Joseph Jones: From Shreveport to Leadership – A Journey of Courage and Community Impact

Joseph Jones is a dedicated public servant and advocate for social justice from Shreveport, Louisiana, whose journey is marked by resilience, a passion for service, and a steadfast commitment to making a positive difference. In this episode of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast, Joseph shares his inspiring path from a challenging neighborhood to becoming Chief of Staff at Des Moines University, where he supports healthcare education and community impact.
Reflecting on his early motivations to give back, Joseph discusses the importance of public service, the challenges of balancing introversion with a public role, and his courageous steps through life’s crossroads—from advocating for community change to participating in COVID-19 vaccine trials. His story encourages listeners to pursue their own paths with bravery and resilience, driven by a desire to create lasting impact.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now, your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:

Hey, everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. I love doing these interviews. Have I told you guys that before? I’m sure I have, because I absolutely love them. Every single one that I do leads me deeper and deeper into this topic of courage. And I am. I’m never surprised, I don’t think, but I’m always impressed with the way people answer that question because it can become very nuanced. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, you are the only you that God ever created in all of human existence. You’re the unique article. And I could ask you the question, what’s the most courageous thing you. You’ve ever done? And you would be able to answer that question. I could even ask you today, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve done so far today? And you would have answer to that question, and it would be unique to you. It would be your special fingerprint. It would be the special thing that you’ve experienced in this beautiful life that God’s given you. And we’ve got another one today. My friend, Joseph Jones. He’s intellectual man. He’s an accomplished man. He’s somebody who’s not from where I’m from, but he’s come a long way, and his life is marked with all these beautiful steps of courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
And even given all of that, I was able to ask him the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And he had a very specific answer for it that’s going to enrich you, just like it enriched me. So I hope you’re enjoying these podcast episodes, and I’m sure that you are, and I particularly am excited for you to listen to our guest today, Joseph Jones. Here we go. So, Joseph, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. And I want to get to know a little bit more about your family background and where you’re from and what it is that you do. So could you fill us in a little bit, me and the audience? 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. Well, I grew up in Louisiana, and all my life, I wanted to do two things as a kid. I wanted to serve in the military, and I wanted to work for an elected official. I knew I wanted to work in Government from a young age. And part of that motivation was the neighborhood I grew up in, which people have heard me say over and over was kind of a. What would be a tough neighborhood now? Probably seemed perfectly normal to me then. But anytime there were problems within the black community, I just kind of felt like our same leaders were being asked to get involved and to help. But I never always felt like those people accepted or were representative of my family. 

Joseph Jones:
And my parents having never gone to college, my dad never finishing high school, I just know where was the voice for folks like us. And as a kid, I just didn’t. I didn’t see that. And, of course, you know, you have your own kind of lens to the world at any age. And so at that point, I didn’t really realize kind of the width and breadth of what government did or how it worked or how communities worked. But I knew that I wanted to be that voice at the table for folks like me. 

Jeff Johnson:
How young? How young was that? 

Joseph Jones:
I was in elementary school when I knew that. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s impressive right there. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard anybody say that they wanted to be in. In government, working for an elected official. So that. That’s impressive. What part of Louisiana were you from? 

Joseph Jones:
I grew up in Shreveport, which is in the northwest corner. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Joseph Jones:
So about 20 minutes, half hour at the most, from the Arkansas border and about 10 minutes from the Texas border. Yeah. Smack dab in the corner. So, yeah, that’s. That’s kind of what I knew I wanted to do. So I wanted to be a military officer. And then I wanted to leave that and go and start a career in public service working for elected officials. So I actually did think that I was going to go to the Naval Academy. That was my plan. I had done ROTC in high school, and it was army rotc. And I thought, okay, I don’t want to do army stuff. I want to do Navy stuff. I want to be on a submarine. I want to see the war world. 

Joseph Jones:
And my senior year of high school, we took a trip with just the ROTC students who were seniors, and went to Georgia, to Warner Robbins Air Force Base and to what was then Fort Benning and saw the folks finishing up Ranger school, and I saw this great Ranger demonstration. Like, no, I want to do that stuff. I want to blow up the things and do the Australian repel. Face down, going down the side of the mountain and all the things, and be ext. Of the river, you know, the helicopters and all that stuff. And so I. I Went back and I did something that I later on we realized was a huge ask, which was I called my congressman’s office and I said, I know that I’ve gotten this nomination to the Naval Academy. 

Joseph Jones:
I know that we’re going to find out results of applications pretty soon, but I actually think that I really would rather be an army officer and would love to get a nomination to West Point instead. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. But you didn’t know what you were. You didn’t know what you were asking. You were just. 

Joseph Jones:
Exactly. No, no. And. And later on, as a congressional staffer, I, I would. I realized then I’m like, oh, yeah. But because I didn’t know and because I asked it very earnestly, you know, and they were very receptive, and I was able to get a nomination to West Point instead. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Joseph Jones:
So. But yeah, that’s. That’s kind of how I, I got out of Louisiana. That was my. I. I knew that I would leave to go to college. I wanted to see something else. I wanted to experience something else. 

Jeff Johnson:
Tell me about. Do you have siblings? 

Joseph Jones:
I do. I have an older sister. She’s seven years older and has been my second mother since the day I was born, I’m pretty sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
Did she have the same wherewithal, you know, the ambition for the military or to make things better in your neighborhood? 

Joseph Jones:
No. Jocelyn has. She certainly is a lover of people and community, but she and I did not have the same sort of look at terms of wanting to do public service, wanting to get out and do things. She’s very gregarious with her friends and our family. But I would say he is even more introverted than I am in many ways. 

Jeff Johnson:
You consider yourself an introvert, then? 

Joseph Jones:
Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jeff Johnson:
Although you’re, Although you’re getting a hold of your congressman and saying, I’d rather go to West Point than. I’d love that. Joseph. 

Joseph Jones:
I’m an introvert. And I recognize that so many of the things that I’m passionate about require me to take on those extroverted tendencies. And so, you know, mentally preparing myself and gearing up for crowds or what I now call peopleing is really important. But then taking that time to spend time by myself and to recenter and be quiet and go for solitary walks and meditate twice a day. All those things that I do as a way to recharge and energize, because I do recognize that many of the things that I engage in, whether it be city council or my work or any of my. My past life, requires me to be around a Lot of people and doing a lot of interaction and that’s exhausting to me. But I know it’s something for the greater good at the end of the day. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Take me back to. And I’m poking around so you can tell me to shush if you want me to, but I’m curious down in Shreveport. Take me back to like a day, a typical high school day. Say maybe you’re a junior in high school. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And it’s a Tuesday or Wednesday. You get up in the morning. What, what would that look like for you, Joseph? I think that tells you a lot about the person, you know, just to kind of get a feel for where you came from. Because you’re striking me as a self starter and this motivation to make something of yourself and better your community has I would imagine, some pretty deep roots. So what would a day look like? 

Joseph Jones:
So I typically would get up in the morning and do some sort of exercise, whether it be push ups, sit ups, go for a run or something of that nature and to school whatever time school started. And you know, I enjoyed most of high school. I was in the gifted and talented program as a high school student and I went to a school that was a magnet school. So I was there with a lot of super smart people which actually kind of took the stigma away about being smart. And so then you still had all the same other things with the sports and the clubs and everything else, but there wasn’t like the nerds over here kind of thing. Everyone had to test to get into that school. So we knew that there was a level of nerdiness amongst all of us. 

Joseph Jones:
I was really involved in my junior rotc. Like I said, I love that. And so my junior year I would have been a platoon leader, one of the officers and was involved in student council for the entire time I was in high school and middle school as well. So my committee back then for student council spent a lot of time doing more outward facing community things. So we would do the, were the ones who would chose to do the canned food drive and we’re the ones who would choose to do serving meals on Thanksgiving Day. 

Joseph Jones:
So you know, a freshman would come to student council, student government and you know, be assigned to a committee and they would understand that if you join Joseph’s committee, you’re going to give up part of your Thanksgiving Day with your family and go down to the shelter and you’re going to feed people and it’s going to be part of what we do to give back. And so those are the types of things that I enjoyed doing. I was on our orienteering team, which is an interesting sport of cross country running with a map encompass of the woods, essentially, and you’re finding point to point, and you have to snap or somehow clip your. Your card to prove that you made it to that particular point. And then you use your map and compass to navigate over to the next point. 

Joseph Jones:
And it’s all timed over the course of time. So it was a really fun sport, but also came in handy later on in life. But I love camping and hiking and all that stuff. So being able to read a topographical map and assess things quickly about where I am was, you know, turned out. 

Jeff Johnson:
To be a life skill, comes in handy. I know that you still like to do that. I’ve seen some of your vacation pictures, you know, with rock climb, and it’s no joke. I mean, you’re not just out walking in the woods like I would be with, you know, trying to swat all the bugs away. You’re out there doing it. So you really like that you, you chase adventure still. Yeah. 

Joseph Jones:
And I think one of the things that really opened up life for me, Jeff, was I grew up in the inner city, like I was saying earlier, but my parents realized there was an opportunity for us, particularly my sister and I, to get away from some of the things that were. That could have been negative impacts on our lives. And so we actually moved to a more rural area when I got to middle school. And so my. Instead of hanging out on any given day and playing with my friends in the street and running up and down alleys and that sort of thing, I was now out in the country and I had trails to walk along and hang out with my dog and, you know, look at wildlife and really just explore being, you know, out in nature. 

Joseph Jones:
And that actually opened up a whole lot of peace and calm for me. And it’s been part of my life since then. 

Jeff Johnson:
A natural, a natural introvert, a learned man, and somebody who’s, you know, plunked down, out in nature and spending time. I get it. I’m starting to get a picture of it now. Okay, so now take us through, take us through West Point and into your career and that sort of thing. 

Joseph Jones:
Sure. So one of the things that hit me hard was I hurt my knees when I was. I went to the prep school in New Jersey, which is now at West Point itself, but it was at Fort Monmouth at the time, prior to getting to the academy and while I was there, it was the first time that I really hurt my knees. I spent some time doing rehab and working on that, got back to the academy. At this point, I’m in New York, and we realized that it’s not going to work out unless I can do surgery, and you can’t do surgery unless there’s a real major problem. So I had partially torn ACLs, but not completely torn. And so the. 

Joseph Jones:
I was honorably discharged from the army and at this point had to figure out what I was going to do with myself, because I, like I said, I had this vision of myself as a military officer and going off and leading and being a part of that camaraderie. And that was gone. And I knew that the other phase was I wanted to work in government. But it was definitely a future that I had to grieve because I was not going to get to live that part of the future. So I focused on what I would do, and I knew it was going to involve something to do with government, something to do with civic engagement. That could be anything from being a social studies teacher to being a congressional staffer. 

Joseph Jones:
And so I refocused my sights on my education and went down to Loyola in New Orleans and studied economics and world religion. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s a good school. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. And it was. 

Jeff Johnson:
How did you find that? 

Joseph Jones:
It was a great school for me, you know, small liberal arts school. It’s a Jesuit university. So focusing on the Jesuit values of education and helping to really embrace my thoughts on community action and social justice, because that’s part of the Jesuit way. I found my econ classes to be really challenging, but a great way to learn about thinking about the world and how others see the world. I found my world religion classes to be really eye opening. I grew up Christian. I converted to Catholicism particularly, but I did not know a lot about any other faith traditions. Just very surface level things about Judaism or Islam. And so it was really great to delve into things that were not the religious or spiritual backgrounds that I’d grown up with to hear about that. I’d had the opportunity to do some. 

Joseph Jones:
A tiny bit of travel. And so I was just always curious about how the rest of the world works because we didn’t have a lot of money. So my. My world was the things that I saw in my encyclopedias or read about in books. And so wanting to see those things and wanting to understand, you know, the folks of those cultures and backgrounds, I thought was going to start with me understanding their faith traditions. 

Jeff Johnson:
Mm. Where does just Real quick. Yeah, there’s this drumbeat. You know, you talked about this idea of social justice and working in government and having an impact and that sort of thing. You mentioned just briefly, that you saw some things going on around you that weren’t right and that pushed you in that direction. But it seems like that was a really strong draw. Was that all rooted in your childhood? Was that all rooted in what you saw at Shreveport? 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah, yeah. And I, and I think I, you know, not knowing that it was called a calling, but I think I knew that calling fairly early on, and it was rooted in what I saw and how people were treated and the experiences I had as a kid. And even just kind of the remnants of the civil rights era in Shreveport. 

Joseph Jones:
And, you know, there’s still some places at that point where you could see, you know, the word colored, you know, fading, but still painted on, you know, alley wall or something downtown or, you know, just knowing the history of some of those locations, understanding that some of the most poverty stricken areas were the ones that were most ignored, and knowing people who live there and living in parts of those areas myself and accessing our library versus accessing the downtown library or the one on the nicer side of town, the differences were stark and you could feel them. You knew that there was a difference and it did not feel right all the time. And I just wanted to. I wanted the next generations to feel more included and welcome and comfortable in their own town. 

Jeff Johnson:
Now, the purpose of our podcast here, the courageous Crossroads, centers in on this one question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And I don’t want to betray your answer to that, so I’m not going to ask you that just now. Yeah, but I’m always a little nervous and I might be like fussing around the edges of where that answer is going to come from. But I am curious. Was there somebody in your neighborhood that represented somebody who was sticking up for the downtrodden, you know, somebody who is doing the work, let’s say that you were felt called to do at an early age. Was there somebody or was there, was there a void there? You really didn’t see anybody doing it, and that became more of a catalyst for you to get engaged in this kind of work? 

Joseph Jones:
I think that there were people doing the work and I didn’t always notice who it was or that they were doing it. But what I felt was it wasn’t down at our level. It was kind of the group of people that were just above maybe socioeconomically or politically with their capital, above where were. And they were kind of looking out for the best interests of those folks. But I think amongst those of us who were from the working class and more poor, we had each other and were looking out for each other and were being supportive of each other and how that teamed out. Even just the idea that my parents were both factory workers. And my mom had to go back to work almost immediately after I was born. And the neighbor who lived behind us was an older lady. 

Joseph Jones:
Her kids were already grown and out of the house. And so she’s who took care of me for those first several years. My parents would pass me across the fence before the sun rose in the morning, and I would be with Ms. Crowder all day long until they were done with work, and then they passed me back over. And that was from the time I was born until I went to kindergarten. And even after kindergarten or during kindergarten, first couple of years, I would still go to her house after school. So that’s how we. That’s how we did it. So I. I knew that I was my brother’s keeper. I knew to love my neighbor as myself, and I knew that my. My family was larger than just the people I was related to by blood. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. And your parents certainly set you up for success being advanced with your intellect the way that it was. And I would imagine they’re supporting you and pushing you in the right direction all through your. 

Joseph Jones:
You know, they were always really. I would say that they were. They were understanding that I needed to succeed and I needed to have access to opportunities. They may not have understood the things I was studying or what I was reading, but they found ways for me to have access to the things that I needed to do those things, which was also just really great on itself. But my dad was still one of the smartest people that I ever knew. And his common sense and just wherewithal to do so many things was. It was enviable just because I loved everything about what I learned from him, just watching him be him and the same with my mom and how they interact with each other. 

Joseph Jones:
So I had a great home example, just living life and taking care of each other and what it’s like to show love and caring and support and to. To be thoughtful in how you approach your interactions with people. 

Jeff Johnson:
So you’re a man of faith. You’re. You’re man letters. You’re an intellectual. You’re down in Loyola now. You’re mourning a little bit the fact that you can’t complete the military service, that you gave that a solid try and it just didn’t work out for physical reasons that were outside of your control. So I’m curious, and you’re down studying social justice and those kinds things, was there somebody that you read in at Loyola? Was there a stream of study that really impacted you? 

Joseph Jones:
Well, I wouldn’t say that so much as studying economics as my major, understanding how people were brought to make the decisions that had affected my life earlier on. Right. We have schools of thought amongst economists that policymakers then take that advice, or they take advice from economists and other leaders who have come from those schools of thoughts and belief, and they then ask them to enact laws and policies that align with those things. So it was helpful and eye opening to understand Keynesian and neo Keynesian economics or to understand the Austrian economic cycle or whatever that school of thought was that people used. And so I wouldn’t say it was any one in particular, although the Adam Smith and von Mises and some of those were really interesting to me because people took that to heart and they wanted to follow those things. 

Joseph Jones:
And I saw it more as I see this as a line of thought, I see it as very theoretical in many ways. And how it actually plays out in life means that it needs to be tweaked as we go along. It can work purely in this vacuum. But when you’re talking about real human lives and all of the rational and irrational actors and whatever market forces that are there, it almost plays out like a ballet in terms of just all the different moving parts and pieces and tempos that go along with how we conduct ourselves as the society. 

Jeff Johnson:
So instead of. Right. So instead of grabbing a hold of some dogma and aligning yourself with that and saying, this is who I am now, you’re taking all these different parts and pieces and they’re interacting with the calling that God’s already laid on your heart. 

Joseph Jones:
Right. 

Jeff Johnson:
And they’re flavoring your. Your track. That makes sense to me. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s good. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. So it just kind of helped to inform how I saw things. 

Jeff Johnson:
You get out of college, what do you do? 

Joseph Jones:
I laugh because I get to this point and I, you know, I told you already, my parents didn’t go to college. I was the first generation to go, first person to graduate. And I started looking at these jobs and most of them were going to be with Pricewaterhouse, Goldman, Smith, Barney. You know, I looked at a lot of them. They all had kind of government Practices, right. So I could do my government related things, but also use my econ degree. And I decided that I was moving to Atlanta because the person I was dating at the time had moved to Atlanta. So I was narrowing my focus there. And I found a, a letter that I remember receiving. 

Joseph Jones:
There was a job fair in New Orleans and the state auditor of Georgia had come and I didn’t get to visit with them, but I thought, hey, when I go out to have this other interview in Atlanta, these other interviews, I’m going to reach out to them just to see if I can, you know, say hi, you know. And so what I thought was going to be like a half hour stop by to visit this office turned out to be a three hour conversation with different people across the different departments of the state auditor’s office of Georgia. And when it came down to graduation time, I’d gotten some offers for jobs in Atlanta and the state auditor was one of them. 

Joseph Jones:
And I laughed because I was thinking about the conversation I had with my dad in particular and someone who had been working with his hands his entire life, who always provided for what we needed, but worked all the extra hours he could and worked overtime and very long days, and had always worked for the next raise. I explained to him in my best good son way that I was taking the job that was going to pay me exactly half of what the highest job offer was and I was going to go work for the state auditor instead of going to work for like American Express, I think is what it was at the time. And, you know, he asked me about my thinking about that. You know, there was never a, no, don’t do that. 

Joseph Jones:
It was more of a, you know, why are you doing that? I talked to him about, you know, I wanted to be able to help people. I wanted to interact with government. It was going to be a really good way for me to learn. I was working as a performance auditor, so I was going to evaluate programs, make sure they’re meeting legislative intent, make sure they’re being economically effective, make recommendations and write reports for the joint appropriations committee of the legislature. I walked through all that and I said, you work 14 hour days, 16 hour days. Sometimes you don’t love your job. You do your job because you appreciate what it can do for your family. 

Joseph Jones:
I said, you wanted me to go to college so I could have options whether I wanted to work with my hands or whether I wanted to sit and talk to people or everything in between. And I said, I think because I’m going to Be working that many hours, I’m going to want to really enjoy what I do. I don’t want to just go in and just do it. And I said, so I’m looking for something that’s a little more intrinsically rewarding. And then I said, besides, it’s more money than I’ve ever had in my life anyway. So I’ve been fine up until this point. It doesn’t matter if it’s this big or that big. It’s still more than what I’ve had. 

Joseph Jones:
And I had a really good mentor in undergrad who stressed to us that if we really did the stuff we loved, then the money would eventually come and we would eventually find ourselves in a place where we are happy and content. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s a little, there’s a little altruism in there too, you know, just doing the right thing, just to do the right thing. Wow, I admire you for that, Joseph. So how do you come to Iowa? Is that too big of a jump? Do you have a few more. No stops in between there? 

Joseph Jones:
No, it’s, you’re. You’re in the right spot. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Joseph Jones:
Though I was working that job actually and I’d done a really long, almost a year long audit on crime victim services. So, you know, walking through the process from the time someone reports a crime happening to, through adjudication, but all the steps in between and as you can imagine, it’s a very emotionally draining type of audit to work through, whether you’re talking to law enforcement or the people who run the domestic violence shelters or the people who were the targets and victims of whatever the crime was to the volunteers and the family members. And so after doing several of those interviews and several of those reviews of evidence rooms and paperwork and all that stuff, I was drained. And I noticed and I understood that our office did a really good job of allowing people some time off to kind of recenter and focus. 

Joseph Jones:
The other thing I will say as a part of that was that were, you know, in the late 90s, early 2000s, were an office that allowed for flex time. So, you know, my first job out of college, I get to decide if I’m going to work, you know, nines and eights or four tens or whatever the thing was. And I, that was amazing. I’m like, yeah, so who cares about this extra money? I get to have this extra time, you know, and particularly wanting to, you know, work Monday through Thursday and then leave Thursday night and drive back to New Orleans and see my friend. So. But one of the things that they did as a part of that retainment is allowing people to take leaves of absence. 

Joseph Jones:
And I knew people had gone to, you know, cooking classes or learning to write books or taking time to travel. And there was even a couple who take some time to go work on campaigns. And so what I wanted to do was two or threefold. I wanted to go work on a campaign. I had not done that since I was in college. And I’m like, oh, it’ll be fun to work on a campaign somewhere. And I gave myself a little bit of assignment. I wanted to go to a place I’d never been before because I still wanted to see all 50 states back then, use zero, what I would call help or political help. So I wasn’t going to call ahead or try to figure, who do I know that’s in this place that could help me do this thing? 

Joseph Jones:
And then third was to be open to taking whatever job they gave me. The first was, I was told that I was going to go work on a campaign up in Minnesota. And I was really excited about that. I thought Paul Wellstone was an amazing politician who had a big heart and was focused on the right things for the people. I got to D.C. For this training session, and I find out that the person who hired me was no longer there at the organization and that I was not assigned to Minnesota after all. And Minnesota was full. So I met some folks from Maine who were talking about the selection that they were working on in Maine. And they said, hey, you should think about coming up there. I’m like, okay, well, I’ve never been to Maine before. 

Joseph Jones:
I can do that, you know, like one M state to another. No, Minnesota, I’ll go to Maine. And as I was, you know, contemplating that decision, someone came in the room. I’d gotten back to the training session. It was at Georgetown, I think. And they said, well, there’s some folks from Iowa outside who want to talk to you. Okay, So I step outside and I have this great conversation that could not have been 15 minutes long, talking about how great Iowa is, how nice the people are, how much fun it is to campaign there, the governance structure and how that all worked out and how people got along really well. 

Joseph Jones:
And then they capped it off with, and if you ever want to work on a presidential campaign sometime in the future, it’s so helpful to have experience working in Iowa or New Hampshire, so you might as well come to Iowa. And I said, you know what? I’ve never been to Iowa before. Can’t be that, you know, bad. I Can do anything for five or six months. Right. And it never crossed my mind, you know, kids growing up in Shreveport don’t necessarily think about moving to Iowa one day. But I said, okay. I trusted them. I believe them. I went back to Louisiana to visit my mom. My dad had passed away at that point earlier in the year. 

Joseph Jones:
And then I drove up to Des Moines and I rolled into town at about 4:30 or 5 in the morning, found a hotel downtown and spent the night there. And they asked me to check out at 11:30. So I think I slept for five hours and then it was up and out and then started work here. And so I worked on a campaign here for five or six months. And when it was over, I packed up and packed up my car and I drove back to whose campaign? So I worked on a coordinated campaign. So kind of everyone put their money in together to do the door knocking and the phone banking and that sort of thing. But the top of the ticket were Tom Vilsack and Tom Harkin, and they were both running for re election. 

Joseph Jones:
Vilsack to his second term as governor and Harkin probably to his fourth term in the Senate. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
That was your. That was your first experience with Iowa politics right there? 

Joseph Jones:
That’s right. That sure was. 

Jeff Johnson:
And it was just a short period of time. And then you left again. 

Joseph Jones:
Yep. So I was here from June through November. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, so you gotta. You gotta go to the Iowa State Fair then. Joseph, the obvious question is why in the devil would you ever leave the state of once. Once you go to the Iowa State Fair and you’ve got a deep fat fried ball of butter with cinnamon sugar on it, there’s no reason to leave. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah, you know, I had the chance to go to the state fair. Had a chance to see a bunch of sites throughout the state, a lot of parades and towns across from river to river. Yeah, I really got to see a lot. I mean, and everything from, you know, everything being in the ground to being harvested and just kind of, you know, how the landscape of Iowa changes throughout the summer and fall so much. So to your point, Jeff, I was sitting back at my desk, not just a few weeks later, and I said, you know, I think I’m supposed to be in Iowa. And I reached out back to the folks that I’d worked with on the campaigns and said, you know, are there any jobs that are open that I would have a skill set for? 

Joseph Jones:
Because I think I’d like to come back. And this was at the end of November that I made that or early December That I made that ask. And by the end of March, I was moving into my apartment and back in Windsor Heights. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Wow. Awesome. Yeah. 

Joseph Jones:
I knew zero people the first time. The second time, probably about a half dozen, but there was something that drew me here that said, you know, this is the place you’re supposed to be now. 

Jeff Johnson:
How did you. Okay, so then for a job, because the. That season was over. 

Joseph Jones:
That season was over. 

Jeff Johnson:
What do you come back and do? 

Joseph Jones:
I came back and I directly worked for the. The Democratic Party. I worked on campaigns to get ready for. Actually, I worked at the party to get ready for the 2004 Democratic caucuses. And so my job was to help to make sure that we ran a smooth Democratic side of the caucuses that year, were helpful to all the campaigns, were helpful to all the county parties as they were organizing their caucus sites and the reporting systems and all that good stuff. So really got to delve deep into this thing and keeping in mind that I’ve never actually witnessed an Iowa caucus at this point, but I am a part of a team that’s responsible for administering. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Joseph Jones:
So I was out doing trainings, and I was being interviewed about how the process worked all over the country, in the world, some of the sources, the news sources, and it was really a great time and a really good thing to see. After that election cycle was over, as typically happens, the staff thinned down, so many of us were let go. I spent some time looking for a job and just trying to hone my skills and ended up going to work at Creative Visions over on the north side of Des Moines and working with families that were trying to make ends meet and doing direct service. So folks who are reassimilating after being in jail, in prison, people with their utility bills. 

Joseph Jones:
I actually taught GED classes in the evening time and was part of a feeding program on Sundays where we gave away free meals to anybody who wanted them. There were training programs there for computers and some other things. And, yeah, it was a really good place to see how community organizations directly worked with people in need and understand where that need came from and how it was addressed and sometimes how it was ignored. So it was a good life lesson as well. 

Jeff Johnson:
I think it’s wonderful. And none of my Republican friends were able to coax you to come over to our side at all, because that’s a miss right there. 

Joseph Jones:
Well, you know, I have a lot of really great Republican friends, and. And I mean that, honestly. Some of my closest friends and, you know, we. We just. We’ve learned that There are things that we disagree on, but it doesn’t make us any less of good humans. And it’s kind of fun to push back and forth, but it’s also been nice, especially while I still worked in government and politics, to have people that you could have very vulnerable conversations with to ask why and ask those kind of inquisitive, understanding questions. But no, I was never convinced to go work for those. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, I’m glad to hear you answer it that way, Joseph, and I would expect that. And I completely agree with you, too. I mean, it’s to the glory of God that we’ve got these beautiful differences. And Proverbs 27:17 says, as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. So that’s where I think the. I think real intimacy among friends shows up is when you can have maybe differences of opinion or even a different ethos or, you know, perspective or whatever, and then you can share that and then you can learn so much more about each other. That’s the richness right there. So. 

Joseph Jones:
Oh, yeah, I. I think that just being able to have those conversations and, you know, it opens your perspective up. It helps you to better understand, even if you don’t agree sometimes. And sometimes it helps you to, you know, tweak your. Your understanding or change your mind in a way that can be helpful for other people who interact with you. 

Jeff Johnson:
Absolutely. Okay, so now. So I’m winding up on what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But what are you doing now? 

Joseph Jones:
So now fast forward several years. I am the chief of staff at Des Moines University, which is Osteopathic Medical School and Health Sciences University. And it’s a really great place from which to see the future of healthcare and medicine in our country, to see the students and their families get excited about what they are going to embark on and how they’re going to help to have ripple effects throughout the world. My job focuses a lot on the proverbial other duties assigned. So I work to provide support to the President and our office for projects and for ways of, you know, helping to handle the load of things that the office of the President’s responsible for. So I get to do a little bit of everything. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s wonderful. How do you let me jump into the courageous questions now? Because you’ve given us a lot to think about, you know, as we walk through your personal history and how you came from Shreveport to end up in Des Moines, Iowa. And we’re lucky to have you for sure, Joseph. But how do you define courage? 

Joseph Jones:
Well, I think courage is moving. It’s the movement, it’s the action in light of the fear that you have about doing whatever the thing is. It’s being vulnerable and allowing yourself to work through the fear, the anxiety, the stress of whatever it is that you want to do, that you’ve been called to do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Is it inherent in everybody? Does everybody have that? 

Joseph Jones:
I think they do. I think it could also show itself differently because it depends on the situation. And I think that sometimes that courage is situational, and sometimes that courage will be there throughout, you know, a certain time in life for someone. But I think that we all have the ability to be courageous. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Who’s. Who’s somebody that exemplifies courage for you in your life? Popular figure, historical figure, family member, friend, colleague? 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah, I. Well, there’s so many examples from biblical times to now, but I recently watched a movie about Cesar Chavez and about his work to help support the farm workers in California. And just the courage to speak up and speak out and help others to find their voice to speak up and speak out. Even with being faced with the reality of not having the money or the support or even the. The political capital all the time to. To get what you want, but doing it because you believe that it’s right. 

Jeff Johnson:
This is. I’m going to ask you an unfair question, and then I’m going to ask you what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? So here’s the unfair question. I’m giving myself license with this. Joseph, though, do you consider yourself a courageous person? 

Joseph Jones:
I think I. I would say no, But I would also temper that with looking at some of my decisions and actions. In hindsight, I can see that it probably took some level of courage to. To do it. But I think in the moment, I often see things as I’m doing it because it feels like the right thing to do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, Joseph Jones, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Joseph Jones:
I think it kind of builds over a couple years of things. I think the first was identifying and being comfortable with saying that I am a person who’s an introvert and embracing that as a part of my identity and understanding what that means for me in navigating the world. And I say that because what it led me to then was thinking through the pandemic, and I was no longer working in government, and I did not have any sort of influence on any processes of how we responded or how I could be helpful. And the only thing I could think to do was to volunteer for the COVID vaccine trial and didn’t see that as courageous. I saw it as important because we need to have answers, and we needed to know. 

Joseph Jones:
And we know that there’s historically not enough information from the black community amongst other underrepresented communities. So I thought, you know what? I believe in the research that can make us better. I believe in the processes of what we’re doing, and I want us to be able to start saving lives sooner. And so I’m going to raise my hand and go do this thing. But then just, gosh, probably two years after that. I think the most courageous thing was stepping away from the work that I had been doing for the six years prior. I’ve been a part of a really great public policy think tank, working on policy issues ranging from disability to health and wellness to retirement security and labor issues. 

Joseph Jones:
And I traveled the world with that job, and I’d gotten to meet people all over, and we’d done great research, and we built a new building. We built these coalitions of folks and really worked on some really important issues. But admitting that I was tired and I wanted to do something else and allow people, other people to sit in the seat and kind of put their vision to the work. And so raising my hand again, but this time saying, I’m stepping away and not having a job lined up, not having a plan other than I’m going to do the things that I want to do for a little while and just give myself a break. 

Joseph Jones:
So to consciously know there was no income coming in, there was a little bit of money saved that I could live on, support myself, but knowing that I needed to give time to myself and not giving any credence to other people’s worries about me, but more so, I just want to take a break and accepting that it was okay to do that and give myself permission to relax. And it was tough. I think for a lot of people, it gave them anxiety that I was not looking for a job and I didn’t have a job. Probably. Probably more so. Definitely more so than me. Like, I was just, you know, thinking, you know, by the end of the year, I’ll have a sense of which lane I want to go down next. 

Joseph Jones:
But until then, I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna skydive, I’m gonna go hiking, I’m gonna read, I’m gonna sleep in, I’m gonna walk the dog. And until I get, like, the next energy boost, I’m just gonna stay this path and take care of me. 

Jeff Johnson:
That takes a Lot of courage to do that, Joseph. And I think there’s. I think there’s a lot of people, most people probably that don’t. Don’t do that. Maybe motivated. I mean, I don’t want to overstate it, but maybe motivated by fear or something like that, anxiety and everything, but they don’t ever take enough time to take a breath to see what it is that the Lord’s got for him next. So that takes a lot of courage. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. And it, you know, again, hindsight, you know, it seems a little wild, but at the time, it just. It felt like the thing that I needed to do. And it was nice to be in a position to say, you know what? I can. I can not do some work for a while and it’ll be okay. The world will keep turning. I still went to my board committee meetings. I still went to city council, but, you know, I showed up in hiking shorts and keens and, you know. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Joseph Jones:
T shirt sometimes because I was relaxed. I did not need to fit a certain person’s vision of me or my Persona. I recognize that I embody all of those histories. I told you, and all the experiences I’ve had and the education and the titles. No matter what I’m wearing, no matter where I am, and I don’t need to have that recognition. What I needed was to. To give myself what I’ve been giving others, which was time and attention. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, it sounds like. It might sound like a little. Kind of a hallmarky thing to say, but, you know, the courage to give yourself a break. The courage to be able to, you know, people say, find yourself. I don’t know if that necessarily gets it, but you know what I mean. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
To be able to. Be able to really find out what it is that you’re supposed to do and then be effective at it. So that naturally led to your current position. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. How. How wild is that? I was just, you know, minding my own business and spending time just getting back to. To me. And lo and behold, this position came open. Something I would have never looked for and had not really thought about. It wasn’t on my radar, the type of work or anything, but once it was presented and I knew that it was out there, I thought, oh, this is something that I would enjoy doing. This is different than what I’ve done before. This gives me an opportunity to use all of these different experiences to make a difference in a different realm. It also gives me an opportunity to learn from someone who I consider to be an amazing Leader, which is Dr. Franklin. And who’s the president of the university. 

Joseph Jones:
And, yeah, I don’t think my heart mind would have been open to it if I were not in a headspace and in a workspace, or in this case, without a workspace to give me the opportunity to be open for it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Well, they’re sure lucky to have you. Step back just real quick to the volunteering to do the COVID vaccine trial. 

Joseph Jones:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
See, this is another place where you and I can learn from each other. This is so valuable to me, Joseph. I’m not a vaccine person. I didn’t want to take it. I never took the vaccine. 

Joseph Jones:
Sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
But I respect you for stepping out for something that you believed very much in. And it sounds like it was selfless, too. You’re talking about your community not having a lot of good data, and somebody’s got to find out whether or not this thing is okay or not. That’s a tremendous amount of courage, in my view. Were you. Were you trepidatious about that? Was it a really easy decision for you to. 

Joseph Jones:
It was an easy decision. And like I said, you know, I, you know, for years, particularly, you know, as someone who’s done a lot of research and earned a doctorate where you know, you talk about ways to do ethical and humane research. Right. That’s part of your training to get to your degree. And you’ve. You’ve read about and you heard about all the horror stories or all the lack of information because the trepidation within different communities because of the horror stories and how those communities have been treated over the decades and centuries. And I thought, I feel like I can be one of those people who says, I will raise my hand to be a part of getting good data and good information. So at least there is my input. I’m not sure how many other people who look like me will. 

Joseph Jones:
Will be a part of that, but at least I can be counted for helping. And so the trial, the Pfizer trial, was being conducted at the University of Iowa Hospital. So it was like. It was one of the few times I got out of the house. Right. I got to drive to Iowa City every now and then. And this really almost like a ghost town experience of driving down, ie, not a whole lot of cars on the road, Right. Get to the hospital, and you’ll remember back then to go into any place, but particularly hospitals, you’re masked up, and I can only go in by myself. So I could even have, like a road trip with other people and go and sit and wait. And that first time around they do the. All the testing and the blood draws and then they. 

Joseph Jones:
It’s a double blind study, so they don’t know and you don’t know what you’re being given. And so I had that first shot in August of 20 and did not find out until January of 21 that I’d actually received the vaccine. But I think the fear was then like. Or trepidation, I would say, was in the first week or so after the shot, like, okay, what’s going to happen to me? And tracking those effects, you have a journal to talk about what you’re feeling, you’re taking your temperature. All negative stuff. But I think the potential benefits outweighed the potential risks in my mind in terms of going through that process. And so as it went on, I did multiple phases of the trial over time. And yeah, it was something that. 

Joseph Jones:
It felt like I was doing something to be helpful when otherwise I could have been sitting at home thinking, what can I do to be helpful? 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s what I know. That’s what is really sticking out with me about that, Joseph. I mean, I got a lot of respect for you anyway, but it just went up a bunch for you doing that because you’re doing that. That’s a very Christian endeavor. You know, you’re worried about other people and other people need to know and you’re willing to go first. And I just got a lot of respect for you. So you’re. Go ahead. 

Joseph Jones:
I was going to say that actually reminds me of. It’s actually how I got more deeply involved in volunteering at my church because so many of our volunteers at our church are elderly older people. And I thought, you know, there’s so many things now that could negatively affect them if they were to get sick and that sort of thing. And so I. I reached out and I said, can I be a lecturer and a eucharistic minister and other things at the church? Can I come clean the pews during the daily Mass? And at that point, were sectioned off our pews at our church every other. And so people were socially distancing and all of that good stuff. 

Joseph Jones:
But I was able to, because were working from home to be able to just pop down there and help so we wouldn’t put so many of our older parishioners at risk. And so. And that has stuck too. I’ve continued to make that a priority even after the pandemic, just to be able to help out as best I can there. But yeah, I was thinking the same thing about them because I knew that they would want to be there and help out with the service, but probably shouldn’t all of them? 

Jeff Johnson:
Joseph, your life is riddled with so many courageous hallmarks. This is wonderful. I mean, I don’t want to slobber on you too much, but this is, it’s a blessing to have this conversation. Last, last question for you. How do you. I don’t mean this to be an alliteration, but how do you encourage somebody with courage if somebody’s, if somebody is. If there’s another Joseph Jones that’s out there wondering whether they should get in their car and drive to Des Moines and take that job and what am I doing? Or I’d rather go to West Point than blah, blah. You know what I mean? How do you call that out of them? How do you bring that to the forefront so that they can deal with a difficult decision? 

Joseph Jones:
You know, I think for me, it’s always been having a community surrounding myself with my biological and my found family and having those people be supportive and encouraging of my thoughts and ideas. They might ask tough questions about it, but at the end of the day, they’re going to give sage advice, but they’re going to say, you know what? You should go for it, and I believe you can do it. And sometimes we have to listen to those quiet voices, and sometimes we have to be quiet to hear that quiet voice and that spirit within us to move us in the right direction. But then knowing that when you take that action on the other end, it turns out to be even better than expected. Oftentimes. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Surround yourself with people that love you. Yeah, There’s a biblical theme right there. Joseph Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m a better man for knowing you. 

Joseph Jones:
Oh, my gosh. Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it. Things I would have never thought about talking about. And I appreciate having that conversation with you because it’s nice to reflect on some of these things. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. 

Outro:

Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web@crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at infocrossroadsapologetics.com or infoorsroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you. You’ve ever done.