Golf, Gardening, and Grace: Bill Thrall’s Secrets to Trust-Building Leadership

Bill Thrall, co-founder of Trueface in 1995, is renowned for his contributions to
books like The Cure and The Ascent of a Leader. His expertise extends to helping
leaders build trust and create grace-based environments, benefitting CEOs and
heads of various organizations. Before Trueface, he led Open Door Fellowship for
over two decades, where he developed a character training program influencing
leaders like Kit Danley. In his leisure time, Bill enjoys fishing, golfing,
woodworking, and gardening. He and his wife, Grace, have three children and nine
grandchildren. You can contact Bill at lcibill@aol.com, and learn more about his
ministry at www.trueface.org.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Bill Thrall:
Jeff, good to be with you. I’m, I’m Bill Thrall. I’m living in Phoenix, Arizona. It’s going to be a bombing 75 here today. My wife and I have three children, nine grandchildren and four great grandchildren. And presently, because I just decided I wouldn’t retire, I’m still doing ministry with cohorts and coming alongside individuals. Appreciate being with you today. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’s wonderful to have you. And I had the unique opportunity to sit with you as a leader of a small group. And I’m telling you, Bill, it was just, it was absolutely fantastic and really enriching to me and to my wife. And I really appreciate your ministry. 

Bill Thrall:
Well, thank you. I enjoyed having you. There’s a lot of connection that you and I enjoy together. 

Jeff Johnson:
For sure. For sure. Well, our topic today is courage. And of course, before we get to the main question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? Maybe just to calibrate a little bit, Bill, what does courage mean to you? How would you define that? 

Bill Thrall:
Yeah. Thank you. I think courage is a choice that we make in circumstances that aren’t favorable. I, I think there’s a unique courage in the military that takes place that young men and women under normal circumstances would never make those choices. But the same is true of us. I, I think we are given opportunities in our circumstances to make hard choices. And, and that requires a lot of courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you, do you think courage is something that people are born with or is it something that they learn? 

Bill Thrall:
That’s a good question. What I would say about that is that we don’t know sometimes the essence of the significance of things we have. We just don’t know it until opportunity or circumstance puts us in a place to make a choice. And, and so I, I think it’s kind of like an innate thing in us as people. Some of us are timid, fear based, and making hard choices is not possible. Others tend to be overt, kind of challenged with life, kind of risk oriented. But, but I think sometimes even the most timid of people, when given the opportunity to do something courageous, will do it. Yeah. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Along those lines is interesting people that I talk to and I’m, well, how should I characterize this? People that just impress me in their day to day work. Either they’re business colleagues or they’re people that I know through church or through other fiefdoms, other little endeavors. They’re impressive to me. And then I’ll find out once I get to know them that they’ve got some miraculous, amazing, courageous endeavor that they’ve been a part of, but it’s not the main thing that they would leave with when they first talk to you. So what’s. How do you relate courage and humility? I don’t think I’m asking a very good question, but you know what I’m talking about. 

Bill Thrall:
No, I think you are. I think, Jeff, that, as you know, I see humility as a relationship word. Humility, in my opinion, has to do with trusting God and others with me. In fact, my story is about that. And I think that when we are able to trust God, then he’s able to put us into some unique places that are his purposes for us. I’m right now doing some writing on influence, and I just wrote yesterday about 10 pages on the. The man born blind and. And the. Just watching the process of his courage and. And his processing, then becomes a teacher of the Pharisees. It’s like this guy was a blind beggar, and now he’s face to face because of his trust in God, with confronting the Pharisees in their own blindness. It’s an amazing story. So. 

Bill Thrall:
So I do think there is a unique connection between trust and courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Okay. More just to kind of calibrate your. Your understanding of courage. How do you think courage differs from recklessness? 

Bill Thrall:
Well, I think that recklessness is making a decision without thinking about it. It’s just. Just doing something. And sometimes it, you know. You know, you and I probably shouldn’t be alive for some of the reckless choices we’ve made. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right? 

Bill Thrall:
But courage requires a choice. In the midst of life, you have to make a choice sometimes, and maybe more than once, of course. But. But in that choice, then. Then you’re deciding. I’m willing to take the risk that these circumstances require of me, and we do. And so I think that’s the difference. I grew up pretty reckless. A lot of high school choices I regret deeply, and yet I’m still alive. But there have been some choices that I and my wife together have made that were very calculated and the circumstances were very difficult, and the outcomes could have been horrible. That. That’s the difference between recklessness and courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you think we find courage in our everyday life? 

Bill Thrall:
I don’t. Well, yeah, in a minor sense, of course. But I think the big. I think the big life choices that have a lot of consequence to them don’t come every day. They’re. They’re unique and. And they. We address them when they occur. It’s not like we sit down every day Wondering what’s the most courageous thing I’m going to do today that robs us of courage? Courage is not something you premeditate. Courage is something you do when the circumstances require. I mean, just very obviously Jesus had the courage to go to Calvary. He did. He had the courage to go to Calvary. He made a choice. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Bill Thrall:
And. And in that choice, thank God, I’m redeemed. But it took a lot of courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. Well, I, yeah, I understand what you’re saying. And I, and I, as I look back on it, the times when I’ve felt like I’ve acted courageously, those are real demarcations. You know, I feel like I’ve had to jump up. I mean, something has changed in my life because of that event. 

Bill Thrall:
Absolutely. And I think that’s true. I would just add one more thing. I think courage helps us clarify our convictions. I really do. I think that sometimes we don’t know the depth of the choices we have to make. And once we make them, we learn a great deal about ourselves. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, that’s meaning that’s a character thing. That’s a character defining situation. Who am I really? 

Bill Thrall:
Who I really am? I didn’t think I would do that. What in the world? 

Jeff Johnson:
Right. 

Bill Thrall:
What does that say about me? Wow. I didn’t know I had it in me kind of thing. 

Jeff Johnson:
In my younger days, I trained to be a certified flight instructor, and I did that for just a small period of time. And then I got busy with other things. But I absolutely love flying. I loved everything to do with aviation. One of the things that I was taught as an instructor with new students is that when students get in a difficult scenario inside of an aircraft, you know, they’re in the middle of a stall or some kind of maneuver that they’re very uncomfortable with or bad weather, they react one of two different ways. 

Jeff Johnson:
Either they’re kind of out of body experience and they have denial about what’s going on, and they just kind of want to talk about something else even while they’re in the cockpit and the plane is doing some crazy things, or their skills become very sharp and their response times become heightened and they become hyper focused. And I feel like courage, based on what you just said, Bill, is a little bit like that. You know, it’s a telltale, you know, which way are you going to go and how are you going to hold it? 

Bill Thrall:
It is. And, and there’s just a zillion examples in history of individuals who took an unbelievable decision to be courageous Just into my mind right now, Pop, that young man who stood in front of a tank in China. Yeah. And he just said to the Chinese government, kill me. Yeah. And, and it went viral. And the whole world would have called that an incredible act of courage. Yeah. I don’t think it was premeditated. I, I think in the circumstances, he said, I think I have found something worth dying for. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Wow. Well put. Okay, Bill, well, our listeners want to hear from you then. What is the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Bill Thrall:
Well, what I would say is it began when I was 19 and the, the courageous act didn’t happen then, but the beginning did. When I was 19, I was a student in a Bible college and I had for me the first time I ever sensed the presence of God experience. And it just overwhelmed me and I left that experience with a profound sense of destiny. I just, I have no better way to say it. I just felt, oh my gosh, God wants to do something really significant in my life. And I thought it was going to happen next Tuesday. Here, here are, Here you are. And, and, and I didn’t know what to do with that. I didn’t tell anybody. Five days later, the principal, I mean, the president of the school, his. I got an appointment to meet with him. 

Bill Thrall:
And when I went to see him, his secretary said, no, you’re not going to see him. You’re. I’m, I’m here. I asked you to come and see me. I said, what? She said, I think God’s hands on your life. And she said, I’m. Bill, I’m going to pray for you every day the rest of my life. Jeff. She prayed for me for over 30 years. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. 

Bill Thrall:
I don’t pray for me every day. Well, fast forward now. I’m the ripe age of 31 and learned a lot of life lessons between 19 and 31. And Grace and I are working with high school and college kids. It’s the early 70s and our ministry is just exploding. I cannot tell you how incredible our experience was. And I worked at that time as the Deputy Auditor General for the state of Arizona. And another time when we get a chance to do this, I’ll tell you about one experience when I was the Deputy Auditor General. I had the courage to arrest the sheriff of the largest county in Arizona. And this little man’s face was in every newspaper paper in the state. But that’s not the story I want to talk about courage. I have a different. So I’m the Deputy Auditor General. 

Bill Thrall:
And I worked for a man named Ira Osman. He hired me out of college for my first CPA job. Offered me the deputy owner General’s job. And he was really old school. And so he called me in one Friday afternoon and he said, bill, we are so far behind in our audits, I need you to come in tomorrow and Sunday. And I said to him, ira, I can’t. I’ve got a youth retreat. He got so upset. And he said to me, bill, you have got to decide. You can’t have two careers. You’ve got to decide either work here or work with those kids. He always called them those kids. And he said, you just gotta decide. Went home. And now we get to the courage part. I went home. My wife must have seen the look on my face. 

Bill Thrall:
And she said, are you okay? And I said, no. I said, we have to make a decision if we’re going to go into the ministry or not, and we have to make it this weekend. And she, and she and I sat at our kitchen table and we cried. Because even though our hearts were full of a desire to be in the ministry with these young adults, our circumstances, we had no funding, we had no support team. We just had a lot of kids. I mean, every Friday night my dear wife would allow us to take all the furniture out of our living room and dining room and we would have wall to wall kids on Friday nights in our house, just as many high school and college kids could get in. 

Bill Thrall:
So we sat at the table and we agreed together that we would trust God to give us direction. Because my friend Ira was very old school. And I knew that if he knew my decision was to work with high school kids, Monday was my last day. If, if he knew somebody on his staff was looking for a job or in fact interviewed for a job, they were done, he’d go find him, they’re gone. So I knew that happened. So the courage is in a. In a different way. It was literally my wife and I trusting God and we had no next step planned at all. And so I went into work Monday morning and he saw me. He looked at me and he said, don’t tell me your choice. Don’t tell me your decision. And I said, what? Don’t tell me your decision. 

Bill Thrall:
Because he knew his own policy. And so he said, don’t tell me your decision because I don’t want you to leave. But he just said, don’t tell me. He said, bill, you’re very capable. He said, I’ve done some talks the last week or two with a couple of partners in these large CPA firms. I’ve set up an interview for you. I said what? He said, yeah, one of these national CPA firms. And I went downtown, and they offered me a job. But it wasn’t an unusual job. They let me set the parameters, and here’s. Here’s where the parameters that. That I set. I can’t work Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. I can’t work a day in June, July, or August. I need a week off at Easter and a week off at Christmas, because that’s when my ministry has its greatest expression. 

Bill Thrall:
And they said, okay, wow. I know. And I went to work for them for two years, and I never worked a day, a Thursday or Friday. I never worked a day in the summer. And I made almost as much money as I was making as a deputy auditor. Now, my. My story is amazing. Yeah. My story is not. Not to be the hero. I’m not. The story is. I just knew that this sense of destiny was a reality, but I didn’t know when I’d ever have a chance to express it. And the circumstances created an opportunity that I couldn’t any longer deny. And so my wife and I, crying together, had no idea that Ira had set up this process. And I went to work for this firm, and they were unbelievably generous. And. And the very. 

Bill Thrall:
The managing partner of the CPA firm came to me, and he said, bill, we don’t understand at all why you’re doing what you’re doing, why you’re going into ministry. But he said, if you would be willing to work full time the last month, which was May of 1973, he said, if you’d be willing to work full time, we will pay you full time plus a bonus. And they paid me enough money that month to give Grace and me enough cash to get going forward. Now, our ministry was right at the time that the hippie movement hit America. We were right in the middle of the Jesus revolution. Jeff, I want to tell you, I. I could talk for hours about what God did. I. 

Bill Thrall:
I remember eight years into our ministry, I had the audacity one day to say, oh, Lord, I can’t imagine what I’ve already experienced. What we’ve already experienced is more than I could have ever dreamed of. This must be as good as it’s going to get. Well, I was young and dumb, because now, 40 years later, we’re still doing it. And. And so I would just share with you that what does it take just me? But what does it take for a Bill Thrall or a Peter or a Gideon or a woman at the well to trust Jesus? And what is, what does he do when we do? I, I always say that my, the people I teach and work with God. God is looking for people he can trust with truth and purpose. 

Bill Thrall:
And the ones he can trust with truth and purpose are the ones that choose to trust Him. So, so that’s a, that’s a quick overview of a story that Grace and I have been living into now for over 50 years. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. Does God give that opportunity, Bill, that’s such an amazing story to put you and Grace right in the middle of the Jesus revolution, to call you out of the private sector and put you right smackdown in the middle of that and to provide you resources to do the same thing. So what’s my question? I’ve got a lot of questions about this. What does God do that for everybody? And how do you know that? You know that you know. 

Bill Thrall:
Yeah. Well, let’s do the second one first. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Bill Thrall:
You don’t know. You don’t know what you have is a sense that the God of the universe has chosen you for his purposes. What your chance is to believe that. Now I, I say to a lot of people, if you’re a believer, you are chosen by God. But just hear this principle. Every choice of God comes with purpose. And, and how do I learn to live into the purpose he has for me? There’s not going to be another. I shouldn’t say that we’re not going to experience a Jesus revolution like we did then. I had nothing to do with that. I was just part of the process. But, but so I say to a lot of people, it’s like I, I try to help people hear this. There’s a lot of confusion in the church about God’s callings and all of that. 

Bill Thrall:
I just say to get out of all of that, just know that as a believer you are designed of God for his purposes. And, and as a believer, always know this. God wants you to mature in his purposes to where your life is. Live for the benefit of others. That that’s a purpose. Now what will be the expression of that? I have no idea. It’s as varied as God is in the way he does things. You know, I, I teasingly say to people, you know, when David took that stone and put it in a sling and killed the giant, if that happened today, everybody would go out and buy a slingshot and look for rocks, because they would say, that’s the pattern, the way God works. No, he doesn’t. We, we have got all kinds of movements that people are trying to follow. 

Bill Thrall:
The pattern. No, no, the pattern is this. A young man named David knew he couldn’t die that day. He knew the giant could not beat him. He could have killed him with a peashooter. And the reason he knew that is because he didn’t appoint a king. And once he was anointed king, there’s no way this giant can mess with God’s choice. So, so those are the lessons we want to help people understand, is don’t look to mimic my story. Look to find your story by trusting God with you and the purpose he has for your life. Yeah. Does that make sense? 

Jeff Johnson:
It makes perfect sense, and it’s inspiring, too, Bill. And, but to get back to this little firecracker of courage, if I can put it that way, yes, that’s the. You have to say yes to that. God makes it. 

Bill Thrall:
Exactly. 

Jeff Johnson:
I’m going to say in my language, God makes it clear to you because he’s got the longings of your heart, and He’s. He’s arranged circumstances and whatever, but you still had to sit down with your wonderful wife and say, are we going to do this? 

Bill Thrall:
Exactly. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yes, we’re going to do this. So there’s the courage bit, right? 

Bill Thrall:
No, it’s. Jeff, that is the courage bit. I mean, it’s like my mind is right now full of just a whole bunch of Bible characters who were put into circumstances where God wanted to use them and they had to make a choice. And that’s the beauty of our relationship with the Lord. We’re not robots. Even as believers, we’re not robots. We get to participate with the Almighty God and his purposes for us, and it requires courage. It really does. I, I, Last year, I did some work on Zoom with leaders india, and several of them were under severe persecution. I mean, severe persecution. One of them, the day before in the Zoom gone, they burned his church down. And, and the people were being beaten in the streets. 

Bill Thrall:
And I’m thinking, okay, that’s not the purpose God had for my life, but that guy and his wife are choosing to live trusting God in their circumstances. They could run. He could have run. He could have. He, he said, like a whole bunch of people which took off. He didn’t run. He stayed. Well, that takes a lot of courage, Jeff. I was doing some training in Asia, and I said to the audience, I’d like you all to think about what you believe God’s dream is for your life. What. What do you think is God’s purpose for you? And I wish I hadn’t chosen the first guy because nobody could. Nobody could top whatever he said. I looked at him and I pointed this guy and he said, my name, he’s from Vietnam. My name is whatever. 

Bill Thrall:
And he said, I’m 27 and I know that I will be martyred for the gospel before I’m 35. Okay, anybody else want to talk about. So, so it’s like the courage is a choice. We talked about that earlier. And, and do I have the courage to trust God with me? Because you’ve heard me teach, you know, that I say, you know, I’ve discovered, Jeff, that there are lots and lots of Christians who have trusted Jesus with their sin, but they’ve never trusted Jesus with their life. And, and that takes, that takes courage. You know, he said, follow me. Okay. Not everybody followed him. John tells us that a lot of people left him. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yes. 

Bill Thrall:
So, so were they followers for a season? Are they Christians? Probably they go to heaven. Yeah, but are they trusting God with their person? That takes some courage. 

Jeff Johnson:
So when you talk about it this way, Bill, it’s reminding me of without faith, it’s impossible to please God. And John Lennox said that faith is not a. I’m not going to quote him, so I’m not even going to try to paraphrase it. He said, faith is not jumping into the abyss. It’s a rational response to the person of God, to who he is. So you move forward because you’ve got somebody who you can absolutely trust in, but you still don’t know how it’s going to turn out in the beginning. So you’ve got to take that leap. How about this question, Bill? Is that leap only made possible in the heart of a mature Christian, or can somebody who’s just brand spanking new in their faith find that sort of thing too? 

Bill Thrall:
That’s a good question. I’m going to pick on something you said as part of your question. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Bill Thrall:
Okay, Jeff, There. There needs to be enough awareness of who I am before God and who he is for me to make this choice. And let me give you an example out of something you said. If. If I see myself as a Christian with the heart of Jeremiah, just that miserable, deceitful heart, I. I’m. I’m not able to trust God or anybody. But if I understand that I have been made new, I can be two weeks old and know that or discovered it 30 years as a Christian. But if I discover that I have a heart that is new, from which I have learned to trust, it changes everything, because I now am a person that can. From a heart that wants to trust the God that has chosen me. That’s a good way to say that. Trust the God that has chosen me. 

Bill Thrall:
Yeah. And. And so that when I answer that, I say, how long we been a Christian? Some. Some Christians. Because you. You’ve heard me teach. Lots and lots of Christians are under a theology that they’re still sinners, and therefore their heart is still deceitful. They’re living out of their shame, not their hope. And. And there’s no way they can hear the heart of God. But if. If by the miracle of his grace, I actually realize I’m actually a new being with a new heart. Okay, Now. Now I could be six weeks old in the Lord and learn that. And. Or maybe I’m just discovering it. And I’m. I come alongside Jeff. A lot of people who have been Christians for a long time who are just discovering it. Mm. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. Somebody’s out there listening to us, Bill. Somebody’s listening to us. And their boss just walked into their office and said, look, you can’t do toothy. You’re gonna have to decide this thing or that thing. What are the practical steps that you would give people who feel like they’re at the precipice of a courageous step right now on how to know whether that’s God’s will for them or not? 

Bill Thrall:
Now, those are hard questions, but good questions. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Bill Thrall:
Well, if they’re married, the first choice is they’ve got to. They and their mate have got to agree because you can’t make a choice like that independent of your family. You can’t do it, shouldn’t do it, stop it. But if. If their mate agrees with them, then they do need to do a quick check. Just a real quick check. Is this God? Believe it is. Yeah. Grace and I sat there going, I think. I think this is really God. And he’s. 

Jeff Johnson:
She felt that too. 

Bill Thrall:
Oh, very strongly. Very strongly. And then if it is God, what’s this gonna. In being honest? What’s this gonna cost us? And I learned something by the time I was 31. Never measure your choice in the things of God by what you’re going to lose. Measure your choice by what you’re going to gain. Giving things up for God is not the same as receiving what he has for you. That’s. That’s from the message. Galatians, chapter two. And. And so that to me, it’s like, am I willing to fail? Like, that’s a very important part of courage. Am I willing to fail? Am I willing to lose my life? Am I willing to fail? What if that choice that Grace and I had made wouldn’t have worked? What if this CPA firm that Ira set up for me wouldn’t have been there? 

Bill Thrall:
Our circumstances would have been pretty dire. But. But I can’t worry about what’s going to happen. If I trust, I’ve got to be prepared to live into what happens because I trust. It’s. It’s all the difference in the world. Jeff, those words I just said are all the difference in the world. Yeah. There was a man in my life, early in my life, when I was in my early 20s, and he desperately wanted to be a mentor in my life. And he kept telling us of all these things of God, but I didn’t. Didn’t quite get him. And. And so he was over their house for lunch one day, and in front of his wife, he said, you know, we. We would have been missionaries and let’s just say Columbia. 

Bill Thrall:
I forget what he said, but we would have been missionaries, except my wife just wasn’t ready. And she immediately said to him, let’s say his name was Tom. She said, well, Tom, you never asked me. Yeah. And he ceased being my mentor that moment. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, I understand. 

Bill Thrall:
Yeah, yeah. So. So I would. I would say this. It’s like, what. What if we learned together and with any audience we’re a part of. What if we learned to encourage people to pursue God’s dream for their lives? And in our country, we have spiritualized America. And. And we have determined that living well with a big house and a lot of money is being blessed of God. No, it’s not right. No, it’s not. It’s. It’s the fruits of a democracy. It’s the fruits of capitalism. And I. I say to a lot of young audiences, be very careful. God does not want us to pursue things and give him the benefit when we get them. God wants us to pursue him. And. And so I. I say to. 

Bill Thrall:
To a lot of people, you see, don’t consider things you have gained as a significant blessing from God. Remember this. When Jesus was tempted, Satan offered him the kingdoms of the world. And all Jesus has to do to keep you from the purposes of God is to give you. Excuse me. If all Satan has to do to keep you from the purposes that God is To give you wealth. You bought cheaply. You just bought cheaply. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s well put, Bill. You’re a wonderful teacher and I’m grateful to have you as my teacher. I’ve learned so much from you over this past year, and God willing, I’ll learn a lot more going forward. If people wanted to find out more about you and about your ministry and you’re an author, you’ve. You’ve authored quite a few books, how would they contact you? 

Bill Thrall:
Well, today, because I’m, I’m refusing to retire. I’m, I’m unassociated except for myself. The best way to contact me is just with my email. LCI bill.com. And next year it may be different. Even at my age, I’m thinking very strongly starting to do some podcast work like you. Okay, so that may change next year, but right now that’s the best way for people to contact me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. And I’ll put that in the show notes so if people are so inclined and they get that nudge from God, they can reach out to you. Bill, but again, you’ve been such a blessing to me. Could I ask you for one last favor before we close here? Maybe offer a prayer for some folks out there that are again on the precipice of courage and really wanting to press into the things of God. Would you pray for the folks out there that are needing it? 

Bill Thrall:
Thank you, I’d like that. Father, there are lots of people like Jeff and Bill in this world that are searching to know and understand and literally delight in the purposes of God. Father, I pray for those individuals that today, even this moment, are on the edge of a hard life choice. Father, could they make it believing it is your purpose for them and then trust you, God, with the consequences? Lord, I often teach that my job is to be obedient. My father’s job is to be responsible for the consequence of my obedience. May they know that. May they hear that. May they trust that I lift them to you in Jesus name. Amen. 

Jeff Johnson:
Amen. Amen. Bill Thrall, dear friend and a courageous man, thank you so much for being with us. 

Bill Thrall:
Thank you, Jeff. What a privilege. We’ll do it again. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yes, I have to. 

Bill Thrall:
All right.