Accountant in the Arena: Jeff Johannesen on Quiet Acts of Courage

Jeff Johannesen is a retired CPA and former Chief Strategy Officer at RSM, where he spent over four decades transitioning from client service into high-level leadership, helping shape the firm’s national and global direction. In this episode, Jeff shares his journey from a small-town Iowa farm to the boardrooms of a major professional services firm, reflecting on the decisions that demanded real courage—from walking away from a farming future during the 1980s crisis to stepping out of a secure leadership role to make space for others and take on new, uncharted challenges. With thoughtfulness, humility, and practical wisdom, Jeff unpacks his personal definition of courage, the risks he chose to take, and why learning to be “comfortable being uncomfortable” has been key to both his professional growth and personal integrity.

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Full Transcript

Intro: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Courage is contagious. That’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast and ask people that very poignant question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Because everybody has it. Everybody’s got a way that they can answer that question. And sometimes, courage is standing right in front of you, staring you right in the face, and that’s the case with this next guest of mine.

I’m lucky enough to consider Jeff Johannesen a friend of mine. He’s a colleague, somebody that I’ve known for quite some time, and, I never thought to ask him the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done until he was so gracious to sit down with us a few days ago, and, I was able to ask him the question and got a beautiful answer. So you’re gonna be very encouraged by this particular podcast episode, and, I can’t wait for you to hear my good friend, Jeff. So without further ado, here is mister Johannesen. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the program.

I really appreciate you taking time with us to talk about the wonderful topic of courage. Can you give our listeners a little bit of idea of your background, as much or as little as you wanna tell, but who are you? How’d you get where you’re at? Where are you talking to us from, etcetera?

Jeff Johannesen: Good. Good. Well, I live in Urbandale, Iowa right now. My kids graduated from Waukee. So we’ve lived in Central Iowa since 1985, but but I grew up in Northwest Iowa on a farm near Alta. My wife is from Storm Lake. So, couple hours from here. And, actually thought I was gonna be a farmer. Went to college, thinking, you know, maybe I would have a second, second occupation to support my farming of being a a tax preparer up in up in that area. So I’d have a winter job of being in tax, and I’d have a summer job, you know, farming and family farm and carry that on. Well, I graduated from college in 1981. And if, you know, if you remember anything about that history back then, for those that are listening, that that was the farm crisis. So there was no there was no room for me to come into the farming operations. So I thought, well, I’ll just go out and use this this accounting CPA thing and and just do this for a while. And I got plenty of flexibility, and I’ve got time, and I just waited out. Well, got into the per CPA profession and joined a firm called McLeodrie Hendrickson and Company at that time and and, just never left. I, at some point, my dad came to me around 1990 and said, hey. Are you, interested in coming back for me? And that was the first time I actually I was already a partner by then, and he said and I said, no. I don’t no. I don’t think I am. I think I’m just gonna keep doing this. I like this. I like being around people more than I would be if I was sitting on a tractor, and, you know, I love that lifestyle. I love growing up that way, but, I really liked what I was doing. I liked working with the clients. It was challenging. You’re around smart people. I got to know I was learning business, you know, so that all worked well. Well, by then, I I had first started in Marshalltown and moved to Des Moines in ’85. Mhmm. And a great location for a better handling company, which is now RSM. But Mhmm. Yeah. It was just it was, it’s been a great profession for me. And I had, I served clients for probably the first first two thirds of my career. And then after that, I got some other leadership roles that were you know, maybe we’ll get into that here in a little bit. But, yeah, I had to I I feel really good at my career. Retired from the firm a year and a half ago, the fall of twenty twenty three, and, picked up a few other things to keep me busy on the business side and also on the personal side. So, yeah, that’s where I am.

Jeff Johnson: And it was a very practical decision for you to go into accounting, but, again, like you said, you were gonna do it alongside of the farming.

Jeff Johannesen: I was gonna that was the plan. Everybody has plans. Right? Or they usually try to figure things out. That was my plan. It didn’t work out that way, but I’ve thought about this many times and I’ve seen it happen so many times play out. What appears to be really, really bad, you know, the farming crisis was terrible. A lot of people lost lost their livelihood, their farms, family, you know, businesses, that type of thing. But for me, it turned out, like, there was a silver lining. I got into this, this profession. I did well at it. You and I wouldn’t be talking today if I had gone and become a part. Right? I mean, all the people that I know today, that the population would be so much different, that I wouldn’t have had any of those type of experiences had there not been a farm crisis. You know? So, yeah, you look at what’s what you’re trapped in that’s bad today, if you can kinda get your mind up above that a little bit and start thinking there’s a bigger thing going on here that I don’t see. It may be, you know, from an internal perspective, it may not. But I it’s not all gonna be bad. It’ll be fine. You just gotta kinda get your head there.

Jeff Johnson: So what you’ve you came from a family farm, you said?

Jeff Johannesen: Yes.

Jeff Johnson: Did your did your family struggle during the farm crisis, or was that the weather at all?

Jeff Johannesen: I really didn’t I really didn’t realize they were struggling. I just knew there wasn’t enough money to support me. And, so but, yeah, my mom has told me my dad’s passed, but my mom told me that that was a tough time. That was a really tough time, and everybody was There’s somebody. You just guessed. I think I think you just heard the, paint gun go up upstairs. So he’s, he’s been very unhappy with that.

Jeff Johnson: So That’s true. Yeah. We got an alarm system at our house too. So Yeah. Very, very fortunate.

Jeff Johannesen: No. It, they did have sort of I don’t know if they ever really came close to losing their operation. Great great farmers. They my dad could do all repair work. He I think he could have been an engineer if he would have went to college, but he enjoyed, you know, farming and that was his life. And he, farmed with his brother is, you know, my uncle for fifty years and they were best friends and they vacation together and they farm together. So it was great. It was a great lifestyle, but it just turned out to be one that, that I stand to go back to.

Jeff Johnson: Wasn’t for you. Do you have siblings?

Jeff Johannesen: I have two sisters. Nobody is farming the ground anymore. We have somebody that farms it for my mom. Okay. I don’t think I’ll go back. I mean, I won’t do it now, but, no. It it was a good run. We have a century farm in the family still, so that’s cool.

Jeff Johnson: Wow.

Jeff Johannesen: We haven’t sold that. So, but that’s that’s neat. It’s just part of my heritage, I guess.

Jeff Johnson: And Well, so this is interesting to me because I haven’t talked to anybody, I don’t think, on the podcast that comes from that kind of a farming background necessarily. But, you know, when I think about the topic of courage and this question that we’re gonna get to in a minute, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done, you think about these different people groups, and everybody can answer that question. But, you know, I would think of farmers as being typically courageous people and probably for that reason during the farm crisis, weathering the storm, you know, not knowing one year and the next. Is that true?

Jeff Johannesen: Yeah. I think so. I I absolutely think so. Maybe when you grow up in it, I mean, I would’ve realized just, you know, how much risk and, that you’re exposed to when I was there doing it. You just thought you could fight through it. And, but if you think about pricing, you don’t get to set your own prices. You you have to pick when you sell during the year, but you don’t really establish pricing. So if there’s a, you know, if there’s a surplus of grain, you’re gonna you’re gonna get paid real poorly, for your grain, potentially. You don’t really control pricing, and you really don’t control the weather. As much as like to pray and try to, you really don’t control the weather. So those two factors, and as I got out of farming and I thought back about it, it’s like, I I think I can have a more risk reward balanced lifestyle and and career in something else other than that. Everything has risk. Right? You’re in business. Now we were I was in business as a owner in a CPA firm, but but I I liked the risk reward model better than in farming because because I liked the ability to to have some element of control. At least if you made mistakes, you’d pay for it when whereas not to have pricing and weather just take you out Yeah. Or or farm, you know, or 18% interest rates or something. So, yeah, I it it it to me, when I thought through it from a logic perspective and I don’t know how much we’ll get into this, but I I’m potentially could overanalyze things. Maybe that’s why I’m an accountant. But, so maybe the courageous part is really interesting for me. But, yeah, my dad, I don’t think was ever I don’t think he ever considered doing anything else. I don’t think he even viewed it as courageous. He just had faith that when he did the work and, you know, it would work out and they’d get the rain and there’d be enough prices to get through it. And and he was a good farmer. He knew he was a good farmer. So And and that’s something. Did you would have been a more courageous move for me to farm than for him to farm. There’s different different levels of courage

Jeff Johnson: That’s interesting. Right? That’s an interesting way to put it. Yeah. Okay. Give me your definition, Jeff, of courage.

Jeff Johannesen: Let me let me think think aloud with you a little bit on that. So I think it’s generally something bold. I think it’s a decision you make on purpose. It’s intentional. I I don’t think you just oh, now I’m, I’m trapped and I gotta get out. I don’t think that’s courage. I think you’re just trying to survive then. I think it’s something, at least for me, I have to get, if I’m going out of my comfort zone, that’s probably part of it as well. If I’m very comfortable where I am, I’m not sure I’m using any courage muscle. So intentionally going outside my comfort zone, probably, I hope it’s for something altruistic or productive or helpful. And I think it’s the other thing is you gotta hang in there. You brought that up earlier. You know, the farmers who had to hang in there, and that probably did require some courage. You know? Do you have do I do this another year or not? This I can’t control these interest rates. So, yeah, intentional, bold, significantly out of your comfort zone and something that you just hang in there on. I don’t know. Those I’d it’s not being foolish. Maybe you can help define it by going the other direction too. It’s not being foolish, and I don’t think it’s being reckless. I don’t think that’s courage. I think courage has has a little bit of thought to it, you know, the accountant here. But I think you’ve kinda thought through this. You go, okay. There’s risk. I think I understand that, and, I’m gonna be courageous, and I’m gonna I’ve calculated there. I think it’s worth it even if it’s a pretty high risk. You know, driving through an intersection at 80 miles an hour in a residential zone is is reckless. It’s not courageous.

Jeff Johnson: So Well, John Lennox talks about how, you know, he’s a famous Christian theologian and a and a hero of mine. He talks about how faith is not just blindly rushing in, but it is a rational response to knowing who God is. It’s still the Bible says, you know, that it is we don’t know. You know what I mean? Hope for. It’s what you hope for. What you don’t know. So I guess you’re giving me a very John Lennox kind of definition of courage too because it is you’re right. It’s not a foolish thing. I think there’s wisdom around it.

Jeff Johannesen: I I do. I it doesn’t mean it’s not courageous just because you’ve thought through it. You know, there’s definitely risk in any kind of decision you make like that, but you don’t do it without some level of thought. It might be a a three second thought. You may not have much more time to think of something like that. Right? If it’s really burning building urgent type stuff Yeah. That’s gonna require it. But for the most part, I think a lot of courageous actions are pretty well thought through, and maybe that’s what differentiates foolishness from being courageous. And And sometimes, I’m not sure you know the difference if you’re going in. You you might be a fool. You might not be, but, but I think maybe that’s what differentiates it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Who who represents courage to you? Oh, there’s a lot of people. Like, you think of that person, you’re like, man, that person, that’s courage.

Jeff Johannesen: Okay. I woulda I woulda my wife woulda been in first place until Saturday. Okay? So, I mean, she went over to The Middle East and did a a a missions trip, to a closed country, which you can get yourself in a lot of trouble doing that. They don’t like people talking to other people folks about being Christian, right, in Yeah. The country that I can’t name because it’s public. But, but, I I heard a missionary talk on Saturday that had, has done a lot of work overseas in Europe, which is not particularly courageous. It’s very impactful. I know he was very impactful. But he said that what during the Afghanistan war, he decided he was gonna go into that war zone and be a missionary there. And I thought, well, that was pretty courageous, and I I think that was not foolish. However, he said something that just floored me. He said of of the people that he knew in country in Afghanistan, 25 they buried 25 of them. Not not people from these were missionaries they buried, and they stayed there.

Jeff Johnson: Oh, wow.

Jeff Johannesen: And I didn’t I wasn’t real clear, but I think it was the Taliban. Obviously, it was a war zone, so they could have gotten hit by a mortar shell or whatever, but I don’t I don’t think that was it. I think these were local people that knew what they were doing and were taking them out, and they hung in there and stayed there. So, again, foolish or courageous. And from your from a Christian perspective, it was courageous and and valuable to the kingdom, but, you know, from somebody else’s perspective, that would be foolish. Yeah. So but so that person just edged out my wife. She, she didn’t have to go through something like that. But I I I think she you know, when you have children and and you have a pretty decent life sitting in the Midwest and, you don’t have to go do something like that. And then she was willing to do that. I thought that was very courageous on her part. But now she’s in second place. So Yeah. And again, I heard on Saturday. So

Jeff Johnson: She’ll listen to this podcast, and she’ll she’ll go, you know, take on a lion or something.

Jeff Johannesen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. She’ll still show me up.

Jeff Johnson: So Well, I’ve got a lot more questions to ask you, but I think I’m gonna do it on the other side of this question, Jeff. So let’s go ahead and get right down to it. Jeff Johannesen, what is the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

Jeff Johannesen: Well, you have to realize you’re asking an accountant.

Jeff Johnson: That’s okay.

Jeff Johannesen: So this may this may not rate it very high in your scale. It really was in business, I would say. When I was because I knew this question was coming. Right? It’s pretty obvious that you’re gonna ask that question. So I thought, well, maybe the most courageous thing, you know, two thirds of the way through my career, I was willing to, move away from client service, which I was doing fine at. I know I was doing I was a good client server and had a nice, career there and, started getting into management and leadership in the firm. And what happens in a CPA firm, professional services firm, I assume, certainly in ours, if, if you don’t perform well there just because you had done well in the client service role doesn’t mean there’s room for you back in the client service side. So I was taking my career and saying, okay. This has worked well, and I’m very comfortable. Right? It’s a challenging job to serve clients. You have to there’s a ton of things you have to be able to do and to grow the practice at that level. But, but to move out of that, then it became, challenging and uncomfortable to go into that role. So I thought, well, maybe that’s the most, impactful or most courageous thing I did, but I don’t think it was. I think something that happened seven years later was probably the most courageous thing for me, and that was when the CEO came to me and said, hey. You know, things are going really well in tax across the country. You’ve got a good team. We’re making good money. We’re growing well. I’d like you to do something else. And it’s like, oh, you know, because I could have easily finished up my career leading that practice, and it would have been great. Like you said, I have a nice team. We’re profitable. We’re growing. We had some good initiatives going on. I had worked hard to kinda get it to that point. And and I and so he said, well, I’d like you to become this take this role on. Be the chief strategy officer for the firm, lead up innovation efforts, which we need help with. And, I went from I went from probably having, I don’t know, 2,500, 3,000 people reported to me and owning a p and l and, you know, having things going really well to I had to recruit two people to join me. And, so I went from I went from, having a position where, you know, you’re pretty much you just keep doing what you’re doing and everything’s fine. Yeah. But I felt a couple I think it was courageous because it was like, I still have I still wanna be here. I still wanna be a pack full. You know, everyone knows who you are if you’re in that leadership role. Mhmm. People are people would come up to me after I did take this and accept this role and say, are you planning on leaving? Are you retiring? I was like, no. I’m not. I’m still gonna have an impact here. It’s gonna be it’s gonna be different. But the other thing that was really on my mind is I knew because we had such a strong leadership team that there were a couple people on that team that needed a chance to do what I was doing and I had had a chance to do for seven years. So, it was a pretty I think it was courageous, but it was a fairly easy yes. And I thought, why did I answer that so quickly when he asked me? And I and I think it came down to I felt like we I things had gone well, so I didn’t have to worry, you know, oh, you know, this looks like I’m, you know, I’m things are going poorly, so it just looks like I’m giving up. And I trusted the CEO. I really trusted him. I knew what he was doing, he was trying to do for the organization. And interestingly, I’ll I’ll share this. The the two people that I thought had the greatest chance of of getting the the role that I vacated so they could, you know, one of them became the tax leader, and is now the global CEO for the firm. So he, you know, if I if I had stuck around till a year and a half ago, and he hadn’t had that chance, and he’s very talented. But he, not only had that role, then he took another step, you know, even outside of our firm and became the global CEO for the entire organization. So that was cool. Yeah. And then the other person that didn’t get it when he got to NetHack, now he’s the tax leader today. So it’s, it it worked out well, and that was on my mind back then. But it it’s unusual for someone, at least it was in our firm, to give up a role that you had gotten to and and aspire to and and been and being successful in so that someone else could have that chance. And also I had to, I had to get into a role where I really didn’t know how to be a chief strategy officer. I knew all about tax and I figured I knew what we had to do there. But it worked. I mean, it worked out, and I was able to finish my career there and and make a difference. And we developed a strategy for The US that was robust enough that they adopted it globally, for the most part. I mean, they took it and they made some word changes to make sure it fit across the world. But so that was good. It it worked out great, but it was letting go of some security. And if there’s anything an accountant can do, they can math through things and figure things out and what’s gonna work and if you stay on this linear path. And and, so I went from you know, we talked I talked about this earlier. I went from having a job that was challenging again, but one that was comfortable because it was working so well. Yeah. And I and I stepped into kinda later in my career, pretty late in my career, a job that was I knew was gonna be challenging, and I probably would never get comfortable the rest of my career doing. I’d never really get to a point where I felt comfortable because I didn’t have 2,500 people reporting to me anymore. And I you had to figure out a way to to influence people. You know, when you’re running something, you’re in control. When you’re trying to influence from a different perspective, that’s different. That that gets you out of being comfortable.

Jeff Johnson: This is interesting to me, Jeff, and this is a wonderful answer to this question. See, this is this is the whole point of the podcast. Everybody can answer this question, and every answer is so unique and it’s so fascinating. I I always think of promotions, movements inside of a business, and yours is a very, very large business like you’re describing, as being at least at least and I don’t mean selfish in a derogatory sense, but self serving, again, not in a not in a negative sense. But, you know, you’re looking after your family and you’re doing the right thing, you know, but it’s but you but you’re moving yourself forward. You’re talking about something that’s a little bit more altruistic than that and a little bit more selfless than that. So you’re making room for somebody as well as moving on.

Jeff Johannesen: Right. I I yeah. I think you can position I mean, believe me, I had the selfish thoughts in there. Believe me. It was it was all, like, oh, yeah. No problem. But I I trust you. I trusted the organization a lot. So it was a little it was easier. I mean, it took it wasn’t quite as courageous, but weren’t a lot of people that did what I did. So, yeah, it was a little bit unnerving and little bit out certainly, it was out of my comfort zone. Certainly, that that part of the definition we talked. And I and I have a feeling some people would have said that was just foolish. Even they might even look back now and say that was foolish. I don’t think it was. I think it worked out really fun wonderfully for me and for the firm.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. That’s the follow-up then because, yeah, bold, intentional, you know, out of your definitely out of your comfort zone. So what did that what did that teach you, and what happened to you in your endeavors after you did that? Did you become more courageous?

Jeff Johannesen: Yeah. I I think I did. You know, I think we’re all born with some you know, we’re all born with DNA. We all have certain experiences growing up. I think we probably all start on the courage journey from a slightly different place. Mhmm. But then you have to figure it out as you go. And I was fortunate. I I you know, whether I decided always intentionally or not, I get put in situations that put me out of my comfort zone or I got opportunities to put me out of my comfort zone. So I usually said yes, and, I usually got uncomfortable, but then you learn to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right? You learn that it works out and you can rely on other people and you have certain beliefs and work ethic that generally it’s gonna work out. And and I think every time I every time I went and did something that I didn’t I could’ve made the safe decision, I think it was good for me, and I think it was good for other people when I did that. So and I would include that last thing that we just talked about, which was it was good for me to get into something else. Now I’ve got a, you know, four year four years of being a chief strategy officer of thinking about innovation. Now I’m, you know, post RSM, and I’m able to add the boards business boards and things in a different perspective than if I just sat in that, tax leader role. We had a whole another add on to what I had experienced, that I would never woulda had. So, yeah, it helped me, but I know it helped the organization too. And I was still on the senior leadership team. It wasn’t like I got booted off. So I was still able to contribute to running the firm and and being there, but I just didn’t have that safety net of, well, you’re running the business and you’re now you’re even more overhead now, so we really don’t need you anymore. Right. Right.

Jeff Johnson: Did you have did you have doubts? Did you have trepidation?

Jeff Johannesen: Only when people started telling me I was a fool. Then I then I did. No. I really didn’t. I and I doubt the only doubt I woulda had more than anything is, can I really do this? Is this I mean, I gotta start from I never went to school or learn strategic, you know, thinking in a class. I did I was part of setting the strategy for the firm when we had done it, you know, but not in the person in the lead role. So felt like I could do it, trusted the CEO. Yeah. I it was, there were some doubts in there. But for the most part, I think I had gotten to a point finally in my career where I had enough confidence. I thought, no. This is gonna work. I’m gonna this will work. I’ve got people that are gonna support me, but I also know I can make this work. I’m smart enough to do this, and I know enough about the firm. So and how it’s run that’ll make it work. So, yeah, I felt there were doubts, but, you know, you just gotta kinda get those in the background, not let them chirp in your head.

Jeff Johnson: Does it take, I know you’re sought after for boards and stuff like that, and you’d mentioned sitting on them. Do you do you find courage when you’re sitting on a board like that?

Jeff Johannesen: I just love sitting. I I love them. I love to watch the it’s fun to be part of the business challenge, but not have to then the next day have to execute it anymore. That’s what’s really nice. So I’m, maybe it’s not as courageous. Yeah. That’s not as courageous as when you’re actually running the the business, I think. I think running business takes a ton of courage. I think being on a board is takes, takes some thoughtfulness and perspective, and maybe you can draw on some experience and give them things to think about. But when the people gotta go in there and actually do it, that’s the hard part. That that’s more courageous than what I do as a board member.

Jeff Johnson: But they taught you know, the Bible talks about truth spoken in love is like a kiss on the lips, you know, and it also says as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. So there Yep. Sometimes people have to hear the brutal truth, and the hard stuff that takes some courage.

Jeff Johannesen: That’s that’s fair. And, that is fair because what’s good, a transparent board that that is actually talking about alternatives and with some level of disagreement or if you wanna call it drama. What is that? Peter book, Death by Meeting? I I think if you remember I don’t know. But that’s meetings that don’t have a low element of drama or try to get to it, this really aren’t worth going to.

Jeff Johnson: Right. It’s an interesting book. Right. Do you think well, you’ve touched on this just a little bit because you talked about the intentionality of it. Do you think everybody has courage in them?

Jeff Johannesen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I think everybody has courage. Again, it’s just the starting point. Now some people may really try to stay in their comfort zone. I mean, that may be their goal is to never really get out of their comfort zone, which you can probably live your entire life that way, but maybe, maybe not. I I think if you don’t ever exercise, building courage, something’s going to find you and put you into a corner, and you’re gonna need some courage at some point. I I I don’t think you can get through your whole life. Right? It’s gonna be an illness. It’s gonna be a you’re gonna get fired. You’re gonna be faced with, you know, some major issue, whether it’s your illness or someone you’ve known and loved, and you’re gonna need some courage to kinda fight through some things. So I would yeah. I don’t think it’s good to try to stay in your comfort zone all the time, but I think a lot of people wanna do that. I know. I I mean, that’s my natural in inclination. Probably there are people that get adrenaline runs from the always being on the edge of the seat of their seat and, you know, on the cutting edge or the bleeding edge of of excitement or exercising their courage muscle. I’d like to stay back where it’s more comfortable, but I just knew that I really couldn’t. And I don’t think I don’t think people are gonna make as big an impact, and I don’t even think their life is gonna be as good if they don’t exercise their courage muscle a little bit.

Jeff Johnson: You were you were exposed to a lot of businesses, including my own, in your

Jeff Johannesen: Right. Right.

Jeff Johnson: Practice. Yes. So I’m sure I’m sure you can’t speak specifically or name names or anything like that, but I’m curious. From the perspective that you had, that unique perspective of being the accountant that oversees all of the were you were you witness to courage in businesses?

Jeff Johannesen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And, maybe in my definition, you know, the the entrepreneurial side I did a lot of family owned business stuff. You know? The entrepreneurial side is really interesting, different than what I did. When we just talked about a bigger organization and all these people and HR and all that support stuff, that’s that’s one skill set to run a business. When you’re an entrepreneur or you have a family business and you’re a little bit closer to farming than what I was, you know, at at RSM, it you get to that almost that resilience thing, the you just hang in there. I I saw a lot of courage around that. And I know people had sleepless nights, and I know they had tough decisions. You know, sometimes from the outside, you would know this being a business owner, and I saw it. And from talking to people who run businesses from the outside, it looks like, oh, they’re just really successful, and they just it’s easy to run businesses, and they have a lot of money, and it is not. The decisions that people have to make, and they’re and they’re monumental to the success of the business. Right? So, yeah, I think courage is it’s it’s tough. You don’t always have all the information. Right? If if everybody had all the information, anybody could make the decision. So many times business owners do not have the information. Right. Pricing, what’s the competition doing, where’s the industry going. They don’t know. They’ve just gotta figure it out, and then they’ve gotta make a decision, and they’ve gotta they’ve gotta make a bet, and they’ve gotta go with it. Right? So that’s a lot of curve. And I think they get used to it, though. That’s the other thing. Right? They get better at it. They get very good at at being courageous, and that may not even feel like being courageous anymore. They just get really good at it. Something that might terrify somebody else, you know, day one being in the business owner position, and there’s another guy that’s forty years down the road. He’s like, no big deal. Yeah. You got this. This you’re right.

Jeff Johannesen: You’re overthinking. But that comes back to the definition. What’s your comfort zone? Right? Once you’ve been in the business forty years, your comfort zone’s way I mean, out of forty years with RSM, I felt a lot different than my first year when I was terrified to meet with a client, you know, by myself. I could handle that forty years in. Right. And and do a lot more than that. So, yeah, you do learn things. And you but it is kind of a courage is a little bit about where you are your comfort zone is now. And to do something courageous for an experienced person is way different than someone when I think of my grandkids or my even my kids and what they think, what pushes them out of their zone.

Jeff Johnson: So Can you can you tell if somebody’s courageous? I mean, is there a is there an aura, or is there a sense, or is there a feel about them when you’re sitting across the boardroom table? You know, you haven’t really got to know them very much, but you can just tell.

Jeff Johannesen: Yes. There is. But it’s not arrogance or overconfidence. If that’s not what I’d say is courageousness. It’s someone who does understand, you know, the alternatives and the options and the risks, and then they make that decision. They don’t over analyze. They they will make the bet and they and they have to have a level of confidence in what they’re gonna do. And that confidence, you know, it comes with experience and that type of thing. But but it’s not foolishness. It’s not recklessness. And it doesn’t mean they’re making the right decision just because they’re not being foolish or reckless. It’s just they’re making a decision. They’re going with it.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. That’s interesting. Just a couple more questions, Jeff, and I’ll let you get out of here. I really appreciate the time that you’re spending with us today. Is faith I know you to be a faithful man.

Jeff Johannesen: Yep.

Jeff Johnson: Is faith and courage, do they require each other?

Jeff Johannesen: In the in in where we live, you know, 20 miles apart or 15 miles apart from each other, Not as much as we it would probably be helpful for us. I mean, I’m saying that because of, I think we live in a, part of the world that, accepts Christianity. You could argue you could debate, you know, is that trend which way is that trending? I think from your own personal relationship, I think, yes, there is an element of faith that has some courage element if you just wanna think individualistic with your relationship with Jesus. Mhmm. But societal right now, there might be a little pressure on us, but I think about those missionaries in Afghanistan who were Yeah. You know, that that definitely they they were there for a different reason, and they put their life you know, we all we like to say, you know, Jesus is number one in my life. Oh, okay. Well, why don’t you go over to Afghanistan and and, and talk to people about being a Christian, and and then when someone tries to kill you and you don’t leave, then we’ll see if Jesus is number because really, we’re number one. Right? Right. That’s and I’m not saying even that isn’t that’s just natural instinct. So you’ve gotta be somewhat courageous to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. And, it’s just at a whole different level for me, and probably you, although I know you do a lot. But it’s just it it’s at a different level for those people than it is for us. So

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. No. That’s a good answer. I, yeah, I I believe that all men of faith have and women of faith have courage, but I don’t know that that’s always called out of them. I don’t know that we’re yeah. And like you’re talking about, you know, we’re in a very comfortable part of the world, and so sometimes, you know, we’re not we’re not called on to have courage.

Jeff Johannesen: I I, I heard a story. I’ll I’ll try to do it quickly. But Mhmm. Where somebody was visiting DOS from a, I don’t know, country, a third world country where they didn’t have a lot of comforts, and he was a believer and and, interacting with, you know, Christians here. And and somebody asked him as he was getting ready to leave, you know, what he thought about The US and etcetera. He goes, I’m really ready to go home. And his and they said they kinda were surprised, you know, because they had all these wonderful things here and comfortable life. And and, he said, things are too nice here. He goes, I’m starting to lose my trust in God. And I thought, well, that’s interesting. Right? He wanted to get back because he felt himself getting distanced from his relationship with God, Jesus. And, yeah. So he wanted to leave and get away from all this excess and this luxury.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I thought, wow. So I’m not really getting persecuted, so how’s that really impacting me? Or my life’s pretty easy with from that perspective. So I’ve, yeah, that’s a really good point. Last question for you, Jeff. If you think of the catalytic moment in your life, maybe it’s when you took off for college, studying or trying to make that decision whether or not to come back to the family farm or not. Based on the courageous life that you’ve lived so far, what kind of advice would you give a younger Jeff?

Jeff Johannesen: Well Or encouragement. The younger Jeff and probably the older Jeff still has a I I I love that comfort zone thing. Right? I think I could have made even a a bigger impact in our firm, and maybe parts of my personal life if I think about it, if I had been a little bit more courageous earlier. So you can get where you think through things too much. Right? I mean, I said you need to do things with wisdom and not be foolish, but you don’t need to, prove things every every which way you can think of before you actually take action. Right? Sometimes your instincts probably eight times out of 10, if you think about it a little bit, your instincts are right. Then whether that’s holy spirit, whether that’s just your experiences, whatever it is. So I think I could have been bolder, earlier in my career and probably had a bigger impact on on the firm. Even then, you know, I got a chance to do a lot of things, but maybe I just could have done it earlier. And and and, and so I’ve learned I’ve learned partly through my national tax leader role that I’ve just gotta I’ve just gotta not babysit this thing. I’ve gotta actually try to do something with it that’s gonna be really, really impactful and make it a lot better long term, not just while I’m here. And so I would I would have pushed, younger Jeff to try to be bolder earlier instead of trying to be quite so careful.

Jeff Johnson: Gotcha. That’s a wonderful word to end on. Jeff, a man of great courage and a friend of mine. I learned a lot from you. Thank you so much for being on with us.

Jeff Johannesen: Yeah. Well, I I appreciate the invite. It was fun talking to you. So

Jeff Johnson: Thank you.

Outro: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.