Breaking Barriers and Building Bridges: Katie O’Hara’s Courageous Journey of Self-Discovery

In the latest episode of the “Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics” podcast, host Jeff Johnson engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Katie O’Hara, a senior leader in a FTSE 100 company specializing in infrastructure transformation. Katie shares her inspiring journey from leaving school at 19 to pursue an apprenticeship, her work connecting offshore renewable wind energy to the UK grid, and her experiences as a woman in a male-dominated industry. She opens up about her profound mental health struggles during the COVID pandemic, detailing her courageous decision to leave her marriage and seek true happiness, aided by therapy and self-discovery. Through her narrative, Katie redefines courage and emphasizes the importance of finding individual paths to recovery, offering heartfelt advice to those grappling with similar challenges. The episode concludes with reflections on personal growth and connections forged through vulnerability, setting the stage for Katie’s upcoming adventures, including a milestone trip to Peru to celebrate her 40th birthday with her stepdaughter.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Full Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson. 

Jeff Johnson:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Courageous Crossroads podcast. Our Next guest, Katie O’Hara, has got a wonderful story of courage. Actually, it’s more of a real time demonstration of courage. Katie is brave even sitting down to the interview because she is going through her courageous endeavor as we speak. And what a treat it was to be able to sit down and visit with Katie, another good friend of mine. You’re going to hear about it in the podcast, but she and I were also classmates in this course that I took over in Oxford. And what an amazing woman. And I was encouraged to be able to meet her. And I think you’re all going to be encouraged by what she has to say about what she’s gone through and what she’s going through right now. 

Jeff Johnson:
So I can’t wait for you to hear her. And here’s Katie. Katie, thank you so much for joining us today on the Courageous Crossroads podcast. It’s wonderful to have you with us. And I got to tell everybody that’s listening, tell a little behind the scenes truth about me. I have a. I have a sense that everybody that has a British accent is smarter than me. Like a lot smarter than me. So welcome. Katie. Thank you for doing this. 

Katie O’Hara:
I wouldn’t assume that. 

Jeff Johnson:
Do you know, in our airport, I. 

Katie O’Hara:
Was just gonna say, I just think it’s the accent. Surely. 

Jeff Johnson:
It’S you and the accent. Do you know, in our local airport here, the. The announcement overdub. The voice is a British accent. It doesn’t belong anywhere in the middle of central Iowa. We don’t, you know, this isn’t Great Britain, but the accent is British to calm everybody down and give everybod stuff like that. So, anyway, so grateful to have you joining us, Katie. Thanks for being on the program. 

Katie O’Hara:
Thanks for having me, Jeff. 

Jeff Johnson:
You and I have the benefit of going through this Oxford class together in 2023. And I’ve had a handful of people on from that program that have been through that course with me as well. But it was so wonderful to get to meet you. And were over there in the UK going through that, and we’ve just both recently found out that we graduated the program. So congratulations. 

Katie O’Hara:
Congratulations to you, too. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Katie O’Hara:
As I said a moment ago, I did have that blind bit of panic when it went from everybody 100 passed to, oh, my God, there is somebody there that. That unfortunately hasn’t. So, yeah, my thoughts are with that. That individual as well. But, yeah, it’s been an incredible experience that, yeah, you just can’t. You can’t summarize it into a sentence about what it is and what it means. 

Jeff Johnson:
You can’t. It was amazing going through that class with you. So to put you in context, you know, we talk about courage here on the program and we’ll get down to the question, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? But before we get into that, let our audience learn a little bit more about you. So could we find out where you’re from, a little bit about your history, your work, that sort of thing? Whatever you want to share. 

Katie O’Hara:
Yeah. So I was actually thinking about this yesterday. Jeff sat in the garden in Warwick. So, yeah, I’ve got a house based in Warwick and, you know, it’s a beautiful location to live. So I was having a coffee and I was just thinking, how would I introduce myself? So I sort of summarised it into two elements. One, you know, work context and then secondly, you know, from a outside of work and a home perspective. So at work, I’m a senior leader in a FTSE 100 company and my role really focuses on strategy transformation and change in major infrastructure. So getting to that place, you know, today is quite monumental in terms of. I’ve just turned 40 last week, so I feel like I’ve covered a lot of ground in a relatively short period of time. 

Katie O’Hara:
But essentially I left school at 19, so quite early I left school, I didn’t go to uni, I chose to go and get an apprenticeship, which, you know, was not a standard route post school. So I had to graft really hard. I work full time, I studied alongside that and, you know, ultimately I got to the point where very early on I met my. My ex husband. He was. He’s 18 years older than I was. So I got into life very quickly at a very early age. So from there I’ve sort of built businesses. So I digressed into child care at some point and sold that business. Just before COVID I also had a baby. I’ve renovated properties, so, yeah, long and short of it, I’ve tried to put my toe into a lot of. 

Katie O’Hara:
A lot of different places and then roll forwards to where I am now. So, like, I touched on, I’m in major construction. So I had a career change out of accountancy which had been my, you know, technical skill set for a very long time and as we’ve touched on, completed the degree at Oxford, so covered a lot of ground from a work perspective in my career. But then, you know, moving to my next job, full time job is I have two beautiful young ladies that I’m immensely proud of. So I’ve got a stepdaughter called Lucy. She’s 24 and an incredible young lady, you know, very successful, very focused, very driven and has got a really interesting outlook in life. So she’s traveling at the moment, she’s left her accountancy career because, you know, that is the way forwards in life clearly. 

Katie O’Hara:
And, and I met her when she was 5. So I was 19, 20 at the time. She was 5. She got the most gorgeous blonde hair in pigtails. She had this baby blue padded coat on. I just remember, I can still visualize it today, this very young, innocent young girl. And you know, and now she’s, you know, traveling around South America on her own. She’s left her accountancy job, she’s got an 18 month sabbatical and I just think she’s phenomenal. And actually to celebrate my birthday, we’re linking up in Peru to do Machu Picchu together and also we’re going to be camping in the Amazon. So that’s huge thing that we’re working up to at the moment. And then I’ve also got a little girl called Lily Mae who’s 13 in a few days. She is a mini me. 

Katie O’Hara:
You know, she is essentially looks like me but she is the polar opposite in terms of personality. So she’s, you know, she doesn’t blend in. She’s happy to be different, she’s academic, she plays rugby and she dances and I did none of those things when I was her age. So massively proud of her as well. 

Jeff Johnson:
She’s a rugby player. 

Katie O’Hara:
She is, yeah. Full contact rugby for a girls team in Coventry. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay, well, I’m out. I’m going to end this interview right now because British people seem like they’re much smarter than me. So that already. And then the rugby people are so much tougher than I am. Katie, I got no business talking to you. Oh my goodness. 

Katie O’Hara:
Slam dung, you’re off. 

Jeff Johnson:
Are you a rugby player? 

Katie O’Hara:
I’m not, no, I did, I was a swimmer and for some bizarre reason, love cross country as well. So running for miles in open fields was, you Know my thing. But no, she’s a rugby and she’s into ballet, tap and. And disco. So polar opposite to me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Wow. See, this is what’s so fantastic about getting to know people. It’s just there’s so much, so many layers to you already, Katie, that we could just go on with this podcast for hours. That rugby thing is fascinating, though. I’ve just recently clicked on my little YouTube TV, the Six nations, so I can follow all of that business because. Wow. How exciting is that? 

Katie O’Hara:
So, yeah, and went to the. The World cup in Japan in 2019, and I think so. So her dad’s a big rugby player. So I think with that and then going out to Japan and seeing, you know, England play through to the final, I think that’s where she started to get a bit of a. I could do this. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, that’s brilliant. Well, I love that. So you. You talked about being in construction, and I knew that about you from our time together in Oxford and doing the infrastructure work. You know, my business is steel construction, and so we do large lock and dam sorts of projects for the Army Corps of Engineers and the government in general. So what kind of infrastructure are you talking about? Is it. Is it roads and bridges and that sort of thing? 

Katie O’Hara:
No, so it’s long linear electricity transmission. So you’re still, you know, looking at overhead line cables, towers, so lattice towers that we build across the countryside. We have got, you know, a huge amount of substations to build as well. Ultimately, what we’re focused on is connecting the offshore renewable wind. That is a huge drive at the moment to get onto our networks. We’re looking at how we rewire the UK to accommodate all of that new generation, which is incredible. It’s like a revolutionary activity that we’ve got to do over the next 10. 

Jeff Johnson:
10, 20 years, rehabilitate and refurbish and do all that sort of thing. Interface with all the other countries that you’re buttressed up against over there in the uk. 

Katie O’Hara:
Yeah, and. And interface with, you know, a network that was built back in the 50s. You know, it’s. It’s a real challenging, complex program. And then, you know, as you’ve touched on steel manufacturing, raw materials, you know, they’re. They’re not in abundance, and there’s a massive fight, you know, in terms of. Or dash as such, to get to net zero across the globe. So, yeah, it’s. It’s a wicked problem, Jeff, as we. We learn a lot about. 

Jeff Johnson:
Well, now, I’m not. I don’t want it this is probably a sensitive subject, but, you know, your underground stops running whenever it rains. So is that part of you, part of your purview, Katie? 

Katie O’Hara:
No, that’s not part of me. 

Jeff Johnson:
Okay. 

Katie O’Hara:
Thankfully, yeah. If we. We have challenges like that, we will, you know. Unfortunately, it’s not. It’s not good reputation, but no, that’s definitely not us. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. When you were a little girl growing up, did you foresee this kind of thing? Was this what you were aiming at or different? 

Katie O’Hara:
No, no, I couldn’t. So my. My. The last sort of career choice I really remember was probably when I finished my school at 16 and I had to pick RA levels and I focused on the likes of, like, chemistry, maths, biology. And my dream job at the time, which I don’t know how I got there, was to be an environmental sort of consultant. So going into restaurants and doing inspections and things like that, until I realized the. The reality of that job in terms of sewage works and rats. So, you know, and probably never wanting to eat in a restaurant again if I saw what was going on behind the scenes. So I changed then and I sort of fell into accountancy. 

Katie O’Hara:
And I suppose it’s probably, you know, a turning point in life is my dad got made redundant and he’d funded my brother to go to university and he wasn’t in that position to do so with myself. So I decided to take the burden off my dad and I applied for an apprenticeship. So at the time I had to make the decision, I had two university places, at Birmingham University and Aston University. So still local to where I grew up. But I got offered this job that I could go straight into work, I could study alongside, you know, on the job experience. So I went down that route and that. That was really why I started accountancy. So it wasn’t a passion or this long life dream of being an accountant, that’s for sure. 

Jeff Johnson:
But, yeah, a very responsible act, a very courageous act in and of itself. So, okay, well, let’s use. Let’s use that as a catalyst then, to eas. Ease into this conversation of courage. So, Katie, tell me again, before we ask the big question, tell me, how do you define courage? What do you perceive courage as when you think about courage? What do you think about? 

Katie O’Hara:
So to me, it could be a small or as big. You know, it could be a big thing, it could be something really quite small. I think for me, it’s that activity thought, you know, catalyst maybe that makes you do something different, whether that’s not accepting the way things have been or you’ve decided actually something’s not serving you anymore, so you look to take a different path. So I think you can summarize it. You know, people are courageous in everything they do every day. And it doesn’t have to be this sort of monumental experience. It can just be that. So a little seed of I need to make a change and it becomes that catalyst, you know, for, you know, days, weeks, months ahead, whatever it takes. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s beautiful. I love the way that you put that. It can be a tiny little thing, just the ability to change, the ability to look at something a little bit different just even in a moment, to just do that. Yeah, that’s very well put. When you, when you think about courage, then as a ethos, as an idea, is there somebody that inspires you with a lot of courage? Is there somebody in your life or somebody even could be a historical figure or somebody that represents courage to you? 

Katie O’Hara:
Yeah. Do you know what? So I was talking to an executive coach at work. And so in my line of work, you know, diversity, that’s not just females, you know, it’s across many different demographics. The construction industry is very male dominated and it’s an aging workforce and there is, you know, growing numbers in terms of diversity, which is great to see. But when I was talking to her and I had my career change probably about four years ago, she was like, what do you struggle with? So I really struggle with going into meetings and, you know, people introduce themselves. So it starts off with, hi, I’m such and such. And they seem to verbatim repeat their CV as if it’s like, I’ve earned my strides. So I’ve been in Construction for 40 years and I’ve done X, Y and Z. 

Katie O’Hara:
And in those first, I’d say 12, 18 months, I felt lost. I was thinking, I can’t compare to these people. You know, I’m. My background is finance. I don’t have at the time a degree, you know, and. And I’ve made this career change because I wanted to do something different. So I had to find. And really, I’d say really hunker down and say, right, okay, what is my unique selling point? So when I create my narrative, it’s not what’s on my cv, but it’s creating something credible. So, you know, I’m a senior leader. I can, you know, identify huge opportunities in businesses, I can create a strategy, I can drive that transformation. And yeah, it’s very different, but actually it’s complementary then. 

Katie O’Hara:
So when you’re driving Big programs of work and you need to not, you know, you can’t necessarily repeat yesterday’s activities and be fit for the future. So yeah, I’d say that’s probably a defining moment that then links to your question, which is she’s like, you’re a bit like the Rosa Parks then in construction, aren’t you? And I was like, really, you know, not me. But then you sort of take that back a little bit and you think actually there are a handful of individuals in their fields or at home or whatever that just again, they’ve got a real passion for something and a real belief and you know, that can be hugely empowering for people around you. So yeah, that’s. 

Katie O’Hara:
So I wouldn’t say, you know, like I’m a trailblazer, but when you talk to people, I’d say individuals that you see have made such a difference in life and Rosa park was one of the, and I think interesting to see my daughter goes to an all girls school which I really challenged myself on is that right thing to do, etc. But they’ve got a change Maker gallery and it is all females that in their field have done something phenomenal. And you know, there’s the likes of like Marie Curie up there, Rose Parks up there for example, and then they create their own change makers of people in the year and Lily’s just been sort of nominated as one. So I think I’d say there’s some sort of links there in terms of. 

Katie O’Hara:
There’s no one specific that I’d say I absolutely aspire to be that person. But you look around, you know, the industry, even in my line of work, there are some really key, you know, driven individuals that are so passionate about what they do. And I think that’s, I take a lot of energy from that. 

Jeff Johnson:
I think that’s wonderful. That’s a great answer. You know, I, I don’t want to brag on myself. So this is, please, this is not a bragging thing. I feel like one of the, I feel like one of the gifts that God’s given me is discernment. So I can walk into a room and I can kind of get the feel for people and that sort of thing in the room. And Katie, my first impression of you without a doubt was strength. You, you presented yourself as somebody who was very strong and very confident and not in an arrogant or, you know, overboard, overbearing sort of a way, but just somebody that was certain of themselves and Somebody that was strong and it’s a very. So you’ve definitely got that about you. So when you answer it that way. 

Jeff Johnson:
And now you talk about your sweet little daughter having the same kind of thing. Doesn’t surprise me one little bit. And it fits. That’s what I know. So, yeah. 

Katie O’Hara:
And do you remember one of our first interactions other than the hello, I’m such and such. Okay, tell me what you left on my desk in the first module. 

Jeff Johnson:
Was it a little card? 

Katie O’Hara:
It was, yeah. Yeah. I was so touched by that. 

Jeff Johnson:
It said, it said, hi, this is God. I’ll be in charge of your day today. I don’t need any help from you. Have a great day. Yeah. 

Katie O’Hara:
Simple but effective. I’ve, I’ve kept that. I remember that so clearly as one of my first sort of moments with yourself. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yay. Yay. Well, okay, the table set. So. And I want to find out. And the audience wants to find out too, so let’s dive in. Katie, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? 

Katie O’Hara:
So I would say that, yeah, there’s loads of things that I thought of over time and some are real positives, et cetera, which I touched on that, you know, I’ve been a very driven individual to always do better. But what I would say was one of the courageous moments in my mind is accepting that buried deep inside this mask veneer was a very challenging mindset. And mental health issues. I was struggling with mental health issues. So about three years ago, when the world halted for that thing called Covid, it actually threw me a lifeline, which I didn’t realize until about six months in. So very fast paced job. I was trying to balance my daughter. I just literally sold my childcare business two weeks before lockdown happened. And if I’d still got that business today, I don’t think it would have existed. 

Katie O’Hara:
I think it would have failed because of the pressure that Covid put on it. So I’d got into Covid and you know, being able to stay at home, work from home, not have to do school run and everything that life throws into the mix of just trying to have an active family, you know, and drive yourself into a better position. I’d realized how much of a stress and strain that had taken on me. I’d realized I was living a lie. I wasn’t being authentic to myself. I wasn’t happy. I basically just started existing. And I, I think at the time, looking back, you know, I must have been Existing off two to three hours sleep a night. You know, it was. It was. It was bare minimum. 

Katie O’Hara:
And I remember that I was sat in what I define as for me was the most beautiful family home I ever had. So we renovated it. It was. It was ours. And it was a childhood house that, you know, in the village that I grew up in, one of my good friends lived in this house, and I’d set my heart one day that would be my house. And it was. But I just sat there and I realized that I. I didn’t want to be there. And it was really bizarre feeling that for something that you’ve been so passionate about getting. I live there for probably six years, so it wasn’t like I just moved into it. And it was on a particular day that would have always been a get up and go for me. So it was snowing. 

Katie O’Hara:
Lilia was outside playing with her dad in the. Making a snowman. They were going sledging. And it was in that moment I realized that I was empty, that there was nothing in me, and that was just existing in life and that. And that was it. I was in the middle of a quite a significant mental health breakdown, and I hadn’t recognized it, and I hadn’t accepted those around me who were telling me that I needed to take a step back and slow down. And I was burning out. And I hadn’t listened. I wasn’t in a position to listen. I was just in that hamster wheel of life. So I’d say that was probably the hardest moment. But on a flip side, recognizing it was the biggest amount of courage that I had to, you know, I had to find, to. 

Katie O’Hara:
To, you know, try and come out of my bunker, essentially. So what I did then was I decided, probably unconventionally, I. I literally pulled a grenade on my life and I. I blew up every single element. So six months, roll forward six months, I came to the conclusion I failed in my life, got nothing left. I walked out my marriage, I walked out my family home. And I spent probably, and still am, trying to find myself. Who am I? What really makes me happy? You know, lots of comments about, why would you do that? Why would you leave your family home? Lots of bias and persistent perception of how life should be. And I just put two fingers up at it and. And gone, right, I’m going this way now, which people couldn’t accept, they couldn’t understand. 

Katie O’Hara:
So it was quite a fraught time for me when I needed people to just listen and not cast their views and judgment. And that’s where I met my therapist who. Who has been a phenomenal part of my journey and still is today, even three years on. 

Jeff Johnson:
That’s a huge amount of courage, Katie. I mean, wow. To. And especially to be able to do what’s. What’s best and healthiest and necessary for you in the face of all these people that are going, what in the world is going on? So. So you said you found yourself in the middle of that, even right now, finding yourself. Is that true, or are you through it or what? How do you characterize? 

Katie O’Hara:
I’d say I’m. You know, you say some things. You think, well, it sounds a little bit cheesy, but it really is. Is a journey. So I move from one chapter into another, and my story’s not finished. And that’s why, you know, as a touchdown, I sort of reached out to. To start this. This, for me is. Is a. Is part of the acceptance that I made a bold decision. I had a lot of challenge. You know, I broke up a family home with my daughter, who was. What would she have been at the time? She would have been 9, 10 when I did it. And people couldn’t understand it. You know, it was selfish. But what I got back to was you could have all the materialistic things in your. 

Katie O’Hara:
In, you know, that you can go for, the money can buy, but if you don’t have true happiness, you’ve got nothing. And that’s. That was the value that I latched onto. I needed to find a path to being happy. And I know I’m happier, but I’m not quite there yet. And I’m still sort of working my way through that and going to Peru and, you know, meeting up with Lucy after not seeing her for six months, traveling as part of my healing and sort of ongoing discovery, really, of instead of saying, no, I can’t do it, and putting the blocker up, I. I quite often focus on. And tell Lily one of the famous quotes from Top Gun Maverick, don’t think, just do. So when I’m like, no, I’m not gonna do it, I put that in my head and I’m like, right. 

Katie O’Hara:
You know, don’t think of all the reasons why you can’t do something. Think of the reasons you can. And Oxford was part of that. I’d convinced myself I wasn’t worthy. I couldn’t do it. I wasn’t clever. But now, you know, a week later, I’ve passed, and in July, I’m going to be graduating. You know, who would have thought it, right? So, yeah, I just. I’VE still got a long way to go. I don’t know where that is. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Katie O’Hara:
But I’m really open to it. I’m in a much better place than I was. 

Jeff Johnson:
The woman that I see sitting in front of me right now is amazingly joyful and put together and happy and content and that sort of thing. That’s very different than what I would have seen a couple years ago. 

Katie O’Hara:
You’re saying it’s very different to what you’d see half an hour ago. So, yeah, I’ve. I’ve got, you know, in anything. People love a label, don’t they? You can connect with a label. So, yeah, September, I, you know, again, part of my journey, I finally accepted. I needed some, you know, medication. So I essentially went to the doctor and I got antidepressants. And it was summarized there that I got catastrophic thinking, anxiety and depression. So that was like, whoa, you know, what are all these things? And actually what it does is while she can sit there and go, well, I’ve got depression. It’s defining me. It enabled me to get into that next layer of trying to understand what does it actually mean? Why confront it? What do I do differently? 

Katie O’Hara:
And then more recently, my therapist is moving into, like, attachment theories and styles, which is the next layer of, like, blows my mind of. So, you know, she. She’s described it as, I’ve got a preoccupied, anxious attachment style, which means I overanalyze, I question and challenge everybody. What’s their intent? I don’t trust anybody. And I’ve really pushed people away and hurt people. I know I have to the extent, you know, bizarrely. I always believe that people cross your path for a reason. And you might not know what that reason is at that point in time. It might be for a, you know, a tiny, infinite moment. It could be, you know, so much longer. But essentially, I. I did meet somebody through, you know, just by chance, basically. 

Katie O’Hara:
And that individual has truly been extraordinary in terms of trying to help me and my mental health. It didn’t start off in that way. Started off with a very transactional, you know, hi, how are you? And it sort of went from there. So he. He calls me Tubs because when I’m struggling, I comfort. So, you know, very partial to a Percy Pig, which is an MNS Marks and Spencer’s trademark sweep, or Harry Bows is the other one. He. Excuse my friend, she calls me a dick pretty much daily. But it’s fine because what he’s giving, what he’s given me is a different perspective and A huge amount of strength that I don’t see. And I’d say in the first time in my life I’ve trusted somebody that they haven’t got an ulterior motive. There’s nothing in it. 

Katie O’Hara:
It’s just, you know, pure friendship and this unique gift that he’s given me that is stop challenging yourself, stop putting yourself down. And I probably unleashed 30 odd years of pent upset and stress and all my mental health issues and some days I think God is gonna give up and walk away. He hasn’t to this day comes back fighting. So I’ve affectionately known, called him Iron Man. He seems to have this shield that he just deploys. It’s like, here we go. But again, I’ve, you know, I’ve faced some, you know, real challenges over recent months and we’ve laughed, we’ve cried. Well, I’ve laughed and cried, probably within, you know, like the British weather that goes here. So your point of what you see is not the reality. So I do mask a hell of a lot. I’m a huge introvert. 

Katie O’Hara:
I get hugely exhausted from being a senior leader and trying to, you know, demonstrate I, I’m somebody that can empower people and drive things forwards. When I get home, I’m exhausted and you know, I have to find a way of sort of resetting. So yeah, it’s, it’s a, I’d say I’m like Walter Mitty some, most days actually that outside, you know, the outside perspective is what you’ve described. The inside is a, is turmoil. And as Iron Man’s discovered, you don’t know what you’re going to get and within 20 minutes it can flip massively just because, you know, something’s triggered me. It can be the smallest thing, but if I’m having a bad day, it’s like pulling a thread and before you know it’s exploded. 

Jeff Johnson:
But the ability to self reflect and to be as transparent as you’re being with me right now, Katie, I mean, I don’t presume to speak for our audience here, but this is a blessing to me and this is encouraging me greatly because I can’t imagine what a difficult thing it would be to look at yourself, where you’re at and go, something’s not right, and then go seek some remedy for that, you know, and try to fix that. That takes a tremendous amount of courage that you characterize so beautifully. So wow, that’s wonderful. And you said you’ve had A group of people around you that have had a hard time with it. How do you reconcile that? 

Katie O’Hara:
There’s, there’s some bridges I’d say I’ve burnt to the ground and I know that. And you know that’s hard to accept as well. I think I’ve come, you know, I, I’ve come a long way but like I said, I’m still not there yet. So, you know, part of my success will be not to keep repeating that history. Interestingly though, yeah, I can look at what I’ve destroyed, but I’ve actually created some real strong bonds. So me and my brother, I’ve been brought up in the same, you know, family home, but four years apart. We were born four years apart and we had very different upbringing. So John was privately educated from the age of eight. He’s very intelligent. So, you know, those sort of analogies of, oh, there’s the clever one and this is, you know, the sporty one that I was named at. 

Katie O’Hara:
John has, you know, has gone through a period where he sort of moved away. He went, he went to uni, he never came back. And so, you know, that four years then became quite a big void and actually through me sharing my challenges, he shared his own. And where I’ve been that in my mind, the victim and not, you know, not had the same experiences and opportunities that he’d had. He was the opposite. He felt was on the pedestal and if he fell off, he’d. He’d be then perceived to be the failure. Etc. So it’s really interesting how, you know, two individuals built, brought up in the same environment actually have very common themes but for different reasons. It’s really interesting. I think the human brain is just phenomenal. You know, it’s just a minefield in terms of how complex it is. 

Katie O’Hara:
But yeah, it’s. Yeah, while I look back and I can say, right, but I’m really burnt bridges and really hurt people on the opposite, I’ve given a lot to people as well and, you know, I’ve still got more to give. I’m just trying to figure out how to do it in the right way. 

Jeff Johnson:
Oh, for sure. No, it’s fantastic, Katie. And what it. What a powerful story. So I gave you the little card and I always tell people, the only people that I invite on this program are people that are really smart. So I give myself license to ask the really hard questions, Katie. But I gave you the little card. Hi, this is. God, I’ll be In charge of your day to day. I don’t need any help from you. Have a great day. I’m curious, does faith play a part in your recovery at all? Where are you with that or are you with that anywhere? 

Katie O’Hara:
No, it doesn’t so. No it doesn’t. And interestingly so I. Small story. I’ll keep it, keep this bit short but I went to, so like I said, I went to a different career path. I went to, you know, your standard sort of comprehensive school that was, you know, you sort of fought for your day basically. And you know, I got hugely bullied when I was at school to the extent I refused to go back to that school, school because it got so bad and I think elements like this really then start defining how you respond to situations. I actually moved schools and I went to a, a Catholic school that was very, you know, focused on everything, you know, that’s traditionally Catholic. So we had a chapel and priests came in daily to run, you know, lunchtime masses. 

Katie O’Hara:
It was just woven into everything we did. It was an ex convent. So that was a, for me as a sort of non practicing, you know, person was really interesting to see and stay very good friends with a few individuals that still, you know, go to church on a Sunday. It’s, it’s a huge part of their lives and I respect it. I think what I take away from it, which is so no, I don’t, you know, I don’t have a belief necessarily, but what I do see is that community, that bond that people have by being and believing in something is hugely powerful. So whether you believe or don’t believe, there is a unique experience by, you know, really focusing on something that you do connect with in some way. 

Katie O’Hara:
So yeah, it’s not, it’s not helped me in the sense that you’ve sort of put it on the table. But I think communities and growing bonds with people and sharing stories, which is what I’ve started doing, helps me with my, you know, my journey. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, well, see, there’s another demonstration of your strength right there, Katie, because you know me and you know that. Well, at least this bit of me you’re very clear on is that my faith is very strong. So, and I, and I absolutely love that and I hold that so dear. But the fact that you’re going to answer that question not with pandering to somebody who’s asking you the question, but answering it honestly again demonstrates your strength. 

Katie O’Hara:
So I respect it massively if somebody has, I don’t know whether you call it a guiding star, a north star, if there’s something that they can focus on that gives them comfort or support or love or whatever it is in their day to day life, they’re winning, in my opinion. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. 

Katie O’Hara:
And you know, whatever that is for people, what I found is I chipped and hurt people and actually by being a lot more open to really good friends that hadn’t walked away from me and allowing them in on my terms in terms of how I’m feeling and my thoughts, actually they found an understanding that they would never have had if I hadn’t have allowed that to happen. But again, it’s that belief that I can trust them, I can share something with them and they’re not going to exploit it, they’re not going to do anything with it, they’re just going to listen. I think that’s, you know, you can translate that into anything if you’ve got strong connection to it. 

Jeff Johnson:
You demonstrate a lot of courage, Katie. And I’m better for knowing you, that’s for sure. One last question and then I’ll let you go. Somebody out there is struggling with the same kind of thing. Maybe they’re feeling themselves come apart and they don’t know exactly what’s going on or just something is off and something is wrong. From a perspective of courage, what would you tell that? What kind of advice would you give them? 

Katie O’Hara:
So I would say through my personal experience, there is no silver bullet. So you’re not going to just drop onto, you know, that one thing that fixes it so, you know, I can talk about. I started off with like talking therapy. I left that because I thought, right, I’m done. I’ve done all this, I’m fit. And she left me with this little nugget of when you’re ready to let people into your life, you will realize that you’ve still got a lot of work to do. So she left it at that. She said, I’m going to respect you. So, you know, I’ve left the gap of two years, but I’ve gone back to her now because I’ve realized that I’m willing to open up and explore new things. I’ve tried cbt, you know, I’ve been on antidepressants. 

Katie O’Hara:
I’ve tried, I’ve tried all sorts of reading there is no silver bullet. I’ve drank too much as well, Jeff, you know that I’ve met too many blooming Haribos. You know, I put Weight on. I could say all these things. All I’d say is just take it day by day, and you have to find something that you can slowly start to open up. You know, there are some dark days, and I’ve had some very dark days where you just think there is no way out of this, but there absolutely is. And people will tell you how, what you should do. But all I’d say, you’ve just got to find that little seed. As I touched on earlier, what is your value? What are you trying to get to? And mine was happiness. And I’m still in search of true happiness. 

Katie O’Hara:
And I’m by far happier than what I ever, you know, what I ever was. The, the sort of thing that I latched onto was I didn’t trust people. So actually I chose to go to a psychotherapist, a counselor, who. I sat in a chair, you know, very. I didn’t, I didn’t lie on the couch. I sat on the chair a lot, but it was my safe space. She didn’t pass judgment. She didn’t put her own bias on it, her own perspective, because she wasn’t connected with me. And I think that was the sort of silver lining that she listened to me, she didn’t put judgment on me. She allowed me to be me and explain where I was, what I was struggling with. And that’s. That started up. It opened the floodgates. 

Katie O’Hara:
But I could compartmentalize it so I could go in that room for an hour, let it all go, and then walk out the door and be me. Put my mask back on and, and pretend I was fine. So I’d say just latch onto something. What are you trying to get to? And my value is happiness. And if I could be happy, I knew I could be the best mum to my girls, which is what I felt I wasn’t able to do. 

Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, wonderful. I love how you put it in the beginning of our talk, even how that bit of courage, just, even it comes being willing to change just a little tiny bit. And here you’ve done a tremendous amount of change. So, Katie O’Hara, my friend, very authentic and a woman of great courage. Thank you so much for being with us today. 

Katie O’Hara:
Thank you for having me. I’ve loved it. 

Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.