Beyond Tolerance: Dr. Everett Piper on Principled Leadership, Biblical Courage, and Societal Impact
In this episode of the podcast “Courageous Crossroads,” Jeff Johnson interviews Dr. Everett Piper, a prominent figure in Christian apologetics, author, and media commentator, known for his bestselling books such as “Not a Daycare” and “Grow Up.” The discussion delves into Piper’s definition of courage, contrasting it with the current cultural climate that often prioritizes tolerance over truth. He emphasizes the need for boldness and integrity in standing up for one’s beliefs, drawing on personal experiences and biblical examples, like John the Baptist and C.S. Lewis. Piper recounts his journey as president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, where he transformed the institution’s financial health through principled leadership, advocating that true conviction and courage can resonate across ideological divides. This episode highlights the importance of bravery in both personal and public life as a means to foster genuine dialogue and growth in society.
“Everett Piper’s ‘Not a Day Care’ diagnosed the root cause of our social ills: immaturity. More and more Americans just don’t want adult responsibilities. Now with ‘Grow Up!’, Piper prescribes the cure to the problems plaguing our country. Young Americans who want to lead happy and fulfilled lives should make it a national bestseller.” —Dennis Prager, nationally syndicated radio talk show host and bestselling author of ‘The Rational Bible’
Learn more at https://dreverettpiper.com/
Please contact Dr. Everett Piper via Lauren McCue at lauren.mccue@regnery.com
Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.
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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!
Full Transcript
Intro:
Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question. What’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And now, your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.
Jeff Johnson:
Hey, friends. Welcome to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads. I can’t wait for you to hear my next guest, another friend of mine, Dr. Everett Piper. Do you have anybody in your life that is really bold with their opinions unvarnished and they just come straight out with it? Well, I know that you’re going to enjoy Dr. Piper. He is very straightforward with his opinions and he’s got much to say on the topic of courage. And you are not going to miss where he stands on this topic. So enjoy.
Jeff Johnson:
Everett Piper joins us today. Dr. Everett Piper. Excuse me. And Everett and I got to know each other back in 2016, where we had the opportunity to study Christian apologetics together over at Oxford. I remember how impressed I was with Ever back then because I’m sitting in the class and they’re asking me questions like what’s your name? And where you’re from? And I even feel like I’m incapable of answering even those questions because of the venue that I’m at. But with the heavier apologetics questions, I just remember you being so eloquent and you really impressed me. So anyway, thanks for being with us today.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, honored to be with you, Jeff. It’s good to see you again. And I need you to say all those nice things again while my wife’s in the room so she can hear all that stuff. Okay? And the doctor, the. The doctor Piper, those days are gone. I’m not in the academy anymore. I’ve tried to get my wife to call me Dr. Piper. She won’t, so you don’t have to either.
Jeff Johnson:
Okay. Okay. Well, a couple things I know about you is that you’re an author. You’ve got your one best selling book, Not a Daycare, and you got another book. What’s your second book, Everett?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Grow Up. The first one is Not a Daycare.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The Devastating Consequences of Abandoning Truth.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s the full title. That was a national bestseller. And then the subsequent book, the sequel to that the publisher wanted me to write was Grow Up. Life Isn’t Safe, But It’s Good. So those two books.
Jeff Johnson:
Wonderful. And a third one in the works?
Dr. Everett Piper:
No, I write for the Washington Times now.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Two columns a week. And I enjoy writing. But honestly, Jeff, I’ve trained myself over the years of writing opinion pieces to communicate in 750 words. And it’s difficult for me to stretch a 750 word argument out to a 3,000 word chapter. So writing the books was tough because I’m thinking, well, I said what I wanted to say. I don’t need to blabber on for another 2,000 words. So it’s a different, as you know, it’s a different thing to be writing long rather than short and a book rather than opinion pieces.
Jeff Johnson:
Now we’ll put some of this in with the notes, with the show, but is that where the people can find you? Are there other places where people can bump into you?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Sure, probably. The, the site where you can find everything would be my website and that’s Dr. Everettpiper.com so it’s Dr. As.
Dr. Everett Piper:
In D R E V E-R-E-T-T-P-I-P-E-R.com.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’S my website. And on that you’ll find a link to my podcast which is called the Rebellion. And the tagline for that is in times of universal deceit, truth is the only rebellion left. Got about 700 episodes on that right now. And then you can get a link to my books. I have three books actually. Not a daycare, Grow up.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And the first book I ever wrote.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Was titled why I’m a Liberal and Other Conservative Ideas. I say that with a smile because you know who I am. And anytime I say something about being liberal, my friends think I just had a stroke. So. But my argument for those that might panic at this point in the, in your podcast is as a conservative, I’m more classically liberal than my left of center counterpart because I believe.
Dr. Everett Piper:
In liberty and liberation and freedom.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I believe in the liberal arts, free man, a free society, a free culture and a free church. And ironically today a conservative who understands.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Conserving the time tested truths of God.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Is more classically liberal than those that disagree with him. That’s my argument in that book. Well, so go to my website and get the podcast. You can find the books, you can find the archive for the Washington Times columns, and I’ll finish my shameless self.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Promotion and say if you want me.
Dr. Everett Piper:
To speak at your church or your political venue or whatnot, you can schedule me to speak there too.
Jeff Johnson:
And I would highlight and underline that for all of our listeners. You should definitely have Everett come and speak because you’ll gain a lot I was going to say I’m a Proverbs 27:17 guy. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. And I’m a better man because I know Everett Piper. So, anyway, onto this topic of courage a little bit, Everett, I see on your bio, which is fantastic, you’ve been on Tucker Carlson, the Adam Carolla Show, 700 Club. You’ve been on with Dana Perino, et cetera, et cetera, Eric Metaxas. I mean, there are a lot of people that you’ve rubbed elbows with that I would imagine took a little bit of courage for you to walk into those rooms. So I know that you’re a bold person. Did that take a little bit of a courage to walk in with those folks?
Jeff Johnson:
Everett?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Oh, well, sure. I’ve been blessed with the ability to fake it. I guess it’s one of my spiritual gifts. No, I remember the first time I was actually blessed to engage in media.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It was during the Indiana RFRA debate.
Dr. Everett Piper:
If people don’t remember that was the Restoring Religious Freedom act indiana where they were trying to preserve the definition marriage. And I received a phone call. I have no idea why, but from the Bill O’Reilly’s producer. And they said, would you like to.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Go on The Factor tonight?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Mr. O’Reilly would like to have you on the show. Well, obviously, as the president of a.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Small Christian college, you’re going to take.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Every opportunity you can to get the name of the university out there to the world because you need to raise money. So I said, sure. Well, he said, drive down to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Wesleyan University is north of Tulsa, and go to Salem Studios and they’ll put.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You in a studio.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They’ll put you in one of their small production studios and they’ll uplink you to the show. So I drove down to Tulsa as I was instructed. They put me in a small little office and they had a camera sitting there. They put an earpiece in my ear and they all of a sudden I heard New York City. Hello, Dr. Piper, this is the producer for the O’Reilly Factor. Bill will be on in about 60 seconds. Are you ready to go? So I said, sure. As I’m staring at the black eye of the camera, that’s all I can see is the camera lens.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You don’t see anything.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You don’t see who you’re talking to. So all of a sudden, Bill O’Reilly comes on, and you can imagine if.
Dr. Everett Piper:
People remember Bill O’Reilly’s temperament. I mean, he’s a Shark.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I mean, if. If anybody’s going to tear you apart, he probably will. So I was a little intimidated, and I just. God was gracious. He talked about some things that I felt comfortable with, you know, tackling the rainbow agenda, lgbtqia, the definition of marriage. I argued that we’re not defined by our desires. We’re the imago dei. We’re made in the image of God. We’re not the imago dog.
Dr. Everett Piper:
We’re not animals.
Dr. Everett Piper:
We’re not defined by our gut, our libid, our desires, our inclinations. We actually are better than that. We can rise above that, Mr. O’Reilly. We can be the imago dei. And he responded, and I think he was playing devil’s advocate, because I think he probably agreed with 95% of what I was saying.
Dr. Everett Piper:
But in his standard O’Reilly style, he.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Said, Dr. Piper, what about tolerance?
Dr. Everett Piper:
What about tolerance?
Dr. Everett Piper:
And by God’s grace, Jeff, I didn’t plan to say this. I don’t think I did. Anyway, I looked him in. Well, I was gonna say I looked him in the eye. I looked at the black eye of the camera while I’m listening to the shark. The shark is circling his. His prey. And I said, Mr. O’Reilly, did you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Send your wife and I tolerate you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Card on your anniversary? And there was a pregnant pause. He didn’t say anything. And I said, you probably didn’t, because.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Had you done so, it probably wouldn’t have ended very well.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Because, Mr. O’Reilly, tolerance is an inferior virtue. It says, I don’t care about you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I certainly don’t love you. I’ll tolerate you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Do what you want.
Dr. Everett Piper:
But Christian Love, Christian charity, Mr. O’Reilly, is a superior virtue.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Because where tolerance says, I don’t care, Christian love says, I care deeply enough.
Dr. Everett Piper:
To stand in your way and tell you to stop it. Stop it.
Dr. Everett Piper:
So, Mr. O’Reilly, I doubt you sent.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Your wife and I tolerate you card on your anniversary.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And I guess because God was gracious in giving me a few words that people joked with me afterwards after watching that episode of the O’Reilly Factor that they had never seen Bill O’Reilly stymied.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And speechless for at least a second.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Or two, I gained a little confidence. I got a spring in my step as the result of making a basket or two. You remember when you played ball, if you had a good game, you scored a couple points, grabbed a rebound, threw an elbow, gave somebody a bloody nose, if you will, all of a sudden, you start thinking you’re a basketball player.
Dr. Everett Piper:
So, yeah, is it intimidating sure. But get in.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I would tell your listeners, those that enjoy your podcast, get in the game. Get in the game.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Don’t sit on the sideline when somebody.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Gives you the ball. Act like you know what you’re doing with it, even if you don’t, you might get blessed with a point or.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Two, a rebound or two, and you’ll.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Gain confidence as you do so and you’ll be a more productive player.
Jeff Johnson:
We could end the podcast right here, Everett, with that. We’re not going to. I’m going to ask you a lot more questions, but that’s what a beautiful picture of courage right there. Just stepping out in faith and just doing it and. Yeah. And being bold. Being bold. Let me ask you, I want to get down to the question here in a minute. Not just yet, but what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And I’ll ask you that here in a second, but beforehand I want to calibrate your idea of courage a little bit more. That story does a lot of it. But let me just ask you directly, what does courage mean to you? When you hear that word or somebody says that to you, what do you think?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is doing what you don’t want to do. I’ve had people ask me to take jobs. I didn’t want to take them.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I did not want to be a college president.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I turned it down. The challenge at Oklahoma Wesleyan was great. The institution was bankrupt. They were ready to close it down. I’m 42 year old kid at the time. It’s the last thing I want to do is be responsible for shutting this place down. But I took it primarily because my wife forced me to. But no, she looked, she shook.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Her finger in my face after I.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Turned it down and she said, it’s about time you started doing something on the basis of faith rather than logic. You call them back and tell them we’re coming. Maybe that’s courage. Or when you get a phone call from Bill O’Reilly and you don’t have a clue how to engage with that black eye on the lens of the camera, but you do it anyway because it’s the right thing to do. Or when somebody says, do you want the job? You say, no, I don’t want the job, but I’m willing to do it. There’s a difference between wanting it and being willing to do it. Or when you inherit a challenge like I did at Oklahoma Wesleyan University, where The place is 12 months away from closure and you have to decide what are you going to do about it in that case?
Dr. Everett Piper:
I decided to run into the face of the storm.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I’m not going to run away from it.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I’m going to wave the banner of the truth of Christ and the truth of Scripture. And if I win, waving that banner, great, that’s God’s grace. But if I lose waving that banner, who cares? It’s the right thing to do. I’ll go down fighting.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s my idea of courage.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Often it’s doing things that you didn’t want to do because it’s just the right thing to do. Fighting the battle, even though you don’t want to be in it. Tackling the storm even though you like to tack the other way and sail opposite direction. It’s important to fight. First Corinthians 15:38 or 58, is it? Be steadfast and courageous. Always abounding in the work of the Lord. Be steadfast, buckle down, do it even though you don’t want to. To me, that’s courage.
Jeff Johnson:
Yeah. Oh, well put. Well put.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I.
Jeff Johnson:
So you mentioned in the beginning that you’re more on the conservative side of the coin. I am as well. You and I share that together, and I don’t want to. I love all the different belief systems, you know, and God created every single one of us, but that is where I come down. So I don’t want to delve into the politics at all, but I want to ask a question of courage this way. Do you feel like our country, do you feel like the United States is exemplified by courage right now, or do you feel like courage is lacking? I’m not going to say is our country 5% courageous, 95% courageous, or. But do you know what I mean?
Dr. Everett Piper:
I do. I don’t know if this is the right answer, but let me tell you a quick story that will. Will give you my answer. My answer is no. I don’t think that courage is a primary virtue right now. I think. Excuse me. I think capitulation, conversation, compromise the collective rather than the individual. I think all of those things seem to be the definition of our culture right now. As opposed to courageous individualism and being willing to fight the good fight for Christ in his kingdom because it’s just the right thing to do. And personal victory isn’t the point. Being virtuous and principled is the battle’s, the Lord’s. He doesn’t have to give me a victory. I’m not a health, wealth and prosperity guy where I can name it, claim it. I don’t that’s not my theology. God doesn’t have to give me victory.
Dr. Everett Piper:
He can give it to me if he chooses to.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It’s my responsibility to play the game. It’s my responsibility to be obedient. It’s my responsibility to be steadfast and courageous. Not. I’m going to be aggressive on your show. Some people like what I say and some people won’t. And I’m at the point I don’t care.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I’m not going to just say things.
Dr. Everett Piper:
To make people feel comfortable. I’m going to express conviction about the things that matter to me. And I think people respect that. I’ve had a lot of people like Adam Carolla. Adam Carolla is a. He’s a. Well, he’s an atheist. And I don’t enjoy his humor. I find it rather debauched, quite frankly. But I went on Adam Carolla’s show because I was invited. So I went on there, and for an hour and a half, Adam Carolla’s doing his shtick and, you know, raunchy humor and all this kind of stuff. And then he brings me on in the last half hour. And I encourage people, if you google, Everett Piper, Adam Corolla, I have no responsibility for the first hour and.
Jeff Johnson:
A half, it was not endorsed by you, okay?
Dr. Everett Piper:
But the last half hour, he asked.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Me about the not a daycare story. When I confronted my students at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and said, look, this is a university.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It’s not a daycare.
Dr. Everett Piper:
If you expect me to coddle you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And have a conversation with you rather than to confront you and challenge you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And build your character, challenge you to.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Be a person of courage rather than compromise. If you expect me to treat you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That way, go someplace else. I want you to grow up. I don’t want you to be comfortable in your adolescence. I want you to gain us to. To grow a spine to fight the good fight. And again, I said, this is a university, not a daycare. And that went viral. Everybody thought that was.
Dr. Everett Piper:
No.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The college president in northeast Oklahoma called his students snowflakes and told them to grow up. So Adam Carolla, Dave Rubin, ABC News, NBC. Today, everybody wanted to talk to this college president in northeast Oklahoma who dared to say that to his students. And you know what?
Dr. Everett Piper:
95 of the people, and I know.
Dr. Everett Piper:
This because we did the analytics on the clicks and the comments, we knew about three and a half million people clicked on that story. Initially, 95+ agreed with me, said, good for you. Kudos to you. Atheists were emailing me and saying I don’t agree with your religion and I don’t agree with your politics, but on.
Dr. Everett Piper:
This issue, thank you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Kudos to you. It needed to be said. Carry on. So what characterizes our culture well, why did I do the not a daycare commentary? I was, I was, and I continue.
Dr. Everett Piper:
To be very frustrated with this attitude.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Of comfort, coddling, capitulation, compromise rather than conviction. There are some things worth disagreeing over. I’ve said this as a leader, as a. If you find yourself a friend to everyone and an enemy to none, you’re.
Dr. Everett Piper:
A leader of no one.
Jeff Johnson:
Yeah.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I’m not saying you need to go.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Out and be an enemy on purpose.
Dr. Everett Piper:
But there’s some things that are just wrong. Just wrong.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Stealing someone’s property is wrong. Lying to people in the political arena or otherwise, it’s evil. It’s wrong.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I would argue grooming children at the.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Youngest ages, sexualizing them rather than allowing.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Them to flourish in their innocence and protecting that innocence because it’s our God given responsibility as parents and adults to do so. I would argue there’s certain things that are evil and wrong. I would argue that killing children minutes before they’re born out of convenience rather than the legitimate health concerns of the mom. I would argue that’s evil and wrong. And I’m going to say so. And will everybody agree with me?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Absolutely not.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And I don’t think they’ll. I know you don’t want to get.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Into politics, Jeff, but nothing I just said is political.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Nothing I just said is political. It’s moral, it’s ethical. Is it right or is it wrong?
Jeff Johnson:
Yeah.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Now if I got into Democrat, Republican, independent, Green Party, Republican Party, now we’re into politics.
Dr. Everett Piper:
But nothing I just said should be debatable.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Yeah, political, because it’s not political. What I just said is biblical difference.
Jeff Johnson:
Well, I asked you the question, was courage predominant in the United States today? Was it lacking? Where was it on the continuum? And you said that it was lacking. And the way that you just expressed that is because people are capitulating as opposed to standing up for things that they believe in. I’m reminded of, again, it’s back to I don’t have to agree with everybody and everybody doesn’t have to agree with me. I assume you feel the same way. You know, your opinions are your opinions for good reason, but you recognize that other people have different ones. Abraham Lincoln, I think, said he never learned anything from anybody that he agreed with.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Right.
Jeff Johnson:
And so I think that, I think that made, I think that was probably his call for rich and engaging debate. And then let us get to the right answer by doing that. And that, to me, feels like the essence of courage. Be able to stand up for what you believe in, even if you believe something that’s 180 degrees different than I am. But let’s be able to talk about it.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You know, you started out by saying, as iron sharpens iron, let one man sharpen another. Absolutely. If.
Dr. Everett Piper:
If I find you’re agreeing with me.
Dr. Everett Piper:
All the time, I’m going to lose respect for you rather than gain respect for you because you’re not being honest. Nobody agrees with another person all the time. There’s friends, family members, brothers and sisters.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Bosses and subordinates should challenge one another to perform better. A coach, the best coach I ever.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Had, told me to my face every year before the season started. I am not your friend. I am not your friend. I’m your coach. And parents would do well to listen to that. I would argue you’re not your kid’s best friend. You are your kid’s mom and dad. Act like it. So there’s things like this that I believe strongly. Some people disagree with me, but in our culture, they.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Tolerance. Let’s go back tolerance.
Dr. Everett Piper:
If tolerance is your ultimate virtue and.
Dr. Everett Piper:
All you’re doing is tolerating other people.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And you’ll just, oh, well, you know, it doesn’t matter what you believe, as.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Long as it works for you, I’ll tolerate you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s a very vanilla culture.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It’s a culture without flavor.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It’s a culture without any spice. And I said when I was trying to bring Oklahoma Wesleyan out of its bankruptcy, we’re not going to sell vanilla ice cream. People can buy vanilla ice cream on any street corner if that’s what you want.
Dr. Everett Piper:
There’s a lot of it out there. Go buy it. But we’re going to sell a specific and bold flavor.
Dr. Everett Piper:
We’re going to sell an institution that’s classically grounded in the liberal arts and grounded in Christian orthodoxy, the primacy of.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Christ, the priority of scripture, the pursuit.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Of truth, and the practice of wisdom. If you want that, come get it. If you don’t, it’s the wrong place. It’s the wrong place for you to do your shopping. And did I lose some customers because they didn’t want to buy that flavor?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Sure. But you’re a businessman. You know that when you have a.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Distinct product that’s exceptional, nobody else is offering it. And if you provide it with excellence, you’re going to win. Yeah, you’re going to win. So Yeah, I believe in being a person of conviction, clarity, and I think the elevation of tolerance over truth in our culture right now has created a very soft culture that lacks spine and does lack courage.
Jeff Johnson:
Yeah.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The argument that it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as it works for you is vacuous nonsense because you’re.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Basically saying what worked for Hitler and.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Pol Pot and Mussolini and Chavez and all the despots of history doesn’t matter because it worked for them.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, nobody really believes that. Come on.
Jeff Johnson:
That’s right.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Come on. That’s nonsense.
Jeff Johnson:
So, yeah, the debate is good. And courage is the. Feels like courage might be the engine that it runs on, you know, that good debate being people being able to stand up for what they believe. In another question, who’s the most courageous person you know and why? Could be contemporary. Could be somebody in history who would come.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Oh boy. The first person biblical character that comes to mind would be John the Baptist. John the Baptist had conviction.
Dr. Everett Piper:
He confronted the king and told him to quit having an affair and he.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Lost his head for doing so. That’s courage.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And Jesus honored him.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Jesus honored him as one of the. Didn’t he say he was the greatest of all prophets?
Jeff Johnson:
Yeah, all right.
Dr. Everett Piper:
He confronted a moral issue. He didn’t go to the wedding per se. He didn’t go to the king’s wedding. He told the king to knock it off. Yeah, told the king to knock it off. You shouldn’t be having an affair with your sister in law. Okay. He lost his head.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s courage.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Christ honored him. He was there at the transfiguration. So pretty impressive credentials, contemporary. I’ve always admired C.S.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Lewis because he had the courage to.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Look the academy in the eye and say, you’re wrong. I was there. I was one of you. I was a skeptic, I was an atheist, I was an agnostic. But he stepped in the middle of the arrogance of the ivory tower and said, no, you’re wrong. And being part of the academic world, I know what ridicule you suffer for daring. Daring to take on the smart folks, daring to challenge the smarter than those and saying, do you realize what you just said? That bit about not being able tolerate my intolerance, That’s a self refuting claim. You look like a dog chasing its tail. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound right now? Or that bit about hating hateful people? How’s that one work? You hateful people. Well, doesn’t that mean you’re pointing fingers back at yourself?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Or I’m sure That nothing is sure or I’m absolutely confident. There are no absolutes.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I mean, this is the ivory tower. This is the arrogance of the academy.
Dr. Everett Piper:
This is post modernity run amok. And CS Lewis stepped into that 50, 60 years ago and said, this is crazy talk. So I admire his courage for doing that.
Dr. Everett Piper:
So I think of John the Baptist in the Bible.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I think of C.S. Lewis as a Christian apologist who demonstrated courage.
Dr. Everett Piper:
John the Baptist, to the point of losing his head.
Dr. Everett Piper:
CS Lewis, at the risk of losing his career.
Jeff Johnson:
One more question before I get to the. To the point of it, and ask you what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done? And that question is, how important is courage in everyday life? Because my. My belief is, and I’ve said it on this podcast before, I think I could ask anybody, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve done today? And people could answer that question. Do you agree with that? How important is courage in everyday life?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, in our culture today, I don’t think there’s a. I don’t think there’s.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Any moment in time where all.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Any of us could go through a.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Day at work or a day on.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Vacation, a day in church where we can rest on our laurels. I really don’t think we live in a culture that is homogeneous any longer, where it’s just assumed that we have a common bond of cultural glue that holds us together in unity. Those days are gone. So can we make it through any given day just resting? It’s kind of the point of my second book, Grow Up. Life isn’t safe, but it’s good. In that book, I used A story from C.S. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia, where, if you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Remember the lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe, the children enter through the portal into Narnia. They don’t know where they are.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They’re trying to figure out what this Narnia place is all about.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They stumble across Mr. And Mrs. Beaver.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Down by the riverbank. And they’re in the beaver den. And Mr. Beaver starts telling the children.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That the rumor is that Aslan is on the loose.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Children don’t know who Aslan is. So they asked Mr. Beaver, who’s that?
Dr. Everett Piper:
He said, oh, well, Aslan. He’s the son of the emperor behind.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Beyond the Great Sea. He’s the great lion Aslan.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And it’s rumored that he has come.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Back and that winter will melt away and spring will bloom anew and the White Witch will be dethroned. The children are still confused, and they’re very scared. A lion. And one of the kids, I can’t.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Remember which, looks at Mr. Beaver and.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Says, Is Aslan safe? And Mr. Beaver guffaws. He says, well, Aslan’s safe. Of course not.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Of course not.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Aslan isn’t safe, but he’s good. And I would argue that’ll preach. The great lion of the Ivory Tower isn’t supposed to be safe, but it’s good.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The great lion of the Church, the body of Christ, isn’t supposed to be.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Safe, but it’s good. The great lion of our Constitution, of the Declaration of Independence, of civil. Civil liberties and civil rights, none of.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’S supposed to be safe, but it’s all good.
Dr. Everett Piper:
There’s a difference between safety and goodness. And adults. People with courage and spine would much prefer the good rather than the safe.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s courage.
Dr. Everett Piper:
So, yeah, I think I got off track. I don’t even remember what your question was, Jeff, but hopefully I gave you something of value.
Jeff Johnson:
The question was about every day, how valuable is courage? Is it necessary in everyday life? And you’ve answered the question, Everett. An emphatic yes. Yeah, you gave that answer very clear. Let me come down to the point now. The question, Everett Piper, what’s the most courageous thing you’ve ever done?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, I’ll go back to why I came to Oklahoma Wesleyan University and some people. This is kind of an odd story, but I inevitably find that people resonate with it because it involves a wife scolding her disobedient husband, and it involves the testimony of a young 10 year old. So I was 41, 42 years old. I just graduated from Michigan State university with my PhD. I was asked by the search consultant for Oklahoma Wesleyan University’s presidential search if I was interested in throwing my name in the mix. And I thought, well, I just got this brand new PhD and I don’t know if I want to be a.
Dr. Everett Piper:
College president or not, but maybe I.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Should go down, interview and learn what it’s all about, what the whole process is like. Probably won’t get the job anyway, but maybe it’ll set me up for future opportunities. I went down to Oklahoma Wesleyan with that attitude, my wife with me. The place was a disaster. I thought, this last place I want to be president of.
Dr. Everett Piper:
We flew home.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I called the search committee chair and I said, no, thank you, I’m not interested. By that time, they’d already offered it, by the way, I said, no, thank you, I’m not interested. I went to bed and slept like a baby. Dodged that bullet. Okay. I woke up early the next morning. Our children are young. At the time we had a 7 year old and a 10 year old, both boys. And our 10 year old has always.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Been a huge man.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Right now he’s 656 6, £270. Even as a 10 year old he was 6 4, £250. I’m taking saturated. But anyway, he’s always been a big kid. And he crawled into bed with me.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That next morning after I’d turned this.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Job down, after I had run away. And I leaned over because he was aware that were in the interview process. And I said to him, with my arm around my 10 year old boy, I said, seth, just wanted you to know we called Oklahoma last night and I told him we’re not coming. And my 10 year old son started crying and then he started bawling a convulsive cry, one of those that was kind of even shaking the bed. And my wife wasn’t there, I didn’t know where she was. She had stepped out. And I’m having this conversation with my son and I calmed him down with my arm around him and I said, seth, what’s wrong? And this was his direct quote. He said, dad, I’ve been praying and praying so hard about this and I was so convinced it was the Lord’s will.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And now I don’t feel so smart anymore. And I’m thinking, you are the worst.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Father ever on the face of the earth.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You broke this poor boy’s faith. And I’m trying to figure out what to say to him. And I look up and standing in the doorway is my wife. I didn’t know she was there, but she had overheard the whole thing. And she looked at me, as I’ve already told you, raised her finger, shook it in my face and said, it’s about time you started doing something on the basis of faith rather than logic. You call them back and tell them we’re coming. So I called the search chair back and I said, I don’t know if.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You want a guy that flip flops yes today and no tomorrow and then.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Yes again, but if you want us, we’ll come. Well, now I know that they probably couldn’t have found anybody else dumb enough to take the job, so they took.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Us, went down.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Now, ironically enough, you might say that’s not a storage of a story of courage because you were trying to get out of it. But I guess the moral of the story is I did do it, even.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Under duress, even under force.
Dr. Everett Piper:
But I. Okay, we’re in the mess right now. So suck it up, fake it. Act like you know what you’re doing. Because if people don’t see confidence in.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You, if they don’t see courage in.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The way you’re doing your job on a daily basis, you’re going to guarantee this place is going to close. So, I don’t know, maybe the most courageous thing I ever did was listen to my wife and be willing to admit I was wrong. Eat a spoonful of humility, call the search chair back and say, I know I’m an idiot, and you certainly haven’t seen a guy that demonstrates conviction and clarity and consistency, but if you want me, I’ll come. And then when we got there.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Fight, fight.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You didn’t want to be there.
Dr. Everett Piper:
You don’t want to be there.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Think my land. Why, Lord, why didn’t you pick somebody else for this mess? But be willing to give it your all and be willing to go down. I’ve said this about leadership since then. If you’re not willing to lose it all, you’re never going to win. If you’re not willing to lose it all, you’re never going to win.
Jeff Johnson:
That’s an inspiring story, Everett. I’m sitting here thinking some of the qualities of courage is obviously humility. And right along with that, you know, being able to squelch your pride or being able to hold your pride at bay. And I think that story that you tell characterizes that so very well that’s, you know, to be able to humble your stuff self enough in a moment to remain teachable and learn something from people that care so much for you and then take that next step. You know, I think that’s a beautiful way to put it. Are you, in retrospect, are you. Do you see fruits of the decision?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Oh, Jeff, we. You’re a businessman. You’ll understand this ratio. When I took over Oklahoma Wesleyan, their.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Annual budget was 8.9 million.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They’re trying to run an entire university on 8.9 million. This was 2001, so, okay, but their debt was 7.6. So I’ve got a business, if you.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Will, that has an. A predicted revenue stream.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They weren’t hitting it. They were always under budget or they were always operating in the red, but their budget was 8.9 and it’s a $7.6 million debt. So revenue, 8.9 debt, 7.6. This is not a good business model. When after being there for 17 years, we increased the net assets from 11 million to 40 million, we paid our debt down to zero. We built a new library, a new school of business, three new dormitories, a new gymnasium, and renovated a ton of other stuff, all debt free, didn’t borrow a dime. Revenue tripled per year. Enrollment almost tripled per year. And I was blessed to be able to hand the baton off to my successor. Another lesson of leadership, always leave when.
Dr. Everett Piper:
They want more of you, not less.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Hand the baton when you’re in full.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Stride, not when you’re stumbling.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Give your successor a blessing, not a curse. I believe we did that.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I handed off the institution with zero debt.
Dr. Everett Piper:
We didn’t owe anybody a dime. We had cash reserves of about 9 or 10 million. We built all those buildings debt free. And I opened my big mouth in the midst of Bill O’Reilly and other fact, you know, factors, no pun intended. And God blessed us with a national platform where people like Adam Carolla and Dave Rubin and NBC Today cared about what were saying. Maybe I’ll. I know you want to close, but yeah, when I did the Adam Carolla show and the Dave Rubin Show, I, God just gave me a couple tidbits of affirmation that gave me a lot more courage and confidence to keep at it. Keep in mind, I was on this Adam Carolla Show. He doesn’t agree with anything I believe, but I talked to him about a biblical worldview.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Quite frankly, he wanted to know why I said what I said about not a daycare. And he wanted to know why it was working. And I said, Mr. Carolla, it’s because we believe in the truth of Christ and the truth of Scripture. We believe in the primacy of Christ. Jesus is the son of God, the priority of scripture, the Bible is the word of God, the pursuit of truth. Truth is given by God. It isn’t made up by you. Mr. Carolla, I don’t give away degrees.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And opinions at my institution.
Dr. Everett Piper:
I expect the students to actually learn something. They get a diploma that represents they learned something in their major. And Mr. Carolla, after all those things, I expect my students to practice wisdom. Christ, scripture, truth, wisdom. That’s what the academy is supposed to be about. Mr. Carolla, I said, Mr. Carolla, C.S.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Lewis said that if there is no.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Measuring rod outside of those things being measured, you can do no measuring. That’s the problem with our culture today. We’re measuring ourselves by our personal opinions. We better measure ourselves by ourselves. It’s radical narcissism. We gaze in the pool and we.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Think that’s the end all and be.
Dr. Everett Piper:
All of education, our self reflection. I said, that’s Garbage. That’s nonsense. You know what Mr. Carolla said to me in closing the program?
Dr. Everett Piper:
Thank you, Dr. Piper.
Dr. Everett Piper:
What the world needs today is more of this wisdom. I had an atheist responding that way.
Dr. Everett Piper:
To a biblical worldview.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And then when I went on the Dave Rubin show and Dave Rubin, if people don’t know, he’s conservative. Yes, but he isn’t sexually. Dave Rubin is a married homosexual. Okay? He used to be part of the radical left, the. The Young Turks, but he’s converted to conservatism and everything but his sexual life. I’m on his show for an hour. Guess what I talked about. The primacy of Christ, the priority of Scripture, the pursuit of truth, and the practice of wisdom.
Jeff Johnson:
Right.
Dr. Everett Piper:
The need for a measuring rod outside of those things being measured.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Mr. Rubin.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And G.K. Chesterton said, if you get.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Rid of the big laws of God, you don’t have liberty. You’re going to have thousands and thousands of little laws that rush in to fill the vacuum.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Mr. Rubin.
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s where we are in our culture today. It’s radical narcissism. We’re measuring ourselves by ourselves. We’re gazing in the pool with narcissistic confidence, and we’re falling in and we’re drowning.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Do you know what Mr. Rubin said.
Dr. Everett Piper:
As I was driving back to LAX to fly back to Oklahoma? He tweeted. He tweeted it out.
Dr. Everett Piper:
He said, if more college presidents said.
Dr. Everett Piper:
What this guy just said, we’d be a freer, braver, and Wiser Nation.
Dr. Everett Piper:
And Mr. Rubin doesn’t agree with me.
Dr. Everett Piper:
On a lot, but the power and the conviction of believing in something bigger than myself and bigger than you, I would argue is attractive to everybody.
Jeff Johnson:
Well said, Everett. Well said. The courage to stand by your convictions, the courage to stand in the truth and to speak that out loud, and the affirmation of people seeing that and reflecting it back to you, even if their ethos is a little bit different than yours, they recognize the truth still. So that’s wonderful, Everett. Thank you so much for being on the show today. I want. I don’t want it to end here. I want to ask you 19 more questions. But we’re going to end it here, and I’m just going to hope to have you back someday. So thank you so much, Everett. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your friendship, and I appreciate your wisdom and your knowledge and your openness with our audience. Thanks for being here.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Oh, honored to see you again. Great to see you again.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Blessings.
Outro:
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you’d like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous Us? Send us an email at info@crossroadsapologetics.com or info@crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you’ve ever done.
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