From Bondage to Breakthrough: Brandon McNace on Modern-Day Slavery

Brandon McNace is the founder and leader of Exodus 51, a groundbreaking nonprofit dedicated to freeing modern-day slaves in Pakistan. What began as a simple step of faith has grown into a life-changing mission that has already liberated thousands from bondage. Brandon’s passion for justice and his unwavering commitment to God’s calling have driven him to create an organization that not only frees individuals but also provides them with the resources and community support needed to rebuild their lives. His story of courage and faith continues to inspire many to take action in their own lives.

To support Exodus 51 and help free more lives from slavery,
visit https://www.exodus51.org/

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, Brandon, I want to talk to you about Exodus 51, and I want you to bring our listeners up to speed. Well, first of all, thank you for being on the program. 

Brandon McNace:
I mean. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, thank you for coming back. 

Brandon McNace:
Honor of my life. 

Jeff Johnson:
Your first episode was eye opening because it told Everybody about Exodus 51 and what that program was about, but it has expanded and grown significantly since the last time we talked. So I need you to not necessarily reintroduce yourself, but tell people a little bit about who you are and then say more about Exodus 51 to bring us kind of up to speed. 

Brandon McNace:
Yep. So, yeah, husband, a father, and started a crazy nonprofit. You know, so what I tell people, there’s three kind of funnels, if you haven’t listened to the first episode, the first thing. And our foundation for everything we do is we. We believe that people should not be owned. And so the foundation point of our ministry will be everybody has value, and we’re going to set slaves free. So, like, that’s the number one thing we do right now. All of that work is in Pakistan. The second thing that we believe in is education. And so we have a school over there, updated numbers. I think we have 352 kids now in our school, which is super cool. The third thing. The third. I mean, we do a lot of other stuff, but the third. 

Jeff Johnson:
352 kids in the school. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. Which is super cool. And we did a big update, so we. I think I’m going to not say this right, but I think we did, like, nine classrooms, seven bathrooms. We built a new church. And so the third part is going to be our church. And our church now has. They did, like, registration cards, which is super funny. Like, hey, who goes here? And 910 people are basically registered calling our church home. So 910 people at our church. And then the cool part, I won’t do the math on the fly, but our first year, 303 people set free. In 2022, 2023, it was 1,333. And as of this week, our total number, I think, is 4825. 

Brandon McNace:
So you can do the math of, like, backing out the other numbers, but we’ve basically tripled Almost what we did last year already we’ve got a couple months left. 

Jeff Johnson:
So what those numbers mean is almost 5,000 slaves have been freed. 

Brandon McNace:
Where the number. I mean, it’s just crazy. Like, I can’t find really peers doing what we’re doing. And we’re the. I mean, I’m not doing this for this, but you look like, hey, who else could we, like, glean information from? And it’s. There’s no one else doing this in Pakistan, most likely the Middle East. And when you talk about the world, there’s not a lot of people really doing this type of work. And yet there’s more slaves in this world than there ever has been. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, so the elevator. The elevator. Introduction to Exodus 51 is. This is a ministry that Brandon started after. Out of obedience, following the Lord. Some really interesting things happen to lead him to this ministry, which is why you got to go back and listen to his first episode on the Courageous Crossroads. And because of that first step of faith, you’ve been back and forth to Pakistan several times. But the basic idea is the ministry pays for the debt that pays the debt that these Christian indentured servants owe to. To Muslim brick kiln owners. 

Brandon McNace:
Y. Let’s say fourth, fifth, sixth generation. I mean, they’ve been 99.99 of them. 

Jeff Johnson:
Are born into it, and they are set free. 

Brandon McNace:
Yep. So we. 

Jeff Johnson:
When you go over there and you pay for them out of a ledger, you say, I’ll cover their debt, and then they’re set free. Then the next question is, what do they do once they’re set free? Because a lot of these people have been in there for their whole life. 

Brandon McNace:
Yep. So then we get them connected. So basically what we do is our church is full, but we have amazing church partners. So we want to get them connected to a community. Community over there is everything. It’s not like here in America where it’s like, oh, I see people at church every once in a while. These are the people you do life with. And we’re doing numbers now where we don’t have the capacity of our team to monitor 5,000 or 10,000 or 20. I mean, you just can’t do it. So what you do is you find great church partners, pastors. And so I’ll say, hey, Pastor Massey, you have 20 people in your church. You’re doing such a great job. Next week you’re gonna have 120. Okay. And you’re gonna shepherd them. 

Brandon McNace:
If there’s anything that they need or anything like that, I want you to Come to us first or anything like that. And then what we do is we rent housing around that general area of the church, and we pay for six months of housing and food. So $250 on average buys a person, which is crazy to think about. Yeah, we register that contract then with the government, so they get issued basically a kind of like their version of a Social Security number. So they no longer are slaves. They’re actually people at that point. So they have rights guaranteed to them by the constitution at that point. And then we say, you’re going to have six months of housing, six months of food, and here’s church. Great church that we’d love for you to be a part of. 

Brandon McNace:
And, oh, by the way, we’re going to help you get work. Typically what we’ve seen is it takes about one to two months for them to find work. And then we get. Try to help their kids get education and stuff like that because it’s not readily available. Most of them, most of the adults can’t even read or write. And if you’re an educated people, it gives you a huge leap and advantage. Right. And even though we’re doing the numbers, we’re doing, it’s still, I mean, anywhere between 3.5 and 4.5 million, and we’re at shy of 5,000. And we’re the number one, you know, organization doing that work. So it’s a drop in the bucket, but it’s still. It’s still a drop. And so it’s like, how do we continue going forward? And the craziest thing is, we did. We’ll do, like, interviews. 

Brandon McNace:
Hey, how can we do this better? You know, over. When you travel outside of America, you realize pretty quickly most people don’t critical think like we do. They’ll be like, I need to go from A to B. And you’re like, yeah, but what about C? And like, I don’t know. I’m going to, baby. So they think about it one step at a time. And so we go back and we say, hey, can we do anything better? And the last time we had that impromptu interview, this husband, he basically said, I have a life now. This is the. He was smiling, he was crying. He said, I feel like newlyweds. He told us the story of how he said, we used to fight, my wife and I, because his kids have to work making bricks and 110 degrees all day, right? We would fight. 

Brandon McNace:
At the end of the day, who gets to eat? And so he goes, we didn’t have any fun with our kids. We didn’t have fun as a husband and wife. We, were animals. And he’s like crying, telling us this and he starts smiling. He goes, I have a life now, like. And they were looking at each. It looked like they were on a honeymoon. Wow. And he, I said, man, this is amazing. Everybody that’s in the room, the guy, the, you know, guests that I brought, they’re all, every. And everybody’s tearing up, crying, like, this is such a beautiful moment. And I said, well, is there something we can do better? And he goes, there is one change and I’m thinking, great, like we can improve our process. This is awesome. He goes, you did too much for us. And I go, excuse me. 

Brandon McNace:
He goes, within two months, we are fine. So save the other money and go get more people. That was the improvement. And I said, well, we’re going to continue to do six months because we want to make sure you guys are taken care of. And so for anyone listening, there are special occasions that if, like there was a case where a young 15 year old girl, her parents had died, her grandparents had died, she can’t make enough bricks with her family. Two special needs brothers and sisters out of, I think there’s like five kids. She’s now the mom taking care of this family at like 14 or 15, I think. But she can’t make enough bricks, they’re too small. And so she gets approved to go into the city at night and load trucks. 

Brandon McNace:
The reason I noticed her at a church service is because she looked like if anybody’s seen the Mulan movie. Yeah, yeah. So she wants to go to war, but she can’t as a woman. Well, this young girl looks like a boy, like a girlish boy. Well, she had cut her hair, dresses like a boy. Because she goes into the city, she doesn’t want to get raped. And so in an instance like that, we ended up finding a long, like a, basically anti. And help move them to take care of this family or whatever. But instances like that, we want to make sure we do even more. 

Brandon McNace:
Like if you’re a single grandma, everyone else has died and you got six or seven kids, hey, instead of six months, let’s do a year and it’s an extra $25 person, you know, so it doesn’t, it’s very rare that we do that. But also we want to be available to know like there’s not going to be a thing where they’re going to go back. There’s not going to be a thing. People always ask well, are they rounding people up? Well, no, they’re not property anymore. They can’t round them up. And so it’s at that point that their lives begin. And the cool part about it is, you know, compounding interest, right? Compounding people. 

Brandon McNace:
You’re looking at a family that turns into a family that has 20, then it has 50 people that has, you’re sitting there going, an entire lineage of people now are free. Which is, that’s the fun part, like just to see those types of things. 

Jeff Johnson:
So how long has this been going? 

Brandon McNace:
So the first trip, I mean, you were there. The first trip was April of 2022. But on that first trip it was just like I charged my credit card. I want to see what this is all about. And then probably a couple month or two after that is when it kind of, I couldn’t shake it. And so I would say, you know, kind of towards the fall, it kind of shifted, like, oh, this is going to be a thing, a fall of 2022. And so really work, you know, a little over two years now doing this. And it’s just growing. I mean, you’re part of the conversations. It’s just growing like crazy. And our church, I mean, we could, if we built a 10,000 person church, it’d be full of 10,000 people. But our goal isn’t to build it. Like, that’s pride. 

Brandon McNace:
That feels like pride to me. Plus, that’s not really the mission. The mission is freeing people, right? And so how can we have one large, strong church and then empower the rest? And. But the other part of the mission is how can we be good neighbors? So the government has been amazing to work with so far. And you know, we want to help people. When we do feeding programs, if there’s a flood or if there’s, whatever, we’re not saying, hey, are you Christian? We’re looking at going, oh, you’re a person. So I want to be the best neighbor that anybody’s ever had. I want to be a light in the middle of that country and love on everybody. And we’ve just seen the, that pay off because we want to be good stewards of the resources we’re given. 

Brandon McNace:
But on the flip side, we want to impact a region most Americans go. I would never go there. Some of the most amazing people I’ve ever met in my entire life. The stories, the love, the, even the love they have for their country, whether it be for their cricket team or whatever, they just don’t have access to opportunities and so I just look and say, hey, if we’re providing clean water, I don’t say, and I don’t imagine Jesus would say this, hey, real quick, do you believe in me or not? I don’t know if I want to give you some food. Like, it’s like, no, everyone deserves clean water. Everyone deserves food. 

Brandon McNace:
And so our, you know, kind of the goal is we just want to be great partners in this part of the world where most people, they don’t want to go, which is, you know, kind of sad. But I get it, too. 

Jeff Johnson:
So that’s amazing. The when. Why do I want to ask this question? Who goes over with you? 

Brandon McNace:
So typically, it’s, well, how often do. 

Jeff Johnson:
You go and who do you take? 

Brandon McNace:
It’s kind of sporadic. And right now, with all the stuff happening over there, you know, with Iran and stuff like that, it’s just we have to be mindful, you know, of the news and things like that. But, you know, we go over kind of when we need to. The problem is, it’s, you know, so if anybody’s listening that has unlimited miles, that can upgrade me to at least business class. I don’t even need first class. But the hard part is traveling over there. And so it’s. It’s 27 hours, you know, here, and then you finally get over there, and so you kind of feel wiped. It’s, you know, 27 to 30 hours on the way back, usually. And so I’d love to be there more. But also, we want to be good stewards. 

Brandon McNace:
And so, you know, every couple months, we want to at least be there, be with the team, doing stuff like that. But we have such a great team now. We talk. I mean, every day I’m on the phone with the team almost. And so you’re talking about your team. Yeah, team over there. And it’s all locals. You know, we’ve got. How many people paid right now? But our teachers, we’ve got like 13 teachers now that we’re potentially going to kind of. You know, they’re. The cool thing about our partners over there is that they will work as hard as anybody to pay for their own stuff. They hate that, you know, they can’t participate now that the numbers are getting bigger. And so as we develop the school and stuff like that, the teachers will come under all of the stuff. 

Brandon McNace:
But we’ve got probably. I mean, our church of 910 people. I would say there’s probably 70 to 80 people that are dedicated to. If we need to make food, they’re going to make food if we needed to go somewhere if we need to. And literally even our church, we built this church, you know, and we basically tripled the size of our current building. We did in a month and a half. And half the people working there were the people from our church. We, we didn’t pay them to do it. They’re like, this is our mission. 

Brandon McNace:
And so the coolest part about it over there is that, you know, I feel like we have such an amazing team that I don’t have to be there, but as we expand our operations, I can see us, you know, going more over there and things like that, but it’d be different. 

Jeff Johnson:
This is your full time gig? 

Brandon McNace:
Yep. This is what I do. 

Jeff Johnson:
You’re not doing anything else? 

Brandon McNace:
Nope. I mean, speaking at churches and I’ll preach places and stuff like that, but this is the thing and this is not. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, this is amazing. How do you feel walking past local needs over here. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
To go do that work over there. How do you reconcile that? Because there’s, you know, hurting people everywhere and there’s arguably hurting people that are a lot closer to you. 

Brandon McNace:
Yes. I think for me, I just go back to. I’ve helped. I mean, I’ve done a lot of. I’ve been extremely involved in our church. I’m extremely involved in our community in different ways. But when the body is most effective, it’s when everybody’s doing what they are called to do. I have people that, friends that do homeless ministry here and I’ve helped with stuff. I have nothing against it, love it. Right. But I’m specifically called there. Right. And so for me, the hard part, and it is hard sometimes when I look at needs here versus needs over there. And you know, you’ve been to Africa in different parts and stuff like that. There’s not a support system anywhere. 

Brandon McNace:
You know, not that here is perfect, but over there it’s like, oh, I can’t go to the hospital, I’m just going to die in the street type of thing. And so it’s hard for me sometimes to look at needs here. Not that I don’t have empathy, but I sit there and I go, I can buy a person for $250. And so it is, it’s sometimes it’s a little difficult, but I just, I go, this is what God called me to. And so my heart. And I’ve talked to other people that are missionaries or we have tons of people at our church that come. Right. Different countries and they do amazing work Water wells or feeding projects or this and that. And it’s like, it’s all good. 

Brandon McNace:
And so for me, what I tell people is, you know, when I speak places, I’m not saying everyone needs to be a part of Exodus 51, but you need to be a part of something. And so my hope is that I can inspire you with a story of, hey, what does it look like to be fully alive? I feel like I’m more fully alive now than I’ve ever been. I still don’t feel. I feel like there’s more to give, there’s more to risk, there’s more, all of that type of thing. But I’m. I know that I’m stepping into what God’s created me to be. I used to want to, you know, build real estate and do all this type of stuff. I still love that type of thing. But I’m fully alive and challenged in a way like I’m. I can’t imagine anywhere else. 

Brandon McNace:
And so for me, you know, wherever we’re called, that’s where we need to go. There are people that are called to more difficult places than I’m called to go. And as long as we’re following his will for our lives, it may be a. In a business. So, like, hey, man, this is crazy. I’m hearing this, and I feel like I want to do something. I want to impact in a way and do something like this. And God might be calling you to start and create a thriving business because just like, if we’re in war, right, there’s the fighter jet that goes over and does this stuff, but they need the refueling tanker. And so I can’t do any of what I do without people that. That are willing to give. And so as long as we’re all doing our part, you know what? 

Brandon McNace:
There’s people that are interested in things that I’m not interested in at all. But if that’s what God’s called you to do, that’s what you need to do. And that’s going to be the safest place for you and for your family, you know? And so I just look at it. I might be the big toe. I might be the left butt cheek of the body. I don’t know what I am, but I’m doing what God told me to do. I wouldn’t have chosen this. I wouldn’t have even thought of asking for this. But I know that I’m called there. And when you see the alignment, you get to hear the stories. The alignment of what? I’m not doing anything. 

Brandon McNace:
What God is doing there through idiot me and idiot all of us, what God is doing in that country through this organization is it’s, it’s every week, it’s miracles. 

Jeff Johnson:
Let me ask you a, a tough question about the nature of it because this is, these are people that are, you know, they are in slavery. I mean the, that’s the bottom line. This is modern day slavery. And they can’t buy their way out. So they are stuck where they’re at, doing the work that the master tells them to do. How do you reconcile that? 

Brandon McNace:
The hardest thing that I’ve come to grips with or I’ve had to is if I truly believe that God loves all of us. And this was a struggle in the beginning. We have to sometimes go meet, sometimes the team does everything, but sometimes I go meet with the slave owners. And after you hear the stories that I know, and you’re sitting there and you’re watching fathers cry about their young daughters, that you can just imagine all the things that happens and I gotta go shake their hand, say thank you so much for allowing us to be here and blah, all this stuff. And in the beginning it’s like, I want to rip your head off because you’re a monster. And then you have this kind of thought of, well, without Jesus, I’m a monster too. 

Brandon McNace:
And I, you know, I sin, I fall short of that standard because no one can make it right. And so the weird thing is I always just say they’re walking in the light that they have. They, they don’t know anything else. Their grandpa, their father, great grandpa, all this, that, this, it’s like you inheriting your, you know, your business, steel business, they don’t know anything else. And so you’re sitting there going, instead of me hating them, I, how can I love them? And that’s been the hardest thing really for me to get over. And the other part is there has been some hard things that have happened to us over there. And you want to get mad at certain organizations. The government’s actually been great to work with and the police, they’ve all been fantastic. 

Brandon McNace:
But there’s some other organizations that are doing work over there. And you’re sitting there going, aren’t we all on the same team here? And that’s the part where it’s like, it gets a little disheartening sometimes. But you’re sitting there going, I’m not responsible for anybody else’s actions. I’m responsible for what we’re called to do and creating an impact. And so I think the more I get to spend time over there, you realize. And when you start talking to these people that you’re like, I mean, 98% of them are Muslim, and they have backgrounds that are nothing like me. They have their shared experiences. We don’t really have much. And. But when you start talking to people, you’re like, oh, really? We’re kind of the same in certain ways, you know? 

Brandon McNace:
And so the love that I have for the people over there has definitely changed. And that has been the hardest thing in the beginning. The first. Probably that first year in 2022 is really hard for me to. How do I go shake this person’s hand when I hate them right now? 

Jeff Johnson:
And you said you see other Christian organizations over there operating, but they’re not doing. 

Brandon McNace:
There’s your doing. There’s some really. And I won’t name. There’s some people over there doing things. And then you’ll ask the people that, hey, you should know about xyz. They’re like, oh, we’ve never heard of them. And there’s. Pastors will come to these brick kilns and take videos and do all stuff. And, hey, we’re going to fundraise. And we’re. And these slaves will say they’ll never. They never come back. And so there’s just a lot of. It’s like this everywhere, though. It’s. Go to Africa. I mean, get stuff into the airport. We got to give this one 10 bucks. You got to. And so there’s just a lot of that. And so it’s hard even. Even from that standpoint where you’re like, but that’s just how it is. It’s just. It’s different. And so it’s really hard to sometimes see that. 

Brandon McNace:
And you realize, like, things are maybe worse than you thought. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s careful. You got to be careful not to turn into a cynic in a situation. 

Brandon McNace:
You get bitter and you. Whatever. And it’s like, you know what? God called me here and so, all right, what do you want me to see? And then the big thing is, we should be doing this here, too. God, how do you want me to look at this person? There’s a ton of people here that I disagree with a lot of things through various roles and things that I do. But they’re still. God loves them. And so it’s like, how can I love you through that? And. And I think it’s. For me, it’s. When I come back here, the issues that we deal with that everybody gets fired up about. Whatever side of the spectrum they’re on, I’m sitting here going, eh, it’s not really that big of a deal. Like, I’ve seen way worse stuff. 

Brandon McNace:
And so for me, it’s kind of probably developed a kind of capacity in me to maybe love a little bit easier than I typically before, I’d like, just get fired up and be mad, you know, Jes. 

Jeff Johnson:
I mean, about that topic, though, and we won’t go into the detail of it, but I was sharing with you about a friend of mine who’s had a. I mean, a situation. He was reaching out to me for a little bit of counsel. And it’s a. It’s a impoverished part of the world. It’s a part of the world that’s met with a lot of tragedy. And it broke my heart, you know, reading through some of these stories of people that are. That are having a really difficult time. And it actually put me to shame because I’ve been spending the last couple of days adding up my woes, you know, which don’t amount to anything compared to somebody else’s. So I guess that’s what you’re talking about too. 

Jeff Johnson:
You know, you see this stuff, you go over there to Pakistan and you see these little kids and these moms and dads and these uncles and aunts and whoever in these brick kilns, and it breaks your heart. You can’t. You can’t unsee it. And I just say, Brandon, I say, praise God that he picked you because, you know, he’s looking for. God’s looking for people that are willing to go do the work. And you were willing to go do the work. What happens when you take people with you? 

Brandon McNace:
It. I mean, there’s a full spectrum of. I try to, you know, condition them as best I can, but we’ve taken a couple people over and it’s just like. I mean, just some of the deepest cry. I mean, just. It’s. It’s an emotional thing. And it’s kind of weird because I go back to the, you know, the first time. Go back. Listen, the first episode. But the first time that I was there, I was all alone. I’ve never seen any of this stuff. And I remember just getting back to my hotel room and just weeping and just crying like, this can’t be real. And then every trip, it’s almost like you’re a little bit more calloused or whatever. A little. 

Brandon McNace:
And so when you go there and some of the people have made comments like, hey, why aren’t these people excited when you set them free. Some of them, it’s like there’s nothing in their eyes. They’ve just been beaten, raped and whatever, their whole lives. And they’re like they’ve lost their humanity almost. It kind of feels like there’s just no. It’s like, do you have a soul? Like there’s. It’s like a robot. You’re looking at robots and you realize pretty quickly, I don’t live this every day. And the few times that I go over and spend time with their, I’ve grown. I don’t really. It takes a lot for me to cry over there now. I just, I don’t anymore. I’m used to it. Right. And that’s kind of a weird, almost scary thing. Like, how am I used to this? 

Brandon McNace:
But it gives you another appreciation for like, okay, I have to take myself back to the first trip. And so there’s some people that go over there that it’s just, it’s really tough. If you have daughters or kids, it’s like, do not put yourself. Like, that’s not you. Because you want to. Like, I want to empathize, so I want to like, we’ve been taught, like, hey, put yourself in their position. So you think about like, what would you do if it was your kid? And that’ll mess with you. And then on the flip side, I’ve taken people over there that have seen stuff all over the world and they’re like, yeah, this, it’s like, this is the, some of the craziest stuff we’ve seen. But like, this doesn’t surprise us at all. Like this, you know, this happens everywhere. 

Brandon McNace:
What you realize pretty quickly is that I just always tell people we are so blessed to live here. 

Jeff Johnson:
Like, totally. 

Brandon McNace:
Like there is go anywhere else and we, the things that we take for granted. Like, I can drink water without filtering it here. Yeah, all of those things that you sit there and you go, I can’t imagine, you know, living that way. But what I would say is that the people that we have taken, very strategic partners and things like that their lives are changed. Like, everything changes. You see things a completely different way. And there’s never been someone that’s gone that hasn’t been like, that was the. Probably one of the most life changing trips I’ve ever experienced. So that part is really cool. But on the flip side, the part that really does your head in and it’s hard for me to, like, it’s 110 degrees, 70 something percent humidity. Like you’re you feel like you’re in a sauna. 

Brandon McNace:
These people are working, you know, I don’t know, 8 to 18 hours a day. Their 2 year olds are working, they’re getting beaten, they’re whatever. They’re some of the happiest people. Like, it does your head in. Like, they’re grateful that God loves them. They’re grateful. And you’re sitting there going, I’m mad because the barista screwed up on my order and I have too much ice in my like. And you realize pretty quickly you’re like, I. I think it’s done more to teach me about. I’m selfish. Like, we just, we don’t experience anything like that. And you’re like. And so people are like, man, you have so much faith. I don’t know if I could live like they live and still love God like they do. I don’t know. 

Brandon McNace:
Like, that’s crazy to see what they go through and them to god loves us so much. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, I want to ask you a question about this. John 10:10. The devil came to steal, kill and destroy, but I came to give you life and life in abundance. This is John 10:10, Jesus talking. So that life and life in abundance. When you go to a place like Pakistan and you see the kind of things that you do and your heart is wrecked the way that it is, does it ruin you for being able to come back and enjoy your life? Because I’m sure that there’s a lot of people that are, that have very nice things. I mean, I remember hearing Mother Teresa say, you know, well, I’m not going to try to quote it because I would get her wrong, but something along the lines of you have nice things and somebody else is starving halfway around the world. 

Jeff Johnson:
How do you, how do you reconcile that verse with what you’ve seen in Pakistan and how you’re spending your life? 

Brandon McNace:
I think part of it is my wife. She kind of holds because I’m like the all in type of person. And I remember coming back after the first trip and we gave up a lot to chase after this thing. And so I don’t make the money like I used to when I was in the business sector and just different things like that. And so I remember getting back and then she wanted to do something and she’s like, the boys have been really good and so we’re going to go up to the local gas station and we’re going to go get some candy or whatever. I was like, do you really need. And she’s like, stop, don’t do this. And so I tell people. There’s an amazing movie, I love it, called Machine Gun Preacher with Gerard Butler. 

Jeff Johnson:
Seen it. 

Brandon McNace:
And he gets lost in his mission. And all of us can get lost in business. All of us can get lost in our mission, and we lose our family in the process. You know, we’ve talked about this in our Bible study before and stuff, but it’s like, you. You’re. But it’s all good. It’s good for me to do this. It’s good for me or whatever. And then you sit there and you go, but I don’t want my kids to resent me serving God. And so in the beginning, it was kind of hard, but on the flip side, I look at it now. I’m just so. I try to live so grateful now. That stuff just doesn’t. I mean, not this stuff doesn’t bother me, but it takes a lot to really get me worked up now. 

Brandon McNace:
And so I just look at our life here, and I’m just in constant awe. And sometimes I just feel bad. You know what I mean? I just feel bad that we have so much, but that doesn’t mean I was. We need to sell everything. Like, I don’t believe that, you know? And I think people get lost in the mission, but at the end of the day, I think that’s where it’s, like, really big to have a partner in this. And where my wife goes, hey, in the same respect, she goes, if you feel called to go over there, I’m 100% support you. But then when I get back, and I’m like, hey, we should sell everything. She’s like, hold on. Like, I want a house for our kids and I want to do. And I’m like, okay. 

Brandon McNace:
So she kind of balances out the craziness. And I think it’s like, this is not a sprint. This is a long race, right? And so it’s like Paul talks about, this is this race that we’re running. And so I think for me, in the beginning, all this stuff was extremely hard. And I’ve had to work through a lot of this, through prayer, through talking with friends. And, you know, there’s a lot of people that go see a lot of bad things. I mean, you go, like, if. For example, there’s always going to be a homeless person wherever we, like, you go in any major city, right? And so it’s like, well, should I sell my car to make and give that guy all the money? I don’t know. Like, if you’re supposed to do that, sure, there’s always going to be need. 

Brandon McNace:
There’s always going to be stuff. And on the flip side, it’s like, for my birthday, I had a friend who has a lake house, and we spent two days at his lake house. And I was like, man, this is so amazing. You know, I get to hang out here and stuff. I wasn’t mad that he has a lake house. I love that my friends have been successful. Like, that doesn’t make me angry. But I also don’t think, hey, you should sell this to do it. I just think that’s where people are probably out of balance. And at the end of the day, all need to do is focus on our race. Jeff needs to focus on Jeff’s race. What’s Jeff’s family called to do? What’s my family called to do? 

Brandon McNace:
And at the end of the day, like, I just don’t worry about any of that stuff. But in the beginning, it was a little. It was almost like I felt bad for enjoying life, if that makes sense. Because I’m sitting there going, I know what’s happening to them. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Well, that’s why I asked the question. And I think that’s wonderful the way that you just answered that. So what I’m taking from what you just said is it’s enhanced your gratitude for what it is that you have 100. So there’s your joy right there. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
And it was. And the catalyst of it was following God’s will for your life and going to Pakistan all by yourself. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
When you thought, this is crazy. But I know that I’m supposed to go here. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. It was like that tractor beam that’s pulling you in. I’m like, I don’t. People are like, man, it’s so cool. It’s like, I didn’t want to go there. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
Like, it wasn’t like, you know what? I’m going to go there. This is going to be so much fun. I didn’t want to, but it’s like, I couldn’t not go. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
Like, I’d rather go fill up stadiums and preach around the world and do, you know, be the next Billy Graham. You know, that. That was really what I was thinking I was going to do. And then God goes, whammy. I’m going to give you a new thing. I’m going to give you something, and I’m going to call you to a people that are unseen, unheard, forgotten. And so what it does is it kind of checks me because I have pride still. And then it’s like, I’ll guarantee I wasn’t even God’s first choice. Like, there’s no way. Like, there’s probably other people. Yes. And they’re like, I don’t want to go there. Like, I’m. I’m sure of it. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
And so I’m just grateful that I could be used. And we talk about this all the time. It’s like, if we didn’t do a single thing more, I’ve already done more than I ever thought I will for that part of the world. Like, yeah, this is crazy. So I just try to live great. Like, just full of gratitude, just as humble as I can. I would say it’s easier following a trip. Then you kind of get back in the swing of things here, and then you go back over, and you’re just like, oh, yeah, I forgot. And so it’s. It’s a good reminder for me. Kind of like, you know, hey, when you pray, hit your knees. I don’t want it. Well, try it. And there’s just a different level of like, I just want to be a servant. 

Brandon McNace:
I just want to be God. I just want to be used by you. And so it’s like all this stuff, like, you know, David would say, God, search my heart. So it’s like, I always have to be on the lookout because there’s always stuff that I have to work on. 

Jeff Johnson:
I. When you’re around somebody, though, I’m gonna give you a compliment here, and I’m gonna praise God for this. When you’re around somebody that’s following God’s will, that’s doing what it is that they were put here to do, maybe it’s just for a season, too, or maybe it’s for the rest of your life. I don’t know. Only God knows. But when you see somebody operating in that joy is so attractive. I mean, you just. It draws you in, and I think that encourages everybody else around you. Have you seen that in anybody? 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve got. It’s. It’s odd enough there’s. I talk about our team over there. They. I would say out of all the people that inspire me, it’s them. The stuff that they. I hate. People are always like, oh, you have so much faith. I’m like, you haven’t met my team. Like, I say that all the time. Like, you. You. 

Jeff Johnson:
These guys. 

Brandon McNace:
Oh, my gosh, they’re. I’ll tell it. So one of our. Kind of. One of our main people over there. So over the Middle east, everyone kind of like, builds a bedroom onto the house, you know, and everybody kind of just all lives together, right? And so in this bedroom, you’re sitting there, and they’re like, as my family grows, I have this huge bed, and everybody just like, sleeps in the bed. Maybe they’ll have a couch or something there, but just a huge bed. And everybody kind of just sleeps in the bed. And you’re like, man, I get annoyed when my wife kicks me. I can’t imagine having. Whatever. So one of our main people over there, I was talking to him on the phone, and it was like, you know, it’s always like the opposite, you know. 

Brandon McNace:
So it’s middle of the night over there, and so I’m talking, and all of a sudden I see these. I’m like, who’s. Wait, who’s in. Who are those people in your bedroom? He’s like, oh, you didn’t. I didn’t tell you. I was like, what do you mean? He goes, I adopted two more kids. And I was like, huh, What? He’s like, I was like, yeah, I know the other two. So you have four kids now? Yeah. I mean, they didn’t have parents. And so people like, you know, we had friends just adopt and. And I said, there’s certain. You know, this is where my wife has to balance me a little bit. But there’s certain things now where I go, I don’t know if God needs to tell me to do certain things. Like, people like, I gotta. 

Brandon McNace:
I don’t know about this adoption thing. Blah, blah. And it’s like, you meet these people over there, like, well, they don’t have parents. Why would. They’re not praying. God, should I. If I can help a little bit, should I try to help? They’re going, all right, and they just help. They just. Like our new. When we built out the new school and all this type of stuff, I look on top of the school and I’m like, what are these rooms for? I’m like, well, we still want to be able to take people off the street and homeless people. And I’m like, that’s just how they think. We need to be a blessing to everybody else. And you’re sitting there going, man, as much as I want, I have friends here that are amazing and doing what they’re doing. 

Brandon McNace:
But I would say the people over there’s such a sacrificial group of people that don’t, like. Part of it is they don’t critically, like, they’re not going, man, I won’t be able to make my 401k contribution. They don’t have one. And they’re just like, hey, we need to serve these people. We need to help these people. Hey, we need to do this. Hey, we need to do that. And you’re like, my first go to is me. And their first go to is everybody else. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
And so it’s such an amazing thing to be around people that are so sacrificial like that. And then they’re like, well, it says in the Bible, blah, blah. And I’m like, it does say that. And because you’re like in awe of these people. And they’re like, well, this is what this scripture says this. And they just read everything. It’s just. It is what it is. And so what we do is we over here, at least what I’ve seen, we try to say it’s not really. Sometimes it’s not black and white. There’s some grays there, so I don’t really know if I should do. And it’s like, no, the Bible says this. So, like, love your neighbor. Well, not every neighbor. I don’t really know. Like that guy, he’s bad. And it’s like over there, they’re just so matter of fact. And it’s. 

Brandon McNace:
They always say stuff like, our. Our lives are supposed to glorify God. That’s how they think. So I’m sitting here going, okay, well what does that look like? And we get so busy with stuff over here that I’m like, I don’t know, the sporting events, the keeping our yard looking, all of this other stuff. Which is fine, trust me. I like a nice yard. I like the sporting stuff. I want my kids to enjoy. But you’re over there you go, man. They live a life where they just don’t have any of that stuff, but they don’t even know what they’re missing. It’s just, it’s such a weird. Anybody that’s traveled anywhere like that, you’re like, they don’t even know what they’re missing because they don’t know. Like, people are like, how could people have kids? As in slavery? 

Brandon McNace:
We’ve met some people that are like, we’re not gonna have kids. Like, we’re committing. We’re not getting married, we’re not doing any of this stuff. And then you. They’re like, I’ve had people say, well, I would never do that. They don’t know that you could be free. So it’s not even a thing that enters their mind. They’re going to live their life in slavery. It’d be like, you know about the steel business, you’re born into it. So it’s like from an outsider’s like, man, that’s pretty crazy, this. And you’re like, well, that’s what I grew up around. So it’s like for them, I mean, it’s a horrible example. But the gist of it is they don’t know. What do you mean? Freedom. No one gets freed. They don’t think about being freed. Yeah, that’s not a thing. 

Brandon McNace:
And so they’re living their life the same way we would live our life here. And it’s just in slavery. So it’s just a weird thing to see this. You want to talk about polar opposites of like, what we live it. Yeah, it’s just, it’s a lot sometimes. 

Jeff Johnson:
We’Ve talked a lot about courage already without putting a fine point on it here in this episode and this little catch up with you. And I’m excited because this is the first time since this podcast started that I’m able to ask somebody this question that I’ve asked already once before. So I get to ask it this way. Brandon, what is the most courageous thing you’ve done since the last time I talked to you? You think about that. 

Brandon McNace:
Well, that’s a doozy. Thanks for letting me know you’re going to ask that question. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s the courageous crossroads. 

Brandon McNace:
You know, honestly, something I’ve thought about recently. When we take our. We get used to everything in our life, in business and whatever, and you kind of develop a new normal, right? So let’s say you work out, you start and you’re like, I couldn’t even make it. I couldn’t walk a mile. And then you start running. You’re like, you get used to that new normal, right. And you’re like thinking, oh, I could never do an eight minute mile. I can never do whatever. And you’re constantly kind of like trying to move forward. Same thing in business. I look back, I’m like, I don’t know how I’m doing what I’m doing now. I would have freaked me out if you would have said the numbers we’re doing now. I’m like, there’s no way we could. Well, it’s going to continue to happen. 

Brandon McNace:
So kind of, I don’t know, the kind of, the weirdest thing that I’ve been trying to deal with is we’ve had a tremendous level of success and, you know, success in quotation. Right. But in things that we set goals for, we’ve Surpassed everything by a long shot. And so the dreams, though, get bigger. What we feel like we’re called to gets bigger. And I’ve been trying to challenge myself. I started recently when we talked about, like, our campus that we want to build and all the. The number, everything’s getting bigger. And I remember before where it was the running joke was like, hey, if we can’t pay off the credit card this month, Brandon’s gonna sell his truck, you know, whatever. And it’s like. 

Brandon McNace:
But then when the numbers get bigger, you start to see the bank account, and you go, this feels really good. Because the account balance, we’re not like, hey, we can’t make the payment. You know, whatever. We don’t have that feeling. But then the other things you’re called to do get just as big, if not even bigger, right? And so I’ve had this point of, like, it just keeps getting bigger. And so you’re sitting here going, this large campus project that we’re dreaming about and planning for. I’m like, there’s no way. And so it’s. The weirdest thing is the same level of fear that I had in the beginning where I was like, I’m going to sell my truck. It’s like, come back again. And I was kind of mad at first that, why am I like, it’s. It’s on me. 

Brandon McNace:
I don’t have faith in God. I don’t have. Whatever. And we have. You know, we started having savings. We don’t ever have savings, you know, and. And then we had a crazy year where we’ve set way more people free than ever. And so all of that money. We still have a little bit of money, but it’s like all the stuff that we thought was gonna be our. At least for me, the cushion. Oh, it feels really good. It’s like, no, go out and get more people. And so, honestly, one of the hardest things for me to deal with is I go back to what is really having faith. And every person has to deal with this. But it’s like, when things go really well, it feels really good to see the dollar amount go up. But that’s not what does anything. 

Brandon McNace:
You’re sitting there going, it’s God. It’s always God. And so when you talk about millions of dollars for a campus, I sit there and go, the. The hardest thing for me to process is we’ve never failed at anything we’ve attempted. That’s going to sound. That’s not arrogant at all. Everything that we’ve set a goal for, everything that We’ve said that we wanted to do everything we’ve hit and surpassed. And in my head I go, well, this is gonna be the first one that we can’t get. And so what I’m doing is limiting God. And I’m going back to kind of what I was before. Like, I gotta constantly live in faith. So right now, from a personal standpoint, I’m trying to really challenge myself of what I wanna do is hunker down and protect what we’ve built. 

Brandon McNace:
And it’s really been hard for me the last couple months of going. But that’s not the mission. The mission isn’t comfortable. The mission is for me to be in an area. So when you talk about courage and talk about faith, you talk about all these words. If I ever feel comfortable that, oh, I can do this, then I’m not stepping out in faith. So I have to always in the num, everything switches over and gets bigger and bigger. I have to always challenge myself to. If Brandon can do this, on it. And people will go, there’s no way Brandon could do that. That’s what they said in the beginning. There’s no way. This is crazy. Well, it’s gone pretty well. And now we start talking about a campus. What do you mean you’re going to build? No one’s done that. No one’s done this. 

Brandon McNace:
No. Yeah. How are you going to get that? I have zero clue. I don’t have any idea how we’re going to. But God said to go do this. So this last trip, we signed a deal. We got 12 months to come up with a number that I don’t deal with numbers like this. I deal with, hey, let’s cancel our Netflix account to save some money this month. And so you’re sitting here going, but this isn’t my dream. This is God’s. So. But it makes you. It’s really hard. It’s hard to quantify to people or explain this. I get scared of it not working. That’s one of the realest fears I have, is this not working out. And people are like, what are you talking about? But it’s like the things are bigger and so we haven’t ever dealt with a dream not happening. 

Brandon McNace:
And it’s a. It sounds silly, probably to people, but it’s scary because I’m sitting here like, it always works. Everything always. 

Jeff Johnson:
So the. The courage in the beginning was to follow God. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah. Step out. 

Jeff Johnson:
Doesn’t make any sense. And the courage now, since the last thing is to continue following God. 

Brandon McNace:
If I’m not putting myself in a position to risk at a level that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don’t feel like I’m doing it right. 

Jeff Johnson:
Is that true for everybody? 

Brandon McNace:
I don’t know. Sometimes people are like, you’re crazy. Like, this doesn’t make any sense. And I. I don’t know. I ever. If I’m not risking it, then I’m not thinking big enough. I don’t know. It’s. It’s. And again, I don’t. It probably isn’t for everybody because there are certain people that probably wouldn’t sleep at night, wouldn’t. Whatever. It would be horrible for their marriage, all this type of stuff. Now my stress has gone up, definitely, but I can compartmentalize this pretty well. And so I think we should all be risking something. All be stepping out. At the end of my life, I don’t want to look back. I’ve preached about this before to, like, youth group and stuff, but I don’t want to have shouldas, couldas, and wouldas. And so what does it look like to live a life that’s fully alive? 

Brandon McNace:
And that means I step into situations that I don’t know how it’s going to happen. And if I can, in my little pea brain, we can get a business plan together and we talk about how this all works. And if I can make it all work in my head, then I go, it’s not big enough. That’s just how I’ve always thought. One of our board members in particular, like, so if you travel, if anybody’s ever traveled with me, they’ll know this. I’m always like, hey, can we get a free upgrade? I’ve never. I’ve never traveled business class. And I’m thinking, I’m never gonna pay for that, but maybe someday somebody’s gonna give me a free. 

Brandon McNace:
Like, I just always think, like, if anybody’s ever travel in a plane, imagine being in the back of the plane where you could hand somebody a roll of toilet paper in the bathroom. That’s my seat. And so these long flights of 11, 12, 30. I mean, these long flights, you’re like, man, it’d be really nice. And so every time at every stop, this particular person that goes with me a lot, he goes, you’re just a lot. And I’m always like, hey, do you have any business class upgrades? And they’re. Every single time they’ve said no. But I’ve always, like, lived like that. Like, I wonder how this could work out. I wonder, like, you know, $4 million for this land. You know what? 

Brandon McNace:
Somebody could walk up to me today and just give me a check for it and just say, hey, man, I don’t know why. I just feel like I want to get this land. And this particular person goes, I don’t know what it’s like to live in your mind. This is crazy. I have this, like. Remember the story you shared where I think you shared in the first episode where you’re like, I was grabbing the chair. Like, this is how I feel. You know, that’s how I feel now. I literally. I’m gonna jump out of the plane and go, all right, where’s the parachute? And that’s a really weird thing to. But I would say is. It probably looks haphazard to some. 

Brandon McNace:
But if you’ve seen God come through in my head, this is gonna sound maybe a little weird, but I always think, am I leaving something on the table? It bugs me because I’m sitting here going, man, look what we’ve been able to do. And then I go, could we have done more? It’s a really weird feeling of, like, we set numbers when we set people free. Should we have done more? Should we have gone to zero? Should we have gone to negative whatever and said, hey, we got a month for the. You know, that’s the thing that bugs me. And so I just. I don’t want to leave anything on the table. And so it. It’s probably not healthy maybe to. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, no. My friend Rachel, just as an example and to respond to what you’re saying here you loud and clear. My friend Rachel, who I interviewed a couple of podcasts ago, she talked about the freedom that came once she got beyond her uber financial stability. You know, she had to get rid of some things so that she could get untethered, so that she could trust God. Which is a wonderful thing to say, but it’s a different thing to do. I mean. And that’s where you’re living. 

Brandon McNace:
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, it’s. It’s. Again, I am more fully alive than I’ve ever been in my entire life, and it’s the most uncomfortable I’ve ever been. But, you know, honestly, as we grow, I am not an organized person. I am not. There’s a lot of things I am. People like, man, he sounds great. I am not good at a lot of things. You can talk to my wife, right? I’m just. There’s certain things I’m not good at. And so it’s. How do I surround myself with people that are extremely Organized and putting up plans. Now I’m the guy that if, like we’re going to do an event or something, like our first fundraising event, we did the person that helped us a ton, you know, Pastor Zach. I was the guy that’s like, we’re going to do this. 

Brandon McNace:
What if we did this? And I’m like, living in the clouds. And he’s like, what can we actually do? Like, what can we actually accomplish? So I need people to like, bring me down. And so my personality has kind of always been like that. Probably I’m just a big dreamer. But I can dream so much, I never get anything done. And so the constant struggle is, all right, how do you execute this thing? And so that’s where it really gets nerve wracking to me because I don’t nes. I don’t have it. I don’t know. I don’t know how you execute on this stuff. We can make the best decisions that we have with the information in front of us, move forward. But it’s not like there’s a one one dummy is how to rescue slaves. 

Brandon McNace:
Like every week, you know this, there’s always a story. And it’s like, oh, what do we do now? It’s like, I don’t pray. Like, what makes the most sense to us? How do we do this? I don’t know. And you glean as much as you can from people and business owners and things like that. But at the end of the day, it’s, well, you want to sell your truck again, Brandon? Like, it’s one of those things where I think I just, I don’t know if we’re supposed to be that comfortable. And I think when we get comfortable, it just does something to you. And you almost like when people go, man, I can’t wait to, like, I don’t save for my retirement. I haven’t done that for years. Like, there’s nothing for me to save. Like, so it’s like. 

Brandon McNace:
And I started going, what if I, like if I retired? Like, the old dream was, I have a lake house, I have this. I get to golfing. I get to go, whatever. And I’m like, I like all that stuff, but it also sounds kind of boring. And to me, I go, if the goal is for me to do something where I can go and just. I love golfing. Don’t hear me, But I don’t. I do, but like, I golf every day. Oh, I should play. Start on the seventh old today. I wonder if that. That seems boring, right? And also, what does that show my kids. I’m not leaving them any legacy. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Brandon McNace:
I’m not leaving them. I want them to risk it and do different things. So for me, I just sit here and go, what does it look like? And I’m not doing a great job of it all the time. And that’s when fear comes in. Like, I don’t want to risk it. I don’t want to. Some of the rooms that I’ve been invited to, I’ve shared this with you know, privately. Sometimes I feel like I don’t belong places. I used to rub shoulders and do all that stuff. And then. But that’s really what that is fear, and it’s pride. Like, I don’t equal up to whatever. But then as you start to talk to people, you realize most people, it’s the same challenge. It’s just a different atmosphere. It’s just a different place. Right? Yeah, I get comfortable. It’s really easy to be comfortable. 

Brandon McNace:
But I don’t want to live that way. They did a study. It’s like a bunch of nurses did this comprehensive study, or like thousands of people. And there’s two regrets everyone had in their life. I wish I would have spent more time with my family, and I wish I would have taken more risks. For me right now, it’s. How do I challenge myself to spend more time with my boys? And that’s. That’s really a battle, because it’s like, I probably should call this person. I probably should. Whatever. And they’re going, hey, let’s go disc golfing. You’re like, I can’t. Like, what do you mean? Why can’t you? And so that’s really. The challenge is like, we can do all of these things, but at the end of the day, it’s God doing all this stuff. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
And so how do I love them in proportion? Because you’ve probably struggled with this, too, as you’re building and trying different things. What I want to do naturally is put my head down and go. And my wife goes, hey, remember me? And so I can’t do that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Brandon McNace:
So how am I. How do I still stay involved in things here versus. My brain’s always over there, always thinking about that, because that’s. That doesn’t benefit anybody. And it’ll burn you out. You know, I go back again. If anybody hasn’t watched it. The Machine Gun Preacher, that thing at the end, he has fun again. Remember, he lost all the. All the joy, everything. And then he. That ending scene with him kicking that soccer ball. And you’re sitting there going, at the end of the day, if none of this works, if it all fails, I can live in an apartment that’s not that big of a deal. Like, I can. I can live in Jeff’s basement, you know, whatever. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Brandon McNace:
That’s not that. If that’s the worst case scenario of me losing whatever little bit I have, that’s not that big of a deal. But I have the ability to impact somebody’s life forever. That’s a big deal. 

Jeff Johnson:
I did an exercise. You were partially motivating me to do this. You don’t know that, but. And I shared it with you. 

Brandon McNace:
Okay. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m just being vulnerable. I wrote two obituaries for myself. One of them was if I lived a life based on fear, where I was just protective and uber comfortable, and I was just afraid. And then the other one was if I lived a life. And I got a little bit of a assist from my good friend Chat GPT. Not a whole bunch, but a little bit to help, you know, make. Edit it and make the thing look right. But it was. That was an interesting exercise for me because the fear obit was short and to the point and very nice and very polite and very okay. But the faith obit was where all the fire was, where all the joy was. 

Brandon McNace:
They were substantially different when you read them as well. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
One made you smile. The other one goes, oh, he left something on the table. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
I go back to. I mean, since we’re talking about you a little bit here, it’s. I mean, there’s amazing stories, but the one that, like, always just sticks out is, do you remember, I think Meredith was sick in Minnesota or something, and you drove up like, you, like, had work, had whatever, and you just, like, left and brought her some soup just to say, hey, I hope you’re doing okay. Give her a hug. Here’s soup. And he drove back to Iowa. Y And I was sitting there going, it’s like that. So what people in business want to do is they’re like, what’s the roi? We’ve talked about this in board meetings. What’s the roi? How do you’re investing in these people that can’t get. What’s the roi? You probably won’t see this ROI on this side of heaven. Yeah, that’s. I want. 

Brandon McNace:
And everyone tries to calculate, is this worth it? And my thing is, I look at a story, like, with you and Meredith, you would say, well, it’s worth it 100%. And to you, it makes sense. And that’s really when I Explain this to people. It’s a story like that. None of this makes sense. You don’t know what I feel like. I can’t describe it to you, and this sounds a little selfish, and it probably is. I literally get to go over and free people from slavery, and I look them in their eyes, tell them. Some of them start crying because they never thought it was possible. And they’re hugging you. They’re laughing, they’re crying. It is a drug. It is the most amazing thing. It’s just this. It’s pure joy in all of the best forms of it. 

Brandon McNace:
And you sit there and you have these moments with your kid. You know, when you have a moment like that where you’re like, I don’t know what my impact is as a father, but I would hope if there’s a situation like that, or I’m just gonna drive over, you know, she’s. She’s at college, and I just want to say hello. And you’re like, yeah, Jeff, you got a company to run. You got. Whatever. And you’re like, yeah, that’ll be there. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
And so my whole thing is there’s all these people, you know, that adventures, the heart retreat we go on. If you can’t have a couple days where you don’t answer your phone, then you haven’t set up your business, Right? 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
Like, you should be able to step away. But no, this is my baby. No, I know that’s your baby, but there’s a ton of other kids in your life. There’s a ton. Your marriage or whatever. And so it’s like, how do I intentionally. Because I’m not wired to intentionally go after and do so. Like, I’m grateful for your mentorship and friendship and all that, because, you know, even that. That story, I don’t know if you’ve ever shared it publicly. That one with Noah, that one sticks in my head. Where you’re trying to leave the house. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
It’s like, no, I got to go to work. And he’s going, no, dad, what are you doing? Like, that is, like, seared into my brain, because that’s what I do all the time. 

Jeff Johnson:
And. 

Brandon McNace:
And you’re sitting there going, none of it’s bad. And I can justify all of it, but at the end of the day, part of the taking risks is doing things that I can’t quantify this roi. I don’t know why. I have friends that, like, they’re super busy, and they’re like, I’m gonna coach my kids baseball team, and I’m like, what? Why? I don’t know. I’m just gonna. And I’m like, it doesn’t make any sense. You know, someone else can do it. And they’re like, no, I need to do it. Or being on the school board, that doesn’t do. It’s not necessarily worth it on paper, but I know that I was supposed to. You know, it’s those types of things. And so I think maybe that’s a better way of describing the risk is like, how do we intentionally go after. 

Brandon McNace:
How are you loving your kids and loving your wife? And that’s really, for me, a growth area, because I don’t prioritize that all the time. And so ROI can’t be. We’ve been trained. On the flip side, everyone else doesn’t critically think. I think here we’ve been trained. Does A plus B equals C? If C is not where I want it, well, then I got to change the inputs and whatever. It’s like, no. You are called to do things from God as a father and a husband that you will not probably see the impact of because you don’t know what that does. What did that do to Meredith’s heart? Yeah, good luck having her even be able to explain that. But she knows you love her, and so I think that’s probably a good way of, like, all of this stuff. 

Brandon McNace:
It’s not about the return on investment. Like, I’m never gonna tell somebody. I will say, you spend a dollar with us is probably the best dollar you could ever spend in any nonprofit. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Brandon McNace:
In terms of impact immediate, all that type of stuff. But I’m never going to be like, hey, if you give us a million dollars this month, you’re going to get back a million dollars. That’s not true. Like, so anybody that says that they. That’s not true. But I can tell you there. There will be a return. It may be when you get to heaven and you’re like, I just want to go through those pearly gates. I just want to meet my creator. And you’re like, there’s 120,000 Pakistani people that I have to high five every one of these people for. It’s like, I just want to. It’s like, I want to make sure when I get on the other side that literally there’s going to be things that we have the opportunity. 

Brandon McNace:
All of us, each and every day have the opportunity to create impact in so many places, but we put our head down, and we don’t see these opportunities. We don’t. If you didn’t Drive up to Meredith to give her that thing of soup. She wouldn’t have been mad at you. Probably wouldn’t even crossed her mind that my dad would go drive up here. But after you did. Changes everything. And so I think that’s how I. How can we live our life that way? Intentional. And Chad, I don’t know, you should probably interview Chad at some point, but that’s one of the most intentional people I’ve ever met. So intentionality, that’s not something that I might risk and I might do that type of stuff, but I don’t. Intentional. I’m not very intentional. Like where you. 

Brandon McNace:
Like when you do the whole thing with your kids where you write the books and you give it to them, like when they grab. I would never do that, like until I’m around you. Like the book you have about your wife, all the things you love about her. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s right. 

Brandon McNace:
Like that stuff challenges me because I don’t. I would not naturally. I don’t know where you learned that stuff, but that wasn’t something I’ve ever been exposed to. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, there’s a lot. Okay, so there’s a lot of rabbit trails there that we can cover on subsequent podcasts. But I want to come back to this opportunity for our listeners here and we’re going to wrap it up here. But if God has given you a little bit of a nudge, saying this sounds like something that I want to be a part of and this is an exciting thing, you can, wherever you’re listening to this from, whatever your situation is, you can free somebody from slave. You can change somebody’s life for less than 300 bucks. And Brandon, how do they do that? 

Brandon McNace:
So Exodus, the book in the Bible, Exodus 51, the number 51.org so Exodus 51. Org, you can give there we have PO Box. So if you have done our advice fund or want to write a check, because I have certain people that are like, I don’t trust, it’s. That’s fine. We can take checks, you know, made out to Exodus 51, all that type of stuff. And so the other thing too is just pray. And my hope is when I go speak places and stuff again, I’m not. I wish everybody would like, hey, this is the best thing. I feel like it is. That’s. Cause I’m. It’s God’s calling me to it. Right. So I’m going to be of course biased towards that. But my hope is that they go, well, if that dummy can do that with God’s help, maybe what could I do? 

Brandon McNace:
Because my gut feeling would be there’s probably people listening to go, I really want to step out in faith and, you know, participate in this. And, you know, maybe at some point when we get our stuff for the land, we’re going to put out kind of a strategy in the campaign. Like, hey, this is what the campus is going to look like. Maybe that’s the thing, right? Or maybe the thing is going, man, this is just, like, lit something in my heart. And so maybe there’s a ministry at your church or maybe there’s a ministry or not even a ministry. Maybe there’s something where you can create impact that you wouldn’t normally have done. So my goal is that the Exodus story is not just to help everyone over there, but it’s to help us here. 

Brandon McNace:
Going, there are places that we can create impact. Maybe it’s when we’re talking about your kids and the stuff you’ve done, maybe somebody goes, man, I need to be a little bit more intentional with my kids. That’s the goal. And so be praying. I would ask just everybody, be praying for us. Be praying for this. This is like a crazy mission, but I don’t feel like it’s going to stop in Pakistan eventually. I feel like. I mean, there’s a lot of places around the world. And the one. Our one mission statement that God gave us is to be a conduit for his resources into the darkest places of the world. And so we want to challenge ourselves always to be looking for opportunities to go in and to help people. And so, yeah, follow God. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, listen to what he has to say. Brandon, you are a man of great courage, and I love you. You’re a wonderful friend and you’re doing amazing work. God bless you for doing that. Thanks for being on the show. 

Brandon McNace:
It’s a pleasure and a joy. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.