend of mine from my breakfast club. You’re a mayor of a large city. You’re a successful entrepreneur business leader of a family owned business. It’s harder to be an entrepreneur in a family owned business

Dean O’Connor: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: And somebody that’s been tested in the fire and has come out the other side, polished and putting a lot more good back into the world. Man of great courage. I’m blessed to know you, Dean. Thanks for spending time with us.

Dean O’Connor: Well, I appreciate you asking me. I I’ve been looking forward to it because I, you know, I just love your perspective and and how you handle yourself and how you handled this podcast was perfect. I knew you would do a good job. And so, you know, I’ve been looking forward to it because it it also it allows me and and yourself to get to know each other better. I like I feel like we’re closer friends now.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you, Dean.

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