Holding the Line: Dr. Douglas Groothuis Talks Courage, Culture, and Conviction

In this episode of Courageous Crossroads, host Jeff Johnson sits down with Dr. Douglas Groothuis, Distinguished University Research Professor of Apologetics and Christian Worldview at Cornerstone University, author of over 20 books, including Christian Apologetics and Masking the New Age, and host of The Truth Tribe Podcast. With nearly 50 years of defending the Christian faith through reason and evidence, Dr. Groothuis shares what he considers the most courageous act of his life: a long-standing commitment to Christian witness in the face of cultural resistance and academic hostility. He defines biblical courage as relational, rooted in faith, humility, and obedience to God’s will, not mere boldness or bravado. Drawing on personal trials, professional experiences, and scriptural truths, he offers listeners profound insights into how courage manifests in real-life discipleship, intellectual engagement, and public ministry. For more on Dr. Groothuis’s writings, speaking engagements, and resources, visit
douglasgroothuis.com.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey, everybody. This is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. The author, Charlie Tremendous Jones, said that five years from now, you’ll be the same person you are today, doing the same thing that you’re doing, except for two things, the books you read and the people you introduce yourself to. And my next guest, doctor Douglas Groothuis, fits into that second category. I’m a fan of his, and I’ve listened to his Truth Tribe podcast for a long time now. Doctor Groothuis is a world famous apologist, a real intellect, and author of several books. And he does just an amazing job of defending the faith and really teaching apologetics on his Truth Tribe podcast. And I was listening to it the other day, and I thought, well, I would really love to have him on the Courageous Cross Roads as a guest. So I reached out to him, and to my absolute joy, he responded and said, Jeff, I’d love to. So we made a date, and, I got the opportunity to interview him and ask him a lot of questions on the topic of courage. And so you’re gonna be as blessed with this episode as I was. So without further ado, here is doctor Groothuis.

Jeff Johnson: This is Oh, yeah. The bible. That story about your grandmother’s bible was really touching. I really appreciate you sharing that. This was the one that I got handed, and you can barely even read it. Wow. But just in the front cover, you know, it was oops. There. It was dedicated to my grandfather, Russell Johnson. Oh, yeah. From his Sunday school class to Christmas nineteen twenty two, and his and his father, my great grandfather David, died 01/21/1923. So this was put in his hand, like, a month before his dad passed away. And I just wonder he was born in nineteen o four, so he was a young man, 18 years old. And I just think what this must have done to guide and direct him, you know, while he was taking over a family business and doing all that stuff. So, anyway…

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. The if you can hold on a minute, let me show you my grandmother’s Bible.

Jeff Johnson: I’d love to see it.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. I’ve got it right out here. Yeah. Can you see that?

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. These are very popular back in the seventies, sixties and seventies. Raise it up just a tiny little. Yep. That’s familiar?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: And that was hers, and she was touched by Frances Schaeffer too. Well, she at least went to the film series. Her church put on the film series, and she got well, I mentioned it in the story. She got interested in the Bible through the minor prophets, of all things. Yeah. There was a study in her trailer court that she went to, and she was a very inquisitive person. She loved to read, and, she had some religious background as a child. But, I think maybe she and her husband went to church for a while with my dad and my aunt, but it wasn’t really a big part of her life until very late in her life. I think maybe later sixties mid to later sixties.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. Wow. Well, I again, I really appreciate that, and I appreciate all of your podcast episodes on the truth tribe. That’s it’s just fantastic. I’ve had a number of opportunities to put it on and just kinda loop through a whole bunch of them. And, anyway, it’s just very much appreciated. So for the benefit of our listeners, I’ll tell you, doctor Groothuis, this is what I know about you. This is who we’re speaking with today. Doctor Douglas Groothuis is distinguished university research professor of apologetics and Christian worldview at Cornerstone University. He holds a PhD in philosophy from the University of Oregon and is the author of 20 books, including the acclaimed Christian Apologetics Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith and the best selling Unmasking the New Age. A host of the Truth Tribe podcast, doctor Groothuis, has been defending the Christian faith through reason and evidence for nearly fifty years. He’s appeared on hundreds of radio programs and is known for his passionate yet gentle approach to communicating Christian truth. So thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Happy to be here. Thank you.

Jeff Johnson: Now the the crux of the Courageous Crossroads podcast is settling on the one question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? I don’t know if we’re necessarily gonna hover around that particular question today, but, I mean, we’ll just see where the conversation takes us. But, for the benefit of our listeners and, of course, selfishly for myself having a resource like you on the podcast, I wanna dive into this topic of courage and touch on the biblical meanings of courage and that sort of thing. So I’ve got a I got a list of questions. I shared some of these with you, but I thought maybe we’ll go through them and just see see how the Holy Spirit leads us. Is that fine?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Sounds good.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. So in your truth tribe podcast, you identified courage as one of the five crucial skills for Christian apologists. How do you define biblical courage, and how does it differ from secular or philosophical conceptions of courage?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I think, the key difference is that biblical view of courage is related to, faith in the living God. So we’re told in scripture so many times to not trust in ourselves, in fact, to be as weak as possible in ourselves and to trust in God for what we say, how we live, the strength to go through difficulties, the strength to go through good times with humility. So, biblically, courage is always linked to faith in the one true God who is revealed to us in the Bible. So you can develop courage through psychological techniques, overcoming fear, and so on, and those can be helpful as far as they go in terms of living in a perilous, difficult world, but, biblically, courage is always, based on the inspiration and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, and it’s always courage to do the right thing. So you might have, the wherewithal to do something very risky or very odd that’s not typical. Philosophers debate whether, let’s say, a Nazi soldier could have had courage fighting for Nazism. And, typically, we link courage with doing what is good. So simply not having fear and venturing forth into a difficult situation, I don’t think, is probably enough to really define courage even generally. But, biblically, it’s always courage for the sake of the glory of God and for the love of our neighbor, and it’s very much rooted in faith. My first wife was named Rebecca Merrill Groothuis. She went to be with the Lord in 02/2018, and she was, a very godly woman, but she struggled with a lot of anxiety and fear in her life, and over many years she put together a list of Bible verses. They’re online. They’re very easy to find. They’re simply called Bible verses for faith in times of distress. She’s got I’ve got actually an earlier version of this. She worked on this for years and years. This has got about nine pages on it, but it’s just one verse after another. And courage, biblically, is always relational. It’s wanting to depend on God to have the wisdom and the strength to do what’s right in the face of difficulty or opposition. So it’s based on faith, it’s based on the character of God, and therefore, it’s relational. You could, I guess, build up a resolve to do difficult things through psychological techniques. There are a lot of how to books out there on that kind of thing that might help you ask for a job promotion or ask somebody out on a date or something. But but biblical courage is a lot more rich than that. It’s, what I just tried to articulate.

Jeff Johnson: Is bib is it associated directly with obedience then?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: It it is. Yeah. Because you shouldn’t ask God for courage to do something that’s against his will. So you could really only have confidence to act courageously in a difficult situation if you had reasonable assurance that you were asking for something that would be in God’s will. You know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So, we wanna do God’s will, and that will, in a fallen world, that will mean sometimes taking risks. And doing the right thing for the right reason in the face of various, adversities, types of threats, and so on.

Jeff Johnson: So would you say that I don’t know the right language for this. Doctor Groothuis. Forgive me, but would you say that secular courage is a misnomer? I mean, it’s not even a thing.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, I think it’s real, but it’s just not the same as biblical church because of the theological dimension. So we can find, virtues in non Christian people. They’re not worthy of salvation. They don’t merit salvation by any means, but, all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God. Can we receive common grace from God whether or not we’re Christians. So let me let me give an example. Winston Churchill. I know Winston Churchill was a believer in God, and he believed God was using him in world history. I’m not sure he was a Christian in his own well, in the biblical sense, you know, born again. He may or may not have, it, but, probably not. But you won’t find too many people that are more courageous than Winston Churchill in terms of identifying evil and mobilizing a nation to faithfully fight against evil for what he called the cause of Christian civilization. So there’s a very courageous man. We can learn a lot from him about his fortitude, his attitudes, and, a lot about world history from him. But if you wanna look for a biblical understanding of courage, you’re far better off looking at someone like, the apostle Paul, through the book of Acts and in the epistles because he had to face just overwhelming, tremendous adversity, and not just the threat of evil, but persecution, betrayal, stoning, shipwreck. You know, several times he lists all the things that he’s been through, but it’s all been worth it because he did it for the sake of the gospel.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. I anxiety, worry, those sorts of things are counted as sins in the scripture. Correct?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Is so I’m curious. Is the opposite of courage, would that be considered a sin? I mean, is it almost a sin not to have courage? I guess I’m trying to not be all over the place, but if you go to Hebrews 11, you know, without faith, it’s impossible to please god. Faith undoubtedly takes courage. So is is the lack of courage actually a sin?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: A good question. And the opposite of of, if we don’t have faith, then we’re really trusting in ourselves, which would be self reliance and sin, and that’s really the essence of all sin is pride or trying to rely on yourself. Right? I don’t think everything we do in life requires courage. Many things do. It takes a certain amount of of courage, I suppose, just to to get up in the morning and, face the challenges and the difficulties you’ll have during the day. But I think, there are special situations that require courage. If I decide later on to go for a walk around the neighborhood, my neighborhood’s safe enough that I don’t think it requires too much courage to do that. But I guess I could say that biblically understood courage is based on faith in the God of the Bible, and, we are told many times not to be afraid and not to shrink back, not to be cowardly. Being cowardly is a vice. So you you sometimes hear people kinda joking about how they’re a coward about something, and I think, well, you really shouldn’t joke about that because, being a coward means you’re not rising to the occasion properly as you should in whatever situation it might be. Now you might say, I just know that I can’t do certain things very well, and so I wouldn’t be good in that situation. For example, you know, it takes great courage and fortitude to be a soldier, particularly a soldier in battle. And I’m pretty sure I don’t have that kind of courage. But if you put me in front of a thousand people and half of them are atheists who are going to ask me questions after the the lecture. I’m I’m really not very afraid of that because, and please, folks out there, if you can get me those gigs, I want more gigs like that. I really do. I mean, I will be on high alert. You know, I will be engaged, and it will be an exciting situation. It’ll be a little bit anxiety, maybe, just being in that situation, but that’s what I’ve spent my entire adult life doing, which is trying to understand and explain the Christian faith. But in other situations, I don’t have a lot of courage at all. But, you know, generally speaking, we should trust God in all situations.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. And there are individual callings. I’ve read. I don’t have the details of it, but the fear of public speaking is one of the most, one of the highest on the list of things that people fear. You may have seen those kinds of reports.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Mhmm. And I fear a whole lot more going to a doctor’s appointment than I would fear speaking to a thousand people on Christian apologetics. And that’s not that’s not a virtue. That’s something I really struggle with. I don’t struggle with the public speaking here. In fact, I thrive on it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m I’m grateful that you thrive on it because I’ve got you on that Truth Tribe podcast to be able to listen to. So and, gosh, I’d love to have you come to Iowa sometime too, doctor Groothuis. So that would be fantastic.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I mean, invitation. We’ll see what we can do. I certainly will.

Jeff Johnson: Let’s move on to another question I got here. I got a whole list. I don’t know how many we’re gonna get through, but here’s another one for you. In your apologetics manifesto, which I think you published in an article several years ago, Right. Emphasize both humility and courage as essential virtues. How do we distinguish between godly courage and mere human boldness or bravado, and what are biblical markers that help us identify authentic Christian courage?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I think the humility is an essential feature of biblical courage, a necessary feature. So there are people who are very self confident, very cocky, have a lot of bravado, and will just go out and conquer as many realms as they can. They’re not timid. They’re not bashful. But they’re not humble either. So, biblically, we should give all the glory and credit to God, try to depend on God for whatever exploits he’s called us to achieve or try to achieve. So we should have a a big vision for ministry. We should do all the good that we can for as long as we can to as many people as we can. It’s sort of a paraphrase of a purported John Wesley quote. I’m not sure if he said it, but, but do so not by, well, I’m strong, I’m smart, I’m clever, therefore I’ll do this. It’s more, what gifts has God given me? And if He’s made you clever or strong or particularly resourceful in something, then that gift should be used to the uttermost. But, you don’t deny that you have the gift, but you deny, taking any credit for it because every good and perfect gift comes from above, from the Father of Lights in whom there is no shadow of turning. That’s what James one says. So that humility, thanksgiving is crucial to a biblical view of courage and, the idea of bravado and self promotion is utterly unbiblical and it’s very difficult to avoid this in our culture, especially online culture, where everybody wants to be an influencer. And they want to develop a brand and market a brand and get likes and get followers, there’s so much self promotion. And I think back to Viktor Frankl’s classic book Man’s Search for Meaning. He was a Jewish psychiatrist who was put into a concentration camp, and he wrote out an account of his experience and his reflections on his experience, which is really one of the great books of the twentieth century, I think. And in the preface of the book, he said, At first, I didn’t want my name to be on the book. I wanted to use a pseudonym because of my fear of exhibitionism. And I thought, what a different world he lived in. It’s almost like exhibitionism is now a necessary condition for being successful, especially successful online. And, scripture says, don’t let your own, your own voice praise you, but another’s. Right. So we really and it’s difficult because you wanna let people know how you can serve them and what your gifts are. And there’s nothing wrong with saying, I’m a teacher. I love to teach. I’m a writer. I love to write. I think I’m pretty good at it. God gave me these gifts. But somehow draw the line and not go into self promotion and braggadocio and bravado and and all the rest of it. I think it’s a big challenge, especially for Christians who are in the public eye to some extent to to be humble and courageous and to avoid that very noxious but very common self promotion that we find everywhere.

Jeff Johnson: Well, if I can poke on you a little bit more about that very subject, I remember hearing, John Lennox give a beautiful talk on first Peter three fifteen and sixteen, you know, the kind of the the hallmark for the apologetics work, you know, given the argument. And at the end of it, it talks about doing that with gentleness and respect. And then I think he even referenced Dallas Willard’s book on gentleness, you know, and he’s made the comment just because we can bludgeon people with our arguments doesn’t mean that we should. You’re not gonna win, you know, anybody for the kingdom in just doing that. I’m I’m I’m blessed enough not to be that clever, doctor Groothuis, so I don’t have to worry about so I don’t have to worry about that. I can’t think of my feet. For you to be humble, I can’t I can’t think of my feet like that. But I do think that’s gotta be difficult for you when you are standing up in front of an audience of a thousand people, and God’s given you such a gift of being able to handle, you know, memory or or empathy or, you know, just the Christian heart, you know, to understand the scriptures the way that you do. How do you not pound your chest a little bit or pound somebody else’s argument into the dust just because you can?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, I reflect on that verse a lot about give a defense, but do this with gentleness and respect. And my first influence in Apologetics was Francis Schaeffer, his book The God Who Is There, which I read as a young Christian in 1976. I probably read it 10 or 11 times. I probably listened to it five or six times or more. And I remember very, very sharply, very clearly, that he said apologetics is not a game. We’re talking to people trying to win them to Christ, trying to show that their worldview doesn’t make sense in order to bring them to Christ. And we’re not there to humiliate anyone or to prove that we are smarter than the other person. And also when you’re engaged in apologetics, it can be very challenging. People can ask you difficult questions. You might not have the best answer for it, but prayer is essential to courage in every dimension. So if you need courage to go into a dangerous surgery, you pray, you have other people praying for you. If you need, courage to to speak to a group of people or preach a sermon, then you need prayer. My I have a typical prayer that I pray before I go on programs or teach or preaches, I ask God to help me to speak the truth and love with wisdom so that people can gain the knowledge that they need and expands the kingdom of God and hurts the kingdom of Satan. I I pray something like that pretty much every time I go on a program or teach or preach or, do a debate. Now debates take a lot of courage, and I have not done a whole lot of debates in my ministry. I’ve done some, and some of them are online. That takes a tremendous amount of courage and competence and a lot of preparation as well. I think our best Christian debater is, doctor William Lane Craig, and he has specialized in that for about the last thirty five years. He’s Sharp as anything extremely knowledgeable, but I’ve never seen him get cocky or beat up on people at all.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe along those lines, you know, talking about the debates, it it kinda dovetails into the next question I wanted to ask you about academia. And I remember hearing, again, John Lennox talk about, when he was cherry picked as such a brilliant mathematician, and there was a I believe it was a Nobel laureate that said to him, why don’t you get rid of all of this Christian baloney and and, you know, your career will take off and that sort of thing. And, I’m not gonna pretend to repeat what John Lennox told him, but, essentially, he stood his ground, which was tremendously courageous. But I’d ask you this question. As someone who spent decades in academic philosophy, you’ve undoubtedly faced hostility toward Christian truth claims. How has courage manifested in your own academic career, and what advice would you give to Christian students and scholars who face similar challenges?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, I go back to Jesus where he said to be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove. So especially in the academic context, if you’re in a secular school, you have to pick your battles wisely. But, of course, you should never deny your faith, and you should look for every opportunity to testify to the truth of the gospel and to speak of God’s work in your own life. But you really need to be shrewd. You don’t wanna shrink back when there’s an opportunity to be a witness for Christ. At the same time, you know, you’re not in church, and you’re in an academic environment that has high standards, and, of course, you wanna meet those standards the best you can. So it’s really a matter of timing. And, let me give you an example from my own career. I just recorded a podcast on this. I did a dissertation on Blaise Pascal’s philosophy of religion and really how he defended Christianity, and that was, originally a proposal or a prospectus, and it was approved. And I had done really well in the program. This is the early nineties in Eugene, Oregon, University of Oregon. And they did not like what I had to say, and I did a rewrite, and they still didn’t like it, and they said, we are not going to accept this sort of dissertation. So I had to start over again, and it took me another year. And I found another topic that worked well, and I was even able to publish most of what was rejected in my first dissertation. Mhmm. Became articles or became my book on Pascal, which has been updated to Beyond the Wager of the Christian Brilliance of Blaise Pascal. So I have a friend, in fact, who never finished a PhD program because I think he was not wise. I think he was just too aggressive with his Christian faith and didn’t know when to be silent. It’s it’s a real it’s a tough balance. You know, you don’t wanna be cowardly, obviously. That’s not a virtue. You don’t wanna shrink back from your Christian testimony. At the same time, it should be a word in season, and you need discernment and wisdom from God. But you do need courage, certainly, and if you’re really in the thick of an academic environment, let’s say an academic conference, a philosophy conference, the goal of the people listening to you read your paper is to destroy you. That’s just how it works. At these conferences, you will almost never hear any respondent or anybody in the audience say, well, that was a very good point. And, in fact, you made several good points. Thank you so much. It’s always, well, in the third paragraph, you committed three logical fallacies and you didn’t get Descartes right. You know, so it is a very combative, environment, and it’s not for everybody. Yeah. I don’t do those sorts of things anymore. I did a lot more when I was younger when I was establishing my career. I put my ministry focus outside of the more academic conferences. But you gotta be willing to take it and stand your ground where you think you’re right and admit where you’re wrong when you think you’ve been shown to be wrong. And just standing up there in front of a bunch of, you know, academic barracudas takes some some confidence and courage and, prayer.

Jeff Johnson: Absolutely. How do you develop that kind of discernment? I mean, how do you exercise that muscle so that, you know, you know, okay. If it takes me another year to rewrite this in a different vein, I’m gonna do that versus, you know, turning the tables over in the temple and, you know, really make it a fuss. You know?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. Getting a lawyer. Right. Well, I don’t know that there’s a template or a formula. I think it’s a matter of prayer and staying in the scriptures, trying to be wise, having godly friends. In fact, back to that dissertation for a minute, my first wife, Rebecca Merrill Groothuis, who passed away in 02/2018, suggested the topic that I could have used for my second dissertation. She was very, very discerning and wise, and there was a very small section of that first dissertation that the readers liked, and she said, Could you expand this one small section into an entire dissertation? And it had to do why Blaise Pascal rejected arguments for God’s existence. But I did some research, and I found out almost no one had written about this, and no one had written about it in-depth. And you need that for a doctoral thesis. You need to do something new, something original. So I expanded that out and managed to finish it up, get my doctorate. But it takes, I’d say it takes this. It takes, prayer, good counsel, trial and error.

Jeff Johnson: I’m gonna deviate just for a second. Was Blaise was Blaise Pascal a man of great courage, would you say?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I think he was. He was a a very accomplished scientist, mathematician. He was known as a philosopher mostly after his death from his book Pensees, but he had to face opposition to some of his ideas in science. He was a sickly man his entire adult life. So he had to continue to work, through his illnesses and one of his sisters said that he didn’t complain. He kept working. He died young, age 39. But I think he had intellectual and physical courage to do what he did. He was also involved in a dispute with a group called the Jesuits over moral theology, and he wrote a series of essays challenging them, and they had all the power. So actually he had to write, synonymously at first, but even doing that, even writing without signing a name, was somewhat dangerous because this other group had all the power ecclesiastically, and the group that he represented, the Jansenists, did not. And, actually, eventually, the Jansenists were were condemned. So I think he was a man of of courage.

Jeff Johnson: Is our Christian. Is our, is our culture lacking in courage right now? Biblical courage?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, I think so.

Jeff Johnson: I think I kinda loaded that question.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. Right. But I think we have a ways to go in being strong and courageous and faithful. And let me point out one area, and that is standing on the unique revelation of God we have in scripture even when it goes against the culture. So I’ve been monitoring both about religious beliefs for years, like Barna and Gallup polls. There are many of them now. And over and over again, you have people who identify as evangelicals who don’t believe Jesus is the only way or who even say, there may not be a hell or God could accept people from other religions, things like that. And it’s probably a combination of ignorance and cowardice, and neither one is good for the propagation of the Gospel. So we need to have more courage to explain and defend what Christianity is so people become followers of Christ, and then we also need to articulate biblical positions on the great social issues of the day. And that takes knowledge and courage as well, especially if you’re going up against, the power structures of the day, whether that’s about abortion or LGBTQ activism or whatever it is. We need we need courage. Remember, courage, biblically understood, is courage to do the right thing in the right way for the glory of God. It’s not just, Well, I’ll set out a program and be brave and be bold and go out and change the world. Well, if it’s not endorsed by God, you’re not doing it according to the truth, if you’re not led by the Holy Spirit, then it really amounts to nothing. You know, as Paul says, that’s just wood, hay, and stubble.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. Mhmm. I shouldn’t I shouldn’t try to quote people unless I actually have it, so I’m paraphrasing, I believe, Leonard Ravenhill, who said something along the lines of, someday, some poor soul is gonna come along and read this book and believe it and put us all to shame. And I just think that all the information is right there in the scriptures, and it’s not takes discernment for sure.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I mean, that’s my opinion. Right. It’s not it’s not ambiguous. You know, it’s all right there for you.

Jeff Johnson: So along those lines, in second Timothy one seven, Paul reminds us that God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power, love, and self discipline, which certainly is talking about courage. How do we count the cost of apologetic courage while still being faithful to this calling, and what are the real world consequences that you’ve observed when Christians choose courage over comfort?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. That’s a very good question. I think of that scripture quite a bit, and I often exhort my students that God has not given us a spirit of being timid or cowardly, but power, love, and a sound mind. So we should know what we believe and why, and then take it to the streets as much as we can. There will be a cost, Jesus said, to deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me. It’s worth it because we’re following the Lord of the universe. And anything we deny of ourselves or any trials that we take on because we’re followers of Christ are worth doing because he’s the Lord. And we’re speaking the truth. We’re trying to articulate the gospel, live out a godly life. But, there can be a cost in in many areas. I know of positions in Canada who are pro life and do not endorse abortion and do not endorse doctor assisted suicide who are really being persecuted. Mhmm. And they have to take a stand, and it’s an ongoing battle with them. So Christians in medical ethic, in medicine, and so on have to draw the line and stand for the dignity of each individual life, born or unborn, handicapped or healthy, whatever it is. And in the LGBTQ area as well, that God made two texts, men and women, there’s no way to change from one to the other. Saying that in public can have a cause. You could lose your job. You could not be hired for an academic position. Mhmm. But it’s certainly worth it to keep a clear conscience before God, whatever happens to you. So there is often a cost for telling the truth, even telling the truth, speaking the truth in love with wisdom in a fallen world. I think of Stephen in Acts seven who gave this brilliant but condemning sermon to the Jews of their unbelief and their need to accept Christ as Messiah, and their response was to to cover their ears and then stone him. You know, the first martyr in the Bible for Christ was doing apologetic. Yeah. And he was a hero Wow. Because of his courage. I mean, there’s an example of tremendous courage of Stephen, let alone Paul’s exploits. Stephen didn’t live very long, but, he preached the truth. It was hard truth. It convicted them, and they killed them. Yeah. He’s a hero, and we have him in the bible in Acts seven.

Jeff Johnson: And Jesus promised us the same thing if we followed closely and did that. So, well…

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Let me give you one more verse.

Jeff Johnson: I’ve got too many questions for you.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. Please go ahead. Here’s a verse related to that. Jesus said, beware when all people speak well of you as they did the false prophet. The start of my life purge. You know?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Beware when all… there’s no not gonna be the case that all men speak well of me. I I’ve written and spoken on too many controversial issues. But, beware when you get along with everybody. Beware if you’re a people pleaser because if you’re trying to please people before pleasing god, then their priorities are out of alignment. You know, that’s something.

Jeff Johnson: Let me just stop here for a second and and thank you again. The your Truth Tribe podcast is fantastic. It really is, and the thing that comes across is humility, of course, and in speaking the truth. You know, you’re not mincing words, and you’re speaking directly to the subject, and it’s just so refreshing to be able to hear that kind of thing. So, yeah, I just pray that you keep that up forever and ever and ever because it’s…

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Oh, thanks. It’s blessed me. Yeah. I’m having to revise things a little bit, with it. I may need a new sponsor for it, but, yeah, it’s not a real impressive kind of podcast in the sense of giving things away or having guests, but I just try to speak what I think is important, what people need to hear. Let it sit with them.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. I, plugging along. Matthew, I won’t read the full scriptures for you, but just give you the reference. Matthew fourteen twenty seven talks about having be of good courage, second Chronicles thirty two seven, Joshua one nine. A lot of these verses that I that I see when I when I do my research, it says be strong and courageous. Those two things coming in.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Right. Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Deuteronomy thirty one six, first Corinthians sixteen thirteen. The bible references courage over and over and over again. And as I said, it’s often in conjunction with with strength, the term strength. Is courage a hallmark of a Christian? Do all men and women of faith have courage?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, we can and we should. I think it’s something we grow into that we have to continue to ask the Lord to help us to do hard things for right reason, because that’s what courage is, doing hard things for the right reason and not shrinking back, not be being cowardly, not avoiding, not evading. And I for many years, I put scripture verses on little cards. I take usually my old business cards, and then I’ll write scriptures on them, and I was just looking at some of them by my desk here, and so many of them had to do with courage. So here’s one: Speak the Word of God more courageously and fearlessly. That relates to Philippians one fourteen, Paul. Here’s Romans eight fifteen: For you did not receive the spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the spirit of sonship, and by him we cry, Abba, Father. Here’s another one from Philippians one twenty, Paul. I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. There are so many scriptures about courage to be strong related, of course, to faith in the Lord to give you the strength, give you the courage. And, you know, from a worldly perspective, it’s paradoxical because you think, well, if I’m courageous, it’s because I’m intrinsically strong, intrinsically wise. I’ve done all the work, and so I’m competent to take on the world. And, biblically, it’s actually the exact opposite. It’s all of your goodness, all of your strength, all of your wisdom comes from God as a gift. Now that doesn’t exclude research, training, whatever it may be, but the ultimate credit goes to God as the source for your abilities and, putting those abilities into action in difficult situations that require courage.

Jeff Johnson: So so, again, the is it second Corinthians 12 where the third heaven, Paul was had this dream? Mhmm. God’s will is made perfect in your weakness.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Right. Yeah. J. I. Packer wrote a wonderful small book towards the end of his life called Weakness is the Way. Mhmm. This is the Way. I reviewed that book, some years ago, maybe fifteen, twenty years ago. It seems odd. It’s very countercultural. Yeah. But, of course, Jesus said in John fifteen five, apart from me, you can do nothing. Nothing. So he is the one that atones for our sin. He’s the one that brings us into the body of Christ. He’s the one that sustains us and sustains the universe. And a lot can be done in the flesh. It can be very impressive for a time, but it won’t hold up for eternity. And you know that old thing, only one life and quickly passed only what’s done for Christ will last. I think that encapsulates a lot of biblical wisdom.

Jeff Johnson: So am I right in I’m asking you to give me a critique here now. So let’s hope that the overall podcast, which we’re like a 100 episodes in, doesn’t crater and end right here with doctor Groothuis.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Me to bury your podcast right here right now?

Jeff Johnson: No. No. No. You’re fantastic. You might point me in a different direction. I’m I’m I’m curious. Am I right in asking people the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Because the reason why I’m fascinated by that is because I think people can answer that question for their life. They can answer it, you know, in the context of a day. What’s the most courageous thing that you’ve done today? And I’m not talking about that bravado pounding your chest raging in and you know, of my own will, but I’m talking about that. I’m trying to suss out that courage that is God given where people stand up for the right thing and they do the right thing. Am I right to answer that ask that question?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Or Oh, I think it’s a it’s a very good question. And, you know, when you asked me, I said, I don’t know how to answer it.

Jeff Johnson: Someone didn’t come on the show. Right.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I couldn’t actually point to one thing per se, and then we interacted a bit about it on emails, and we really landed on the idea of courage for Christian witness. I guess that’s what I could speak to.

Jeff Johnson: Yes. Christian witness because that’s something God has led me in for almost fifty years.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: But it may be something, very different for other people. I mean, we all need to be witnesses to the truth of Christ, but courage can obtain in all kinds of different situations. It might be something really, dramatic, like jumping into freezing water to save somebody’s life. Mhmm. It’s obviously very courageous. It could be just facing down a fear that you have and doing the right thing anyway. Mhmm. Jay Adams would say, whatever your fears are, do the loving thing that God commands. Mhmm. Or God commands something. It doesn’t mad matter how much you don’t wanna do it or how frightened you are. You just need to do it and put one foot in front of the other, and you find that, God gives grace. I tell young people who are worried about public speaking that, even after all these years, maybe the first few minutes that I start a sermon or I start a talk, I might be a little bit nervous, not much. But then once I get going, that pretty much goes away, and I get in the flow and I feel a lot more confident in the Holy Spirit. And that’s what I tell them. It’s normal to have a little bit of fear of public speaking, especially your first cerebral talk. But get in there, show up, offer yourself, yourself unto the Lord, and if you’re in the right place doing what he’s called you to do, you’ll be fine. But it’s not it’s often said that courage is not the lack of fear, it’s embracing the fear and working through it for the right thing. For the right thing.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. Mhmm. That’s beautiful. A few more questions.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: You know? Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Given our current cultural moment where objective truth is often denied or relativized, how should Christian courage manifest when engaging postmodern skepticism? Now we’re in your wheelhouse, doctor.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: There we go. Yeah. How do we courageously defend truth claims? Yeah. Well, a number of years ago, I wrote a book called Truth Decay, Defending Christianity Against the Challenges of Postmodernism. So that’s my my book length response to that. But the short response is we need to have the proper concept of truth, before we get to the content of truth. So many people think that truth, especially spiritual truth, is relative and subjective. So I can have a spiritual truth Christianity, someone else can have a spiritual truth Buddhism, someone else Taoism. And it’s not a matter of objective reality or verification. It’s more like a hobby that you engage in. So we need to understand that the biblical view of truth is, if I can quote Romans three:four, Let God be true, though everyone be a liar. So when we talk about Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Him, we’re uttering a statement about objective reality and it’s an absolute. There are no exceptions to it, no exemptions from it. So we’ve got to get that straight and it’s not just, I have a Christian lifestyle that works for me. We’ve got to move way beyond that because someone could say, Well, good for you! I go to the Buddhist temple and I practice mindfulness, and it helps me calm down and be peaceful, helps my marriage. So, you know, use an old sixties phrase, different strokes for different folk. And we have to say, well, let’s talk about this. You know? The teachings of Jesus and Buddha differ about the nature of ultimate reality. Mhmm. We are as humans, what salvation is. So a few years ago, I released a book called World Religions in Seven Sentences and I looked at the relationship of Christianity to, six other religions plus, atheism. They’re not all claiming the same thing and they don’t all have the same level of intellectual support. In fact, Christianity, which I argue my big book Christian apologetics, is by far the best attested worldview as objectively true and rational and compelling for all of life. But so take some courage to say that, to, confess what you believe and why you believe it, because you’re going to be challenging some people’s beliefs. But we just have to do that. We need to do it, as we mentioned, with gentleness and respect. We wanna be led by the spirit, filled with spirit. But, you know, as Francis Schaeffer said, and he’s one of my heroes, he said truth demands confrontation. Loving confrontation, but confrontation. Another one of my heroes was, the late Walter Martin, who’s an expert on cults, wrote this classic book Kingdom of the Cults, and he said controversy for the sake of controversy is sin. Controversy for the sake of the gospel is a divine command. Yeah. I’ve tried to live that out. If you look at my writings and my public appearances and so on, you might say, boy, that Groothuis likes a fight. You know? He’s he’s written about the New Age movement, postmodernism, Islam, critical race theory. He’s got a book on other religions saying Christianity is true and the other ones are not. You know, that guy must just like to mix it up with people, and actually I don’t. The only reason I’ve written and spoken on these topics for the last almost fifty years is because I take it to be extremely important for the cause of Christ, because I take Christianity to be objectively true and compellingly rational and pertinent to all of life and time and eternity. So that’s why I wrote about the New Age movement, postmodernism, critical race theory, Islam, Buddhism, because these are alternative truth claims that are incompatible with Christianity. And the great commission tells us to take the message of Jesus out into the entire world, Which means we’ll have some disagreements with people. And we need to be both, courageous and also competent. You know, we need to know what we’re talking about in the world of ideas, and that’s what I’ve tried to help people with in my books, in my teaching, and my preaching over the years.

Jeff Johnson: Well, you sure helped me, and that’s a that’s an easy answer. Now I’m thinking, Jeff, he’s got an easy answer for what’s the most courageous thing I’ve ever done. You know, standing up for the truth. I mean, that is that’s…

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yes, overall. That’s it. Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I think was it John Stott that said that tolerance is not one of the spiritual gifts, you know, and it’s a marker for postmodernism and that sort of thing. And, yeah, I I always think, well, gosh. We’re supposed to be tolerant. You know? You hear that on every single commercial, and you read it on every billboard and stuff like we’re supposed to be super tolerant.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Well, loving. You know? Mhmm. You know? Mhmm. You know? All of that.

Jeff Johnson: Right. But know the tolerance. We can’t we can’t sacrifice what the truth is at all.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Right. Or one way of viewing it, and I think I might have gotten this from the Christian philosopher Peter Kreeft many years ago, I think. He said we should be tolerant of people. We tolerate people that have beliefs we disagree with, beliefs that are against Christianity, but we can’t tolerate their beliefs and say, oh, okay. You’re a Buddhist. Maybe that’s fine. I’m a Christian. Maybe that’s fine. Someone else is a Muslim. Let’s just tolerate everything. If you believe Christianity is true and rational and needful for everyone on the planet, then you can’t just say, oh, it’s fine if you’re good or it’s fine if you’re not. On one level, you say that if you’re an American in light of the freedom of religion. That is, I don’t wanna compel you to go to church or be a Christian. In fact, I can’t. That’s a matter of your conscience before God. So, yes, I believe in freedom of religion, but I don’t believe that all truth claims are true or supported by evidence and argument. So you have, in a sense, the right to believe and practice whatever religion you want within the bounds of the law, but you also have the right to be wrong.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. Okay. We’re coming up on the top of the hour, and I’m gonna be respectful of our time here. Although, I could go another two or three hours with this conversation. And I do recommend to people, we’ll put up in the show notes for sure, your bona fides and ways that they can get in contact with your writings and that sort of thing. I’ve got a copy of Christian Apologetics, and I love it dearly. And, of course, your your Truth Tribe podcast, I can’t say enough about that. So, Jeff, if you had doctor Groothuis on your podcast and you wanted to ask a question about courage, what’s the toughest question you can ask him? Okay. Here’s a tough question. Was Jesus a man of courage?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Oh, absolutely. But, you know, even Jesus had to struggle to fulfill his mission. And we see that in the Garden Of Gethsemane. When he’s, you know, sweating drops of blood and saying, lord, is there any other way? Because he knew all that his suffering and death would entail. But he did submit the reward. So, even somehow, it’s a bit of a mystery but in his humanity, he knew what was coming and he struggled to fulfill his calling. But he did. And we’re told in Hebrews that he saw the joy set before him. That would be after the cross and would be the resurrection and the ascension and the session and the second coming. And he knew that, but he also knew that dying on a cruel Roman cross and atoning for the sins of the world is the worst possible suffering. Period. It’s just the worst possible suffering. An innocent victim dying for the sins of the world is the worst suffering imaginable, and he was willing to do that for us. So that should really give us a sense of thanksgiving and wonder. And, Hebrews also says that though he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. So as a human, he still developed, we’re also told that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature before god and man before the beginning of his public ministry, though he was truly human and also divine.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: So even though he could have just snapped his fingers and shut it all down…

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. That he chose to go through that, which would have to your point, would have to be…

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Right. Courage. I think that’s the ultimate courage, but also when you look at his public ministry, the smartest religious people of the day were all out to get him and to confuse him or refute him, and they always failed. He won every argument. Yeah. And, I think he was I agree with Dallas Willard. He was the smartest man who ever lived. In fact, I have a little book I wrote years ago called On Jesus, and I argued that Jesus was a kind of philosopher. And he used rational arguments. He had a coherent world view. He knew how to stand up to challenges to his own moral positions, his own world view, and so on. That takes a lot of courage to argue with the leading thinkers of the day and never to be intimidated and never to, avoid issues. Yeah. Jesus is the ultimate example of of courage, especially the cross, yeah, more than anything.

Jeff Johnson: Last question. If you could leave our listeners with one key insight about the relationship between courage and faithful Christian living, what would it be?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Yeah. Well, it takes courage to be a witness to Christ. It takes courage to do hard things, whatever they are. As I said, not everything takes a lot of courage. Me going for a bike ride on the bike trail behind our house doesn’t take a lot of courage, but a lot of things do. Maybe challenging, an unbelieving family member with the gospel. You’ve never done that. You think, if I do this, will they get angry? They might even disown me. Well, that takes some courage. It takes courage to really seek the Lord, for example, in fasting and prayer. It’s hard to go a day or two without eating. It takes some courage to face that, discomfort, and so on. So courage is not optional for the Christian. We need courage in every aspect of life. I don’t know that we’ll need it in the new heavens and the new earth because it will be a place without death and without sin and without tears. So maybe there, everything is safe and beautiful and and still meaningful and we will work and serve the lord but since it won’t be a fallen world anymore, maybe we won’t even need it at that point but we sure need courage now. In so in every area of life, really. I think what CS Lewis said, courage is the first of all the virtues because it demands that we put our gifts into practice. You know, you go out there, you teach the class, you preach the sermon, you, lead the team, you write the article. I’m thinking kind of things that I do, but, you know, you apply to medical school or even though they might reject you. Mhmm. So, courage in a way I think is the the leading virtue, although in Christian ethics you want to say it all comes back to love, okay? Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with your heart, soul, strength, and mind and love your neighbors yourself, but love requires courage. Mhmm. Actually, loving your enemy and and trying to think of ways of being loving that are difficult or maybe uncomfortable. I think love requires courage as well.

Jeff Johnson: Mhmm. That’s wonderful. So grateful to have you on the program today, doctor Groothuis. If people wanted to get to know you, if they aren’t familiar with your writings and they wanted to start reading you, not just necessarily on the topic of courage, but where would you recommend people jump in?

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: I have a web page, which is called douglasgroothuis.com, and you can find actually, everything there is free. You’ll find links to articles and lectures and so on. I’ve written a lot of books. They’re all related to apologetics directly or indirectly. My major work is called Christian Apologetics, which is in a second edition with InterVarsity Press. Mhmm. That’s a textbook, but I tried to make it very approachable and interesting to the common person. I don’t assume that you have a…

Jeff Johnson: there it is. Yeah. We got it ready.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: Have a big background in apologetics. I I try to start with a thoughtful leader and then take them as deep into the subject as I can. But I think my web page would be a good place to start, and I’m always willing to entertain possibilities of being on programs, doing public speaking, particularly at universities and colleges. I’d like to do more of that. Before I became a full time professor, gosh, thirty two years ago, I had been in campus ministry for twelve years at three different oh, was it two? Two different campuses.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, doctor Douglas Groothuis, what a pleasure, man of great courage. Thank you so much for blessing me with taking the time and blessing our audience with everything that you shared here today. Thanks for being on the program.

Dr. Douglas Groothuis: You’re welcome. I appreciate being with you.

Outro: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.