Fear, Faith, and Freedom: Doug Gotto’s Journey to Courageous Living

In this episode of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast, host Jeffrey L. Johnson welcomes Doug Gotto, a man whose life journey epitomizes resilience, transformation, and faith. Doug shares his compelling story of overcoming addiction, navigating personal challenges, and rediscovering purpose through service and spirituality. From the pivotal moment of self-realization sparked by his son to his courageous four-and-a-half-year sabbatical from relationships, Doug recounts how he shifted from self-centeredness to a life of giving back. Today, as a mentor and inspiration to many in recovery, Doug embodies the true essence of courage: facing fear, embracing faith, and helping others find the light.

Join us for a heartfelt conversation filled with wisdom, hope, and actionable insights that resonate far beyond recovery.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let’s stay in touch:

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• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another episode of the Courageous Crossroads podcast where we ask that question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? My next guest, Doug Gatto, is somebody that I have been sitting next to and visiting with and listening to and learning from for many years now. And he’s somebody that I’ve been waiting to ask this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Somebody that’s been in my life and has just enriched me. I’ve just watched him. I’ve learned a lot from him. I’ve grown a lot from our relationship, from our friendship over the years. And sometimes the most amazing people are people that are sitting right in front of you. And so I’m super excited for you to hear from my good friend Doug Gatto today who’s going to answer that question. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you’re going to be inspired and encouraged by what he has to say. So, without further ado, here is my dear friend Doug. Doug, it’s good to see you. Thank you for joining us on the Courageous Crossroads podcast today. 

Doug Gotto:
It’s good to be here. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Doug and I know each other for a long time now. How many years have we known each other? 

Doug Gotto:
I moved to Des Moines about 11 and a half years ago, and I met you right out of the gate, so that long. 

Jeff Johnson:
And I know you to be a courageous person. We’ll talk a little bit more as we go through the topic of courage here. But I’m curious. When I asked you to be on this podcast, which I’m so grateful that you said yes to, I told you it was centered around the one topic. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? What was your first. Don’t tell me what it was yet, but what was your reaction to that? When I told you about that. 

Doug Gotto:
My reaction was, I guess, you know, I wanted to listen to your podcast, and so I did. I’ve listened to a bunch of them. I didn’t even know you were doing this. And it’s just really inspired me to, you know, put my story out there. So I said yes. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. 

Doug Gotto:
Absolutely wonderful. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you consider yourself a courageous person? 

Doug Gotto:
I never, you know, for a lot of Years. Never really looked at it that way, but the last few decades, I would. I would lay myself. Yes. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
How do you define that? How do you define courage? 

Doug Gotto:
By the looks of your room here. You’re a huge reader with all the books. I’ve never been a huge reader, but one book that I read years ago by Susan Jeffries was Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And fear probably gripped me and a lot of humans for a lot of our lives for many different reasons. But my definition would probably be facing that fear without flinching. 

Jeff Johnson:
What kind of. Any kind of fear? 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah, I mean, the crux of that whole book was the fear of the unknown is a far greater fear than ever trying something, whether you succeed or not. And that unknown is what keeps a lot of us in limbo. And we just stay trapped in that bondage because we’re sometimes afraid for failure. We’re afraid to be disliked. We’re afraid to. Even for success. Sometimes, you know, the opposite. And so. But just feeling that fear and doing it anyway, no matter what it is. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Do you feel like you are on the other side of fear now? I know I’m jumping into the deep end with you, Doug, but. 

Doug Gotto:
No, no, that’s great. 

Jeff Johnson:
I mean, that we don’t have fear now or that we still have fear, but we address it on a daily basis. Or. 

Doug Gotto:
What’s the. What’s your. The best way, I guess, to answer that question would be, I think, every day of the week, we all get faced with some type of fear. You know, a lot of people call their. Their God, higher power. And so, you know, I had an old boy back home that I says, if you believe in higher power, you best believe in the lower power. And the Bible call it devil or Satan. And so that. That lower power puts these. These thoughts in our head, you know, that. That turn into fear a lot of times. And all those voices that tell us, you can’t do that, why would you want to do that? And. But today I really don’t. I don’t have a whole lot of fears because I don’t listen to those voices anymore. 

Doug Gotto:
I listen to what God tells me, that he’s always there with me and no matter what, I’m going to be okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
Doesn’t. Doesn’t mean they don’t crop up, but if they do, they’re not dominating me anymore like they used to. It may be for 10 minutes, 5 minutes, until I pray about it and turn it over to God. 

Jeff Johnson:
And so I like that very much. So the courage is facing those fears. And the reality is that we have those fears that pop up. That’s what you’re saying all the time. And it goes away when you trust God, when you face that fear and you trust God. So you’re a faithful person big time. 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Is that a necessary element to courage? 

Doug Gotto:
I think it is because I, you know, we have a similar background, the recovery field. And for a lot of years I let those things dominate me. And it was mainly because I didn’t have God in my life. And once I let go and let God started, you know, I was just in church this weekend and the topic was, who’s writing your story? Are you writing your story or are you letting God write your story? And I tried to write my story for a lot of years and it just didn’t work. A lot of people are still trying to write their own story, and so they’re running off that bondage of self like I did for a great many years. And so because I’m on the other side of that now, I think it’s huge to have faith in God, to have that courage. 

Doug Gotto:
I mean, I just, I didn’t have it without it. 

Jeff Johnson:
So tell us, share with our listeners. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Doug Gotto:
Well, to give a little background quickly here. I grew up in little town of Lamars northwest Iowa and youngest of five kids. And, and you know, the way I ended up in recovery, obviously I, I drank a great deal back in my day and out of five kids, four of us ended up in recovery. My father died from alcoholism and because I didn’t have God in my life for a great many years, I drank and I was just running from life. And it wasn’t until I had gotten married and had three kids and our marriage was on the rocks a lot because of my drinking and the things that I was doing. And it was quite a few years into the marriage, a little over 10 years, that she walked out and left with the kids. And I thought, you know, how dare you? 

Doug Gotto:
How dare you leave me? And, and she went over to her sisters. We were living in northwest Iowa. We’d lived around the country, Omaha and Austin, Texas, and came back to Iowa and just constantly running for myself and running from life. And, and so when I had in my mind I was gonna go tell her off, find her at her sister’s house, which I figured she was, tell her off, get a case of beer and hit a bridge going 100 miles an hour, you know, I’ll show you. 

Jeff Johnson:
That was your solution? 

Doug Gotto:
That was my solution. And. And when I went to tell her off, I don’t remember, Jeff, if I was there 5 minutes, 25 minutes, I remember saying, fine, you can have your blankety blank home. And all I remember her saying is, I don’t have a home. I haven’t had a home for years. And none of that registered because I’m, you know, I’m raging out with anger. And I go back downstairs and I’m putting my boots on, and it’s in the middle of the winter and there’s a lot of snow on the ground. And. And like I said, we had three kids. A girl, boy, girl. They were 9, 7 and 6 at the time. And. And I walked out in the kitchen, as I’m putting my boots on, my. My son came out to the kitchen and looked up at me. 

Doug Gotto:
He loved his dad and idolized his dad and said, dad, are you okay? And you may have heard the story before, but when I look back at my son at 7, I didn’t see him standing there. What I saw was me at 7 asking me at 29 years old, what happened to you? And I just had this moment of clarity in this out of body experience that, you know, I was a mess. And so I admitted myself into treatment the next day and I’ve been sober ever since. And I’d like to tell you life’s been good ever since, but it’s. It hasn’t. The marriage didn’t work. I went through another marriage down the road, and it wasn’t until I was about 17 years sober, I just felt like, what is wrong with me? What a piece of crap I am. 

Doug Gotto:
Got married twice, ruined two marriages, what’s wrong with me? Even in sobriety? And I called my son up, who had went to college, we just talked about up in Minnesota to be a youth pastor. And he came down and I smelt my guts for two to three hours and he just listened. And at the end of it, he said, dad, he said, you’re my best friend and I idolize you and all these things. He said, but I’ve always known you’ve had a God shaped hole and you’ve been trying to fill it with everything but God. And one of those things was, you know, you fill in the blank. Work, biking, I love to bike. Women was the big one for me. 

Doug Gotto:
I just, I was in relationships one after another, sometimes in the next one before out of the last one, always thinking I had to have that to fill that hole. And it wasn’t until Years later, I’d moved down to Louisville, Kentucky, chasing what I like to say, another skirt. And while I’m down there, that one didn’t work. Like all the rest didn’t work, you know. And I’m 20 plus years sober at this time. And I was on a committee for a conference were having, and I got to choose the speakers. And I had one of my favorite speakers come in from Florida. And as I picked him up at the airport, were over lunch and talking, and this is leading up to the most courageous thing. As we’re talking, I looked at him and said, peter, you know, this and this is going on. 

Doug Gotto:
I said, what’s wrong with me? And he’s just looking across the table smiling. And I said, well, I don’t see any humor in this, you know. And he said, Doug, you’re. You’re living the life I lived for many years, always trying to fill that hole within next Beautiful Woman or whatever. And I. He said, I said, what’d you do? He said, you need to take a sabbatical. And I said, from dating women being, you know. And he goes, yeah. And I said, for what, like a whole year? And he just smiled and he said, no, for like three years. And I spit my food on the table. And I said, dude, I’ve never been. Not in a relationship more than three days, and you want me to go three years? And he goes, hear me out. 

Doug Gotto:
He said, in that three years time, somebody challenged me to do this, and I did it. In that three years time, I want you to do two things. I said, I’m all ears. He said, I want you to focus your attention on God because you still have your claw marks in everything. You’re still trying to manipulate, control relationships, make them turn out the way you want them to. And he said, you. You may believe in God, but you have turned nothing over to God in your life. You’re still trying to run the show. And the second thing I want you to do is focus your attention on newcomers that walk in the door of recovery to get out of your own self and to be of service to others. And if you can do that for three years. 

Doug Gotto:
He said, if and when God sees fit, that you’re ready for another relationship, he said, number one, you’ll be ready for it for the first time in your life because you’ll be God centered and not Doug centered. And my sponsor today always says, when I’m God centered, you can’t touch me. When I’m Doug centered, you can’t. You can’t help me. And so I’m competitive. I didn’t do it three years, I did it four and a half years. 

Jeff Johnson:
You’ll show him. 

Doug Gotto:
I’ll show him. And in the meantime, I’d moved back to Iowa, to Des Moines, to be closer to family. And that’s what I did. Jeff. I worked hard on getting God centered and known. God more in turn of my will. 

Jeff Johnson:
My life tough for you? 

Doug Gotto:
It was very tough. But, you know, it’s like anything else. I believe if you’re gonna lose weight and you start an exercise program, the more you do it, the easier it becomes and the more you want to do it. And so that was probably, if I look back today, one of the most courageous things I ever did was to take that advice, not only heed his advice, but follow up on it and do it. And it’s completely turned my life around. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow. And you look at that as courage. What was the fear associated with that? 

Doug Gotto:
The fear was me not getting what I always wanted, somebody by my side to make me feel worthy. You know, I often say there’s two things we humans often crave, always crave, is to be loved and to give love. And I still believe that today. But I was taking it to the extreme. I was taking it as it wasn’t really love. It was, you know, look at me, I have somebody on my arm. And in doing a lot of soul searching and work on this, you know, I found out it was a lot of it because of my low self esteem. And I always thought my low self esteem was about how I thought about myself. But what it was really about was what I thought you thought about me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
And when that wasn’t fitting the bill, you know, I had to place something in there to fill that God shaped hole. 

Jeff Johnson:
When did it, when did your. I’m supposing that you had a shift in your thinking in that four and a half years, as that gentleman had told you know, you’re gonna, your mind is gonna change once you focus on God and take the focus off of yourself and be of service and that sort of thing. Was there a place in that four and a half years where you went, oh, I get it. I mean, you said that it gets, the more you do it, the easier it gets. I’m sure that longing, you know, for comfort and for companionship and all that sort of thing doesn’t go away. But was there a place in that continuum where you were like, I get it, I’m seeing something new now. 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah. Out of that four and a half years, about a year and a half, I was still in Louisville before I moved back to here, Iowa and Des Moines. And that three years here in Des Moines really kind of, I could see the change in not only my attitude, but my spirit was starting to be awakened. And I’ve learned over the years, you know, when we have that so called spiritual awakening, it’s more so than a change of thought and change attitude. Life outside doesn’t change. It’s how we perceive it, how we look at it, how we deal with it, how we accept it. And I started seeing that I was getting my claw marks out of that. 

Doug Gotto:
And the more I focused on helping new guys in the program and struggling people, that the less I thought about me and the less I thought about my wants and my needs and my desires and somehow internally I just became happier and I knew God was doing for me what I couldn’t do for myself. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I don’t want to judge myself in this episode. Whether I’m selfish or selfless or that sort of thing. This probably isn’t the place for me to fully vet that. But I can just say, and I think probably most of the people that are listening would feel the same way too, that we would all rather be selfless. You know, we’d rather be emptied out of that and be more focused on the other person. But whether it’s pride or fear or whatever it might be, you know, we do internally look to comfort ourselves. But you did something courageous in being true to yourself for four and a half years and just are being true to God for four and a half years and thinking more about other people. 

Jeff Johnson:
How does that inform you now in relationships, in, you know, your friendships, you’re married, I mean, all of that sort of thing. How does that inform your thinking now? 

Doug Gotto:
I. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you feel selfless? Do you know what I mean? 

Doug Gotto:
Kind of asking that I do. And I don’t say that conceitedly. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
Because I mean, first thing I do waking up in the morning is I’m reaching out to guys I sponsor, you know, guys in recovery. And. And I’m just always. It’s almost like, what can I do to make your day better today? No matter who I run into, I was telling you before the podcast, I retired a couple years ago and I drive a shuttle vehicle two mornings a week for an auto place here in town. And I love it because I go into it every day, I get to meet a lot of people and I just focus on how can I make their Day better. How can I put a smile on their face? What can I do to let them know that God’s out there and God loves him somehow, some way through, you know, my interaction with him? 

Doug Gotto:
And so I just really focus on that today. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I’ve sat in a lot of rooms with you, Doug, and I don’t want to slobber on you too much, but I can tell you when you speak, people listen. And I take note of that because you’re carrying something, you know, that is a powerful thing. And I attribute that to. I don’t know why this quote always comes up whenever. When I think of you, that a man with an experience of God beats a man with an argument every single time. Do you know what I mean? People can make an argument, but if you’ve actually been there and done that, then you really got something to say. And glad to hear you answer the question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Because I think that informs a lot of what I’ve witnessed about people paying attention to you. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, you got a confidence about you. That’s not any kind of pride or arrogance or anything like that. It’s just, I know what I know, and this is true. Do you think that can be handed off to other people? Do you think that can be taught? 

Doug Gotto:
I look back over my life and there was, you know, some people that displayed this throughout my life, and I wondered why I was attracted to them so much. And I know today why I was. Because, you know, they were those selfless people that just love to give, no matter what that giving looked like. Didn’t have to be monetary. It didn’t have to be. It was just always knowing that if they need anything, you’d be there for them type thing. And I don’t know about you, but it’s like, I shouldn’t be here today. You know, I really shouldn’t be here today. I drove. 

Doug Gotto:
I should have not only killed myself all the times I drove and don’t even remember driving and all the things I did back in my using days or killed innocent people or whatever, but I truly feel that’s my calling today, is to give back what God so freely gave me by just seeking. And, you know, my sponsor says those who do, get and those who don’t. And so I keep doing, and somehow I keep getting tenfold in return. And it’s. It’s a good feeling. It just is. Yeah, it is. And you don’t. I say all the time, once I explain it as peace and serenity. Number one, I didn’t know I was lacking it. Number two, I didn’t know I was craving it. And number three, once I get a taste of it, I don’t want to give it up. 

Doug Gotto:
So I keep doing what works. 

Jeff Johnson:
So your four and a half years is an incubator, Learning to be of service to God and to other people and thinking less of yourself and thinking more of others and doing that sort of thing. How do you stay disciplined? Do you go through any spiritual disciplines? You know, Bible reading, prayer, that sort of thing? Is it just working with people? I mean, how do you stay sharp and tuned into that and not fall back into old ways? 

Doug Gotto:
All the above. I pray. I meditate every day. I pray throughout the day. I used to just do the foxhole prayers, get me out of this one, you know, But I do. I really pray throughout the day today, and I meditate on that part. But I spend a lot of time with guys still struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction. Somebody was there for me when I needed it, and I spend a great many hours a week. I sponsor a lot of guys and meet with them on a regular basis. And I just always try to get people fired up to do service work because I know what that did for me. Getting out of that bondage of self, you know, selfishness, self centeredness that we think is root of our troubles. And it’s driven by 100 forms of fear. 

Doug Gotto:
And I don’t want to be that person anymore. You know, I’m not. I didn’t start a business. I didn’t create a big company. I’m not Navy seal like some of your speakers that. I mean, there’s incredible people out there that have felt the fear and did it anyway. I’m just doing it a different way, you know, so I don’t. I don’t pat myself on the back. It’s. It’s a gift that God’s been giving me, and I’m just trying to be true to God and fulfilling that daily. 

Jeff Johnson:
Amen to that. Do you mind if I ask you about this sponsorship stuff? 

Doug Gotto:
Yes. 

Jeff Johnson:
Because I assume that you’ve got people coming to you asking you to help them. So what do you require of them? What does that look like when. Because you’ve given us a picture of the guy that you picked up from the airport wasn’t your sponsor, but he was somebody that was giving you some good guidance and direction. You talked about being sponsored and what other people say. So give our listeners a little bit of a perspective on that. They might not be familiar inside of the recovery rooms of what that looks like. And I’m particularly interested in how you do it. 

Doug Gotto:
Gotcha. I do it the way I was sponsored. I have a little. If they ask me, I say, let’s sit down and have a cup of coffee and talk about it. I don’t just say yes. And secondly, if I kind of. Because I try to keep the balance today. I am married today and very happily married and have been for seven and a half years, and she’s a rock star and allows me to do all this, you know, service work. Excuse me. And so I try to keep the balance. And I have certain days and certain times open throughout the week that I’m able to meet with these guys one one. And when that plate gets full and I have people ask me to sponsor them, which happens often, I just be honest with him and say, right now, I can’t. My plate’s full. 

Doug Gotto:
You know, I’ll be a support for you. I’ll be whatever I can be for you. And then I’ll give them names of guys I sponsor. And a lot of times, a number of those guys are being sponsored by guys I sponsor today. But. But what it looks like. 

Jeff Johnson:
But you got good boundaries on your time, which is a healthy thing. 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Necessary thing. 

Doug Gotto:
Well, it’s. You know, I tell people, you know, there were so many years people didn’t want me around because of my actions, because of my drinking, because of, you know, my arrogance, because of my selfishness. And when that started to flip and. And people would ask, and I just said, yes, yes, yes to everything. And I got overwhelmed. And, you know, I went from black to white, and there was no gray area whatsoever in the middle. And so I’m learning about the gray area today and being a balance not just to the recovery program, but to my wife and to church and all that stuff, Family. And so. But what it looks like to answer your question is I asked, you know, are you willing to go to any links? Are you willing to work some suggested steps? 

Doug Gotto:
Are you willing to meet me every week at my place, at my house, certain same day, same time every week? And we. We go through the big booker of recovery page by page, and we work the steps as they come up until we get through the book. Once we do that, we stop meeting weekly. And then once that spot opens, then gladly start another gentleman through it. Then I just meet them periodically, you know, But I chat with most of them almost every day, and I try to keep it around, you know, Some people that got more time than I do who are very balanced and very. You know, I’ve talked to him about it, and they say, you know, everybody’s got their happy number. Just find your happy number or whatever it is. So I don’t try to go over 20. Right now. 

Doug Gotto:
I’m at 19 guys. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. That’s a lot of guys to be working with, Doug. 

Doug Gotto:
Praise God for that. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s fantastic. 

Doug Gotto:
But the cool part is. 

Jeff Johnson:
And you’ll talk to him every day. 

Doug Gotto:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Short little calls, I would imagine. 

Doug Gotto:
Sometimes. Sometimes longer. Yeah. But the cool part is, you know, we’ve become a family in a community because they. They talk to each other, they do things together. Now they’ve built this bond with our fellowship, which has gotten them out of themselves. And it’s. It’s. There’s no greater feeling, Jeff, than when you’re sitting across the room, and somehow, some way, you see the lights turn on in their eyes, and you see the spirit being awakened in their. Their soul. And somehow, some way, you just know that God put you in that place to be just a small part of that and to witness that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
And it’s the greatest feeling in the world to see that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Doug Gotto:
You know? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. That’s fantastic, Doug. Okay. Come back out of the. I don’t want to say out of the recovery realm, but I want to maybe ask you a broader picture of people that you admire, people that represent courage to you. You’ve defined it wonderfully with facing down the fear. Feel the fear and do it anyway. And who is it that comes to mind when you think about courageous people? 

Doug Gotto:
I mean, there’s. There’s a number of them. A couple of my sisters who, you know, 1. One died in 01 of cancer at 49 years old, but she had just shy 20 years sobriety. She was the one that planted the seed in me back in. Actually back in 1980. And she was an absolute mess. And to watch her, you know, walk through her fears, and so I’ve always admired her. And even on her deathbed, her last words to me were, don’t ever stop carrying the message. And I gave her that promise. My oldest sister, we’re the only two left. Out of five kids today, I’ve lost three siblings, two to cancer, one to other health issues, and. But the other three all died sober. They were the other three all in recovery. 

Doug Gotto:
And my oldest sister has never had an issue, and she’s been the rock of our family. And I’ve always looked up to her because, you know, she Defined the odds because it was thick in our family. Very thick. And she defined the odds and she took another path. You know, she could have easily went down that same road, but she didn’t. And she has been a rock for every one of us, not only us siblings, but for mom and dad back, you know, when they needed it, when their health was going downhill. And, you know, she was the one that took care of a lot of people, and I’ve always admired her. My son, who walked around in high school with the Bible under his arm because he got turned on by, you know, going to a youth ministry thing, and. 

Doug Gotto:
And the youth minister just really struck a chord in him. And, you know, you can only imagine kids in high school like, get out of here. I don’t want to hear this stuff. You know, and he didn’t care. He just did it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. In high school. 

Doug Gotto:
In high school. 

Jeff Johnson:
That takes some courage. 

Doug Gotto:
And last but not least, you know, my. My wife today is. I think she would never say this because she’s very humble and. Sorry, getting a little choked up here. She was a school teacher for 36 years, and she was married to an active alcoholic for 30 plus years before we ever met. And she walked through that. And when we first met and she heard I was in recovery, these red flags came up because she’s never seen this side of it. She only saw that side of it. But, you know, she trusted God and trusted her heart. And now she’s one of my biggest cheerleaders, you know, and we just have an amazing life together. We. We celebrate life all the time. She’s hands down my best friend, but she’s walked through some stuff and has always taken the high road. 

Doug Gotto:
I mean, she just. She’s just. She’s my rock, and she’s a lot of people’s rock. Her kids and grandkids. I mean, everybody who knows her adores her, and it’s just because she’s very meek and mild, but she carries a big presence for a little statured lady. You know, I just tease her. She’s only 5 2, and she says, I’m not. I’m 5 3. 

Jeff Johnson:
But. 

Doug Gotto:
No, I think she is one of my idols in courage because she, you know, she just is. She walks through life with. And just. And just does it and doesn’t even think twice about it. I mean, just put. Does what’s in front of her and never puts herself first. And anybody who can do that to me, I think is very courageous because it’s easy to fall in that trap of what’s in it for me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Doug Gotto:
I mean, I would give you the shirt off my back in the day, but I wanted something in return or I wanted to pat on the back or I wanted you to tell 50 other people, you know, to build my ego up. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Doug Gotto:
And that’s just not her. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Well, I talking about this recovery routine and the sponsorship chain and all that sort of thing. So when I first got into recovery and put the plug in the jug, I got a sponsor. And that sponsor had a sponsor, which we affectionately refer to as a grand sponsor. And God rest his soul, he’s passed away now. But I remember he would always talk about how you could notice people that walk into the recovery rooms that have put God at the center of their life. And he said they just have an aura about him. He said, there’s just something that you can see about people when they walk in. And I’ve tested that postulate and I’ve found it to be true. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, there’s a lot of people that haven’t quite found that yet, maybe that have been into recovery and you know, it’s waiting for them on down the road, let’s hope. But there’s other people that walk in and they’ve just got that aura about them. And Doug, you’ve got that and you inspire me and you lift me up and I’m grateful to call you my friend. So thank you so much. Thanks for being on the podcast with us. Anything, any closing thoughts about the topic of courage you want to share with our listeners? 

Doug Gotto:
Trust God, clean house, and help others. We’ll close with that. Amen. Amen. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks, Doug. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.