From the Battlefield to Brotherhood: Jimmy May’s Mission Beyond War

Jimmy May is a retired Navy SEAL with over two decades of service, including six wartime deployments across Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and the broader Middle East. A Texas native now based in California, Jimmy is the founder of Mayday Executive Services, which curates high adrenaline, high-security experiences for executives, and Beyond the Brotherhood (www.beyondthebrotherhood.org), a nonprofit that supports at-risk special operations veterans through mentorship, wellness, and career transition. Since retiring, Jimmy has focused on public speaking, faith, and leadership, championing mental health and purpose for veterans navigating life after service. His story of resilience, humility, and courage—both on and off the battlefield— is featured on The Courageous Crossroads podcast, a show hosted by Jeffrey L. Johnson that explores real-life decisions requiring bold, moral, and spiritual courage, spotlighting individuals who step up when it counts most.

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Full Transcript

Intro: Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

Jeff Johnson: Hey, friends. This is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. We’ve been off for a couple of weeks curating some fresh interviews, and I’ve got a fantastic one for you. Navy SEAL Jimmy May spent twenty three years in the teams, and he joins us on today’s podcast to answer that question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

And he also talks about this idea of courage and defines courage for all of us. He talks about physical courage, moral courage, talks about praying and trusting in God, working hard and taking action, seeking wise counsel, the value of mentorship. There’s a lot in this interview that you’re gonna enjoy, but the nuance of his definition of courage and some of the stories he tells is gonna be very valuable to each and every one of you. So I’m excited to introduce you to Jimmy May, and we get started with him talking about another enthusiasm of his, bees. So back from this trip, like I mentioned, to West Texas, 1 of the ladies that I met there at a restaurant had bees.

Jimmy May: And Right.

Jeff Johnson: Just a few hives. You know? I mean, she was just keeping them for herself. She didn’t have enough honey to, like, sell or anything like that, just enough to give to family and that sort of thing.

Jimmy May: That’s right.

Jeff Johnson: She said that they she said that there was a swarm that came in, like, a couple days before. She showed me a picture of this thing that, you know

Jimmy May: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: Buzzing all over the place. It was unbelievable and up in a tree. And she told me that they she could see the queen on the outside of the swarm.

Jimmy May: Outside. Yeah. Well, it

Jeff Johnson: crawling around, and she was able to knock it and capture it. She had, like, this looked like a a hair comb kind of thing.

Jimmy May: Yeah. Clip, and you you you clip her. Yep.

Jeff Johnson: And they caught it and then put it in another hive, and then they all went there. Have you done that before?

Jimmy May: Yep. Yeah. Usually, I don’t like, there’s two ways to do it, but if there’s a big ball on the on the hive, on the swarm, I’ll just, like, shake the branch and drop it in a box and hope I get to the queen. I normally don’t, like, sort through. The other way is, like, you could, like, you have, like, a, like, a a shop vac and you suck all the bees into it, then you dump them out on your floor and you find the queen. You clip the queen, put her in the box, and they’re all going.

Jeff Johnson: Well, she was surprised that she was able to see it. She said it was just one of those things. So she’s got her clip and grabbed it, and she said it was super easy.

Jimmy May: Yeah.

Jeff Johnson: But so now she’s doubled her honey production, I guess. I don’t know.

Jimmy May: Yeah. So, I mean, one hive will make, like, between twenty and forty pounds of honey. And so we make a lot of our own food at this house. So, you know, all of our stuff is sweetened by homegrown honey. I got chickens. I’ve got garden. I’ve I spearfish. I hunt. So, like, we my grocery bill is, like, shampoo and, you know, like, toothpaste stuff I can’t make. Yeah. That’s it.

Jeff Johnson: Drew is like that too. After talking to Drew and Ariel, they’re pretty

Jimmy May: Yeah. Yeah. They they are a lot like that. He’s still building his stuff up. He I mean, he’s in Hawaii. He’s a great place to go to do that. But, yeah, mine’s pretty established. I don’t I don’t have to buy much.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Well, Jimmy, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. What a treat it was to get to meet you in February. And, you gave a powerful presentation to our group, and a lot of people were talking afterwards about how much they enjoyed hearing you and Drew get up there and talk about beyond the brotherhood. Can you can you share with our listeners, a little bit about yourself? Like, I’m curious where you’re located right now, family, a little bit of the background, whatever you wanna share with us.

Jimmy May: Yeah. Sure. I grew up in Texas, and, that’s where I’m still a Texan. You know? I’m living in California right now because I just retired from military. I did I did, I went to I enlisted in the Navy right after high school. And then after a year of that, I got a scholarship to go to to college anywhere I wanna go. So I went to Texas A and M. And then four and a half short years five and a half short years later, I had a degree, a four year degree. And I went but I didn’t wanna go back to nuclear power, so I went into, seal the seal teams. I did twenty three years in the seal teams. Wow. And then, I’ve been see, I did six deployments, all wartime. I’ve got four deployments to HVAC, one to Yemen, One to Afghanistan, and then I have another one that’s a weird just all over the all over The Middle East. Mhmm. Let’s see. Then after that, towards the end of my career, I had to spend a lot of time rehabbing because I was broken. Like, my body was destroyed. And so we had to, like I had I got metal rods connecting my hips to my legs now because, my hips had to be replaced. And then I’ve got a still got a one limb rotator cuff, gotta rebuild my nose. But they did a lot of work. The whole last two years was just work. And then when I got out, I wasn’t sure what to do. Luckily, I found, an amazing mentor in Steve Catena, who’s the CEO of pray.com. Mhmm. And that guy has just been an amazing mentor to me, helped me, you know, kinda get out. I do a lot of public speaking now. I’ve got a, a for profit business called Navy Executive Services where I screen and select Navy Seal Secure I’m sorry, where I do high end safe executive events. So, like, you wanna jump out of a plane, you wanna blow something up, you wanna learn how to do j turns and pit maneuvers, you wanna swim with sharks, whatever you want. So I’ve done all these things with people. Whatever they wanna do, I set it up, make sure it’s safe, and, they kinda clear bucket list items. That’s my how I make my money. And then I have a nonprofit called Beyond the Brotherhood where we screen and select Navy SEALs of character for the next mission. Because within four months of my retirement, four of my bros died by their own hands. And I was like, what is happening? I thought we were through this. So that’s why we we open that up.

Jeff Johnson: That was a that was a story that you told to our group back in February that was that was bone chilling.

Jimmy May: That’s a common occurrence with the CLT members. Suicide is really prevalent among our veterans, but especially among our special operations veterans. And, you know, the teams we have, we take really stellar individuals, and then we just put them in these really bad situations, and we expect them to figure a way out, and they can most of the time. But it takes toll on their on, you know, their mental their mental fitness, I guess, when we put in, especially a lot of the explosions, a lot of the concussions. I mean, you know, I fired tons of rockets. I’ve been around a lot of blasts, and we have guys with a lot of blast injuries and stuff. And it just kinda it’s they don’t I haven’t seen the statistics broken out, but there’s not that many SEALs, and a lot of guys have killed themselves. Everyone you talk to any SEAL, he knows someone’s killed himself. Everyone knows. Somebody that’s done that.

Jeff Johnson: And is it because they’ve seen combat, or is it just the rigors of the program or the intensity and then shutting that off?

Jimmy May: Well, I was trying to figure it out because when I saw the guys that died were good guys. You know? I mean, two of them are really good friends of mine. Mike Day was a former member a former neighbor of mine, and he was he was shot 27 times in Iraq. If somehow he came to, woke up, the team had to pull back seven times? 27 times. I think 17 hit his body, the rest hit his plates. They thought the bad guys thought he was dead, so they were trying to shoot the other guys. Turns out he wasn’t. His his shooting hand was shot up, so he took his other hand and killed those guys and then called into this. But he’s like, hey. Don’t drop the building. I’m I’m still in here. Come get me. Then he comes back home and, you know, finishes the job himself. He killed himself, really sad. That hit me hard. And then, and then a really good friend of mine, Bobby Ramirez, he was served with me. We did deployment together in Afghanistan. Solid guy, father of four. He killed himself, two days after my retirement. So he was in my my retirement ceremony. We were hanging out all weekend. Monday, he killed himself, and I was just it was a lot.

Jeff Johnson: So Yeah. Well, praise God that you’re you’ve developed beyond the brotherhood now to address that situation. Are you having success with that program?

Jimmy May: Yeah. I I didn’t know anything about a five zero one c three. I just started it. Mhmm. So we just did it. And, you know, I had to learn a lot. The learning curve was steep. My plan was to take in three to five guys, and I was trying to figure out let’s who are the most at risk guys, and it I figured it out that in my mind, it’s the the highest quality guys we have, the best trip. We put those guys in the worst situations over and over. Those are the guys that are killing themselves. The guy that did one pump and got in trouble, and that guy’s gonna live forever. The dudes that, like, we put in the bad situations over and over, they’re the ones who are killing themselves. So I I screen and select for character. The screening process starts with, like, they have to submit, a list of one boss, one peer, and three subordinates. And I call those people and figure out it’s a small community. Most of them, I know these guys anyway. Mhmm. But, you know, as long as they have high character, we bring them in, and then we give them we try and give them what they need, which initially, we do a personality assessment because the guys don’t know what they wanna do. They’ve been carrying a gun their whole life, and they think they have to do that. But they’re really sharp guys, and I can’t impress upon you enough that these are, you know, the best and the brightest we have in our society that just chose to serve. And now twenty years later, their bodies are destroyed. And I I want to try and put them up to where they belong in society because these are, like, very high achievers. So then after they do that personality assessment, they get to sit down with the guy who did it, who wrote it, and they figure out where they might fit in. And then if they’re broken like a lot of us were, you know, I talked about my health issues. I was on all the NSAIDs, nonsteroidal anti inflammatories. I was in all the opiates, and I had to I had to get off those. And so we have Everspan Life as a company that they will take your goals and get you where you wanna be. And I told the doc, I wanna get off all these things. I can’t walk without them. You know? Like, I and it what sucks is that you gotta take more and more because it starts you take one and starts feeling like decaf, then you’re taking two, and pretty soon you’re on all these pills. And, the VA just pumps pills to guys. So I try to get them off everything. We try to get them natural and healthy if they need it. If they need time with their family, we’ll give them some of that because we’ve been gone three hundred days a year for however long we’ve been doing this. And then, we start pairing them up with our partners. We pair them up with a mentor. We figure out which industry they wanna go into. We have, great partners in Morgan Benjamin who they prep their resumes, get in their headshots so they can advertise these guys. And, you know, I meant to take three to five. First year, we took in ’22. Wow. Second year, we took in 23. And then, this is our third year. We’re closed for admission right now because I have to build the coffers up. I it’s a business. Right? I Yeah. Have I’ve grown the staff a little bit to handle it, but I can’t I can’t bring people in and not have anything to give them. So we just had a major fundraiser. We’ll see what kind of money we got out of that, and I’ll open back up and start bringing people in this year. But it’s been an overwhelming response. I’ve got 13 guys in the wings right now, fully screened. I just can’t bring them in yet till I can, give them the services. So, you know, it’s, as the donations come in, then we open up and bring the guys in.

Jeff Johnson: Man, praise God. How many could how big of a class could you have?

Jimmy May: Well, we our biggest was 23, but we only been at this for three years. This is our third year. And among our fellows, we have zero suicides.

Jeff Johnson: So Wow.

Jimmy May: We take most at risk guys, the most combat experienced guys, and, it’s it’s been it’s been a meaningful thing for me.

Jeff Johnson: Well, if you don’t mind, Jimmy, I’d love to put all that information on our show notes for the show where people could contribute to Beyond the Brotherhood and do all that sort of thing to support what you’re doing. That’s fantastic.

Jimmy May: Yeah. We got a website, beyondthebrotherhood.org, and, it’s it’s been a powerful thing for me. It’s it’s it’s my main passion. I’m trying to, like, spin it off because we’re I’m running two businesses, and I’m chairman of the board and CEO at PTV, and it’s too much. So well, if you don’t know, we hired Drew up as executive director. So he stepped up into that. And, you know, I’m really excited to see where, you know, he can lead that organization.

Jeff Johnson: What a wonderful move. That’s great. Congratulations on that, Jimmy.

Jimmy May: Yeah. You’ve been a blessing.

Jeff Johnson: Well, there’s so much I wanna talk to you about, and I wanna be conscientious of time here. Jimmy, I know you’re a businessman busy man, so I don’t wanna take up too much of your time. Can we go back to, joining the Navy SEALs? Maybe I’ll start right there if you don’t mind. I’m curious. Our the point of this podcast is to come down on the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done, which I’m gonna ask you here in a minute, but I wanna pepper it leading up to it with a with a couple other questions about the topic of courage. I’m curious. You showed a video at the conference of rows and rows and rows of guys in their fatigues coming in marching, doing all that kind of stuff at the beginning. And you pointed out that this is the beginning of the SEAL class. And then at the end, it was a much diminished class, a much smaller group of people.

Jimmy May: Yeah. That class started with 212. They finished with 16.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Is that typical?

Jimmy May: It’s very typical. Yeah. That’s not that’s not out of the ordinary.

Jeff Johnson: Can you tell who’s gonna make it and who’s not gonna make it?

Jimmy May: Absolutely not. So as as instructors, just like you can’t have the referees betting on NFL football games, you know, our instructors are not allowed to, like, say who they think is gonna make it. But I’m not gonna say it doesn’t happen. And because we’re trying to figure out, okay. Is there something we can do to make the like, bring in the right people from the beginning? So we would I’ll write down five names of people we were sure we’re gonna make it and then five names of people we were sure we’re not gonna make. No correlation to success.

Jeff Johnson: Really?

Jimmy May: None at all. No. I mean, the biggest correlation is if he’s a legacy guy, which means his dad was a seal or his brother was a seal or something, those guys have a better success rate. The enable academy guys have a better success rate because they’ve just been in that culture, and they have a seal there on staff that helps screen them. But other than that, there’s really no we can’t find what it is. Oddly enough, guys, we found a common strain, guys that have a strong relationship with their mother. I was like, how do we figure that out? I don’t know. That’s a correlation. Yeah. I’m tired of my mom. She’s awesome.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. That’s well, that’s wonderful. Mother’s Day was just yesterday. So wow. What? Yeah. What a statistic. Okay. So along those lines then, you obviously migrated the program with success. Did your definition of courage change from the day you started your Navy SEAL SEAL endeavor to the time you graduated?

Jimmy May: Absolutely. Yes.

Jeff Johnson: I’m curious to know what that is.

Jimmy May: Well, I think before, I always thought about it. It would be like I was a kid. You know? I was young. I’m standing up in front of somebody and, you know, returning fire in a gunfight, you know, which does take courage. You know? Like, when you got rounds coming at you, you have to get up and you don’t just spray and pray. You know? You get behind that weapon, and there’s a chance you can get hit. I did get hit once. You know? But I think that moral courage is a stronger thing. You know? And, you know, Drew is really does exemplify that. He really does, sometimes to a fault. I’m like, you know, we don’t gotta die on this hill, Drew. You know? And he’s he’s there fighting away. But, yeah, I think moral courage means more to me now, than physical courage.

Jeff Johnson: Did you see that on the battlefield?

Jimmy May: I have.

Jeff Johnson: That demonstrated?

Jimmy May: Yeah. Absolutely. And you know what? I can actually respect, courage in the in the enemy as well. Early in your career, they try to kinda dehumanize the enemy, and I think that’s because we’re not made to kill each other. Like, the there’s a natural aversion within the human genome that makes us not wanna kill each other. And so to combat that, a lot of your, like, basic like, you know, your 18, 19 year old kids, they dehumanize the enemy. Like, you know, they called the Germans Krauts back in the day, or they had derogatory name for the Japanese that they fought. You know? They just find a way to dehumanize it so that you’re not don’t feel like you’re killing other humans. But as I got older, it became a it was a professional thing. It was like, but this isn’t a personal thing. This is you know, here’s my rules of engagement. Here’s what they’re doing. Here’s my escalation of force procedures. If I do what I’m supposed to do and they do what they supposed to do, I give them what they deserve and nothing less. If they deserve or nothing more. If they deserve to get killed, that’s what they get. If they deserve to just get a muzzle strike, that’s what they get. So it became more of a professional exchange. But then even more than that, eventually, it became I could respect the enemy that was fighting me through close air support. I’m like, wow. These guys are getting bomb drop on them with planes, and they’re still coming at me. You know? I was like, wow. These guys, they really believe in what it is they’re fighting for. You know? And that and then I started to think these guys are more like I am than the people who are sending me here. Mhmm. No. It doesn’t mean I have I’m I mean, I’m gonna give them any less or show them any quarter if they don’t deserve it. But, it is it does there’s a level of respect there now that I I didn’t have, and it took, you know, five, six deployments to get there.

Jeff Johnson: Okay. Well, that was my question is how long did that take? Five or six deployments, and then you’re you’re practicing empathy alongside of doing your job. So you’re you’re empathetic to the person on the other side

Jimmy May: Yep.

Jeff Johnson: But you’re still doing a job. So if this is what needs to be done, this is what needs to be done, and you can you can, make those determinations without without any trouble.

Jimmy May: Yeah. It’s no hesitation. You can’t hesitate. I mean, if I hesitate on a on a ground a shot I should take, the guys next to me are gonna die. If I don’t call in I’ve had, you know, commanders not wanna drop a bomb or I wanna drop it. And, you know, and then there’s this thing on the ground force commander where you turn in your initials. You’re like, hey. My name is my initials are JPM. Drop that bomb now, and then they have to drop it. But then when you go back, you’re you’re gonna be popping tall for that because the commander said no, and you said yes. You will you’ll never be able to, like, explain why you had that bomb called in. Why you did that? Wow.

Jeff Johnson: So I know that you’ve taught in your career combat ethics. Maybe we’re talking about the same thing here, but I’m curious. What’s the relationship with courage to combat ethics?

Jimmy May: So I I still I still teach combat leadership in the SEAL teams. I taught combat ethics to the navy JAG course for a while. I’ve done that a couple times. No. That’s not a regular thing I do anymore. But, you know, you have to be able to stand up to people who you and then take a position that might not be what they expect from you. You know? And one time we had, when I was I was working with SEAL team five at the time, and I was I was SEAL team three guy, but SEAL team three at home. I speak Arabic, so they didn’t have an interpreter. I’m like, hey. I’ll stay a couple months, and he also appointment, and we’ll just just so you could talk to your partner for us. You know? It’s the right thing to do. So I stayed a couple months extra with them, and we, we did an op where we took down this house, sniper overwatch, where basically you climb up you insert at night, you climb up high. And then as the army is doing a clearance, the bad guys attack them. We shoot the bad guys. They’ll start attacking the the the guys who are on our team. Anyway, there’s a guy in there. I did interrogation on the guy, and he, he told me about a house. And the house had he he’s like, hey. There’s five Syrians in there with body armor. And I’m like, woah. Okay. That sounds like our kind of mission. So when we get back, we’re doing, we’re looking at this stuff the guys pulled off Target, and they found all sorts of, like, improvised explosive device making materials. They felt I didn’t know. I didn’t because I didn’t I wasn’t on the this the search team. So they found, like, remote controlled doorbells. Like, why do you got 20 remote controlled doorbells at your house? Right? You only got two doors. The reason why is because they use them to set off explosives, you know, and a bunch of other stuff. So, anyway, when they told me that, I I turned in the intel, and they’re like, yeah. You guys go get them tomorrow. I’m like, cool. We’ll go hit those Syrians with body armor. We’ll get them. So we’re getting ready for this off, and the guy had told me it was at the old laundromat. But you’re not supposed to show him the battle map, but I showed him a map anyway because I was trying to figure out where it was. And he couldn’t read the map. Right? So he told me the wrong house. There was a clearance going on, so I sent the Iraqis to it. They went there. There was nothing there. And, as I drilled into my notes, he said the old laundromat. And I’m like, oh, so I asked around. The old laundromat was an abandoned house, and I found it. I’m like, oh, this is the house. Let’s go hit it. So we’re gonna hit it. It gets approved. We’re getting ready to go on the op, and I got this. When I started learning all the stuff they found on Target, I’m like, wait. So that guy was a bad guy? And he just told me this inform it wasn’t like I beat him up or anything. He just gave me this information. So I started getting this real bad feeling. But, you know, your reputation in the teams is important. I didn’t want to come across as a coward. You know what I mean? But I really felt bad about this op, and I went and told the boss when I came in. I’m sorry. You know I’ll go wherever you want me to, but I I got a bad feeling about this. He was like, what do you wanna do? I’m like, let’s hit the house next door and ask the neighbors what’s going on. So we did that. We went and we hit the house. I got talked to neighbors. I’m like, hey. What’s going with that house next door? They’re like, don’t go in. It’s rigged to blow. So it was a house born ID. That guy gave me information for us to go in there, and I remember I was just really I was like, that guy. And then I’ll do the backside of this op. I didn’t know we’re we were gonna drop the you have to blow the house up because you can’t go in there. You gotta blow it up. So there’s a guided missile long range, g m l r. We call them Gimglers. But they’re launched from Fallujah in Ramadi, and I was like, yeah. Go ahead and drop it. So my JTAC calls in. He’s like, yeah. Go ahead and drop it. They’re like, right after that, we already premenstruated the quarter in the coordinates. One minute forty seven seconds to impact. I’m like, what? We can’t be here when two two hundred pound work hits. So when we were trying to get the family out of there and I remember they were there’s some grandma upstairs was giving the guys fits. She was not she was, like, yelling at him and stuff, and they’re trying to, like, get the interpreter up here. So I come running up there, and, man, she ran at me like a banshee, and I I just clocked her with my elbow. Just the first thing again, boom, out cold. And the guy the guys were like, you carry her. And so I’m dragging this lady toes in the sand, and the guys were all like, we’re sure glad you learned Arabic.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. I I just knocked her out. But Oh my goodness. The things that the things that you must have seen, Jimmy, when when you think about courage, and I don’t you know, twenty two years in the SEAL teams is a long career, so that encompasses a lot. And I don’t mean to pigeonhole these these questions about courage just to that, you know, because there’s you beforehand and and what you’re doing now. But, who do you admire that has great courage? If you think of somebody that’s courageous, who do you think of?

Jimmy May: I think of a couple people. I mean, I think, my friend Jocko is, he’s got a pretty famous podcast. He’s a pretty courageous guy. I definitely think about him. There’s a lot of people. I I don’t wanna waste this this, this time. You know? Steve got a bunch. Somebody Steve Catina is somebody. He’s CEO of pray.com. He’s got a lot of moral courage, and he stood up to me and told me things I didn’t wanna hear. You know? And he’s been a mentor. I’m just trying to pick a good one because there’s a lot. There’s a lot.

Jeff Johnson: I’m at well, let me ask you. Let me let me jump to the question, Jimmy. Jimmy Mae, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?

Jimmy May: I think the most courageous thing I’ve ever had to do, and this is hard. It’s not gonna be what you think it is. So my best friend was killed on 08/06/2011. I got this whole tattoo all about, you know, him with one arm. And I just got back from deployment, and I had to get a surgery, but they called me into the command at, like, midnight. I’ve been home for two days. My kids were visiting me. And, I’m like, hey. I I gotta go to work. And they’re like, for what? I’m like, oh, no. So I we’re driving into work, and I got there. I found out my friend had been killed, and I was it was on extortion one seven, which was a helicopter got shot down over in Afghanistan. And they were telling me, you need to go you make notification of parents. But the thing is you wanna beat the media. You don’t want your parents the guy’s parents to find out from the media. So we’re I’m on a plane at 6AM flying up to into Minneapolis, and I gotta drive down to, you know, Hoedunk, Iowa. And I’m driving down there. I get there, and I know his parents, you know, and his dad sees me, and George was like, I’ve been expecting you. I’m like, yes, sir. I told him, you know, to tell his parents and, of course, that that’s that’s not the courageous thing. Of course, I’m gonna do that. It’s my honor to do that. But I had to get a surgery I talked about, so I had to fly back home. And I had got my surgery. I get back and, you know, this the command I was at had some really good support personnel. So these folks, they plan the whole funeral. Rockford, Iowa has 700 people in it. We got 1,500 people at this funeral. Plus we’ve got, like, that church that comes in and protests at funeral at funerals. They used to do that at veterans. And we have the bikers that came in and rev their bikes. You can’t it was just mayhem. And so they planned this whole thing out. So I land, and I remember I’m, like, looking through the spreadsheet about, okay, what is it? Who’s what what what am I doing here? I assume I’m speaking. I know I’m a pallbearer because, it’s in it’s in your notes. Before you deploy in the sales teams, you’d have to fill out 24 pages. What songs are at your funeral? You know, who do you want at your funeral? Who don’t you want at your funeral? And my buddy, my best friend, John Tumbles, said he was a good looking dude. We had a whole section for his girlfriends that we made. We put them all in the same section. It was pretty funny. We’d be like, oh, where’s your girlfriend? Like, of course you are. Go with the other one. Anyway, so do we we we get into this this I’ve gone going through this whole plan, and I’m assuming I’m I’m probably speaking at the funeral or something. As I go, I’m not speaking. I’m not a pallbearer. I’m not I’m not showing his mom to her seat or giving her a flag, and I really get really upset. I get mad. I was like, who are these people that plan this stupid this is this is my best friend. You know, I live with them off and on for ten years. I was just getting mad. I’m like, I should be carrying the casket. I should be and about my third or fourth eye, I got really embarrassed, and I was really ashamed. And the reason why is because I wasn’t make it was about me. It was about me being recognized for who I was in his life. That’s what I was more concerned about. My job was handling the DVs. So the distinguished visitors I’m the senior ranking of my friends. It makes sense. So I had to, like, hang out with the governor’s wife and, you know, the other important people and show them around. And the people that carried the the coffin didn’t drop it. Mom found her seat and got her flag. The guy that spoke did a better job than I would’ve. And you know what? I’m not remembered as the jerk who had to get up and make it all about myself. So that was a really hard pill to swallow because I was really angry. But I shut my mouth, and I did my job. And, I think that I’m really grateful, in that time that I I had that that that calling right before, right before I opened my mouth and made a scene.

Jeff Johnson: That’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done. That’s fantastic, Jimmy. Yeah. Wow. You realize that in the moment?

Jimmy May: It hit me. I I was about to go yell at somebody, and then I just stopped. And I was like, what’s wrong with me? What am I doing?

Jeff Johnson: How did that change you after that experience?

Jimmy May: Well, his name was JT, and I think that was JT’s parting gift to me was, you know, sometimes you need to go over yourself. And I think that humility is a very important aspect of, what I consider my leadership. I hope that I that I am able to exhibit that in, you know, who I am, but I know I don’t always. But I think that that was a a wake up call to me from JT.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. How does how does humility relate to courage? That’s powerful. You know, that you’re you’re saying this, Jimmy, and the the first time I met you was in Arizona in February, and it was such a pleasure. I had known Drew because I’d talked to him a little bit and had him on the podcast. But that was the first chance that I had to meet you. And I and I recognize I sent something, especially through the Beyond the Brotherhood when you were making that presentation, that was something that was selfless. You know, you can’t fake that, and you just notice it. So what you’re describing to me is the most courageous thing. I mean, I’m sorry you had to go through all that with the loss of your best friend and everything, but and I certainly know where Rockford, Iowa is. I’m talking to you from Des Moines right now. So I’m very sorry.

Jimmy May: Yeah, man.

Jeff Johnson: But, but, yeah, you have that air of selflessness. So how does humility relate to courage?

Jimmy May: Well, I think humility is the first step in, I mean, number one, leading. Because Mhmm. I found that most of the time someone has a better idea than me, and it’s just a matter of, you know, me not feeling like I need to get credit for the idea. I need to, like you need to find that person who had that idea and then be able you can’t even hear people’s other ideas if you’re already stuck on your own. You know? And how does it relate to courage? You know? It it it takes courage to be humble because you’re gonna feel slighted sometimes. You’re gonna feel like you’re not giving your due. That’s how I was. You know? And, I mean, sometimes I still feel that way. You know? Sometimes I still wanna be recognized for something, and, I try not to be that way. But I’m human. So sometimes I sometimes I I don’t meet that that, that goal of mine.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Thank you for the honest answer. I mean, I think I think everybody’s a little bit like that, Jimmy, but the ones that you gotta worry about are the ones that don’t recognize it and don’t say it. You know, sometimes I do wanna put myself first a little bit, or I think about myself a little too much. We’re all like that. What kind of courage does it take to migrate from military service to civilian life?

Jimmy May: Well, that’s what we do.

Jeff Johnson: Think that would be hard to dial it down.

Jimmy May: Yeah. But maybe you haven’t done that. Maybe you’ve kept it dialed up.

Jeff Johnson: I haven’t slowed down. That’s for sure. I mean, I’m so busy right now. It’s crazy. We talked about it at the beginning of this.

Jimmy May: Yeah. It takes so, you know, a lot of these guys, I did I was a SEAL for twenty two, twenty three years. Like, that’s all I knew. And a lot of these guys, you know, you’re, you know, you’re in your mid forties. Your body’s kinda destroyed. You know, you’ve got a stale degree. Do you wanna go back to college? You know? You gotta kinda get back on the horse and get working again. So my degree from A and M was, you know, oh, 20 years old, 22 years old. I don’t know most of those people anymore, and, I don’t have any skills in the civilian world. So I went back to I went back to school. I went back, to Harvard, and I got my I went to Harvard Business School, and I got, like, fresh network, good people. And then, you know, after that, I started working on on what my next steps were. I didn’t know what they were gonna be. And so you talk about the question initially was how does how what kind of courage does it take to try and to get into the the next step? So I end up doing a job for Steve Bettina. And he, asked me he’s like, hey. I wanna pay you. I’m like, you can’t pay me. And I wasn’t gonna do the job because I I’m I’m not a that wasn’t my I was a active duty seal when he asked me to do it. And I’m like, I actually said no. And he goes, well, Mark Hawes said you might. I’m like, Mark Hawes, who is a training buddy of mine. I’m like, Mark said I’ll do it. I’ll probably do it. That’s fine. So I went and did it. And, he’s like, we gotta pay you. I’m like, you can’t pay me. I was like, I I didn’t ask permission to do this. This is just I’m just doing it. He’s like, well, like, what can we do? And I said, you know what? I need a mentor. Would you be a mentor? That’s what I need. I’m getting out in about three or four years. I just I don’t know. I need someone to help me. And so I think that transition, that courage to ask somebody, Steve’s younger than I am. Absolutely. Yeah. Younger than me. Ask for help. You know what? He’s just a very clairvoyant man. And that guy, he has been he stepped up in spades. I talked to him every day, every single day. And it’s was just, like, since 2015. You know? It’s ten years later. Every single day, I’m getting texts, phone calls, and, you know, he doesn’t always tell me what I wanna hear, but he always tells me what I need to hear. So, you know, having the courage to to know that you need some guidance and you need a mentor, I think that’s the most important thing to my transition. I can’t speak to everyone’s transition. But to me, I needed to, you know, ask somebody for help, and, man, he delivered. I mean, all those guys at pray.com, you know, Matt Potter and, you know, you know, Ryan and Mike Lynn. Those guys have stepped up to me for me in spades. There’s nothing that I have asked that they haven’t come back in, you know, with, like, tons of answers. And I try to, like, do what I can for them, but I don’t think that I pay them near what they pay me.

Jeff Johnson: Wow. The Bible says wise men seek counsel. That’s exactly it, Jimmy. You know, reaching out and asking for help, and I see a whole lot of courage there. Gosh. How does fear and courage relate to each other? Do they coexist?

Jimmy May: Well, yeah. I mean, if you’re not you’re never you’re not afraid of anything, you’re just dumb. Like, fear is put in you because there are there there’s things that are dangerous. And now, you know, with with fear, I tend to call it risk. Fear is an emotion. Risk is more something that you can manage. And so when you look at risk clear eyed, you can mitigate it and then make a clear decision. Like, okay. We’re gonna jump out of a plane. Alright. I’ve never driven out of a plane before. So there’s a guy with me that knows how to do it. Did we take all the preparation steps? Did I go through all of the the the different mishaps that could happen? Am I ready for those things? Okay. So we mitigated those. Then I’ve got a guy jumping with me to make sure I don’t do anything stupid, and he’s super good. And so now we’ve taken all those those steps to mitigate it. Now what’s the remainder of the risk? That remainder of the risk is is always gonna be there. Otherwise, you just stay in your house. Right? So when you look at it, how you mitigate it so so I don’t look at fear. I look at it as risk because risk can be mitigated. And once it’s mitigated, is the remaining risk worth what you’re about to do? Mhmm. But, like, for us, the riskiest ops will send us on our hostage rescue ops. And what they’re telling us is that that life of that person is worth more than your guys. That’s how we do hostage rescue. So that’s the riskiest thing we do, and that and that’s that’s the calculus. Like, you’re telling me that person is worth more. So, you know, when they ask us to go do something like that, I have to look out, like, okay. How important is this person? Can you tell me? Like because I’m about to risk. The the the tactics we do in hostage rescue are completely different. Like, we’re running into rooms that are uncleared and just, like, shooting on the move, trying to get to that person as fast as we can before they kill him. And then once that person gets we could get them, we cover them up with our with our bodies, and then we escort them out so that, you know, so that they can live. And so when they when they send us in, they’ve made that choice on the risk. Like, hey. That person’s worth more than you.

Jeff Johnson: What a difficult thing to contemplate. Or maybe it’s not, Jimmy. I don’t know.

Jimmy May: That would Just is.

Jeff Johnson: Because that’s another biblical precept, you know, that somebody would lay down their life for somebody else, but you’re doing that in the man have greater love hath no man than a man lay down his life for his friends. Yeah.

Jimmy May: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It makes me think of Mikey Mansour. You know what? That that he jumped on a grenade and probably saved all of us because I know he saved the guys next to him. I was in the next house, and we were fighting our way down the street. We were this is the

Jeff Johnson: Where was that?

Jimmy May: Ramadi. Ramadi. Yeah. Ramadi, Iraq. And, you know, we were in a sniper overwatch, and that grenade landed on that roof. And, you know, there’s a six second fuse on a grenade. So when the the pipe threw it on the roof, so that’s, like, what, like, you know, three or four seconds where it landed. Mikey saw it. We got, like, two seconds left. There was a stairwell right behind him. He could have jumped down that stairwell and saved himself, and not a single person would have been like, you’re a coward. Not a single you’d been like, alright. I’m glad you’re still alive. But instead, he jumped down and grabbed that grenade. He had no time to think. And when he did, it blasted him up and killed him. And the guys next to him, they caught just a little bit. They caught in their feet because they were, like, they were shooting the other direction. And then the guy at the back, he caught a little bit. One guy named Benny, hit him in the shin. What what I mean? And then the calf. So then they call us like, hey. Mikey’s down hard. We got two guys. We’re not gonna make it. So, you know, we had the the four of us. We had a a bunch of Iraqis in the house with us, our partner force, who are our team, and we’re trying to get them out. Man, they’re like, Jimmy, get the Iraqis out because I can speak. I’m trying to pull these guys out. I’ve got them by, like, the front of his plates. It’s like putting a cat in the bathtub. He ain’t coming to the street. So it was me and the other three seals far our way down there. And about half halfway there, we get pinned down bad by gunfire. I mean, I’m laying behind, like, a 10 inch high pile of gravel that I’m just, like, sucking down just the bullets are pinging off. And I remember I heard this big gun light off, like, and I was like, but I couldn’t hear the bullets hitting us anymore. Like, they’re not hitting around us, but I stuck up. And, Benny had grabbed Mikey’s gun, the big eight and was just laying it down like a man. And I remember under that covering fire, that’s how we got to the house. And that’s why I say I think Mikey saved all of us because had Mikey not eaten that grenade and everybody got hit, that that covering fire wouldn’t happen. Wow. So yeah. What courage? What That verse that verse is what’s something that we always think about with Mikey is greater man hath no greater love hath no man than a man laid on his life for his friends.

Jeff Johnson: How does how does faith inform your courage, Jimmy?

Jimmy May: Man, this is such a good timely question because I for most of my career, I lost my faith. I didn’t have any of it. I was

Jeff Johnson: You had it you had it when you were younger and lost it? Or

Jimmy May: Yep. I grew up with it in the in the home, but I was always annoyed having to go to church. I didn’t wanna I didn’t pay attention. And then when I got in the teams, you know, I really lost it, probably after I got shot because I remember I got shot, and then I was, like, five mile away out of there. And I’m like, man, ain’t no one’s gonna save me. I save myself. I was like, you know, and I just completely lost my faith. And I lived a I mean, you know, they call me Jimmy Whiskers and the team. I got nine lives. You know? Don’t stand next to me in a gunfight. You know? I I was always lucky, but, you know, I just completely lost it. And then over the last couple years, I think no. I’m also praying me for for me for twenty five years. And, I’m actually gonna get rebaptized this summer. Like, I’ve just decided to. Because I’m like, no. I got baptized when I was a kid when I was, like, seven, but it didn’t mean anything to me, and it means something to me now. So I was like, I’m just gonna do it again. I mean, I don’t

Jeff Johnson: That’s fantastic.

Jimmy May: For it. But, you know, this last year was a hard year, a really hard year. It’s I lost, so beyond the brotherhood was formed, and me and the board didn’t agree with I had a different way I wanted to go. Those are great guys. I’m not here to say anything bad about them. Please don’t give me Great people. You know, still mentors to me and, you know, friends. But I just had a different vision. I, you know, they had it in a way I didn’t want it to be. And so they ended up resigning. They all resigned and gave me everything. They’re like, here. You take it, Jimmy. You you wanna do it. We see how much momentum, how much this means to you. You take it. And they step down. And I was like, these are my friends. What’s going on? Like, what am I doing? And then it just hit me. I was like, no. This is this is the right way. I’m going to do it. And I made some phone calls. I rebuilt the board. You know, we never missed a beat. It got right back up on step. You know, Steve Bettina, I asked him. I cashed in all all the favors I could. You know, Jocko Willings on our board. Just some really good people. And then, you know, I I my, I also had my my marriage failed that year, and, I’m not gonna get into the details other than it was not good. I did not Mhmm. Didn’t see it coming. We’ll put it that way. And and it was it was a it was a hard thing. But when God closes one door, he opens another. You know? And now what BTV is, Beyond the Brotherhood, is better. It’s better than I could have imagined it. Like, and he put me in a strain with, you know, Steve Bettina and Matt Potter and good Christian men. And then, you know, I hired Sean Murphy, good Christian man, Drew Forsberg. And it’s like, these are the people that are around me, you know. And I really think it’s just an answer to my mom’s prayers, and then he broke me down through the, you know, loss of my marriage. Broke me down hard and, you know, then now he introduced me. You met Kat. I’ve got an amazing, amazing girlfriend. Just so she’s just wonderful. I mean, better than I could have ever imagined. You know? And I’ve got time with my kids. You know? I don’t get to see my two older ones. You know what it’s like when kids are older. My I got one. She’s about to finish medical school. Super proud of her. Another one, he’s in college. He’s gonna be a vet. So he’s and then the my youngest, the 10 year old little savage, he and I spend a lot of time together. So, you know, I’ve things are going well really well. I’m like, this year, I’m just so excited about what what’s what’s happening in my life. But, it was a it was a it was a tough year last year. And, you know, I I always considered myself, you know, a kind of a Christian, but I think in the last year or two, it’s really hit me hard. Like, wow. Like you know? So now I do a lot of we like, my my girlfriend and I go to the bible every morning. We get up. We’d go through Psalms. My mom does it, jumps in on Tuesdays, and we do we’re doing Matthew right now. And I I don’t know. It’s just a there’s not much better trajectory.

Jeff Johnson: The courage the opportunities for courage never stop, Jimmy. Going through going through Navy Seal training and then going through combat and living your life and post, you know, Navy Seal stuff with Beyond the Brotherhood and life things that happen. You know? All the opportunities are there. So and you’ve certainly taken advantage of that. Why do you think God put you here?

Jimmy May: I don’t know. I think he’s unfolding that for me right now because he’s I’ve done a lot of things in my life that are, like, it would be, I don’t know, interesting to people and but, you know, you gotta put on the full armor of God before you go out into battle. And I’m still I think right now, he’s got me in, like, the training portion. Like, I need to really learn that Bible. I need to really learn what you know, how because the the Christian vision values conference, you know, I went there. I was like, hey. I’m I’m not gonna be able to really talk bible in front of all these people. These people are way they’re adults, and I’m a kid, and I’m still learning. And so I kinda think he’s got me in the learning mindset right now, and, I’m just enjoying learning right now. I I don’t feel like I’m I’ve got the authority to get up and, like you know? But I think he’s got a plan for me. I just don’t know where it is yet.

Jeff Johnson: Yeah. Amen to that. Amen to that. Okay. Very last question, Jimmy, and I’ll let you go. And, again, I’m so grateful for all the time that you’ve taken with us today. I really appreciate it. There’s somebody out there that is faced with a difficult decision, and it might be different from the kind of combat stuff that you faced or even the training that it takes to become a Navy SEAL. But, you know, it’s just as difficult for them, whatever it is that they’re going through. Maybe some of it it’s a it’s a job endeavor or maybe it’s a dramatic change in their life from one thing to the next, or they’re seeing an opportunity in front of them and they’re a little bit hesitant to take advantage of it. How would you encourage people to to call out the courageous person that’s inside of them? What would you tell them to do?

Jimmy May: Well, I think I mean, now I I definitely pray about it if I’m not sure. And what’s cool is, like, when you pray about it, you kinda lay that at God’s feet and, you know, he’s shown me the way every time. I’m not I’m not kidding. He’s shown me the way. You know? When I was, like, not sure what’s going on with my with my marriage, you know, I prayed. He showed me. It was not a soft way either. He slapped me in the face with it, and, it was painful. But you know what? Pain induces growth. So I pray about it, and then I actually don’t worry about it. You know? I mean, it’s I don’t. It’s like, okay. No. I’m gonna find my way out of this, and, God’s gonna lead us. So that’s one thing. Number two, you know what? It just because you lay it on God’s feet doesn’t mean you don’t gotta try and work. It doesn’t mean that. Like, your luck is gonna be directly proportional to how much work you put in. So you yeah, I’m just, like, lay at his feet and then just flop down and wait for things to happen. You know what I mean? You just gotta look for the opportunities he gives you and then pick the ones that you think he needs you to pick. And then when you do it, you go all in. You go all in and, you know, you you can’t I try not to run sideways to him of God because I do sometimes. You know? Sometimes it’s something I just can’t resist doing, and it’s something stupid that and then I always but what’s cool is you can ask for forgiveness, and I’ll give it to you. Mhmm. Yeah. So so I guess let’s put it all into, like, a a meter package. Number one, pray about it. Yeah. Don’t worry. Don’t don’t don’t lay down. You gotta work. But don’t work. Right. It’s it’s good to sit there with it. Don’t worry about it. Now you just work and you do you control what you can control. You know? Everything else, you gotta pray about.

Jeff Johnson: Well said. Well said. Jimmy Mae, man of great courage, thank you so much for being on today.

Jimmy May: Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I I’ve been traveling a lot lately, and, you know, I make these appointments. And when I’m somewhere else, sometimes it pops up different in my calendar. And that’s why I thought this wasn’t coming up, and when you you I felt really bad because I saw a text, I’m like, dang it. I didn’t put it on my calendar. Anyway, I appreciate you giving me the grace. I hate being late. But thank you for having me on here. And the Christian Vision Values Conference was awesome for me. I was really excited to go to it. I learned the speakers were a lot to me. I really enjoyed Yeah. Baseball player and, just a lot of those guys. And the people I met there, I I really enjoyed it. So thank you guys for having me there.

Outro: Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.